My Convo with a European Anti


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boredelmo
July 31, 2007, 03:26 PM
Was at a party, met a cute chick that was half French/half German.

Somehow got to talking about hunting/firearms. Chick started talking to me.

The general "Guns are evil, they were invented to kill."

Further down i asked a key question: "If an armed man had your mom at gunpoint, and you had a gun, would you shoot the man if you knew for a fact she was about to be killed?"

Her answer: "OH NOOO OF COURSE NOT. My mom would have died happy knowing i didnt kill anyone."

I puked a little in my mouth. she continues on to say things like: "People can get over rape, ive had many friends raped, they got over it."


I politely said "I guess youve got some opinions" and promptly left.


Stuff like that disgusts me, if someone wouldnt kill to save a loved one theres no talking sense to them.:cuss::banghead:


I politely avoided her the rest of the party, no matter how cute she was.

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MD_Willington
July 31, 2007, 03:28 PM
I like my Basque neighbor, "That .223?, I've shot that in a FAMAS before..."

Her father is ex-military, and she used to shoot with the troops, kept her out of trouble I guess... things are different in the colonies...

Joe the Redneck
July 31, 2007, 04:38 PM
I've found that most antis are victims of "trained helplessness". They never seem to be able to "do the math" of logic.

Criminals do not obey laws, that's why they are criminals.

Meat doesn't come from a store, it comes from an animal. If you think hunting is cruel, don't use animal products.

Police are there to investigate and solve crimes, not prevent them. They can't be everywhere at once.

Sad.

Joe

ozwyn
July 31, 2007, 04:49 PM
I would say the person you were talking with has neither been a victim themselves and may have issues feeling empathy for their victimized friends (if they actually exsist).

Crunker1337
July 31, 2007, 04:59 PM
She's free to allow everyone around her to die, but that's not something I'd do.

Mr White
July 31, 2007, 05:24 PM
Not much you can say in the way of reason, logic or common sense in the face of attitudes like that.

30 cal slob
July 31, 2007, 05:28 PM
the sad thing is, that if she does get mugged (or worse) by a perp with a gun, she's gonna blame all of US for it.

pdowg881
July 31, 2007, 05:29 PM
The european attitude seems to be that the goverment is there to protect you, and you cannot.

budney
July 31, 2007, 05:33 PM
I puked a little in my mouth. she continues on to say things like: "People can get over rape, ive had many friends raped, they got over it."

That's doubly amazing coming from a woman. Rape isn't so bad? :what:

I guess that's why it's a good thing I'm married and don't get out to parties. I don't think I could've resisted arching an eyebrow and saying, "Really? Would you like to see my Ferrari? It's parked right out back in a dark alley!" How the heck would I explain that on a form 4473? "Reason for restraining order: teachable moment gone horribly awry."

--Len.

Morlock
July 31, 2007, 05:47 PM
quote

Was at a party, met a cute chick that was half French/half German.

quote

does she ever feel conflicted?:scrutiny:

Baba Louie
July 31, 2007, 07:14 PM
...half French/half German.She invades, she surrenders, she gets her boot kicked, then resents the one who did the boot kicking...

Sounds about right to me. :p

She could as easily been a US anti or a Guatemalen anti or... you get the drift...

It's true there are passive people who will easily surrender to evil. Criminals and tyrants (same thing maybe?) know this and bank on it. Some do so quite well.

Did you even try to invite her to go out shooting an evil .22? She'd have a couple of options but the look on her face either way would be worth the price of admission (or admonition). :D

I've taken newbie people out shooting who had a blast yet told me later that they could never ever take a life, even in self defense or to save a family member. That's their reality. Their life. Their decision. And that's fine by moi.

I've found as I get older and my kids have grown up and moved out, my "killer instinct" based on protecting my family is not as strong when it comes to simple self preservation at this point in my life. I still enjoy shooting, I still enjoy hunting, yet as I get closer to the end of an expected lifetime with maybe 20 years to go, I seem to cherish each day, each life, a little more.

Slowing down perhaps, maybe becoming a little wiser. Maybe a bit more stupid... I dunno. Should evil confront me now, I plan on confronting it face to face knowing that I at least have the tools and the mindset, but it's not the same sense of immediate urgency as I used to feel when my kids were young and helpless.

Ya know?

But our culture is different than the one from which the young lady you described came. Not better, not worse, just... different. Yet should her native land(s) find themselves under attack once again, I do not doubt for a second that young armed Americans would move forward to deal with the matter at hand. I think that may be part of our nation's destiny for awhile, since that land and those people are part and parcel of many Americans ancestral heritage. Should that ever come to pass, I'm certain that once again, we'd be scorned or ridiculed after the fact.

C'est la vie.

But boredelmo, you should have invited her to go out shooting!! ;)

Tob
July 31, 2007, 08:07 PM
...she continues on to say things like: "People can get over rape, ive had many friends raped, they got over it."

1 out of 1000 women may indeed 'get over it', but it haunts them for the remainder of their lives. As does the molestation of a child, or the victimization of anyone. She is absolutely wrong in her 'assessment'

230RN
July 31, 2007, 09:18 PM
I suspect she was just "justifying" her preconceived notions when you pressed her --irrational "justifications" or not.

I've seen this phenomenon (not only with respect to firearms) many times, and it sometimes takes a while for people to mull it over in order to see the absurdity.

Try this one: "Is putting on mascara (or texting, or cell-phoning) while driving dangerous?"

It's very informative to get the reactions --that is, the irrational "justifications." As in, "Oh it's not that dangerous," for one thing. But trying to balance even the slightest risk of having an accident against the "risk" of not putting on makeup, or not texting right then and there, or not cell-phoning right then and there is, in a word, irrational.

It sometimes takes a while for this to sink in.

Sometimes years.

CNYCacher
July 31, 2007, 09:41 PM
I've taken newbie people out shooting who had a blast yet told me later that they could never ever take a life, even in self defense or to save a family member. That's their reality. Their life. Their decision. And that's fine by moi.

I am sure it is not your intention, but this paragraph comes very close to sounding like something that justifies the "Guns turn people into killers." BS that anti's like to spew.

You took them shooting and they STILL didn't think think they could kill somebody. . . GOSH!

Please don't take this the wrong way.

Autolite
July 31, 2007, 10:05 PM
This "chick's" reluctance to prevent the murder of her own mother doesn't surprise me. I once asked an anti if she would shoot someone to prevent the murder of her own children. She replied that she wouldn't.
Mindsets such as these are indicative of how severely the anti propaganda has degenerated our collective sensibilities and destroyed even the most basic survival instincts. I fear that the damage done to our society as a whole may as of now be irreversible ...

Standing Wolf
July 31, 2007, 10:32 PM
Would someone please tell me again why we sacrificed so many American lives to save Europe from itself not once, but twice? They're just uncivilized barbarians without a concept of individual worth.

General Geoff
July 31, 2007, 11:31 PM
It's people like her, with that mindset, who allowed the Holocaust and the Great Purges to occur.

"Evil men cannot be corrected by laws, but they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

Blackbeard
July 31, 2007, 11:34 PM
Her answer: "OH NOOO OF COURSE NOT. My mom would have died happy knowing i didnt kill anyone."

I puked a little in my mouth. she continues on to say things like: "People can get over rape, ive had many friends raped, they got over it."

Okay then, what's your mom's address?

stevelyn
July 31, 2007, 11:41 PM
People like that are called prey.

SaMx
July 31, 2007, 11:46 PM
people like that are called eloi

AndyC
August 1, 2007, 12:15 AM
Make it more personal - she's apparently fine with other people being raped/mugged/etc, so find out what she would prefer you to do if she were the victim.

Sleeping Dog
August 1, 2007, 07:36 AM
And does she have a sister who likes shooting?
:D

mordechaianiliewicz
August 1, 2007, 07:49 AM
That's sad. But, there is a reason that Europeans are dying off the face of the Earth as a people and being replaced by Muslims. Say what you will, but there isn't a Muslim alive that wouldn't shoot.

The only problem is that most of them would miss.

Nevertheless, they got a fighting spirit about them.

Baba Louie
August 1, 2007, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baba louie
I've taken newbie people out shooting who had a blast yet told me later that they could never ever take a life, even in self defense or to save a family member. That's their reality. Their life. Their decision. And that's fine by moi.

I am sure it is not your intention, but this paragraph comes very close to sounding like something that justifies the "Guns turn people into killers." BS that anti's like to spew.

You took them shooting and they STILL didn't think think they could kill somebody. . . GOSH!

Please don't take this the wrong way.Never thought of it in the way you mention CNYC. We were sitting around the office (small architectural design firm) talking, they all knew I CCW'd and two of them who hadn't really been anti, but had never been exposed to firearms, being raised in California (Simi Valley and San Luis Obispo) just came out and told me that. I had to laugh, because I told them I had taken them shooting because it was a fun and challenging sport to me and that I doubted they'd ever need to "shoot someone or something" unless they decided to take up hunting. Even then, taking the life of a deer, fowl or fur, tends to bring out a pretty strong emotion in some. That while I've taken classes to better prepare for the "worst case scenario" (self defense) I certainly hoped it was an exercise that I'd never need to use in real life. But, as my Dad used to say and we all tend to realize, "It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it."

I have had young men who worked for/with me tell me that they couldn't own a firearm because they just KNEW they'd probably use it to harm due to their anger issues... to which I agree'd, Some people should not own firearms until they had their impulse/self control down pat.

But never once has anyone so exposed to a range session or two walked away thinking "Guns are Evil". They soon realize it's just an inanimate object and with adequate, calm, reflective discussion, they usually come to their own conclusion that "some people are evil and/or have impulsive self control issues" and probably should not own weapons.

[Thus endeth discourse]

But a hot female at a party... and no offer to go out plinking cans with a .22??? How many chances like that in a lifetime does one get? Far too few I say.

I've been in "The GunStore" in Las Vegas maybe 6 or 7 times this past year (it's on my way home from the office) and each time, I've witnessed literally "scores" of people from all over the world (well, Asia and Europe at any rate) who've come there to rent and shoot submachine guns. I mean the place was packed, Cabbies dropping people off and picking up people out front. Young, old, male, female. Nervous smiles beforehand, upon coming off the range HUGE smiles, photos taken with targets, photos taken while they're shooting, etc. Doing something they'd never ever be able to do back home.

And that makes me glad. Not only for living in this country, but that there's still that spirit in some people from all over the world.

JohnL2
August 1, 2007, 09:49 AM
Her answer: "OH NOOO OF COURSE NOT. My mom would have died happy knowing i didnt kill anyone."

I puked a little in my mouth. she continues on to say things like: "People can get over rape, ive had many friends raped, they got over it."

Woooow.
And I thought I was nuts.

spooky_t
August 1, 2007, 10:32 AM
I think what bothers me, most, about these antis is that they would be the first - and loudest - detractors if they *were* to be attacked or taken over by a tyrant (ie Hitler) and we weren't there to bail their sorry a$$e$ out.
As someone pointed out, we all have ties to the old countries no matter how far removed so we feel the obligation to protect them I guess. But it's a little like the child protecting the parent, don't you think?
Maybe it's time that we tell them they're on their own. We aren't going to do it any more.
After all, God helps those who help themselves. Right?
I know this is a rather extreme view, but after reading so may post on this board about Euro-anits, I'm sick of them (antis). :cuss: Rant over.

Sergeant Sabre
August 1, 2007, 01:08 PM
Police are there to investigate and solve crimes, not prevent them. They can't be everywhere at once.

The sooner the sheep realize this, the better. Being a police officer, I can tell you that the frequency with which I (or anybody else that I have heard responding to an in-progress call on the radio) have arrived to an in-progress call that was still in progress is almost zero. Usually the only time we get there when the crime is still in-progress is when the offender is unaware that we were called (like if a neighbor saw the next-door house being broken into and called it in)

Generally, one of three things happen:

1. Victim / complainant unable to call 911 during crime

2. Victim / complainant calls 911, suspect(s) leave before police arrive

3. Victim / complainant calls 911, suspect(s) stay around and wait to talk to the police

The truth is, I'll get there as quick as I can, but you're still on your own

Havegunjoe
August 1, 2007, 05:01 PM
What an idiot and that goes for her mother too if she really thinks that way. Glad I am not her mother and need her for protection. I guess you can't take away a person's right to be an idiot and say stupid things. My understanding is that most women don't get over being raped but maybe French women are use to it, especially if it happened by Germans.

Blackbeard
August 1, 2007, 05:09 PM
"People can get over rape, ive had many friends raped, they got over it."

I wonder if any got over being murdered, too.

Mr Kablammo
August 1, 2007, 07:48 PM
Pity the Europeans. Their aversion to violence and guns is well-earned, albeit too late to save their victims. Has there ever been a people with such a undirected moral compass? In the last centuries the Europeans were the premier killers on the face of the Earth. Prior to the insane 'boy slaughter' of the First World War the Euros practiced up on mass-killing by using the Africans. King Leopold and the Kaiser killed off tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of Africans. The British, as we know, invented the concentration camp; though not as a death factory. The Second World War, even more stupid and criminal than the First, was orders of magnitude more severe. As Ravel points out in his books, it was the European madness of communism that justified the mass extinctions of Mao and Pol Pot. Even in peacetime the Euro-Slavs sent numberless victims to the Gulag. Yes in the United States too many criminals have access to guns. But Europe, Asia, Africa... there was criminal, even gangster, governance. Pity the European, he has known pride and not self-respect. Pity the European, he has embodied savage utopian ideals that brought Hell to Earth. Pity the European, technoligically capable and morally cretinous. Pity the European, detached from the Golden Rule and the Mean he sees through a glass darkly; or not at all.

TooTaxed
August 1, 2007, 08:36 PM
My own opinion: When a people lose the will to do the hard things that must be done to protect their way of life, that civilization is on its way out. To be replaced by others...

This is what scares me about some of our political leaders...

revjen45
August 1, 2007, 09:12 PM
Europeans regard themselves and their Weltanschauung as the epitome of civilization, and anyone who disagrees is an ignoramus. They are, in the words of Spiro T. Agnew "a corps of effete snobs." They will become dhimmis and pay the jizya because it will be too late and they will have been overcome by an adversary with the will and determination to spit on their pretense of "civilization" and force their worthless defenseless societies to surrender. They are unarmed and lack the warrior philosophy necessary to confront and prevail over an implacable enemy, so they will become the servants of those less scrupulous of the values of "progressive" pseudo-civilization. They already give over half of their income to their governments, so giving it to the Ummah won't be much different.

sonofodin
August 1, 2007, 09:21 PM
"Why where you not stomping her guts out?"

"Sir, it's the privates duty to inform the Senior Drill Instructor that the idiot has a full mouth, and is locked and loaded, Sir!"

Jeeze, *** is wrong with people...morally...I know I know...dealing with people like that makes you want to smack the stupid off their faces BUT I gotta say it...kudos to you for staying away from her, even if she was tempting.

budney
August 1, 2007, 09:36 PM
They already give over half of their income to their governments, so giving it to the Ummah won't be much different.

At traditional rates, the jizya would be under $20 per year. Fedgov wants 500 times more from me in tribute every year. Hm..... just sayin'.

gezzer
August 2, 2007, 01:43 AM
Easy answer is French Mother/German father, product of Rape and thinks it is fine.

My real answer would be banned on the High Road.

barman
August 2, 2007, 03:31 AM
Look, I'm saddened to read this stream of insults.


First of all, let me say that most people on this board (commenting on the European "slave" mentality) have only a tiny part of the European landscape as a reference.

Out of 10 Americans visiting Paris, I would say that only 2 of them maximum ever get out of it in order to check what it's like in the countryside.
And I assure you that I know what I'm talking about, as I am working in the Tourism Industry.

It's a fact that most Europeans are vastly ignorant about America. We unfortunately rely on pop culture to shape our opinions. But the same is definitely true on YOUR side of the pond.

You know what I mean? How many times when I was in the US I was asked questions like: Do you have any washing machines, microwave ovens? Do you have shops like Fred Myers? Do you all wear berets? I'm not kidding you.

How can two continents so far away on the world map could possibly understand each other in a perfect way? It's absolutely impossible.

A few words about myself: I was never raised with a victim's mentality. My parents always taught me that the world was a wild, tough place to be. You wanna be tougher than the average man if you hope having a chance to survive.

I will tell you a few more facts:

- I'm French, and France has around 20 millions registered firearms for a total population of 60 millions people.

- The US might be the "Land of the Free", but that's more in theory than in practice. Many parts of the US are complete police states with very aggressive law enforcement. In Europe (in France at least), while on paper we seem to have less freedom than you do, we are way more inclined to break the law over minor things. In the US you can be arrested for a lot of stupid ****, like jaywalking for example, or having opened containers in your car while you're driving.

- Political Correctness is killing America while it's nowhere as big of a problem in Europe. Detractors like to point out that in Europe denying the holocaust is a crime and thus we don't have real freedom of speech, but that's about the only thing which is taken very seriously.
How about a recent story involving that PACE University student facing hate crime felony charges because he flushed a koran down the toilets?

- Finally, You can keep at firing insults at us as long as you want. I, for my part, will not respond in the same manner. Call me haughty or arrogant if you wish, but if that's being a snob then I'm proud to be one.

Oleg Volk
August 2, 2007, 03:34 AM
barman,

Well said! Ladies and Gentlemen of the High Road, please follow the example of civil conduct hereby provided. Merci!

Matt_W
August 2, 2007, 04:56 AM
Would the daughter die happy knowing her Mom hadn't killed anyone if the situation had been reversed?

Some people are hard wired to be victims and others are just too self centred to engage in any kind of conflict just in case it gets dangerous for themselves.

PennsyPlinker
August 2, 2007, 09:26 AM
My mom would have died happy knowing i didnt kill anyone."

French comment edited out. :neener: I will confess though, that a lot of my neighbors are Mennonites of German extraction, and they are as pacifist as one can be - until you start arguing about pacifism. Then they can get violent about it. And that's the truth!

atomd
August 2, 2007, 10:35 AM
"People can get over rape, ive had many friends raped, they got over it."

Wow. What an ignorant thing to say. She obviously lacks self-worth. Not only that but she also seems extremely selfish. She would let a family member die so she didn't have to live with the guilt of taking a life? She would let a rapist walk away so he could rape others and possibly do something even worse to someone else? Doesn't sound like a very nice person or a good citizen to me.

30 cal slob
August 2, 2007, 11:01 AM
most of you guys have better manners than i do when it comes to european antis.

i just find it really hard to control myself when some UK-anti who happens to work HERE (in the US) spouts off about "you get the civilisation you deserve" and that "law-abiding gun owners who want to defend themselves are the reason why gun crime happens."

i often find that there is no debating these people (NOT on THR, BTW) and that they are deeply set in their ways. when you counter with facts, they ignore them and then weave and parry with intellectually dishonest and selectively out-of-context comments. winning rhetorical arguments become the end as opposed to the means to coming to a consensus on the subject.

sometimes, it just feels good to flame and troll a suspected anti. i've found that throwing in an ad-hominem barb or two, while not nice, will at the very least dislodge any pretense of a Euro who claims to be neutral on RKBA (the anti is pre-occupied with the insult and thus loses the inhibition to say "i want all guns outlawed and confiscated.") at the very least, i can catch someone talking out of both sides of his mouth.

anyhoo,

I'm French, and France has around 20 millions registered firearms for a total population of 60 millions people.

barman, i think that the french have more balls than the english at this point. :neener:

p.s. paris is a blast.

hksw
August 2, 2007, 01:05 PM
Further down i asked a key question: "If an armed man had your mom at gunpoint, and you had a gun, would you shoot the man if you knew for a fact she was about to be killed?"

Her answer: "OH NOOO OF COURSE NOT. My mom would have died happy knowing i didnt kill anyone."

'Into the showers you go. Don't mind the gas, we're having a little problem with the plumbing.'

barman
August 2, 2007, 01:07 PM
p.s. paris is a blast.


Thanks, so are tons of American towns. I'm just back from Fairbanks Alsaka, where my wife's parents live. I just LOVED it. But then again I'm a nature lover and I'm more at ease in rural environments than in big cosmopolitan areas (kind of paradoxical when it comes to my job).


To get back on the content of the first message, that girl was definitely a moron. But I'm sure her point of view is a product of social class and upbringing. Over here, young people from urban areas are kind of obssessed with being smartasses, and lots will be bull****ing you just for the sake of appearing "enlightened", "artistically sensitive" or something.
As someone said, her reaction was extremely selfish, and I would bet a thousand bucks that she won't say the same things once she'll eventually be a mother, with kids to take care of and worry about.

the naked prophet
August 2, 2007, 01:13 PM
Guns are made for killing.

Darn right. Sometimes, some people need killing. Keeps the rest of us safe.

I've had some mighty strange looks when I come back with that one.

boredelmo
August 2, 2007, 01:13 PM
"Over here, young people from urban areas are kind of obssessed with being smartasses, and lots will be bull****ing you just for the sake of appearing "enlightened", "artistically sensitive" or something."

Sounds exactly like her, beforehand she was trying to talk politics according to some book. etc etc.

Deanimator
August 2, 2007, 01:28 PM
I've found that the best way to deal with internet Euros is to rub their noses in their own history.

Snotty Internet German: "Vietnam this, Vietnam that, blah, blah, blah."

Me: "Vietnam? Is that anything like... AUSCHWITZ???

Snotty Internet German: "Wwwhat???"

Me: "You know, AUSCHWITZ? BIRKENAU? TREBLINKA?"

Snotty Internet German: "Bbbbut, bbbbut that is UNFAIR, I am not having had been born then!!!"

Me: "General Westmoreland never visited me at St. Columbanus Catholic grammar school to consult on war policy, but that doesn't seem to have stopped YOU."

A smarmy Brit started running his mouth about "friendly fire" casualties in the first Gulf War, and "burying alive" armed, resisting Iraqi soldiers using mineplows. I just asked him to give me the number of friendly fire incidents attributed to the RAF in the period bounded by one month before and one month after the Battle of Britain. I then asked him what happened to the first set of P-38 speed brakes sent to the USAAF in Britain. Finally, I asked him what happened to the German soldiers in their fortifications at the Battles of Cambrai and Normandy when they encountered British tanks... and flamethrowers. He was oddly unresponsive...

Deanimator
August 2, 2007, 01:31 PM
Sounds exactly like her, beforehand she was trying to talk politics according to some book. etc etc.

Probably some mendacious gibberish by Noam Chomsky.

Talking politics by referring to Chomsky is like discussing astronautics by referring to a Flash Gordon serial.

30 cal slob
August 2, 2007, 01:39 PM
it's amazing how deafening the silence is when a euro anti is asked what he or she would do at the moment of truth.

you might ask:

Two bad guys have just finished raping your daughters in the bedrooms. They are dousing the rooms with petrol and are about to burn your daughters alive. Your wife is being strangled and doused with gasoline too.

What do you do?*


*this is basically what happened during that horrible Cheshire, Connecticut home invasion a few weeks ago.

funny thing is, they almost never answer the question, as if to duck the issue.

instead, they'll deflect and bleat about collectively and in the social abstract, guns are a very bad thing.

maybe i'm a bit strange, but this particular thought probably doesn't cross one's mind as one's family is being viciously attacked.

Ghost Tracker
August 2, 2007, 01:39 PM
These foolish people will ALWAYS exist. They'll also be the FIRST to run, hide & quiver behind an armed man who has the skill, courage, tools & disposition to overlook their folly & save their fanny.

That's the ONLY way there are any of them left. Well, that or Darwin was...WRONG.

barman
August 2, 2007, 01:45 PM
What has been harming Europe in the last decades was that moral relativism was fashionable among intellectuals. Since they got the press coverage and the mainstream exposure, it has led to a deep rift in society between the rural world and the urban one, the elite and the working class.

I think that very recently we have been progessively experiencing an opposite trend. Western Europe seems to become more and more conservative on many issues. There is a surge of patriotism. Just look at the shifting of power, from people like Chirac and Shroeder to Sarkozy and Merkel. There is even an increase of churchgoing in the face of the current Islamic threat.

30 cal slob
August 2, 2007, 01:47 PM
interesting.

how does one connect Moral Relativism to being anti-gun?

barman
August 2, 2007, 02:21 PM
It's a a by-product of the 60s. It gave birth to the "law abiding citizen no better than a criminal" mentality.

I think (maybe I'm wrong) it's all about discharging any responsability for your actions on the way society shaped your way of thinking. Think Rousseau. Lots of people will try to understand the criminal's motivation before understanding the motivations of the person defending his turf or his life.

Moral relativists believe that everything can be resolved through dialogue, thus guns are inherently counter-productive. They believe that if each person understands the other person's position, conflict will evaporate.

A gun owner who's ready to use his gun in order to protect his life is obviously defending his own position to an extreme and obviously does not believe that dialogue can solve all problems.


NOW I'm sounding pedantic, ain't I? :D

cambeul41
August 2, 2007, 02:38 PM
Pedantic, perhaps. But it makes sense.

Nolo
August 2, 2007, 02:44 PM
I like to think of myself as a relatively prejudice-free man (which, if you knew me, would make you laugh hysterically. In truth, I only allow myself one prejudice, purely for my own enjoyment and related to no facts or anything else, and that is of the French [sorry barman]), so I'd like to say that there are no "European Antis" or "French Antis" or anything else. Cultural, racial, and sectional adjectives are meaningless, there are only people, no European people or Asian people or anything else. having said that, there is an extreme sectionalism that exists in the Old World, and, it seems to me, that it is slowly invading our country. Which disturbs me. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

barman
August 2, 2007, 02:54 PM
having said that, there is an extreme sectionalism that exists in the Old World, and, it seems to me, that it is slowly invading our country. Which disturbs me. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.


Nolo, you know what, the feeling is mutual.
It's globalisation.
If only people could just stay the way they are without being exposed to constant external influence, the world wouldn't be as ****ed up as it is nowadays.


I very often say to people: I don't hate any ethnic group in particular, in fact I like most of them when they stay at home and don't try to change my way of life.

iapetus
August 2, 2007, 03:03 PM
Admittedly I've never gone around asking people "If someone was trying to rape/murder your mother, would you be willing to shoot the perp to stop him?"

But I am sure that if I did, answers like that given by this girl would be a very, very tiny minority. Even in Europe.

30 cal slob
August 2, 2007, 03:34 PM
i'm not sure it boils down to "what makes sense" for antis.

rather, i have a hunch a lot can be explained by how they feel.

Ghost Tracker
August 2, 2007, 04:21 PM
Moral Relativism isn't just a European trend. I suggest we get them all together so they can fly to Iran and address the Islamic Extremism issue with a nice dialogue. If it works? GREAT! If it doesn't...then we're rid of them & it kinda' shoots their theory in the foot.

TooTaxed
August 2, 2007, 04:26 PM
You have to remember...there are foolish young things just like her here in the United States.

Regrettably. And they will vote here. :banghead::banghead:

TooTaxed
August 2, 2007, 04:26 PM
You have to remember...there are foolish young things just like her here in the United States.

Regrettably. And they will vote here. :banghead::banghead:

Houston Tom
August 2, 2007, 05:28 PM
I think it is a cutural thing that exiest in Europe and I am afraid coming here as well that the government can/should take care of you. I was in Brussels a couple of years ago and ended up spending time in this english pub lots of expats both english and others. When they learned I was from Texas they all told me how they watched Dallas (go figure) and eventually the conversation got around to guns, did I have any, how many when I told them about how many I had they were floored and I was asked what if someone broke into my home they were eaually dismaid at my answer 'I would shot them". Then one asked why I would not run out the back and call the police that is their job. The more we talked the more it became clear that self reliance, responsibility and the home is your castle thing was a concept they could not in any way understand. THe only one there that understood was an Aussie and he told me don't let them do to you guys (Americans) what they did to us and take our guns.

Houston Tom
August 2, 2007, 05:30 PM
:banghead:

Ghost Tracker
August 2, 2007, 06:17 PM
Any Government powerful enough to give you everything you want...is powerful enough to take away everything that you have.

Thomas Jefferson*
(* I think. I was either him or a "Hillary in '08" Bumper Sticker)

matt87
August 2, 2007, 06:34 PM
Not all 'Europeans' are of that opionon I would point out. Not all British too. I am British. My passport has 'European' on the front cover (:vom:). I support and believe in the RKBA. Ditto my girlfriend. My dad has some sort of Doublethink where he sort of supports gun control but wants to be able to own a firearm for home defense. Dad didn't teach me to think that way, he and mum taught me to think for myself (Well, perhaps Mum less so).

When I met my girlfriend she was fairly fence-sitting erring on the side of being pro, but had the typical 'them AMericans and their guns' atitude we get far too much of over here. She enjoyed what shooting she'd done (her dad's airguns mainly). I discussed (firearms) things with her when they came up but left her to her own decisions. Couple of months ago, she was rather dismayed to find out it would be illegal for her to own a gun for home defense in this country... and once or twice we have discussed the possibility of emigrating. (Not able to yet; things aren't bad enough for us to sever our many ties, plus we have other commitments.) I introduced her to my rifle club and she loves it and is a very promising shot...

In conclusion, I think we have a similar situation to you in the US with regards to pro/anti; some die-hard antis, a certain number of pros, but the vast majority being fence-sitters. Some may fall on the anti side and be swayed by emotive words and phrases yet be re-educated without too much effort, some may fall on the pro side but be persuaded to turn in their 28"-barelled O/U 12-bore they use for shooting clays without much emtional rhetoric. The difference is, how many people fall on which side of the fence, and how much they can affect the guberment.

Ghost Tracker
August 2, 2007, 06:45 PM
My stance hasn't the foggiest thing to do with the Sporting Purpose of Firearms. It has to do with the fact that the Police have the job of investigating crime & arresting criminals. It's NOT their job to protect me or to stop crime as it's happening. It's MY job to protect myself, my family & my property. And that's MUCH easier with several guns. An armed populace also deters attack from other countries (ask the Japanese in WWII). Lastly, I fear any government that fears my firearms.

matt87
August 2, 2007, 07:00 PM
Who said anything about sporting purpose? I've followed much of this thread and don't remember a single instance. I certainly didn't mention sport other than a brief mention of clays and target rifle. The point of my post (which I hope you'll appreciate if you'd read it) is that not all Euros/Brits are government-worshipping spineless slaves who would not defend themselves. RKBA is a natural extension of this, it's just that re-education (possible) is required.

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