[Dave Williams]

Guys here's a link to the coolest combat shotgun match on the planet.

I didn't make it this year for some reason, but I plan on it in '08.

Be sure to watch the videos they are great.

http://www.ashlandlakegunclub.org/FranMan/2007_scrap_book.html

Dave Williams

[Dave McCracken]

Nice COF, a couple things...

I'd feel better if I knew all the shooters and other persons on the line had eye and ear protection.

Note the flash on the second shooter. That was in daylight. Imagine doing that in low light with that much flash.

Once again, I urge folks to do low light training with the weapon AND ammo they will use in a real emergency....

[Titan6]

So true about the low light shooting. Dave do you have any tips on that? My experience is strictly the military.

That said Francis Marion is my only Revolutionary War era ancestor (very loose relation) and I might have to come out in '09. Looks like loads of fun.

[Dave McCracken]

Titan....

Software:
The best thing is to shoot some low light COFs. Some folks do this by wearing welder's goggles in ordinary light, some by training at dusk and dawn.

Hardware:
Tritium, F/O or plain beads dressed with bright paint help. Ammo with less flash can be found, I've some old Estate and new Federal stuff with little flash from a 18" barrel. Some Remington 00 here is earmarked for training because of the fireball.

A bit more barrel oft means way less flash. The 20" barrel on my BU HD 870 has less flash with the Estate 00 than the 18" barrel on my HD 870.

HTH.....

[arcticap]

That looks very interesting. :)

[Titan6]

I have not heard of the welder's goggles idea, it is a good one. I can barely see a thing with a welders mask on unless I am running the welder.

I already use new Federal out of a 20'' barrel. It is as you say with very little flash. The federal is also super reliable and runs well out of my shot guns.

Now that I think about it I have never had to perform any clearing of jams in the dark either. I need to try that a couple of times.

[stevelyn]

I like the chest harness ammo carrier one of the guys is wearing.

What is that? Where can I get one?

[Dave Williams]

BTT

This is coming up at the end of the month, hope to see some of you there.

I'll be the guy with the shotgun!:eek:

Dave Williams

[Dave Williams]

Just got in from the Swamp Match, gotta go to work, but real quick it was a great match, very taxing. Great folks put out a lot of effort to run this match.

My 13yr old son, who I've posted about before, beat me handily on one stage. The RO said gleefully, "I guess when I need to call the police I'll call your son!" LOL

Pics and vids to follow.

Dave Williams

[Dave McCracken]

Awaiting pics. Thanks...

[Mannlicher]

not that looks like fun., I need a new shotgun :eek:

[Dave Williams]

stevelyn,

Had a chance to ask that guy about the chest rig, he said it was a discontinued Blackhawk. I googled and found a similar version here:

http://www.landsharktactical.com/shotgun.htm

[Dave Williams]

The match this year (2008) was divided up into 3 stages: the swamp stage, the woods stage, and the long range stage. The theme this year was ZOMBIES. :eek:

SWAMP STAGE
You began by pulling a dummy down into a muddy stream bed, up a short rise, and then you stashed him in the weeds to hide him from the ZOMBIES. You then crawled through a mud filled tunnel ( this caused some serious problems for my son......the mag clamp/sling attachment on his 870 came loose and he lost the back slung 870 in the tunnel.....when he emerged from the tunnel he was sans 870!:banghead:....he had to crawl back in to retrieve the gun, which was caked in mud and had a 4ft nylon sling trailing behind it......he was OK until he used the mud caked rounds in his sidesaddle for his reload......the gun experienced sticky extraction afterwards and he had to slam the butt of the 870 on the ground several times to keep the gun functioning....we were all extemely proud of him for staying in the fight despite extreme frustration....it was a tremendous learning opportunity!!!) took up a position of cover and then the timer started. You engaged several poppers from cover, and then moved through a course through elephant grass, including jumping over a muddy hole about 4ft across. All the while engaging hostile steel poppers and plates representing ZOMBIES, reloading from cover and shooting on the move. GREAT STAGE!

WOODS STAGE
You began on your butt on the side of a hill, as if you just slid down the hill. You engage a popper to your immediate front, and then you began an uphill move, engaging hostile ZOMBIES as you went. You reach cover, and then have to deal with 6 hostiles in the riverbed to your front. This presented the opportunity for weakside fire, and you were given props if you used your weakside around cover. I ran dry weakhanded and transitioned to my right hand for the reload then switched back to weakhand for shooting.....why???? I've never practiced reloading weakhanded, only shooting.....You will not do what you have not trained to do under stress! I wasted quite a bit of time doing this. And this match is very stressful and that is the reason I am such a big proponent of competition shooting being a form of combat training. After you dispatch these you move to cover and engage 3 ZOMBIES which were about 30-50 yards away with slugs. EXCELLENT STAGE! and my boy beat me on this stage. I can't even describe how proud of him I am for his NO QUIT attitude.

LONG RANGE STAGE
You begin with your shotgun in the backseat of your car, slug in the chamber, 4rds buck in the tube, safety on. Unass the car, grab the shotgun, engage a distant ZOMBIE with the slug, about 90yds. Move to a 6ft wall, scale it halfway and engage 4 poppers. Move to prone cover, load up with slugs, and engage 4 ZOMBIES at about 70yds. Engage two lateral movers with slugs, then load up with buck, crawl through another tunnel and engage 5 low ZOMBIES (lollipops)with buck, kneel for a quick topoff, move to cover and engage another 4 ZOMBIES (lollipops), topoff and move to kneeling cover and engage another 3 ZOMBIES (1 popper, 2 swingers) two of which were moving side to side. Ditch the shotgun, grab a machete and lop off your buddie's arm to free him from the ZOMBIES, do a battlefield pickup on his SW M19 and shoot 6 ZOMBIES (platerack) in the head. LONG STAGE! There were 16 buck targets on this stage and my son began the stage with 16rds of buck left, he did not miss once!:D


EQUIPMENT USED
My boy used a 18.5" 870 Youth 20ga with a Choate +2 and a 4rd Sidesaddle, bead sight, nylon carrystrap sling. He used WW #3 Buck and Remington Slugger slugs.

I used my work gun, a 14" 870P 12ga, modified choke, Speedfeed III stock, bead sight, CSM singlepoint sling with a MI sling plate. WW Slugs and 00 Buck. I LOVE THIS SETUP The only thing missing is a Surefire forend and that is coming soon.

We shared a tactical vest with 2 6x6 utility pouches mounted on each side low, and a 9rd shell loop section high left chest. He experienced some shells falling out of the left 6x6 in the woods stage. This vest was less than optimal and we will be upgrading our equipment. The guy who wins every year uses a simple shell bandolier and a belt pouch.

I saw some cool gear, including the much talked about Knoxx collapsible stock. It's owner really liked it. Also, I saw the vaunted 20" Wingmaster rifle sighted barrel with RemChoke. One guy had a 14" Benelli M1S90 with ghost rings. Nice stuff. The perennial winner uses a 590 with ghost rings, pistolgrip buttstock, and a Surefire forend. I'm pretty sure he practices alot too;) hmmmm I wonder if there is a connection?

Pump guns rule this match, and the RO likes to gloat about making autos choke in the swamp. But you have to test your equipment out.....we saw a few pump gun shooters with ammo/shotgun reliablity problems....basically the ammo they'd bought/brought didn't work too well with their guns, and they were forced to do the old butt slam on the ground malfunction reduction technique. I wonder how many guns aren't compatible with the ammo their owners have bought for home defense duty and the owners don't even know it???? Probably a lot. Gotta test your gun/ammo combination.

My training partners and I are sold on pistol grip shoulder stocks. They offer a tremedous amount of control for situations such as:reloads at the pointed in position, manuevering with the gun in one hand and doing something with the off hand - something which is very common in the real world(crawling/opening a door or window/handling a suspect), weapon retention, standing at slung ready(like on a perimeter/or guard duty).

Also, I really like my single point sling. The staff are not fans of "tactical" slings, but this CSM unit did not impede me at all. Attached at the buttstock/reciever junction, the sling leaves the forend/loading areas free of clutter found with 3pt slings. Also, offside transitions are very easy with this setup. It is half bungee, half nylon strap.

When my son's gun became caked with mud, luckily I had my friendly neighborhood (late) Remington Armorer to strip and clean it for us......Thanks! He mentioned the inability to strip out the trigger assembly due to the sidesaddle screws......just something to think about.

LESSONS LEARNED
This type of shooting really gets the "Jazz"(learned this phrase from Dave Harrington) flowing, meaning adrenaline. This is the closest thing you can get to combat conditions for the average shooter. Lessons learned in these type of situations engrain themselves into your subconscious. These opportunities are invaluable.

This type of competition is strenuous, and you will get muddy, wet, bruised, scraped, and tired! What more can you ask for!?

This is the second time I've seen dirty ammo introduced into the gun cause functioning problems. It's critical with these guns that they get fed relatively clean ammo. Even though it's a pump, it'll still choke.

You have to train yourself to run the forend to the rear the moment the shot breaks, every time. I saw alot of delay between shot and running the forend, myself included. I also saw alot of "click" instead of "bang" due to the same thing.

It's critical that you be able to "combat load" a shotgun. It is so much faster than the method of: 1-insert round into mag tube, 2-hit action release/run the forend. Speed is important! Don't let anyone tell you that "1 method is easier to remember"......dominate the gun!

If you shoot a semi auto, you better practice with it. While in my opinion the properly maintained semi auto is a good combat arm, they seem to require a more dedicated practitioner than the old pump gun.

The best shooters are the ones who shoot alot.......BA/UU/R!

CONCLUSION
This match is highly recommended to all members here interested in the Combat Shotgun. It would be great if we could have a THR contingent next year. There was an excellent cookout after the match and it was just a great time all around. There appears to be camping facilities available, contact the gun club in reference to that.

I would like to thank the staff on behalf of myself and my son and my friends. We had a great time.

Pics/Vids to follow,

Dave Williams

[Gordon]

Wow Dave, makes we want to go to Ohio (my CCW IS good there!) maybe during whitetail season also!

[Dave Williams]

It would be great if you would come out, I know you'd have a blast.

I know you've been in elephant grass with a gauge before, so you'd feel right at home.

Dave

[sm]

Dave Williams,

I really appreciate your sharing of this event!
I also appreciate whoever that fella was that taught that 13 year old son of yours to shoot and stay in the fight. *wink*


I always read your posts, pay attention to what you have to share and you have taught me a lot.

Umm, is that son of yours a member here by chance?
*whups, did I type that*

The real deal events, sure do find out what works, what does not, and confirms anything can and will break - and Mr. Murphy never sleeps.

Steve

[Dave Williams]

Thanks sm! Right back at you.

Dave Williams

[Okiecruffler]

Okay, zombies aside, that sounds like the first "real world" match I've come across. Makes me wonder how a fella with a SXS would fare. Interesting thought.


Still say the ultimate zombie tool is the machete, no reloads.

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, Dave. Sounds like great fun, good training to boot.

Mud makes more than Marines...

[KiltedClaymore]

looks like a good way to get bit by a snake. or carried off by mosquitos :neener:.


but im a desert rat, i dont take well to swamps.

[Dave Williams]

Okie, running a double or single would be fun to watch someone do, and there was a machete in action, as soon as my picture guy gets off his rear and posts them you will see.

KC, I was worried about the bug issue also, and we doused ourselves in bug spray, had no problems.

Dave, it was a lot of fun, thanks,

Dave Williams

[KiltedClaymore]

do they have a desert version of this? the desert fox shotgun run?

[Dave Williams]

Okay here is a pic of my boy's 870 after a run in the swamp:

[Dave Williams]

You said to put some wear on it Dave.

Dave Williams

[Dave McCracken]

Git a big ol' grin after seeing that pic.

Some guns clean up real good.

[Dave Williams]

Here is a link to the video of my boy in the swamp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yolxb9rk1A

Dave Williams

[Dave Williams]

Here is a link to a video of yours truly in the swamp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOrk9uR3i2U

Dave Williams

[Dave Williams]

I think the dogs barking and gunfire in the background adds a nice touch to these video clips.

Dave Williams

[Dave Williams]

Here is a link to a video of my boy in the woods stage. This is the stage he beat his old man on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLJwNx0GXKA

Dave Williams

[JShirley]

Dave,

Your son has a good attitude.

[Dave Williams]

JShirley,

Thanks for the kind words.

Dave Williams

[Dave Williams]

Okie, here is a pic of a ZOMBIE, you can see the machete stuck in the log, it was used to lop off his hand:

[Dave Williams]

Here is a link to a video of yours truly in the woods stage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_MuNL9OHEw

Dave Williams

[meh92]

Sorry about the wait Dave. Things are busy here out East.

Here are some pics of the filth from the swamp. The last two are Dave on the woods stage. Notice that weak-side cover technique! The last pic shows how the targets are relatively hidden out in the brush. At least friendlies were orange.

[Dave Williams]

You will pay for your slacking with free gunsmithing!

Thanks,

Dave

[meh92]

Here's the 100 yd. stage. You start in a car and blast a slug on an IPSC target using the car for cover (see the bumper in the 1st pic). Then run to a wall and engage poppers from the wall. Next is a run to low cover to shoot IPSC's at about 60 yds. Next is the mover. You can see it in the middle pic, but my lazy photographer (Dave) neglected to post a pic of it in motion (down the ramp). The last pic is where you engage the mover.

[meh92]

Next is squeezing (for some of us) through a drain tube and engaging plates from the other side. Next is a run to right-side cover to engage more plates. This picture shows the mover after it has come to rest. After that is a run to a popper which engages two swingers, which are the orange plates. You can see the fallen popper between them.

[meh92]

Free gunsmithing??? Is there any other kind with you!!!

The invoice for field-expedient cleaning of a 20ga Remington 870 is in the mail. I'll also include a small bottle of blue loctite for properly installing a foerward sling clamp.

:)

[meh92]

I don't have any pictures of the swamp course. It was pretty close-quarters in the reeds and having two camera-men would have been too big of a shooting-train. I think the RSO was very cool about having the video camera follow and I didn't want to push it. The other stages were more out in the open and it was easier to safely follow the shooter with a few cameras.

[Dave McCracken]

MAN, I'd love to do this. Of course, I'd have to settle for the slowest time. Don't do fast any more.

Great pics guys. Thanks...

[sm]

meh92, Dave Williams -

I really and truly appreciate this thread and the pictures!
Thank you ever so much!

meh92, about them pictures that were not taken-
Well you know how them fellers that run short shotguns are...*snicker*
Hard to find good help these days...

Oh I am "seeing" more than the pictures are showing, yes indeed!

Oh and the picture of Dave's son - priceless!
Contrast that one with the one often posted with "Don't worry sir, I am from teh Intrawebz caption.

Dave's son's picture should have : One cannot buy skill and targets under it.
This is great!
Okay, post more pictures and Course of Fire.

Heck, I would like to run this thing with a single shot shotgun.
I won't win, but I would have a lot of fun!

Steve

[Okiecruffler]

Okay, maybe the coolest thing I've ever seen. I've got to try that sometime.
And Dave, I'll bet you could beat my time by a bit, especially now with the bionic hip. I'd blame my time on using the SXS. That's my story, I'm sticking with it.

[Dave McCracken]

Dunno about that John, but it'd be fun to try.

I'd use Number One, made in 1950. We'd be a shoo in for the prize for oldest combined ages of weapon and gunner.

120 years....

[Big D]

What magazine extension is that on your son's 870?

[Dave Williams]

That is a Choate +2, I got it from Tanks Rifle Shop. It came with a clamp, spring, follower, and tube. Make sure you lock tite the screw on the clamp:)

Dave Williams

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Great pics man! Gotta give your son a big pat on the back for his trigger finger control in that pic.

Its refreshing to see someone using a tuned up 20 gauge in a fight like that. Great pics!

[Dave Williams]

BattleChimp Potemkin,

Thanks for the kind words.

The staff at the Swamp Match said that 20ga Buck hits harder than low recoil 12ga Buck, so I don't think there is any thing a 12ga can do that the 20ga can't. His gun is a slick little blaster, it handles real nice.

20ga does have a big downside in that there is no cheap 20ga Buck available (S&B, Rio, Wolf, Noble, etc) like there is for 12. Cheapest I have seen is $21/25rds.

Dave Williams

[Dave Williams]

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Ironmaker4


Here is a link to vids with other shooters, in all three stages of the match.

Fun to watch.

Dave Williams

[DaleCooper51]

Dave -

That event looks like a blast. Just wish I had something local like it.

Just one question, why did they not allow topping off the gun on the move?

Dale

ETA: That pic of your son muddied up is a great pic.

[Dave Williams]

DaleCooper51,

My guess is they want you hauling tail to cover. I wanted to reload on the move but was yelled at for it.

Another thing we didn't like was they didn't allow you to carry slugs on your body. They staged your slugs at stations where there was slug shooting, and when it was time to slug up, you voided your tube of buck and did so, and when it was time to buck up, you voided your tube of slugs and did so.

We are pretty sure this is to avoid people shooting steel up close with slugs, and that is understandable from a safety/steel target longevity issue, but it sucks if you are using this match as tactical training.

Dave Williams

[meh92]

I'm glad you guys liked the pics. It's a great match. It's usually held on the last Saturday in July...rain or shine, so plan for it next year.

As far as old guns go, I have an old Cleveland PD Remington model 11 I'd love to use but I just couldn't bear to bang it up in a match like this. It's in remarkably good condition (maybe a range gun?) and dragging it through the mud just isn't something I'd want to do to the old girl. Maybe one of these days I'll buy a beater model 11 just to drag around in the mud on late July mornings.