Girl shoots Father..this is something to really look at


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camonympho
August 1, 2007, 09:21 PM
I ran across an article from pa that upsets me on so many levels. From the neighbor who knew something wasn't right to the mom not doing more to help her daughter. Pa. girl, 13, charged with shooting father to death with shotgun

By RAMESH SANTANAM,
AP
Posted: 2007-07-30 20:56:49
BUENA VISTA, Pa. (AP) - A 13-year-old girl used a shotgun to fatally shoot her father in the head early Monday in a home overrun with animals and filth, police said.

The girl told investigators she used a 12-gauge shotgun to shoot 34-year-old Matthew Booth in the face while he was in bed, according to a police affidavit.

A police complaint did not identify a motive in the killing, but her mother, Michelle Fazek, who was separated from Booth, said she had complained several times to county child welfare officials that her daughter and her brother, 14, were living in squalor and that her daughter had been abused.

"I just want to see her," Fazek said. "She must be so scared."

Messages left for Allegheny County's Office of Children, Youth and Families were not immediately returned.

The Associated Press does not identify victims of possible sexual abuse.

The girl appeared in municipal court late Monday wearing a maroon county jail uniform, her hands and ankles cuffed, where she was charged as an adult with criminal homicide and ordered held without bail.

The house in Elizabeth Township, about 20 miles southeast of Pittsburgh was in deplorable condition, police said.

"They had a number of animals, dogs, cats and rabbits. They hadn't cleaned up after them," said James Morton, assistant superintendent of Allegheny County Police. The two-story frame house had dirty, peeling white siding, and a downstairs window was boarded up.

Matthew Booth's neighbor Suzanne Gruber told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that the girl had told her she had killed her father because she "just couldn't take it any more." Gruber said the girl also told her she had been abused.

In an interview with KDKA-TV, Gruber said the girl said "she messed up the house to make it look like somebody had broken in and she ended up shooting him in the face."

Gloria Brown, who lives two houses down from the Booth house, said the family moved in last year. She said she offered to let the girl, who seemed shy, stay at her home.

"I just know something wasn't right at the house," Brown said. She said she last saw the girl Sunday making a sandwich for her father at a birthday celebration at the Brown house.

"I was totally shocked when it happened," Brown said.


Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

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gunsmith
August 1, 2007, 09:46 PM
They should investigate a lot more before charging the little girl.
God only knows what she had to put up with before finally defending herself.
I wish I could afford a good lawyer for her.

alligator94
August 1, 2007, 09:50 PM
Not saying that the guy didn't deserve it, but no one knows for sure if he did either. This is kind of suspicious as well "she messed up the house to make it look like somebody had broken in and she ended up shooting him in the face." Everyone should wait until the facts are known before leaping to judgement on this one way or the other.

fletcher
August 1, 2007, 09:52 PM
I've pretty much got the same sentiments as alligator94 about this for now.

gunsmith
August 1, 2007, 09:59 PM
The house in Elizabeth Township, about 20 miles southeast of Pittsburgh was in deplorable condition, police said.

"They had a number of animals, dogs, cats and rabbits. They hadn't cleaned up after them," said James Morton, assistant superintendent of Allegheny County Police.

If you care about your kids you provide a clean safe environment, not "squalor"

Bezoar
August 1, 2007, 11:33 PM
thing is these days, living in a 4 star hotel with a plugged up kitchen sink can be considered living in "squalor". Although not everything will be known or understood about this situation at all.

lee n. field
August 2, 2007, 12:01 AM
A police complaint did not identify a motive in the killing, but her mother, Michelle Fazek, who was separated from Booth, said she had complained several times to county child welfare officials that her daughter and her brother, 14, were living in squalor and that her daughter had been abused.


Interesting that the kids weren't with the mother. It's almost a given these days that Mom gets custody.

Dark_Harvest
August 2, 2007, 12:37 AM
everything you need to know about the slant taken in this article can be summed up in the byline:

By RAMESH SANTANAM,
AP

The Deer Hunter
August 2, 2007, 12:51 AM
Its not right that minors can be charged as an adult but cannot defend themselves...

But I wonder why she did it.

Dark harvest, this doesn't seem like the place for you.

Cosmoline
August 2, 2007, 12:56 AM
Barring some form of insanity, when a female child of that age kills her own parent, the parent had it coming in spades.

igpoobah
August 2, 2007, 12:57 AM
Barring some form of insanity, when a female child of that age kills her own parent, the parent had it coming in spades.

Heard that.

2TransAms
August 2, 2007, 01:02 AM
Cosmoline,you're probably right but I'll reserve judgment until more facts come to light. But to blow away your dad..one of you has to be really messed up.

Deer Hunter,I think DarkHarvest's comment was referring to the Associated Press. I'm sure they just spit out the first sensational bit of info that they got,and they will worry about the facts later.

budney
August 2, 2007, 01:10 AM
+1 Alligator--the story could well be very different than it sounds.

+1 Cosmoline--If the "abuse" is real, and the girl isn't a sociopath, I'll bet a new Bowie knife that the abuse was sexual, and horrific.

Um, Dark Harvest, I'll assume that "AP" is the part that tells us everything we need to know?

--Len.

Cannonball888
August 2, 2007, 09:06 AM
To be self-defense there has to be imminent danger, otherwise it is viewed as pre-meditated murder by the judicial system. But by being a minor and probably having suffered abuse I doubt she will be found guilty.

Kentak
August 2, 2007, 09:19 AM
Jumping to conclusions. Something done all to easily here.

Of course she is going to be charged. It wasn't an evident self-defense situation. Evidence will be gathered, witnesses to the family situation will be interviewed, psych exams will be done, etc., etc. Then there will be a trial and a verdict.

That's how the truth is determined and justice done. If anyone knows a better way, raise your hand. But, judging from a few paragraphs in a news account isn't one of them.

K

Sistema1927
August 2, 2007, 09:29 AM
There is more to be discovered here, but it wouldn't surprise me if it ends up being a "Bad things happen to bad people" type of scenario.

What is sad is the fact that this girl is going to be seriously messed up for the rest of her life. To kill a parent in this way is going to leave permanent scars, no matter what led up to it.

Double Naught Spy
August 2, 2007, 09:31 AM
They should investigate a lot more before charging the little girl.
God only knows what she had to put up with before finally defending herself.


Actually, this is due process. She admitted, supposedly, to committing the homicide. As she was not defending herself against immediate attack to justify taking another life (versus simply walking away as the guy was asleep when she shot him), she has been arrested. It will now be up to investigators and grand jury to determine if this was a justified homicide or not and if they think so, then up to a court. Charges potentially will be dropped, but in the mean time, they have simply done what is proper for the process.

Even if they had not arrested her, she would be in protective custody after the homicide until things have been worked out.

What is sad is the fact that this girl is going to be seriously messed up for the rest of her life. To kill a parent in this way is going to leave permanent scars, no matter what led up to it.

If the reports are accurate, she was already permanently scarred.

Fred Fuller
August 2, 2007, 10:16 AM
This kid was messed up enough (not exactly a professional psychiatric diagnosis, but...) by what had already happened to her in life to take a shotgun and blow her father away while he lay in bed.

Whatever chance she had of sorting herself out in this lifetime is pretty much toast at this point. I feel sorry for the girl, she basically took the leap out of the frying pan and into the fire out of levels of desperation I personally cannot fathom.

It's most likely true that the father had SOMETHING coming to him, but that 'something' should have been delivered by 'the system' and not by the girl herself. By making herself judge, jury and executioner, this girl has inflicted a level of damage to her own psyche that is devastating and probably permanent. At this point it matters little what 'the system' does to her. What she does to herself from this point on will tell the tale.

Often enough, cases like this produce a life that is a train wreck of self-destructive behavior that culminates in suicide. I hope she can escape that self-inflicted destruction, but the odds are not in her favor.

lpl/nc (married to a former juvie jailer, heard lots of war stories)

strat81
August 2, 2007, 10:41 AM
I hold child abusers in the same regard I hold murderers and rapists.

Dravur
August 2, 2007, 11:13 AM
I am of two minds over this. I need more facts. Was this the work of a twisted young girl who wanted to pull a Menendez on her dad or was she abused and took it out the only way she knew how.

I want to know more.

pcosmar
August 2, 2007, 11:38 AM
This story may be related.
Many years ago in Missouri (1978?),a young man shot and killed his father.
The boy was 16 and was going to be charged as an adult. The prosecutor wanted the max sentence.
When it was reported in the news, folks came forward with information about the abuse. The boy had tried to get help and had spoken to school counselors and others. No one was able to "do anything".
This kid had thought the constant abuse was normal till he got into High School and found that being bull whipped was not "normal". The whole family had been terrorized for years.
He prearranged it with a younger brother, to keep the rest of the family outside, and shot his father 6 times in the face. He had his fathers gun.
The stories came out in court, different things from many people. Folks knew but couldn't "do anything"
I had known this young man, and had given him rides home. He worked at a restaurant with my girl friend. Nice kid, Quiet and polite.
The Judge,after listening to the crowd that came forward, banged the gavel and called it Justifiable Homicide. He said that the kid had done the community a service.
The family moved out of state.
This is a decision that could be made more often.

ldyates
August 2, 2007, 11:46 AM
Straight out of (pick your CSI) TV show. Kids have seen enough of this garbage on TV to know that criminals mess up the crime scene.

Truly tragic. I hope this was "justified" in the eyes of the law for her sake.

doubleg
August 2, 2007, 01:07 PM
Thats across the river from me... :uhoh:

rantingredneck
August 2, 2007, 01:38 PM
Tragic that these stories end this way. Tragic when the end with the child dying from abuse/neglect too. It is in the courts' hands now.

I've worked in mental health (adult and child) for the last 13 years or so here in NC. In doing that I've seen a lot of home situations that have given me pause. As a mental health professional I have a statutory obligation to report anything that may indicate abuse/neglect. I have reported those situations in the past. I've also testified in court in proceedings where a child was being removed from the home. In that particular case it wasn't animal waste strewn about the house. It was human waste.

In my several experiences with protective services (adult and child) I have come to several conclusions.

Something serious must happen before action will be taken to remove a child regardless of what the home environment is like. The situation I referenced above continued for three years after my initial report, and two years after my involvement with the family had ended, until I was called to testify in the custody proceedings. The prompt for the hearing was the near death of one of the children in the home from prescription medication that was not hers.

The system exists as it does to keep families together when possible. I personally believe that it should be difficult to separate children from their parents. This prevents some children from being raised by "the system", and it makes unwarranted removal more difficult.

Like any other profession those working in the various agencies charged with child protection have varying levels of commitment. Some are in it because they believe in what they are doing. Some are just there because it's a paycheck. I don't say this to knock the individuals working in those agencies because I couldn't personally work for an agency charged with that task. I could not stand to see the things that those individuals see every day.

That all being said, if you are ever in a situation where you feel it necessary to report abuse or neglect, be prepared to report it in writing and to be persistent. Report it in writing copied to several different people at the appropriate agency. It's more difficult to ignore a written report (who knows how many copies exist?) than it is to pretend a phone call never happened.

ziadel
August 2, 2007, 02:29 PM
How in the heck can they prosecute a 13 year old as an adult!? She is....13... I find this trend alone quite disturbing.

scurtis_34471
August 2, 2007, 03:06 PM
I also find the trend of charging children as adults disturbing. I remember the case of a 12 year-old boy who accidenty killed a neighbor child while wrestling. He had seen people do pile drivers many times on TV and did not know it would actually kill somone. He was tried as an adult and convicted of second degree murder.

I saw another case where an 8 year old drowned is 2 year-old sister while they were taking a bath and the state tried to try him as an adult. The courts stepped in and put a stop to it that time. This is insanity. Children are not adults. Their congnitive skills are not developed. They don't really understand the full consequences of what they do. That is why we have a juvenille justice system to begin with. Charging kids as adults is madness.

Cosmoline
August 2, 2007, 03:13 PM
It gets really surreal when there are kids put into max security prisons. If you're going to do that to someone, you really might as well just kill them.

Bazooka Joe71
August 2, 2007, 03:30 PM
It gets really surreal when there are kids put into max security prisons. If you're going to do that to someone, you really might as well just kill them.


Don't they just go to juvy until they turn 18?


Not saying he didn't have it coming either...But she was 13, not 5. I was plenty old enough at 13 to know how to get out of a bad situtation with my parents without killing them(not that I did, I loved my parents).

Not to mention she messed up the house to try and cover it up.

Once again, I'm not taking sides, and maybe she shouldn't be shackled but I don't think its the worst idea ever to have her locked somewhere to make sure she is mentally stable and not going to do something like this again.

Strings
August 2, 2007, 05:43 PM
Before i say ANYTHING else, I'd like to add something to Rantingredneck's post: not only should your report be in writing, to several folks at CPS, but make sure you give your name. Anonymous reports go to the bottom of the stack.

Now, some here have suggested that "they", at 13, would have known how to leave the situation. We had a case of a 19 year-old girl, who had been raped by her father since she was 5. The abuse continued even at college, in her dorm room. She had NO idea how to make it stop...

IF there's abuse involved, it's likely that it's been ongoing for quite some time. In such cases, that's all the child knows, and be desperate to "get away". Desperate people, as we all know, can take desperate measures (like shooting someone in the face with a shotgun)...

we don't have all the facts here. We may never. I'm gonna put my trust in the system for now, and hope that the Grand Jury finds out the truth of the matter.

ozwyn
August 2, 2007, 06:00 PM
Charging is one thing, convicting is quite another. Might be hard pressed to find a jury who will convict on this if there is any signs or history of abuse.

Jmeyer1292
August 2, 2007, 06:13 PM
Assuming that the girl was severely abused, could you not argue that she committed an act of self defense, even if she was not in immediate danger?

I mean, she is a 13 year old girl. I highly doubt she'd be capable of defending herself when she is being abused by a thirty something year old man. I highly doubt, for that matter, that she had any idea of how to escape, except one. If she can not escape because she is, or at least feels, confined and can not defend herself while being abused, what option does she have but to do what she did if she wanted the abuse to stop?

rantingredneck
August 2, 2007, 06:44 PM
Before i say ANYTHING else, I'd like to add something to Rantingredneck's post: not only should your report be in writing, to several folks at CPS, but make sure you give your name. Anonymous reports go to the bottom of the stack.

Good point. Anonymous reports may make you feel better, but they accomplish next to nothing.

jaholder1971
August 2, 2007, 07:16 PM
How in the heck can they prosecute a 13 year old as an adult!? She is....13... I find this trend alone quite disturbing.


Simple - They get permission from a judge.:scrutiny:

Dark_Harvest
August 2, 2007, 11:32 PM
to "the_deer_hunter" and "budney:"


so this isn't the place to be honest? this isn't the place to apply my knowledge of the media to a certain subject?

weird... i must have been misinformed... i could have sworn i lived in america...

i guess i'll be exercising my right to ignore you from now on...

like you should have ignored me, if you didn't like my view.

Bazooka Joe71
August 2, 2007, 11:48 PM
RAMESH SANTANAM,
AP

What is this anyway?

Dark_Harvest
August 3, 2007, 01:58 AM
it's the byline of the originally posted article, i.e. who wrote it, and what media outlet published it.

Strings
August 3, 2007, 02:23 AM
Dark_Harvest: is your point the person, or the news service?

Agouti
August 3, 2007, 02:27 AM
I find the trend quite refreshing. If the father was indeed raping her, she set the new trend of shooting rapists in the face with a shotgun. In fact, I think this line of thought should be promoted. If you rape someone, you WILL be shot in the face. I think we would find that rape rates suddenly drop when rapists are in fear of their lives. Not just children either, grown women too -and men!

And of course she was trying to cover it up, with today's whacked out liberals wanting to stop self defense, can you really blame her?

Of course, if he wasn't abusing her in any way, was just a lousy housekeeper, then I think 13 is a fine age to charge her as an adult. I certainly understood what death was at that age.

Geno
August 3, 2007, 02:36 AM
This child will never get a fair trial! Where is a responsible parent willing and able to mount an earth shaking defense?! Given what the child appears to have endured, and that the prosecutor is willing to throw her life away hints to me, that her life may well be over. Simple ameriKan injustice: 1) over-charge the innocent, 2) plea it down through fear-mongering and 3) brag up their legal resume to the press...toughening up on crime...one defenseless little child at a time.

JP from Phoenix
August 3, 2007, 02:37 AM
I don't know about all cases but i know there were instances where they put older teenagers in real prison.

Dark_Harvest
August 3, 2007, 02:49 AM
to "Strings" and everyone else beating around the bush...

call me a racist and get it over with.


i don't appreciate the fact that i point out that a gun-negative perspective is put forth by a journalist from an anti-gun city (philadelphia) working for a mainly liberal news company (ap), and all you guys focus on is the guys name.

grow up.

LadySmith
August 3, 2007, 07:32 AM
I agree with JMeyer1292. This was a 13-year old girl, a child, stuck in a bad situation. Her mother, her neighbor and county welfare officials, adults all, were not able to protect her. So she had to protect herself. She didn't get someone else to do it for her. I am curious about some things.
Why was she with the father in such deplorable conditions instead of with the mother?
Where did she get the gun?
Why didn't any adult do something before it reached this point?

budney
August 3, 2007, 09:02 AM
Dark Harvest, that the guy has an Indian name is irrelevant. I have no idea what you think his name tells you--unless you have a beef with Indians generally. And if you do, then Deer Hunter, Strings and the others are right: this is not a welcoming place for racists to hang out.

If we've misunderstood you, please set us straight. So far, you're reinforcing the impression of your original post.

--Len.

grampster
August 3, 2007, 10:41 AM
Dark Harvest,

If you did not intend to make a racist remark, then why make the comment you did in the fashion you did? Why not be specific? If you wish to make a comment about bias in the report, then say so. Clarity is good.

Don't further feed the troll, folks.

joab
August 3, 2007, 10:57 AM
I remember the case of a 12 year-old boy who accidenty killed a neighbor child while wrestling. This is the problem with this and other discussions on this board

A person gives a defense that warms our cockles so we are all to willing to accept it

The boy in question claimed to have accidentally killed the girl, the evidence did not support that.
The coroner pointed out injuries that were not consistent with the story but pointed to a sustained attack
The prosecution, however, argued that the injuries that she sustained -- brain injuries, liver injuries, a broken rib, more than 30 bruises all over her body -- suggested that this was a brutal attack, an intentional attack that took more than five minutes to complete
That's what happens when we don't read past the headline

benEzra
August 3, 2007, 11:04 AM
RAMESH SANTANAM,
AP
What is this anyway?
An Indian name, as opposed to a Western European one like "Sarah Brady"?

I would politely point out that THR's own sysadmin is a Muslim gentleman named Zeanah, who works hard to keep this site running. Anyone taking issue with people with "foreign" sounding names are here only because Derek graciously allows them to be.

The United States is entirely a nation of immigrants, unless you are Native American--and even they immigrated, just not recently. African, Indian, European, Middle Eastern, doesn't matter. We're all non-native to this continent.

FWIW, if my user name weren't "benEzra" (Jewish, via a British poet), it would probably be "Chandrasekhar" (after Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, a famous American).

Thad
August 3, 2007, 11:11 AM
The name could have been left out and just AP would have been your focus. It is obviously misunderstood by many members from your OP, Dark Harvest.

Dark_Harvest
August 3, 2007, 12:39 PM
fine. if you refuse to listen to the part where the background (NOT RACE) of that author biased his report, just focus on the AP part.

for the last time, you guys brought up race. i only posted his name so you could check on the fact that he's from philly, and has written with a liberal slant before.

it doesn't matter who here is indian, or anything else. get over your hangups, and don't apply them to me. that's your problem, not mine.

budney:

how am i reinforcing anything? i posted just before you did CLEARLY STATING WHY I POSTED HIS NAME and you IGNORED IT. go back and read my post #41. it states the reason for posting his name, and it's not because he's Indian. do us all a favor, and read before you post.

and really, just what are you implying here, benezra????

"FWIW, if my user name weren't "benEzra" (Jewish, via a British poet), it would probably be "Chandrasekhar" (after Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, a famous American"

when did i question the nationality of anyone????? when????


all i meant was AP. just the AP. only the AP.

happy now?

and i'm not a troll. but it is obvious this is NOT the place for me, as i am able to both read, and not project my beliefs onto everyone else, only seeing what i want to.

so much for the "High Road..."

joab
August 3, 2007, 01:03 PM
Dark
Your shrillness is not helping you

You simply post a name and expect others to draw their own conclusions and then get pissy when they do

To support your case you make further baseless comments
There was nothing gun-negative about the report
That part was actually pretty unbiased and straightforward
And why would it not be appropriate for a reporter of a newspaper to report on stories that happen in their city

If you had meant to reference only AP you could have simply highlighted only AP instead of the reporter's terroristy name

You yourself caused the conflict by not being precise in your comment and further alienated yourself by not clarifying as an adult would have done

Get over your righteous indignation, you brought this upon yourself

I am beginning to believe that you possibly meant exactly what others assumed you meant and are back pedaling now that you find the political climate is not friendly to that type of thinking here

budney
August 3, 2007, 01:33 PM
i only posted his name so you could check on the fact that he's from philly, and has written with a liberal slant before.

If you posted his name with the intent that we'd go do some research on his background, then the name hardly "says it all," as you originally stated, since the name only tells us something after researching him further, which we didn't realize you intended us to do.

Here's the scenario:

You: "This is a NYT article written by Hyman Katz. That says it all, really."

Us: "Are you referring to the known bias of the NYT, or are you suggesting that all Jews are anti-RKBA?"

You: "You idiot! I meant that Hyman Katz is married to my sister, and he's a total putz! It's you people who are dragging the Jews into it. Learn to read!"

Us: How the heck were we to know you meant that? :confused:

In short, your shrillness is not serving you well. Your original post was unclear, your "clarification" didn't help much, and you're blaming everyone else for making the obvious inference from an unclear bit of writing.

--Len.

Scorpiusdeus
August 3, 2007, 01:51 PM
I always find it amusing when someone posts a story on an internet forum and someone will always come along and say. We need all the facts, or don't jump to conclusions.

People, the whole idea is to discuss, share, and throw around ideas. This is not a court of law nor are we jurors.

If you want to reserve judgment , fine, but don't get on other people for throwing out their feelings, ideas and observations.

Scorpiusdeus
August 3, 2007, 02:00 PM
for the last time, you guys brought up race. i only posted his name so you could check on the fact that he's from philly, and has written with a liberal slant before.

People asked you what does that mean and you didn't answer so you left it open for speculation until just now.

What ever your intentions were,they are now overshadowed by your inability to communicate clearly and in a timely manner. You've mad three or four post where one clear post would have avoided to who problem.

MinnMooney
August 3, 2007, 02:06 PM
This is an interesting news piece and - like the originator - I am disturbed, also. Why is the district atty wanting to try a 13 yr old as an adult? Is it like someone said that the DA is trying for a plea bargain or does he know something that wasn't in the newspaper? Lots of variables and I'd like to hear more about this in the month to come.

P.S. Can we all get off "Dark Harvest" 's case already??? This is THR

Scorpiusdeus
August 3, 2007, 02:08 PM
P.S. Can we all get off "Dark Harvest" 's case already???

Only after we charge him as an adult. ;)

joab
August 3, 2007, 02:26 PM
Why is the district atty wanting to try a 13 yr old as an adult? Because she committed the adult crime of blowing a man's head off with a shotgun and not a juvenile crime like shoplifting candy

Because absent a very good reason for doing this 5 or 6 years in a juvenile detention facility just wont do justice

Because so far there is no indication yet that she had any legal reason to commit a heinous first degree murder

Scorpiusdeus
Some people prefer adult discussion to pointless gossip

Shy girl lives in a home where there is dog poop on the floor so the father must die because he is obviously molesting her ,just doesn't fit into the adult discussion category

Scorpiusdeus
August 3, 2007, 02:35 PM
Scorpiusdeus
Some people prefer adult discussion to pointless gossip

Shy girl lives in a home where there is dog poop on the floor so the father must die because he is obviously molesting her ,just doesn't fit into the adult discussion category

We are not allowed to speculate about news stories. O.K., I'll make a note of that

:rolleyes:

Correia
August 3, 2007, 02:50 PM
Closed for being generally annoying.

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