[Swampbubba]

Hi Y'all, I've been lurking on this and other firearms forums for quite sometime. I don't post much and this is my first on THR.
The subject of personal defense handguns has been brought up so much that it has practically been beaten to death. But I do want to broach the subject one more time so please bear with me, OK?
Now that Kel-Tec has introduced their new P3AT .380 and the NAA Guardian .380 is gaining in popularity and the Bersa .380 is getting rave reviews, there seems to be an awful lot of discussion in the firearms forums as to the worth of the .380 cartridge and it's place in the self defense arena. I know it is widely used in Europe and in South American countries but is looked upon with distain in the good old USA.
For the past 5+ years I have carried a a mildly customized Walther PPK/S .380, The slide is polished to a chrome like finish, the feed ramp has been polished and smoothed, all of the external sharp edges have been smoothed and "melted in", it has beautiful rosewood checkered grips and the DA trigger has been worked on. She runs 100%. This little jewel is part of me, I don't feel dressed unless she's tucked into her IWB holster. I have practiced repeatedly with it and at seven yards, with one hand, I can always put 6 out of 8 shots in a paper plate and often I get all 8. For CCW I keep her loaded with 8 Silver Glazer Safety Slugs. The spare magazine is loaded with Speer Gold Dot 90gr JHP's. For all these years I have felt adequately armed and protected. Now for the first time I'm beginning to wonder if I am adequately armed. Am I?
Please folks don't answer by telling me what you carry or what I should be carrying, If I decide to change guns, I know what it will be. What I really would like to hear is answers to my basic question, am I adequately armed or do I really need to trade old faithful in? With Kel-Tec, Bersa and NAA pumping out lots of .380's are the people who buy them adequately armed. I know size does matter, but what about us guys with little ones?
BUBBA

[Delmar]

Bubba,
If you can hold a pie plate at 7 yards with good ammunition, you're probably where you need to be. Lord knows we all need practice and we try to get out when we can, as it sounds like you do. A good 380 load is about par with a good 38 Special, which defended police officers and civilians for the better part of 100 years, so taking that into account, I think you're doing fine.

I am of the belief that the smaller the caliber, the more accurate you should be with it in order to be effective. Hits in the right place count for more than caliber or power, which is secondary.

[JFrame]

Hi Bubba,

I'd rather be missed with a big ol' .44 mag than peppered with .380's by someone who knows where to place them.

You and that PPK sound like a good fit! As long as you're confident in the gun's reliability and your ability to use it when it matters, I think everything else is pretty secondary...IMHO.

--JFrame

[HBK]

It sounds like you are fine with the PPK/S, especially since you are so comfortable with it. I wouldn't worry about changing anything now.

[Boats]

My take on pop guns:

They'd better be "Surprise Bad Guy!" arm's length or abouts fired at still or barely moving targets, empty the mag into the face and then run like H-E-Double Hockey Sticks!

Mouse guns, (yes I have some and yes .380 is a mousegun in my book), have no ballistic power for making marginal hits feel like major trouble to the target, possess poor sight radii and handling characteristics, which translates into poor acquisition and tracking of moving targets or ones partially behind cover. They also mostly sport poorly thought out mag releases (heel catch) and slow reloading even compared to a snub revolver, (who has a mag carrier for their mouser equipped with a magwell? Suddenly, a Bianchi speedstrip looks good).

A J-frame packing 5 rounds of .38 Spec. +P is my minimum floor for "well armed" with a handgun and even that is no great shakes as I'd rather endure the pain of firing a lightweight .357 mag in extremis. I'd rather get physical therapy on my wrists than carry something that can't get the job done.:evil:

[Smoke]

For deep cover I carry a Colt Gov't .380

I prefer something larger Here's why:

At the facility where I train, a couple of the officers are fond of telling this story:

A former NFL lineman that had gotten strung out on drugs, was prostituting himself in the high crime area of suburban Detroit. He was well known by the local PD.

One night he flagged a patrol car and as He approached the officer's he kept saying, "Help me I've been shot"

He was fully conscious and walking and it seems he had been shot. Right between the eyebrows with a .380. (Bullet type and firearm unknown) The bullet had lodged in the skin and had failed to penetrate the bone. He only had a concussion.

While I'm not likely to meet up with any 6'7' 300+ female impersonators with a drug problem, in the event I did, I'd like to be able to stop the threat. Bigger calibers also stop smaller threats better.

[Tamara]

Considering that millions of Americans have, for several generations, trusted their lives successfully to five- and six-shot .38 Specials with 2" barrels, I don't see what all the fuss is about...

:confused:

[Al Thompson]

1st rule of a gunfight - have a gun.
2nd rue - have a reliable one.

Waaaay down the list is caliber, etc.,etc.

For every caliber, there are horror stories and success stories. Louis Awerbuck reports that he's seem .45 hardball glance off the brim of a ball cap (he clothes his targets when training). The only two "one shot stops" where I knew the shooter were performed with a .25 and a .38 special. One good friend got cut after shooting a knife weilder with a .357 125 JHP in the heart (tactics mistake he freely admited too). Acquaintence had a AD with a .45 w/185 JHPs and remained alert and functional.

The list can really fuel the old stopping power debate. :rolleyes:

The only fly in the ointment I see with your PPK is the Glaser ammo. IME, it's finicky about feeding and has POI/POA issues in most everything else. If you've tested it extensively (50 rounds, same lot), you should be good to go.

[Dr.Rob]

Ditch the Glasers. Seriously, even premium hollw point ammo doesn't offer much penetration from a 380 if it hits bone, the glaser will leave a nasty looking painful wound, but it might not penetrate to anything vital.

I'd opt for federal EFMJ or hydrashocks.

[WonderNine]

Why go 9X17 (ammo twice as expensive and half the power of 9mm) when you can go 9X19??? :confused:

[HBK]

.380 is just as good as a 38, practically the same right? I'm thinking size is the big difference, W-9. I can slip my PPK/S into my pocket and it's concealed, even if I'm wearing nothing but swimming trunks. I can't conceal my P-99 that way.

[Mastrogiacomo]

My choice as a female shooter? The Beretta in a 9mm. The compact type M is a great carry and the Cheetah in the .380 is also an excellent choice. Mob hits have been carried out with .22s so it's not the size that matters but placement. If your comfortable with the .380 and shoot it well -- you should be well prepared for anything. :cool:

[cool45auto]

Welcome to THR, Swampbubba!:D

Shot placement is everything they say. I carry a "little 'ol 9mm" myself but don't feel under-gunned at all. ;)

[10-Ring]

As long as you practice w/ it on a regularly (more than 4X a year ;) ), use good defensive ammo that feeds reliably, you should be fine.

[Boats]

Let's put to rest this equivalency argument between .380 and .38 Special shall we?

To keep it something of apple to apple I went to Winchester's website and retreived the muzzle velocity figures for Silvertips commonly found in smaller concealed handguns and for kicks threw in some alternate Super -X loadings:

.380 Auto 85gr. Silvertip Hollowpoint= 189 foot pounds MV

.380 Auto 95gr. Super-X Hollowpoint= 192 foot pounds MV

.38 Special 110gr. Silvertip Hollowpoint= 218 foot pounds MV

.38 Special +p 125gr. Silvertip Hollowpoint= 248 foot pounds MV

9mmP (sorry no +p option at Winchester) 115gr Silvertip Hollowpoint= 383 foot pounds MV

.357 Mag 145gr. Silvertip Hollowpoint= 535 foot pounds MV

.357 Mag 125gr. Super-X Hollowpoint= 583 foot pounds MV

Of note is that the revo rounds are measured from a 4" vented test barrel so there is some loss from true 2.5" snubs, but not enough to make .357 mag into a 9mm and .38 Special +p into a .380

Now as a .45ACP shooter I do not believe MV is the be all and end all of terminal effectiveness, but in terms of raw power it is a useful yardstick to compare various caliber loadings.

So move on, nothing to see here. :neener:

[Bobarino]

i certainly would not feel undergunned with a PPK in .380. if you're starting to feel uncomfortable with it though, try out a few others and see if you gain confidence in one or some others. confidence in your everyday carry gun is a big factor in how you might react in a situation that might actually call for you to draw or use your gun. you should feel that the combination of your gun and your skills will be enough to save your life. if you do not have that much faith in your gun, get another one. why not try out the Kel-Tec P11? same size, lighter weight, 10+1 capacity, cheap ammo, TONS of defensive ammo choices, very affordable. thats just one suggestion but there quite a few higher capacity and/or higher caliber guns out there in the same size range. the mini-Glocks are good choices too.

Bobby

[Tamara]

I'm currently using Winchester Ranger SXT 95gr ammo in my P232. I don't really think it gives up much to 110/125gr .38 Spl loads out of 2" snubbies. Still, toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe; either should perform well if you do.

[CZF]

The .380 is not my fave for CCW. However, when it is 105F and i need
a gun. My 13-shot CZ83 is usually under my Cape Union made vest.
Offering low recoil..combined with high-capacity. The '83 is also a
favorite with people in S. Africa and other dangerous countries.
At least one S.American police force issues the CZ83.

I like the Federal Hydra-Shok , but think the Cor-Bon +P is the way
to go. I wouldn't mind a SIG P232 or a PPK if it was as reliable as
my '83. Compared to a .38 Special snub. I feel better armed with
a .380. More shots and a slimmer/faster reload.

[J. Parker]

I have an East German Makarov I like alot but don't carry it very often. I either pack a G19 with +P ammo or a P-220 (45). Is the 380 adequate? Yes. But when my life is on the line I want more than adequate.
I'd step up to a 9mm pistol. Just my thoughts, John

[David4516]

Swampbubba, I have a simlar set-up. I carry IWB a Makarov in 9mm Makarov (aka 9X18). I do not feel under-gunned. I am confident that if I hit something vital, the bad guy is gonna notice.

And I think .380 fired from a small auto is = to a .38 from a snub revolver. I know that 9mm Makarov is = to .38 in terms of foot pounds of energy. Here is some info that I gathered with a chronograph:

.38 fired from 2 inch barrel:

129 gr Federal Hydra-shock, 855 FPS, 209 Energy

9mm Makarov from Makarov Pistol:

95 gr Hornady XTP, 1026 FPS, 222 Energy

The 9mm Makarovs were my own creation (I reload), the .38s were factory. These are not advertised ballistics, this is real world data. 9mm Makarov isn't that much more "powerful" than .380, so I think that you could say that .380 is equal to .38 when fried from pistols of similar size.

[Boats]

I think that you could say that .380 is equal to .38 when fried from pistols of similar size.


I have been known to fry my own rounds,;) and I think the above can only be said if one ignores the fact that .38 Spec.+p is out there from the factory and home brewing to be stuffed into the snubbies. Also, since energy isn't necessarily everything, if neither expands, I'd rather be throwing a heavier slug, again an area the revolver has a significant advantage over the 9mm kurtzes.

A reloader can whip up some pretty stout rounds for the .38 Special without as much regard need being given for feeding, extraction, or timing issues (interplay of slide velocity, magazine feed, and RTB) as on the more complicated autopistol. One just not need blow up the revo and make sure the cases don't bulge too much so that they don't extract.:what: Careful work up is required of course and don't try this at home without adult supervision kiddies.:D

I think on calibers below the .38/9mm range the autopistol has an advantage over most micro revolvers. At the 9mm Short area, the .38 is more versatile. The 9mm is good but the .357 Mag is way better in nearly equivalent size platforms and the .357 SIG has good small gun potential--if one can handle the platforms and the recoil. It would be interesting to see someone create a baby .357SIG. Even at 6+1 capacity, it would be intriguing.

I guess I am being consistent even though I am defending a wheelgun here. I will happily trade shot capacity for real gains in per shot effectiveness. I make that decision everyday with a 1911 over any other higher cap auto and I would make that decision if I carried a lesser gun like we are talking about in this thread.

If I ever get tired of carrying a Commander sized 1911, I will be trading down for some scandium based .357 mag (340PD) or .44 Special (396), grinning and bearing it. Chances are I will never have to fire in a SD situation. If I ever have to, I want to throw something downrange that grabs the target's immediate attention that he has been seriously shot and my personal comfort with the firing experience is way down the list of desireability.:evil:

[greyhound]

I think its shot placement by a landslide over caliber. Practice a lot with your weapon, and you'll have leg up on most. Plus, your pistol is very concealable so there's another plus!

[Boats]

"Shot placement" is the war cry of pop gunners. If they could trade up successfully there is little doubt that most would. I have anecdotal evidence of this from a few guys I know at the range. They desperately wanted to play with the big boys in bowling pin shoots and so acquired larger caliber weapons than they were accustomed to. After awhile, both guns I am aware of bought solely for pin shoots appeared FS on the bulletin board. Of course, all one ever hears out of them is "shot placement" as they sometimes plug a bowling pin up to three times to get it to fall off the platform.

"Shot placement and ballistic effectiveness" beats "shot placement" alone every time.:D Why not just carry a .22lr and stand with the courage of your convictions?

People who carry carry light. People who shoot carry as lethal a gun as is practical.

[Lennyjoe]

Im a firm believer that 9MM is minimum for primary self defense handgun. Just my .02 worth on that.

As for the .380, ditch the Glazer safety slugs and get some good quality JHP.

Its my belief, and only mine, that a .380 should not be relied on as a primary self defense handgun, only used in a back up category.

Then again, any handgun is better than no handgun.
;)

[Landric]

Howdy,

I don't see any reason to change carry guns. If you are happy with it and you shoot it well, what would be the point?

Handguns are not powerful, and while the various "service" calibers have more energy and bullet weight than the .380 does, that does not make any of them Thor's Hammer.

Obviously shot placement is the key to stopping power in the handgun arena. Being able to place your rounds well is more important than anything else.

That said, obviously more powerful handguns are better than less powerful ones, to a point, so long as the ability to place shots stays the same, and the often larger size of the more powerful handgun does not keep its owner from carrying it in the first place.

Personally, I carry a HK USP45 Compact with 230 grain Gold Dot ammunition and a S&W 342PD loaded with Magsafe Defender as a backup. That is the combination that works for me. If the PPK works for you, stick with it.

The only change I would make would be to switch away from Glaser Safety Slugs as your primary carry ammunition. The Glaser is a special use round. While I carry Magsafe in my backup gun, I am more comfortable with traditional JHP ammunition in my primary carry weapon. That said, if you have thought about the disadvantages of the Glaser and are comfortable with it, stick with it.

[HBK]

I always wondered about the "back up gun" being a smaller caliber. I mean, if you get in a situation so dire that you need a back up gun, shouldn't you have a more powerful gun for a back up. For example, If you use a 9mm then switch to a back uo of .380, if the 9 couldn't get the job done, the .380 sure won't. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a more powerful backup, like a Glock 29?

[Swampbubba]

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to answer my questions. I sincerely appreciate each and every comment.
I am very comfortable with my PPK but I think I'll move up to a Glock 33 .357 Sig. Even the smallest .45 1911 is too big. I came close to a Kimber Ultra Carry but the grip is just too fat. And the Glock's $300 less.
My wife suggested that I build a shadow box glass case for the PPK and retire it to the mantel piece, not a bad idea. It's a beautiful gun.
The larger pistol will take some getting used to but I practice a lot just for sport so it won't take long to get proficient. Getting comfortable carrying it may take a little longer.
I hope everyone contemplating buying a new NAA for over $400 and those considering a P3AT or Bersa reads this thread. I can get a new Glock 33 for $525 which is what I'm going to do.
You folks really enlightened me on the Glazers I thought they were hot stuff I can see now I was wrong. Cor-Bons for me from here on out.
Thanks again everyone, Bubba

[VaughnT]

Bubba (I had a good friend go by that handle), I'm really glad to see that this forum has done what it was designed to do. That being to educate people.

However, I don't think it's fair to say that your Walther is a substandard defensive weapon. I'd gladly carry it if the size and weight were such that it allowed me to carry it all the time. I can't count the number of times I've gone without a pistol simply because my style of dress precluded concealment. If that pistol comes to your hand quickly and you can put rounds down range with speed and accuracy, keep on carrying it.

Far better to have a .22 in the hand than a .45 in the dresser drawer!

For what it's worth, I'm seriously considering the Kahr P9 for a backup simply because it offers a slimmer cross-section and more ammo capacity than the traditional revolver. Those scandium/titanium revolvers are nice, but five shots and a stinging hand don't equal eight shots and an easy carry.

As for ammo, Glaser doesn't impress me. I've seen nothing but good reports on Speer Gold Dot hp's (including Border Patrol penetration tests) and carry it almost exclusively. The Hydrashock has been known to clog and not expand. The Corbon PowerBall is intriguing.....but I have to wonder.

+P is a plus if you can handle it. But I'd worry about tritium sights before I'd worry about ammo types. If you can't line up your sight picture, what does it matter the ammo fired?

And finally, welcome to the high road. Mighty glad to have you hear.

[gearbox]

For concealed carry I'd probably choose a Kahr K9 or MK9. Compact gun, accurate, manageable recoil, reliable, sufficient power, few snaggable controls.

But then...what do I know, I'm from the state that illegalized self defense.

[Jim March]

On a contrary note:

The "bigger gun" crowd is missing something: the fact that at very close ("bad breath") range, the snubby wheelgun in 38 or 357 simply dominates over any other type. It's difficult to grab away, fast to draw and operate (only one control, the trigger) and can't go out of battery on muzzle contact. While the advantages aren't huge, at that sort of horribly dangerous "red zone" range, every advantage is worthwhile.

And it's where a LOT of muggings/rapes/assaults happen.

Cirillo's method was to have a 38snub as "first at bat" weapon, with a larger piece (or two!) lined up behind that as reloads and for longer-range affairs.

Under this thinking, the snubbie becomes your "always on you" gun, always carried in the same place and always the first thing you reach for. If the potential hazards faced warrant it, you add more hardware in stages as needed (all the way to crew-served weapon system :D).

[yesterdaysyouth]

i don't feel undergunned with a 380... i carry my p232 with fed, hi-shocks almost exclusively (i speel good...) in the summer....

if penetration was a problem it wouldn't be that hard to load the other mag with fmj....

i don't think any size man on any type of drug wouldn't be stopped by 8 rnds of 380 as long as i can put em where they need to be..... if he hasn't stopped at 7 then you can pretty much guess where 8's going, and it's not in the head, well yeah it is i guess :eek:

if they're high or drunk they'll just bleed easier...

[22luvr]

My own self-defense handgun standard is to keep all my shots in a paper-plate sized target at about 7 yards.

If you're doing that, you are doing just fine.

I'd keep that PPK if I were you; It probably has better workmanship than any similar-sized .380 currently being produced.

And, welcome to the High Road; glad you're here........

[VaughnT]

Mr. March, that's a very interesting way of looking at the subject. As a matter of fact, I believe you just might be on to something because, as you say, most conflicts are within grappling range. Makes me rethink the snubbie.

[gearbox]

Regarding the issue of revolvers never firing out of battery, does a shrouded, or, better yet, internal, hammer create an added bonus?

[Jim March]

Yes, the hammer type matters a little bit. With a standard hammer, there are ways of disabling the gun by throwing the web of your hand in front of the other guy's hammer. This often HURTS, esp. if it's got a hammer mounted firing pin (OW!) but it works...if the guy was stupid enough to cock it.

If he DOESN'T cock it, the way to disable a DA revolver is to grab the cylinder. But the (highly effective) counter to that is a "rollout" - step sideways, drop your elbow and then sharply twist the gun back out of his grip in a "rotary" motion.

The "hand web in behind the hammer" method has a weakness, and it's a big one: the off-hand of the guy trying to grab the gun away MUST come in under the gun and cradle it up into the hand doing the hammer block. In other words, both of the grabber's hands must make a try at the gun at the same time. Which leaves the gunman's hand free to do...whatever. Go for a knife, punch you in the throat, etc.

The "cylinder grab" can be done with one hand, if the goal is to tie up the gun-hand long enough to get a punch or knife thrust or club blow or other nastiness such as the "elbow fold" (described below). Which is why the guy whose gun just got grabbed must sidestep (generally to the outside) while rolling the gun free, to avoid that inevitable incoming "special delivery".

Now, all of this can happen with a slidegun too. The difference is, if you get a shot off while the slide is being grabbed, and the gun isn't pointed at him or doesn't do a disabling shot, the gun is now tied up until cleared. The moment you twist the snubbie away from a grab attempt, it doesn't matter if it fired during the grapple, it'll fire again when the trigger is pulled.

While we're on the subject: one effective way of grabbing a gun is to grab at the guy's gun-hand with one of yours, and with your other hand (or often, your other-arm forearm) fold his ebow up, twisting his whole body around and down by that arm (and breaking it, if possible). By taking his balance away, you prevent any counter attack, be it kicking or punching or knife or whatever.

Done right, it doesn't matter what gun the guy has.

Which is why, the MOMENT you feel your gun get grabbed, you start that sidestepping and dropping and twisting routine. Either the other hand will join that first at the gun, or he'll do the elbow fold and you're really screwed. In all of these cases, you're better off with a snub than anything else BUT that alone ain't a guarantee.

If it's not clear yet: all of this is basic knife technique adapted to the gun in close range messes. At close range, esp. since there's no problem with muzzle contact on firing, your snubby can be "used as a knife".