Buy in PA, Live in NJ


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Rainsford
July 31, 2007, 03:39 PM
Ahoy! I've lurked on The High Road forums for a while now, and figured I'd ask a legal question to see if you guys catch any laws that I couldn't find

Before you ask, I live in NJ because I currently live with my parents. I'll be off to college in a year, and the closest I'd ever care to live to the NJ govt. is over the border in Pennsylvania. Moving on, my father has only recently been convinced that firearms are not evil tools of crazy people, and is willing to allow a firearm in his home.

New Jersey's gun freedoms are greatly restricted. As some of you may know, any individual seeking to purchase a firearm in New Jersey is required to apply for a firearms purchaser's permit, or "FID". As a bit of an anti-big-government guy, I want to avoid putting up with the NJ state govt.'s crap.

My plan to avoid the FID is to simply buy a firearm in nearby Pennsylvania and bring it home to NJ.

I've done a good amount of research, and have found no laws against my plan. It is legal to possess, operate, and even transport (to certain designated areas) a firearm without an FID in NJ. NJ gun law also states that it is legal to transport a firearm across state lines into NJ so long as the firearm is properly secured (in the trunk, unloaded, locked, etc).

Having done my research, it looks to me like a sound plan. Gun laws, however, are not particularly easy to comprehend in full, so I ask you, members of The High Road community, is it illegal for me to buy a firearm in PA and bring it to NJ, preferably without an NJ-FID?


My main source, by the way is NRA-ILA (http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/)'s website. I understand it's not necessarily as accurate as reading the actual legal docs, but it's far easier to understand.

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Dave Markowitz
July 31, 2007, 03:45 PM
In order for you to purchase a firearm in one state, you must do so in compliance with the laws of your home state. IOW, in order to purchase a firearm in PA, you must first have a FID in NJ.

igpoobah
July 31, 2007, 04:03 PM
Yup, yer screwed.

geekWithA.45
July 31, 2007, 04:18 PM
Ayup. You're not getting around the FID.

You can buy a _long_ gun in another state from an FFL, but the FFL must adhere to Federal Law, His State's Law, and Your State's law.

The only way to (legally) get a gun without a FID in NJ is to inherit it, or own it before you move into the state.

And yes, lawerly readings of the law will tell you that there are some circumstances under which you can technically posess a gun in NJ w/out a FID.

Don't think for a minute that this will prevent your arrest or conviction, however.

NavyLCDR
July 31, 2007, 04:20 PM
Are you talking handgun or long rifle? Handguns can only be purchased within your state of residence - or they can be purchased out of state and shipped to an FFL within your state and then that FFL will require you to meet all state laws prior to turning the handgun over to you.

Also, you must abide by the laws for purchasing in the state in which you are purchasing the firearm, edited - I was wrong - AND your home state as well - however in order to possess that firearm in your home state, you must meet the requirements of your home state.

Personally, I wouldn't do this in a million years, it's just asking for LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of trouble. Say Hi to Bubba for me in jail.

charlie505
July 31, 2007, 04:26 PM
...

Rainsford
July 31, 2007, 04:34 PM
Curses... Thanks for pointing that out to me, guys. Can anyone point to the specific law, for me?

Edit:NavyLT, I'm interested in a longarm. NJ's handgun regulations are insane.

DogBonz
July 31, 2007, 04:36 PM
Greatings from the 5th ring of Hades.

is it illegal for me to buy a firearm in PA and bring it to NJ, preferably without an NJ-FID?

Yes. It is illegal. Highly illegal at that. You cannot posses a gun (pistol or rifle) in the peoples republik of NJ with out a FID. You cannot buy, posses, or transfer a firearm with out a FID card. Don't even think about it. And as if that was not enough, you need a purchase permit for each and every pistol that you buy or own and a copy of that permit must acompany that pistol with you if you leave your house with it.

I can't wait to get outta here!

NavyLCDR
July 31, 2007, 04:37 PM
(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the personís own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

This is from BATF's FAQs.

Librarian
July 31, 2007, 04:44 PM
You can't bring it in:
18 USC 922 (a) (3): it shall be unlawful (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;Dealer can't sell it to you (a)(5) 5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides

GRIZ22
July 31, 2007, 04:58 PM
And do a private purchase/sale

Doing this as a NJ resident would also violate Federal law. You can only buy a long gun out of state from a dealer. Handguns in PA go thru a dealer even if it's a private sale (correct me if I'm wrong PA residents).

Crunker1337
July 31, 2007, 05:04 PM
I will be in a similar position to you in a couple of years OP.

This is not legal advice.

You have to have an NJ FOID (Firearm Owners ID) to legally purchase a long gun in PA and bring it to NJ. (Obviously, this long gun must be NJ-legal.)
However, I think it's okay to purchase a long gun in PA without an NJ FOID as long as you don't bring it into NJ.

I don't think getting an FOID is that big of a deal, why not just get one and save yourself from all the potential legal trouble?

DogBonz
July 31, 2007, 05:17 PM
I don't think getting an FOID is that big of a deal, why not just get one and save yourself from all the potential legal trouble?

here is what you have to do:

First call your local police office and tell them that you need a FID card. Don’t just walk in because most PD’s only do it by appointment, and the appointments are usually like 10-1 on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. If you just walk in, you will most likely be greated by blank stares. You will then have to go in and fill out the forms. Bring the names and addresses of two “upstanding citizens” who are not related to you. Make sure that they will vouch for you. They will get forms in the mail asking questions about you. If they don’t send the forms back, you don’t get a FID card… so choose wisely. You will then get finger printed. You will need to pay the cops by check or money order, so be sure to bring your check book (and your Vaseline). Provided that you filled the forms out right, your references vouch for you, your payment clears, and the cops don’t “loose” your forms, you will get a phone call (in 6-8 weeks) to come down to the PD and pick up your FID card, which you will have to sign and thumb print in front of an officer. Then you can go and buy a rifle…

elrod
July 31, 2007, 07:02 PM
Rainsford
I live in New Jersey because I currently live with my parents. I will be off to college in a year,

I may be jumping to conculsions from the above quote, but are you of legal age????:confused:

and the closest I'd care to live to the NJ govt. is over the border in Pennsylvania.

If I am correct in my assumption (yeah, I know), you should be able to establish legal residence in Penn. before you reach the age of majority. Am I anywhere close to being right???;)

Car Knocker
July 31, 2007, 07:41 PM
but are you of legal age????
As long as he is 18+, he's OK as far as the Feds are concerned for buying a long gun from a dealer, 21+ for a handgun. Private party sales of handguns are federally OK for 18+. State laws vary.

geekWithA.45
July 31, 2007, 08:20 PM
Whether there's a crafty loophole or not, no PA FFL will sell any gun to anyone with an NJ license unless they also have a FID.

If you were an FFL, would YOU believe the guy who said he wasn't going to take his NJ unlawful gun home?

geekWithA.45
July 31, 2007, 08:22 PM
Handguns in PA go thru a dealer even if it's a private sale (correct me if I'm wrong PA residents).


Well, you can save the FFL fee if you want to go to the county sherriff's office, who can do the transfer for free.

DBabsJr
July 31, 2007, 08:23 PM
you need a purchase permit for each and every pistol that you buy or own and a copy of that permit must acompany that pistol with you if you leave your house with it.

Is it true that you have to have a copy of the permit with you? I've never seen that before...

yhtomit
July 31, 2007, 09:23 PM
Are you going to college in another state? If Yes, I'd recommend saving yourself the hassle of NJ FID :)

PA really is a decent state wrt firearms laws generally. But if you're a NJ resident, I think you're out of luck in benefiting from PA's laws.

timothy

geekWithA.45
July 31, 2007, 10:31 PM
Is it true that you have to have a copy of the permit with you?

No.

Sistema1927
July 31, 2007, 11:09 PM
Do yourself a favor and move to a free state.

You are young enough and resilient enough that you can do it. A young man could do a whole lot worse than to cut the apron strings and go out on his own.

Rainsford
August 1, 2007, 12:51 AM
Do yourself a favor and move to a free state.

You are young enough and resilient enough that you can do it. A young man could do a whole lot worse than to cut the apron strings and go out on his own.Believe me, I plan on it. As I stated in the OP, I'm headed to college next fall and don't plan on living in NJ much longer after that.

I'm sick of paying heaps of taxes to a state government that I see relatively little benefit from. The roads are relatively well maintained, but poorly designed and traffic is terrible. The police are hard to deal with. The education is not particularly good, no matter what the test grades tell you. Relative crime rates to police budgets are poor. Not to say that I believe the theory of these govt. programs, but their execution is crap anyway...

I may be jumping to conculsions from the above quote, but are you of legal age????As two weeks ago I am.

Tom488
August 1, 2007, 03:02 AM
Yes. It is illegal. Highly illegal at that. You cannot posses a gun (pistol or rifle) in the peoples republik of NJ with out a FID.
Not true. NJS 2C:39-6e permits the possession of a firearm in your residence/on your property. 2C:39-6f permits you to transport said firearm to/from a range. It is this very law which 99.9% of us fall under when taking handguns to a range, because otherwise, 2C:39-5b says that possession of a handgun without a permit to carry is illegal.

As a resident of NJ, you need an FID to acquire a long gun in ANY state, or to possess one OUTSIDE of the exemptions specified in 2C:39-6.

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