Gun Safe advice


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Greywolf
July 29, 2007, 04:20 PM
OK, finally deciding to spend some $$ on a decent safe after years of cramming my expensive (and some NFA weapons) guns into a cheapo $150 sheetmetal safe.

Not wanting to spend a huge amount, I checked out Sam's and found this:

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?catg=535&item=322661&prDeTab=2&pCatg=6983#A

It is actually $600 if I pick it up, plus tax of course (7%). I suppose I can find a friend or two to help me move it - I have a Suburban LT so I can fit it in the back of it, get it home, put it on a dolly, and move it inside.

Decent deal, or are there better deals out there?

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CTPistol
July 29, 2007, 04:24 PM
take a good look around and put thought into placement, size, etc..that you think you will need for your lifetime...these things are a bear to move around! buy bigger than you think you might need now...as you will need it later.

I settled on this one and am very happy with it. Prices are better than advertised also..

http://www.libertysafe.com/safe_Lincoln.lasso

GRB
July 29, 2007, 04:28 PM
Well, if I ever get enough money saved up, I'd like to buy a Cannon Safe. The reasons being: they make a good safe, and they have an absolutely outstanding warranty, a ZERO COST warranty. Go to: http://www.cannonsafe.com/ and check out their safes. Then go back to their home page, and click on their link for warranty. Outstanding.

These were once available at Cabelas.

All the best,
Glenn B

Buck Nekkid
July 29, 2007, 04:32 PM
If you can wait a little while then I'd check back with Sam's/Wal-Mart before Christmas. I bought a Winchester safe for under $500 a couple of years back. It has the digital key pad and the banker's spoked lever. VERY nice!

karz10
July 29, 2007, 04:38 PM
I was considering the same one, picking it up local as you mention. I'm not ready to buy one yet. I wanted it for documents, valubles, and eventually some long guns and a couple handguns, as it is now, I only have one firearm, a HG, which follows me around, on my person or in the closest handgun safe, so was wanting to use this as a multi purpose, also it fits perfectly in the designated space I have for a safe.

To me, it was the best overall value in the $400-$600 price range, offering more versatility and space, as well as limited fire protection, compared to the $400-$500 options in other retail stores.

There are some $800ish things out there that may or may not be better, depending on who you talk to.

Be warned though, many of the people on this board that are qualified to respond to you, i.e. safe dealers etc., will likely point out that what you're looking at is an RSC, or residential security container, and that gun safes should be for guns, and not other things, and you should get a small fire safe for other items, and a gun safe for guns. And apparently gun safes aren't really safes unless there about a ton or so in weight and cost a few thousand dollars, and even then, you don't always get what you pay for, and there's only a few decent brands of safes that cost a few thousand to several thousand dollars, etc., at least that's what I've gathered every time this has been brought up.

Someone else started a thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=255836&highlight=karz+safe

...where on post 9, I asked what someone in my position should do, and asked for feedback after a detailed explanation, including a link to that sam's club RSC, and I was taken apart by various safe experts, and they never did choose to answer my follow up questions, after I took their posts seriously and tried to understand where they were coming from, I was written off as amusing them w/ my rationalizations...

Maybe you'll have better luck w/ the high roaders in this regard. I hope you do.

Regards,

Karz

PS I wouldn't be surpised if they took special concern over you're putting NFA items in such a cheap RSC, and would much prefer you spend more money than me even...

Ala Dan
July 29, 2007, 04:46 PM
I'm not a RSC expert by any stretch, but I do sell both Liberty and Browning
RSC's. I chose a Colonial Series Liberty RSC for my own personal use; even
though I know that better ones exist. My may concern is keeping my 3 year
old grand-daughter, and "the smash and grab crowd" out. With the rest of
my home security equipment in place; I think I have covered the bases~! ;):D

never_retreat
July 29, 2007, 05:17 PM
Just remember most of those types of big box store safes are only going to be slightly better than the steel gun lockers.:banghead: I have a steel gun cabinet and a safe. The safe is not an ultra high security type, but is better built than those sentry type ones in wally world. It just happens to be twice as old as me and they were made a lot stronger back than. Plus I've welded on my own reinforcing in areas that need it, all on the inside.:evil:

Im283
July 29, 2007, 06:35 PM
Winchester Gun Safe - 60 x 30 x 22

What is says on top of the ad for the link you provided.

The gun safe snobs here will look down on you as has been mentioned already. If it was an RSC then that is what it would say. Way better than a gun locker.

Looks like a nice one to me. I especially like the keypad as oppossed to a dial. Probably has three bolt holes inside on the bottom. Take advantage of them and bolt it down. Don't forget to get some kind of de-humidifier for it as well.

Hunter0924
July 29, 2007, 06:35 PM
The points to consider in a safe is first of all the actual security of the build, as well as fire protection, size, layout, warranty, and lock quality.
I believe the safe you linked would be a good choice but I do not know the brand. Whatever you go for look for the S&G lock as the other options.
I chose the Liberty safe and she is a solid one.

a1abdj
July 29, 2007, 06:59 PM
Decent deal, or are there better deals out there?

For what it is, it's one of the better deals out there. Just remember that it's only a small step above the sheet metal cabinet you've been using. Just because it looks like a bank safe, doesn't mean it will protect like a bank safe.

outstanding warranty, a ZERO COST warranty

Much of what this warranty covers is also covered by your homeowners or renters policy. These manufacturers know this, and actually replace only a small fraction of the burglarized and burned safes themselves.

In the event of a mechanical failure, which isn't rare in the world of gun safes, this warranty can come in handy. I opened up a Liberty with a fired relocker the other day. $300 to drill it, and $200 to deliver the replacement safe. Liberty paid for the new safe, and the $500 in associated expenses. Of course if gun safes were built better, these instances would be more rare.

Be warned though, many of the people on this board that are qualified to respond to you, i.e. safe dealers etc., will likely point out that what you're looking at is an RSC, or residential security container, and that gun safes should be for guns, and not other things, and you should get a small fire safe for other items, and a gun safe for guns. And apparently gun safes aren't really safes unless there about a ton or so in weight and cost a few thousand dollars, and even then, you don't always get what you pay for, and there's only a few decent brands of safes that cost a few thousand to several thousand dollars, etc., at least that's what I've gathered every time this has been brought up.

I'm glad that's what you've gotten out of everything that has been said. I couldn't have said it much better myself. The best defense is a good offence. Since you're looking to protect something valuable to you, you want to make sure not setting yourself up for disaster.

...where on post 9, I asked what someone in my position should do, and asked for feedback after a detailed explanation, including a link to that sam's club RSC, and I was taken apart by various safe experts, and they never did choose to answer my follow up questions, after I took their posts seriously and tried to understand where they were coming from, I was written off as amusing them w/ my rationalizations...

I never wrote you off. I'm assuming that post left the first page and I missed your questions. I'm always willing to help forum members whether it's here in the forum, or by private message or e-mail. It doesn't even matter if they are buying the safe from me or not. If you still have questions, I'd be happy to assist in any way I can.

What is says on top of the ad for the link you provided.

The gun safe snobs here will look down on you as has been mentioned already. If it was an RSC then that is what it would say. Way better than a gun locker.

A moped isn't a motorcycle, it's a motorized bicycle. A daisy isn't a firearm, it's a bb gun. A 12 gauge box isn't a safe, it's a tin can with a lock on it. It doesn't matter what the ad says.

joplinsks
July 29, 2007, 07:28 PM
I've read quite a few positive reviews here and there about the Winchester gun safe at Sam's. Most folks say it's the best gun safe deal going right now.

karz10
July 29, 2007, 07:44 PM
I never wrote you off. Well, thank you, I wasn't directing that at you personally, I replied to your post w/ additional questions http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3122713&postcount=12 and attempting to clarify my then line of thought.

While I did not apparently get a response from you to those questions, I wasn't taking issue w/ that, as much as I was pointing out the negative comments that followed about my 'rationalizations' from other posters... comments without anything positive to suggest in return, I might add... therefore my comments today, warning the OP of the response I got in the other thread...

Karz

ctdonath
July 29, 2007, 08:26 PM
One notable tidbit I've heard is to get the "fireproof" safes - not so much as against fire, but as against Sawzall type cutters. (On a related note, whatever you get, keep your Sawzall locked up for the same reason.)

I recently concluded I should get the dang biggest "safe" I can afford, to make it as heavy as possible and thus less likely to be taken whole. Piling ammo inside should help that further. (This in consideration related to where I will most likely put it.)

GerryM
July 29, 2007, 08:33 PM
I have a Fort Knox and love it, but would get the size up if I had it to do again... leave room to expand and to have items other than firearms in it.

Yosemite**Sam
July 30, 2007, 07:10 AM
alabdj Quote

"A moped isn't a motorcycle, it's a motorized bicycle. A daisy isn't a firearm, it's a bb gun. A 12 gauge box isn't a safe, it's a tin can with a lock on it. It doesn't matter what the ad says."

You might have to change your saying here. Daisy made a few .22 caliber rifles not too long ago. They were plastic with a metal insert barrel.

zoom6zoom
July 30, 2007, 05:48 PM
A daisy isn't a firearm, it's a bb gun.

Not to stray off topic, but some states consider it one.

But you're right, a soup can with a lock isn't a safe.

Mainsail
July 30, 2007, 06:28 PM
I got this small (http://www.directsafes.com/gun-safe.cfm?ProductID=529)safe for $465 delivered to my door on a truck. Since I only have three long guns and five handguns, it's the perfect size for my needs. I am impressed with the quality. This model has the electronic keypad lock, but in the event one of those Chinese pulse bombs renders it inoperable, it comes with an emergency key override.
Ratings:
Fire Rating: 1-hour class 350
Burglary Rating: 1/4" steel and hardplate
Media Rating: Not rated for media
Interior Dimensions
Interior Height: 56"
Interior Width: 15 1/4"
Interior Depth: 12 1/2"
Cubic Feet: 6.1 cu. ft.
Shelves:
Exterior Dimensions
Exterior Height: 59 1/8"
Exterior Width: 17 1/2"
Exterior Depth: 17 3/4"
Frontal Door Swing:
Lateral Door Swing:
Weight: 295 lbs.

http://www.directsafes.com/images/MS-5917-Open-500.jpg

Stevie-Ray
July 30, 2007, 07:22 PM
I highly recommend the Sam's Club Granite Security Safes. Just got mine a few weeks ago for ~$575. It's one HEAVY SUCKER! I think around 600 lbs. Moving it with 2 other guys (actually 1 since the other was drunk:banghead:) was a chore not to be believed! I was doing the pulling on the reefer dolly and damn near got killed. Get plenty of help.:uhoh: I'm very satisfied with mine.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/GitchiManitou/100_0394.jpg?t=1185833476

Eyesac
July 30, 2007, 07:26 PM
I would suggest checking with your local safe dealer, I would never suggest that for any other reason other than I was shopping around the internet (and was very dicouraged) and on my lunch break I went to a couple of safe dealers locally and they were way cheaper than what I found on-line (and for AMSEC). At least shop em...

.45&TKD
July 30, 2007, 10:08 PM
I also need to buy a safe.

Most of the one's I see have electronic locks.

I would be concerned that if there were an EMP (worst case scenario), I would then be unable to open an electronic lock safe, when I need to most.

What do yous guys think? Would I have to pay more for a conventional lock and is it worth it? What's a good one with a conventional combination lock?

a1abdj
July 31, 2007, 01:57 PM
I would suggest checking with your local safe dealer, I would never suggest that for any other reason other than I was shopping around the internet (and was very dicouraged) and on my lunch break I went to a couple of safe dealers locally and they were way cheaper than what I found on-line (and for AMSEC). At least shop em...


This is especially true with used safes. Also, make sure the company you are talking to is an actual safe company, and not simply a locksmith.

It has been my general experience that I can sell safes online much cheaper than I can locally. I have almost zero overhead for my online sales, whereas I have to stock, ship, and warehouse safes locally. Many online retailers will not be collecting sales tax on out of state sales.

What do yous guys think? Would I have to pay more for a conventional lock and is it worth it? What's a good one with a conventional combination lock?

A conventional or "mechanical lock" should cost less than an electronic lock, and are typically your standard option. Electronic locks are usually optional, and add about $120 to the cost of the safe.

Any UL rated mechanical lock should serve your needs. S&G, LaGard, Ilco, and others produce locks. The manufacturer of the safe doesn't matter when it comes to the lock itself.

Lurper
July 31, 2007, 05:03 PM
IF you want the best safe made, check out Ft. Knox. There are other good safes, but Ft. Knox has better quality and features than the others. They also cost a bit more than most, but worth it. My experience with Cannon has been that they do everything they can to not have to honor the warranty. That is the main reason we no longer carry them.

The cheaper safes just don't give you the security that the high end ones do. The cheaper ones are much easier to defeat and don't have the fire protection that the high end ones do. You should buy the best safe you can afford, even if it means saving your pennies for a while. A good safe is like a good firearm: you hope you never need it, but when you do, you need it to do what it was designed to do. Most of the low end safes just give you a false sense of security.

IHMSA has a great article on how to choose a gun safe on their website.

Im283
July 31, 2007, 05:26 PM
Lets get back to electronic locks and the what if scenario of an "EMP".

Does anyone know how these locks would react to this? I saw an episode of Myth Busters where they ran a car directly underneath an EMP device. It killed the motor of the car but still let lesser elctronics work. I cannot remember exactly what electronics on the car survived. I think windows and the fan, flashers maybe. Wouldn't the electronics of a RSC (to keep the safe snobs happy, heh:evil:) be along this line of minor electronics and maybe survive an EMP.

Anyone know?

vynx
July 31, 2007, 06:15 PM
I second going to a safe store and checking out used safes.

I ended up buying a used TL30 that is huge - I don't remember the exact size but approx. 68" tallx 37"wide by 34" deep give or take an inch. It cost less than a new Fort Knox that the store was pushing.

The best part is it weighs over 3700 lbs! I'm having some re-modeling work done and the 2 construction guys were going to move it out into the room so they could do some work behind it and they couldn't move it! I loved hearing that. They had a pallet jack and it was a no go!

Will Learn
July 31, 2007, 06:39 PM
I have the winchester safe in question and like it a lot. Granted it isn't as nice as those multi-thousand dollar safes but it works. Its quick to get into(for me;) and is very heavy. It is UL listed and holds a lot of guns. There are also four small holes in the bottom in case you want to bolt it to the floor.

The safe has GREAT value, just make sure to get one of those moving trucks with a slide out ramp, to put to your front door. Using a good dolly me and a friend got the safe into the house in about 15min. Mine is also bolted to the cement foundation with 6inch screws so someone won't take it out in 15min;). Good luck, you can't go wrong with this safe.

willbrink
July 31, 2007, 06:39 PM
Seems this topic has been covered like many times. Do a search for RSC and Amsec BF series RSC, etc.

Greywolf
July 31, 2007, 08:00 PM
Thanks, guys, for all the advice. My brain hurts now. Every time I think I have the right safe picked out I end up doing more research and rethinking my choices. I'd rather spend an extra $500-$800 and do it right the first time. I just don't know if I trust the electronic locks, for many reasons.

I called EVERY safe company and locksmith today in the Tampa, FL area and NO ONE had any used safes. So it looks like I'll either have to buy a new one from a local store or order one from the internet and have it shipped to me.

a1abdj
July 31, 2007, 09:06 PM
I called EVERY safe company and locksmith today in the Tampa, FL area and NO ONE had any used safes.

No used gun safes, or no used safes at all?

If you can't find any used safes at all, then you're speaking to the wrong people. If you're not finding any used gun safes, that's fairly common. I get about 20 inquiries for every 1 used gun safe that I get.

Let me know if it's the wrong people, and I'll get you some names and numbers.

Greywolf
August 1, 2007, 01:23 AM
a1 - I asked about gun safes and regular safes - nada, zip, zero.

I'm getting a little jaded here. Granted, I'm not the brightest bulb in the refridgerator, but I do want to make the right decision. I spent some time today assessing the value of my collection. I came out to about $10,000 in true costs - many of my guns can be replaced, but some cannot - the 2 SBR rifles with suppressors - we're talking $800 in tax stamps alone. The HK P9S in 9mm and one in .45 (very rare), and the over $2000 in optics alone, plus when I get some Gen 3 night vision, that is over $3000 right there, not to mention important papers, photos, etc.

So, with that said, I think now I'm seriously considering ponying up for a much better safe. I'm not expecting to go over about 10 rifles and 4 handguns in the future. My house is concrete block in a city, so fire danger is minimal and response time is fast. Hurricanes are a concern, though.

I think I might be willing to go into the $1500 range on the safe, but if in the future we decide to move, I'd want something not too dificult to take with me.

I guess when it comes down to it, spending 15% of my collection's value on security isn't a bad deal. Any suggestions? I don't think I care for the $599 special at Sam's Club anymore due to the light-weight construction and minimal fire rating.

Charles Foxtrot
August 1, 2007, 03:24 AM
Got a Winchester 6026 for $888 through Sam's. Good safe, maybe a bit light in it's construction out of #10 sheet metal.

I spent more to get a smaller safe - but I got the mechanical dial instead of the electronic lock. Call me paranoid -- my wife does -- but the idea of a computer controlled lock gives me the willies. I work with computers all day, so I don't trust the cantankerous beasts any farther than I could throw one (IBM PS-2: fourteen and a half feet.) Battery exhaustion, outright failures, back door codes, flooding, EMP, etc. all means I might be separated from the guns when I needed them.

Greywolf
August 3, 2007, 12:39 AM
Looks like I'm now down to the Zykan Diamond series, the AMSEC BF series, and the SturdySafe. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

piste
August 4, 2007, 02:23 AM
I read that "other" thread about ...well let's just call it gun "storage" to keep it simple....And I was chomping at the bit to get a post in but work and other nonsense kept me from doing so. So here's my totally unsolicited advice. Engage the debate about RSC's, gun safes, non-gun safes, document safes. whatever ....if you like. And hey, if you got thousands to spend on some sort of "storage" protection for your weapons...go forth and conquer. But I think for the "masses" it comes down to this. Leaving your weapons..of any value..laying around the house...not such a good idea. Thinking you gotta spend a year's salary on something to put them in...well if you can great...but I suspect most of us cannot. So do a little research...get something at a "reasonable" price that the average hack can't get through in 5 minutes ...and whtat has some level of "advertised" fire protection...and be done with it. Thinking of protection as one layer....bad idea. Think layers of protection and you don't need all that much to put your guns in...this is key. In fact my set up will make it highly unlikely anyone will even GET to my safe much less get in it. All that other arcane B.S. is well...just that. Safe snobs come forth and identify yourselves.

Mainsail
August 4, 2007, 03:08 AM
I listed my priorities thusly:

Price All the justifications for spending four figures have little meaning if I donít have that kind of money to spend. Yes, I would love to own a huge gun safe that can withstand a near strike with a thermonuclear warhead, but I need something now, not in 20 years when I have enough money for one.

Some fire resistance. OK, there hasnít been a house that burned to the ground here in as long as I can remember. The fire department, unlike the police, has a really fast response time here in the city. All I need is 15 or 20 minutes, tops; then my house getís flooded by a bunch of bored firemen.

Lock. I wanted an electronic lock for speed of opening, but I wanted a mechanical lock in case a fire melts the keypad or the electronics get jumbled. (The electronic locks have a plastic membrane keypad)

Room enough. I have three long guns and five handguns. I donít need a vault with a wet bar.

Theft resistance. I donít need something that will stop a motivated professional team of burglars, I just need something that will stop the normal smash-&-grabber or a teenager. In reality, with a high school only five blocks away, teenagers are my biggest threat. If I lived way out in the country, I might need something that takes a long time and torches to open, but here, no.

I looked at one of the $180 large steel cabinets, the ones with a key lock. That would satisfy my lock requirement since itís quick and safe from electronic bugs. I didnít like the lack of fire resistance and there was also a pretty wide gap around the doors. They might keep my kid out, but I had little confidence it would keep out a determined teen or regular burglar.

After a lot of looking I bought this one (http://www.directsafes.com/gun-safe.cfm?ProductID=529) for $465 delivered to my house. Itís fire resistant, has an electronic lock with an emergency key backup (to use the key you have to pretty much destroy the electronic lock), thick walls and hard-plate, and at 300 pounds empty, nobodyís going to be toting it away while Iím at work.

thebaldguy
August 4, 2007, 03:46 AM
Think about how big a gun safe/rsc you need.

Then double the size. It's a great place to store important documents, coins, jewelry, laptops, expensive cameras/eletronics etc. I was amazed how much important, expensive non gun stuff gets secured in the gun safe. It gives us some peace of mind from a possible smash and grab burglar when we're not around.

That being said, I saw a low/mid? end Graffunder safe recently in a safe store. It was a large, heavy, secure safe. It was around $4000.00. My girlfriend looked at the safe, and pointed out that didn't seem unreasonable for a high degree of secure storage for a lifetime. Even after you go, I'm sure some family member or next of kin could use the safe. Think about it as a safe deposit box in your home. I've known non gun owners get one for the secure storage.

I've learned a lot about safes here on THR. We're already thinking about a second safe when if we move to a larger house in the next few years.

MountainPeak
August 4, 2007, 09:23 AM
I own two Liberty safes. I've been happy with both. Buy one that is bigger than you think you need. :)

Houston Tom
August 4, 2007, 09:36 AM
I have a browningbecame a must when the boy was born. Two things I would mention 1 as mentioned before get bigger then you think you will need lots of stuff can go into the safe.

In case of fire adn get a good fire rated safe, water damage can happen so may want to put any documents etc in a water tight container in the safe.

I went with the old fashioned combo lock, The warrenty on the key pad was just a year on most of the electronic locks. I keep my HD gun in a sepearate quick access safe so real quick access is not mission critical.


ANoe reason for going bigger then you need is a little know law that says if you have empty spaces in your gun safe then you must buy guns to fill them:D.

rob
August 4, 2007, 08:09 PM
Grey. I see you are in Tampa. I bought my safe from these folks. http://www.tampasafeexchange.com/index.html and have never regretted it. Maybe a little more expensive, but their customer service is first rate.

Greywolf
August 4, 2007, 09:16 PM
Yeah, I talked to them - seemed nice and knew a lot, but they didn't care the brands I was interested in.

rich0372
August 4, 2007, 09:45 PM
They have Liberty and Cannon. I work at Costco and was looking at getting one from here too

http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?whse=BC&topnav=&search=safe&N=0&Ntt=safe&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US

Doggy Daddy
August 4, 2007, 10:05 PM
Personally, I would go out of my way to NOT buy a gun safe from an anti-gun establishment like Costco! :fire:

rich0372
August 4, 2007, 10:08 PM
Personally, I would go out of my way to NOT buy a gun safe from an anti-gun establishment like Costco!

Doggy Daddy
August 4, 2007, 10:12 PM
rich0372
Why are they anti gun?

I dunno why... arrogance? Stupidity??

Read This (http://www.jpfo.org/alert20061031.htm)

Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law enforcement officers. For the protection of all our members and employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace. Our policy is meant to protect our members and employees in all warehouses around the world. This is not a new policy and we do not customize the policy for each individual city/county/state/country where we do business.The shopping experience is not enhanced by bringing a firearm into our warehouse.

Our primary goal at Costco Wholesale is to keep our members happy.

rich0372
August 4, 2007, 10:19 PM
I know they don't let us workers carry either. I have a question about this if a privary co. has a sign up saying no firearms allowed but, you have a CCW for that state to carry shouldn't you still be able to carry your not breaking any laws right??

Doggy Daddy
August 4, 2007, 11:05 PM
rich0372
I know they don't let us workers carry either. I have a question about this if a privary co. has a sign up saying no firearms allowed but, you have a CCW for that state to carry shouldn't you still be able to carry your not breaking any laws right??

That would depend on the specific laws of your state. Also, since there is a membership agreement, you would have to check it for any penalties that Costco might impose: for instance, loss of membership and membership fees.

And as always, IANAL. :D

Mannlicher
August 4, 2007, 11:56 PM
I am a firm beliver in using a good safe to store your guns. I have a Browning Bronze, a Ft Knox, and a Liberty in my den. The Ft Knox seems to be the better safe by far.

rocinante
August 4, 2007, 11:57 PM
Not sort a whole thread but this is sort of related and hopefully not a hijack.

I just got a stack-on strong box safe with electronic lock. I got it so I can have quick access to a hand gun when someone is going bump in the night. Does it really have to go beep when you push a number. It is not real loud but damn it if I am going for my gun I do not need an audible warning to whom it may concern.

Sorry for the vent.

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