Help me influence a friend.


PDA






helpless
August 1, 2007, 01:20 PM
As with many of my views I don't have a better answer to the gun ownership thing. I don't believe in it-keeping guns. There is NO failsafe way to keep gun owners responsible. Children get shot by other children daily b/c of irresponsible gun owners. and concealed weapons should definitely NOT be allowed, if our society gets to a place where we need to arm ourselves against the government then permits aren't gonna matter, so why do we need to carry guns on us now? I don't think that taking away everyones gun is the answer. I don't want them in my house (my kids aren't allowed to play w/ toy guns.), and I want the strictest legislation possible. I just think there are too many nut jobs out there brandishing fire power. And weapons are too easily, illegally attained by juvenilles who really don't understand the consequenses of their actions. Life and death aren't so black and white when your 14.

This is the message I got back after replying to a political rant a friend sent out. I am not sure if she know I carry. I do not think so. It seems like maybe there might be hope.

I replied with the basics with out trying to drill anything in permit holders are more responsible... background checks... Here previous message said that it is not a hunter gatherer society...

So what do you guys think? Some links? She might be floored to learn that I carry, it might help change her perspective, though I would rather keep it concealed if you know what I mean.

How can I ease this person into the right frame of mind and away from the "It's for the Children" mentality.

If you enjoyed reading about "Help me influence a friend." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
News Shooter
August 1, 2007, 01:27 PM
but I quit arguing with anti s a long time ago. It's a waste of good oxygen and the success rate is minimal. Like most things in life it takes some kind of large event to change people's minds on things like this.

I know you want to try to convert her and that's great. Personally I'd not waste my breath. Good luck!

fletcher
August 1, 2007, 01:30 PM
A good step would be to take her shooting.

Here are the logical flaws and poor arguments that I initially see:

There is NO failsafe way to keep gun owners responsible.
Same could be said for anything. People in general, knife owners, car owners, doctors, politicians, etc. This is a given of being a human being.

Children get shot by other children daily b/c of irresponsible gun owners.
This (accidental shootings) could easily be remedied by education instead of educated ignorance. There is no real way other than parental involvement to reduce crime.

concealed weapons should definitely NOT be allowed, if our society gets to a place where we need to arm ourselves against the government then permits aren't gonna matter, so why do we need to carry guns on us now?
Guns are for personal protection also. I think she'd be shocked to learn the entire world is a place where you need to arm yourself. As for arming against the government, nothing matters at that point other than how much time you had to practice with weapons you own before then.

I don't want them in my house
Good. That's your choice.

I just think there are too many nut jobs out there brandishing fire power.
And I think the sky is green. Next.

And weapons are too easily, illegally attained by juvenilles who really don't understand the consequenses of their actions.
Illegal objects of any sort - guns, drugs, pirated media - can be easily obtained by anyone. I'd like to see how she proposes reducing the number of illegal guns.

Life and death aren't so black and white when your 14.
Once again, education.


Seeing as this is a friend of yours, carefully work through the logic of the arguments, show real statistics, take her shooting, and try to slowly expose her to guns (I'm going on a wild guess she's pretty much never touched or seen a gun). It takes a lot of patience and work to bring an anti around, but by all means go for it if you're in a position to do so.

jqbagley
August 1, 2007, 01:32 PM
Since cars kill are very dangerous also, I think your friend should at least be consistent:

As with many of my views I don't have a better answer to the car ownership thing. I don't believe in it-owning cars. There is NO failsafe way to keep car owners responsible. Children get killed daily b/c of irresponsible car owners. and vintage cars (no seat belts, air bags, anti-lock brakes, etc) should definitely NOT be allowed, if our society gets to a place where we need to drive cars then licenses aren't gonna matter, so why do we need to drive a car now? I don't think that taking away everyones car is the answer. I don't want them at my house (my kids aren't allowed to play w/ toy cars.), and I want the strictest legislation possible. I just think there are too many nut jobs out there driving. And cars are too easily, illegally attained by juvenilles who really don't understand the consequenses of their actions. Life and death aren't so black and white when your 14.

helpless
August 1, 2007, 01:37 PM
Thanks for the quick replies guys.

I'm going on a wild guess she's pretty much never touched or seen a gun

She was in the reserves during 911 and was deployed. She is familiar with what she was issued. So this is kind of interesting. I should have mentioned this I guess.

fletcher
August 1, 2007, 01:39 PM
She was in the reserves during 911 and was deployed. She is familiar with what she was issued. So this is kind of interesting.

Very interesting. Was that her first and/or only exposure to guns? Also, was she this anti before 9/11?

helpless
August 1, 2007, 01:40 PM
I didnt know her then. This is why I feel there might be hope.

fletcher
August 1, 2007, 01:44 PM
OK. It looks like her primary concerns are accidental shootings, youth violence, and general fear.

I'm especially interested in the contradiction of comments between how she thinks too many nutjobs out there have too much firepower, and how she doesn't believe we're in a society where we need to arm ourselves. There's some connection missing here. If those "nutjobs" were legitimately dangerous, she would feel the need to arm herself. If not, then why would she concern herself with such things?

A little chat in person is about the best you can do to clarify why she feels this way.

helpless
August 1, 2007, 01:47 PM
Yes, I will see her in the next few days and I just want a few strong points to address her concerns and that is what you guys are giving me.

joab
August 1, 2007, 01:47 PM
She was in the reserves during 911 and was deployed. She is familiar with what she was issued. So this is kind of interesting. I should have mentioned this I guess.Doesn't count, she was with the government then

Interesting that she applies the need for guns to combating the government and not the thugs and murderers that we see daily on the news.

The second amendment is not about combating the government any more than it is about hunting or self defense or domestic defense

It encompasses all of these

Koos Custodiet
August 1, 2007, 01:50 PM
>I don't believe in it-keeping guns.

No worries. That's your right.

>There is NO failsafe way to keep gun owners responsible.

There is no failsafe way of anything. Everything fails, eventually. Some things are safer than others, and guns are safer than cars (or, when it comes to toddlers, guns are safer than buckets).

>Children get shot by other children daily b/c of irresponsible gun owners.

Crap. Sorry, I mean, Bull.. erm, sorry, there's no High Road answer to this. Crap. 365 accidental children shot by other children a year? Here in SA we have lotsa gun deaths and real "children shooting children" might be 3/year. Unless you count under 18 gansta stuff. And that's not what this is about.

>and concealed weapons should definitely NOT be allowed, if our society
>gets to a place where we need to arm ourselves against the government
>then permits aren't gonna matter, so why do we need to carry guns on us
>now?

I'm not arming myself against government with a concealed weapon. I'm arming myself against government's lack of ability to control crime against my person and against the people I like being around. Because I'm the potential victim, not government. Because I may die, not government. Because I'm the one with the money to be stolen at gunpoint, not government.

>I don't think that taking away everyones gun is the answer.

And why not? (hint... this is a place to stick the thin end of the wedge)

>I don't want them in my house (my kids aren't allowed to play w/ toy guns.),

Fairy muff. Your right. No worries.

>and I want the strictest legislation possible.

Against whom? The law abiding? Because legislation has a weak point -- it doesn't work against those who don't obey the law. We call 'em criminals. And making laws don't stop them from being criminals.

>I just think there are too many nut jobs out there brandishing fire power.

Again, a place to insert the thin end of the wedge. Why do you think so? And how would a law prevent this?

>And weapons are too easily, illegally attained by juvenilles who really don't
>understand the consequenses of their actions.

Illegaly? So you want more laws? Please explain? (*innocent smile* sit back and listen).

>Life and death aren't so black and white when your 14.

Nah. When you're 14, you're immortal. When you're 40, it hits you. But then again, when you're 14, laws don't apply to you. They're made by grey old men in ivory towers, who gives a ****? Fsck them. <- how are you going to counter this attitude with more laws, eh?

Koos the recently-turned-40

helpless
August 1, 2007, 01:56 PM
I am thinking just asking questions might force her to actually think about it logically.

Nolo
August 1, 2007, 02:19 PM
Wait. What?

I don't think that taking away everyones gun is the answer.

and I want the strictest legislation possible.

Is it just me, or is that a contradiction?

helpless
August 1, 2007, 02:34 PM
She is confused, she has flat out told me that she does not have any answers but this is just how she "feels"

Feelings are bad news.

joab
August 1, 2007, 02:36 PM
delete

helpless
August 1, 2007, 03:22 PM
Okay.

Replied with simple straight forward indisputable points.

and I got this,

Agreed and yet again, I don't have the solution for that other than make it harder for the bad guys and nut jobs to get the guns which unfortunately is a pain in the ass for everyone else.
...t.


I then told her that I was glad to see that she is willing to at least discuss it. and invited her and her man to go to the range with myself and my woman.

She excepted.

I guess you can call this progress. thanks guys.

Dravur
August 1, 2007, 04:30 PM
Well, ya know, if you argue with a pig, you both get dirty and it annoys the pig

I know the real quote is different, I like mine better.

Now, why bother? just get her a nice sheep outfit for her birthday.

Blackbeard
August 1, 2007, 05:04 PM
Is she politically to the left, and if so is she a rabid hater of the current President? Tell her to imagine the following scenario:

January 2008: The congress passes strict legislation requiring all private citizens to give up their arms or face Federal charges.

October 2008: Mr. Bush declares that it's too risky to change leaders during a war and cancels the November election, saying he'll stay in power until the war is over. Further, he seals the House and Senate to prevent them from stirring up trouble and undermining the war effort. Broadcast news outlets that protest this action lose their FCC licenses.

Who you gonna call? Someone with a gun maybe?

JWarren
August 1, 2007, 05:37 PM
She's a piece of work, all right.


Here's a few of my thoughts that may or may not help:


As with many of my views I don't have a better answer to the gun ownership thing.


Then perhaps it is time to set aside "feelings" and take a good, open-minded, honest look at STATISTICS. Now is a good time to consider the amount of rapes, murders and other nasty things that occur to unarmed people daily. Ask her how a post-rape 911 call has ever prevented one. MY firearms HAVE prevented one-- of my sister.


I don't believe in it-keeping guns.

We live in a free country. No one is forcing HER to keep one. But as long as we live in a free country, it is our right to do so if we choose. If she doesn't believe in having one, she doesn't have to get one-- but she needs to take ownership of the consequences of not having one.


There is NO failsafe way to keep gun owners responsible.


There is no way to prevent ANYONE from doing irresponsible things. I'd wager that if I followed her around for a day, I could tally up a nice long list of irresponsible actions that could potentially hurt herself or others.


Children get shot by other children daily b/c of irresponsible gun owners.

She needs to back this up with citiation. Again, more people and children are hurt by other things that society is perfectly acceptable of than by firearms. It just FEELS good to go after guns, but if she is going to be intellectually honest, she would have to admit that guns are not the primary killers of people. Furthermore, if she is going to live this honesty, she should be lobbying for a ban on automobiles and other killers of people.


and concealed weapons should definitely NOT be allowed,


Again... her Belief. Only this time she is not making a statement about HER choices but rather projecting her will onto others. If she is willing to make such a statement, she better be willing to back up her claim with solid statistics showing how many liscensed CCW carriers have KILLED ANYONE. Serious, she is practicing intellectually dishonesty. Tell her that before she starts projecting her ill-formed beliefs onto others, she needs to be able to back it up with a lot more than her emotions.


if our society gets to a place where we need to arm ourselves against the government then permits aren't gonna matter, so why do we need to carry guns on us now?

Correct. Permits wouldn't mean anything in protecting ourselves from the government. They do wonders in protecting one's self from rapists, however. Seriously, what world does this person live in???


I don't think that taking away everyones gun is the answer.


Nice to know. It doesn't jive with the rest of her comments, however.


I don't want them in my house (my kids aren't allowed to play w/ toy guns.),


Free country. Her choice. I just hope she never has to be in a position where she has to DEFEND those children. If she is SO interesting in the safety of children, then why is she SO willing to be unable to defend them. Some parent she is. What would she do if there was a home invasion like the one in CT? Or how about the one in FL recently where the child was forced to have sex with his own mother? I suppose she could make herself feel better in that she did not have to expose her child to gun violence while they are raping and killing everyone in the house. Personally, I think good parenting is actually being able to protect your children. Sorry if this has some uncomfortable imagery. But I DO hope it makes us uncomfortable to think about. Those cited events happened in the last few weeks and in different parts of the country. What keeps an "isolated event" from happening in HER carebear world?


and I want the strictest legislation possible.

Why? Again, if she wants to protect people, look to the REAL dangers.


I just think there are too many nut jobs out there brandishing fire power.


There are too many nutjobs... Period. Taking away the ability to act creates impotent slavery. It doesn't take away the desire to do it. Here's a novel idea: Work on fixing VALUES in our culture instead of trying to make us all defenseless against those nutjobs.


And weapons are too easily, illegally attained by juvenilles who really don't understand the consequenses of their actions.


BS. Citation that juvenilles don't know what they are doing, please. Perhaps it is a lack of values and a total disregard for human life is the problem. Again, fix society. Turn off the gangster rap and MTV.


Life and death aren't so black and white when your 14.


More emotional drivel. Life and Death are what they are. You are alive or you are dead. It was the exact same when she was 14. The big difference now is that as an adult, you are responsible for keeping those you love alive-- hence being able to defend them.



You have a person here making every decision from an emotional point of view. It is very unlikely that you will make any headway. It is VERY difficult to change the views of an person who makes decisions emotionally. Usually, something that hits them MORE emotionally has to occur for them to replace an emotional world-view position. I know a couple of people who were very anti-firearm who now carry because being raped. That emotional event became a catalyst to usurp the previously held emotional decision with another equally emotional one.


If you can't make headway, you may want to reevaluate whatever relationship you have with her.


-- John

If you enjoyed reading about "Help me influence a friend." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!