[Gunsmoker]

Most of the time, someone mentions a shotgun with slugs if you want to defend against bears.

How would 00 Buck do? Mainly 00 Buck low recoil.

Grizzlies?
Black?

[RNB65]

Depends on what the bears are carrying.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t309/rnb65/RKAB.jpg

:D:D:D

[MCgunner]

I usually have a good K frame 4" .357 on me "loaded for bear" when out west hiking. I don't need no stinkin' heavy arsed long gun when I'm hiking. I have toted my .45 Colt a few times, but the .357 is plenty for blackies. I ain't real worried about it anyway, have walked many miles in bear country unarmed and I'm still here to tell about it.

I saw a grizzly in the Houston zoo, once.

[Fred Fuller]

Buckshot at close range is good medicine for thin-skinned, lightly muscled, small-boned dangerous critters.

By the same token, for heavy-hided, heavily muscled, heavy-boned dangerous critters you need to use slugs if you're going to tote a shotgun. Buckshot is far to iffy a proposition in that situation.

And not just any slug but one that is made of a hardened lead alloy and strongly constructed so that it penetrates as deeply as possible. For decades the biggest name in that game has been Brenneke. The folks down at Dixie now claim some advances on that front as well, I don't know because I have never tried any of their slugs.

'Reduced recoil' means either reduced projectile weight, or reduced projectile velocity, or both. For loads intended for use on dangerous critters I'd not be reducing either one of the factors that give my projectiles more oomph just in the name of getting kicked less when launching them. Of course, YMMV.

hth,

lpl/nc

[News Shooter]

This is from the Treadwell story:

Ranger Ellis was standing with ranger Gilliland and Willy Fulton to his left. Ranger Dalrymple was slightly ahead of Gilliland when Gilliland suddenly yells, Bear! while pointing to the right. Ranger Ellis states that he turned and "saw an adult bear moving toward the group about 20 feet away". All four begin yelling in hopes that the bear would see them and move away. Ranger Ellis then states that he "perceived that the bear was well aware of their presence and was stalking them". Ranger Ellis, armed with a 40 cal. handgun begins to fire at about the same time rangers Gilliland and Dalrymple, who were each armed with 12 gauge shotguns loaded with slugs also begin to shoot at the bear.

Ranger Ellis fires 11 times while rangers Gilliland and Dalrymple each fire 5 times, dropping the bear 12 feet away. "That was cutting it thin" stated Ellis. After about 10 seconds the bear dies and Willy Fulton then reportedly says "I want to look that bear in the eyes" and states that he is sure that this was the bear that chased him back to his plane earlier. (Ellis 2003, pg 3)

[PJR]

By the same token, for heavy-hided, heavily muscled, heavy-boned dangerous critters you need to use slugs if you're going to tote a shotgun. Buckshot is far to iffy a proposition in that situation.
Words to live by. In bear country my shotgun is loaded with Brenneke slugs. I've done enough penetration testing on buckshot and I have little confidence in its ability to stop a charging bear.

[hso]

My company does environmental field work. We have one and only one procedure for issuing firearms to field crews and that's in bear country in Alaska. The specified rounds are 12 ga slugs. This is after consultation with wildlife experts in the US Park Service and Alaskan Fish and Wildlife.

[RandyB]

I'll skip on the buckshot for bears, I want slugs.

[cloudcroft]

No, you guys have it all wrong: According to People Who Love Animals, all you have to do is shout at the bear, "No, bad bear, go away." No violence towards the poor defenseless innocent bear is necessary...harsh words will do.

Works every time. ;)

-- John D.

[Cosmoline]

Actually harsh words often *DO* work. You can't go blasting every bear you run across. But if you're getting charged hardcast brenneke style slugs are the only smoothbore medicine for the job.

[ArmedBear]

I've tried dealing with bears.

There's no point. They always want too much for what they're selling, and they won't listen to reason.

Go to Tijuana and deal with Mexican merchants instead. I've had much better luck.

[jklinstein]

If you need to use it against a bear, you won't notice the recoil.
Use hardened slugs.


From my brother, who hunts & Fishes in Alaska:

(1) Use a 12 Gauge pump shotgun for reliability & wound characteristics.
(2) Use a short barrell for quick maneuverability (like a deer barrel).
(3) Use hardened slugs for deep penetration.
(4) The head makes a poor target on a bear, so aim for the front shoulders so he loses the ability to run.
(5) Remove the front sight... it hurts less when the Bear shoves it up your nose!

[ravencon]

Even here in western Massachusetts the bears can get feisty. Recently several aggressive specimens were terminated by LEO and livestock owners. One nonviolent specimen even wandered into a convenience store and browsed for a while.

Having seen bear in my back yard I require that my HD shotgun be capable of dealing with bears--ghost ring sights and slugs nearby. I wouldn't want to rely on buckshot.

[Nameless_Hobo]

I've been thinking about this as well, keep in mind I'm in blackbear country rather than grizzly country, do you think 2 3/4 inch rifled slugs will work? I don't have a repeating shotgun with a 3 inch chamber, only a single shot and a double barrel.

It's all hypothetical anyway, I don't carry a gun in the woods, lest I go away from home, then I'd carry a .357.

[41magsnub]

Just to keep the impression that we are not all trigger happy gun nuts looking for an excuse to pop any bear that gets in our way.... We are not all that way right? right?

Bear Spray exists for a reason. That way you run the bear off and if the proper authorities decide it is a problem bear it is easy to find the one whose face is dyed day glow orange.

Also, a little common sense goes a long ways to prevent problems. Proper food storage, making noise so you don't accidentally sneak up on a bear, doing the right thing if you come across a bear, and of course no "Oh! How cute, a bear cub! Let's play with it" crap.

In all my years of hiking in bear country, both black and grizzly, I have never had a problem by following the basic safety steps.

If there is a serious bear threat in an area such that you think you need to pack a long gun maybe that is not a good time to be there?

http://www.udap.com/bearnews.pdf

[MCgunner]

Thanks, 41magsnub, someone that knows what they're talkin' about. :D I never carried "bear spray", just figured I'd fire into the ground to scare 'em off. Never had to, though. Main thing is, don't bring your cheetos into the tent at night. Bears ain't a real big deal in New Mexico, Arizona, or west Texas, where I've spent most of my time hiking. There was one that came into a public camping area off the road between Cloudcroft and Ruidoso once and got into a guy's ice chest he'd left out. The guy got up and ran him off. I heard the ruckus and turned over and went back to sleep, LOL. Figured he was takin' care of things. My food was locked up in the car. Wife never quit snorin'. :D THAT might have been what actually scared him off, don't know.

[CWL]

Bears aren't really that bad.

I just went camping for a week during 4th of July. We ran into 4 black bears in 2 separate encounters (1 young male maybe 200lbs, and one mother (150lbs?) with 3 young cubs). They were just curious and looking for a free feed, didn't really want to mess with humans. The mom wasn't aggressive at all and sent her cubs up a tree when we started shouting & banging pots. -This was more of a pain than the bears because we had to move our camp away from the tree at night.

Unless you are backpacking thru high wilderness with slices of bacon clenched in your buttcheeks and salmon oil rubbed all over your body, bears are not as great a threat as people on these boards believe. Take proper food/scent precautions and you should be fine.

[ravencon]

Just to keep the impression that we are not all trigger happy gun nuts looking for an excuse to pop any bear that gets in our way.... We are not all that way right? right?

While most black bears aren't aggressive some are. The aggression levels in my area are increasing. The biologists quoted in the local press theorize that as the bear population increases their more frequent interactions with humans cause them to lose their fear of humans.

Just ask the people in my area who lost several goats to the bear and who had their beefers aggressively harassed. Or the cops who responded to a routine bear complaint and had the bear charge them.

If you want to rely entirely on bear spray please feel free. Personally, I'd like to back it up with something more substantial than a stern lecture about we should just all get along.

[41magsnub]

Frankly, I have never had to use either in my numerous encounters with bears both while hiking and when they are prowling around at night. I even had to let a black bear drag off a Mule deer I had shot after apparantely I didn't have it hung high enough or it slipped. I started making a bunch of noise and the bear started, then ran off dragging my deer. I was holding my hunting rifle at the time of course though I was a little nervous just holding a .243.

Hiking, if a bear is close enough to me for A: me to hit it with a pistol/bear spray and B: for me to determine it is going to charge and the regular methods to run it off don't work I am probably toast either way but have a better chance with the spray.

Granted.. if your out to kill a bear or are forced to go into an area where there is a high threat and need to pack something that will down the bear a shotgun is the way to go. But, what the hell are you doing there?

Again... walking around in bear country where there is a high threat level is not something a sane person does.

[Cosmoline]

But, what the hell are you doing there?

Some of us live there. And how do you tell what this "threat level" is? Sometimes people post a sign up warning others, but not always. And you can always be the first to stumble into trouble. Sometimes attacks come out of nowhere. Other times you can be surrounded by the buggers and they don't even pay attention to you.

My rule is I avoid the brown ones whenever possible and will back away from areas with too much of their sign. Any bear I see that's not running away is a potential threat, and justifies shouldering loaded arms with the safety off while making noise and whatnot. Any charge will be presumed genuine. But thankfully I've never been charged by bear. I've been charged by moose, but you can't shoot them.

[336A]

For black bears any slug that you would use for deer hunting will work. Black bears will more often than not run away at the first smell/sight of a human, yes I know there are exceptions. When I go out hunting for bear I use either a 30-30 or a Marlin .44 mag. If I knew that I was going to be in an area where there were grizzlies then I would get the best slugs around. And those would be either the dixie Terminator 730gr @1200fps or the Exterminator 730gr @ 1400fps. The Brenneke may be harder than your average slug but they are not hard cast as Dixie slugs are. Mr. gates treats these slugs as if these were dangerous big game rifle bullets and that is how they perform. When putting my life or my lovedones in a possible situation I am not going to go for second best, I want the absolute best. Especialy when grizzlies are in the area. Here is a first hand account on the performance of these slugs at a Linebaugh Seminar.

Fellow Shooters,

This marks the second year for John Linebaughs Midwest Big Bore Seminar here in Carthage Illinois. As the host of this event I am still compiling the data into a useable format for John and for all our fellow shooters.

I called Mr Gates this evening with the results of his 12ga. Terminator slugs I shot at this event. The slugs I have are last years production around this time with the crimp groove and 740 grains wt.

The shotgun was:
Savage 210, fully rifled, bolt action with the 24 inch barrel.
Velocity: 1241 ave. 3 shots

Penetration in soaked wet newspaper stack:
Distance: 27"
Bullet condition was 100 %. Bullet penetrated straight and did not tip or yaw, nose forward. with the exception of the rifling marks, appeared undamaged and as though it could be reloaded.
Penetration in paper with bone:
( Stack contained 4" of paper, a Beef femur bone with knuckle, and more wet paper behind)
Distance: paper+ bone+ 13"
Bullet condition was approx 65 plus %. Bullet nose was damaged into the crimp groove.Bullet penetrated straight, did not tip or yaw, nose forward.

Observations: The wound channel in both tests were impressive, initally the size of a tomato paste can. As bullet slowed, wound channel reduced to over bullet size. The tramua area around the wound channel was "bruised" to a diameter significantlly larger. ( not measured)
When the bullet struck the bone in the second stack, it simply dissappeared with the exception of a 2 inch section at the top and a 3 inch section at the bottom. the middle 10 inches.... gone. Some of the bone shards were expelled from the stack to a distance of 50 ft from the test. The top 2" piece was ejected from the stack about 2 ft straight up. The display was most impressive.

I have not used this on game, but if the outcome is similar to the penetration tests, this should do admirably for the purpose for which it's designed.

I hope you will find this information helpful.

Thank you
Todd Corder

[336A]

In my last post those results were from 2005 here is another accounting from the same year. The Express loading is no longer listed.

James and fellow shooters,

I looked for the these test results on the forum and was certain that I had posted them. Either I was mistaken, somehow I missed them or they are lost in cyberspace. Regardless, here is the results of the penetration tests with the three loads of Dixie slugs.

These results were from John Linebaugh's seminar in Cody Wyoming. June 2005

The test firearm was a Savage 210 bolt action with a 24" barrel. Scope was a Simmons 1.5-5x 20 Prodiamond shotgun scope.

The Dixie Terminator slugs were tested first thing in the morning, utilizing paper that had a 24 hour soak. All the Dixie data was shot at the same time. The distances measured were total distances, including the paper and bone. There was approximately 4" of paper, a beef foreleg knuckle, and the remainder of the penetration stack up to a total of 72".

Dixie Terminator factory load 1280 fps
36" in plain paper, 1st 6" paper disappeared, wound channel LARGE and funnel shaped, bullet undamaged
24" Paper w/Bone, bullet nose mashed a little. only lost 1/2 the front driving band. Retained weight approximately 675 grains

Dixie Express factory load 1350 fps
34" in plain paper, wound channel showing the typical "cavity" after entry. Wound channel still LARGE, bullet undamaged
16" Paper w/Bone, bullet nose mashed to first lube groove, lost or moved all of the first driving band. Retained weight approximately 675 grains

Dixie Exterminator factory load 1440 fps
31" in plain paper, wound channel showing the typical "cavity" after entry. Cavity position was deeper in the stack. Wound Channel still LARGE, bullet undamaged.
14" Paper w/ Bone. bullet nose sheared to 2nd driving band. 2nd driving band missing 40% of it's diameter. Retained weight 433gns

Observations:

Increased velocity equals decreased penetration for this slug. Theory of decreased penetration could result from the following.
Due to the large frontal area of this bullet, increased velocity magnifies the density of the "tissue" by the following hypothesis. Bullet velocity and displacement overcomes the "tissues" ability to be displaced and thus shed from the meplat. The result is that the bullet is pushing on an ever increasing load until that load can be displaced from the nose of the projectile. This increase in "tissue" mass and it's resulting density slows the projectile and robs it of it's momentum therefore hindering it's penetration. This should account for the larger "internal" wound cavity of the faster slugs. Whereas the slower slug yielded a more funnel shaped wound channel, i.e. large entry to small and lacking the typical " internal cavity, suggests that the "tissue" was more readily displaced and greater penetration resulted.

[MassMark]

While most black bears aren't aggressive some are. The aggression levels in my area are increasing. The biologists quoted in the local press theorize that as the bear population increases their more frequent interactions with humans cause them to lose their fear of humans.

Would you happen to have a newspaper article link for this assertion? I'm not doubting you - I'd just like to read up on it.

I live in bear country - literally. I'm not in suburbia, I'm as rural in the western mountains of Massachusetts as you can get. There are many bears in my area and I've encountered them almost weekly, as I hike every morning on the Appalachian Trail before work, (I live 50-yards off the trail). I have crossed paths with bears from 50-yards to 50-inches in the 35-years I've been hiking in the woods. I've had my hair stand up a few times - even unsnapped the strap on my bear spray, but have never had an issue. Smart practices and a little knowledge about bears, habitat and behavior helps as well. I sat this morning in my yard sipping my coffee as a mother and two cubs wandered through the western edge of my yard. I don't keep myself buried in the newspaper, but I have not read yet where bear aggression levels are on the rise here in The Berkshires. I think a lot of the hysteria comes from misinformation, ignorance of statistics and a lot of hype. Incidents do indeed happen, but they are more rare than lightning striking humans. A few years ago, when trying to justify why his officers killed a bear who wandered into an upscale neighborhood, the Stockbridge Police Chief proclaimed at a news conference that a "black bear will kill everyone in this room".... ludicrous.

To the OP, if you're going to tote a 12ga to dispatch a bear, stay far away from buckshot. Use the most effective slugs you can buy and practice before you tote. Buckshot will likely just wound and/or blind the bear who will then suffer needlessly. I use bear spray as my primary defense against bears locally and carry a combination of bear spray and a .45ACP with Remington Golden Sabre 185's when I'm gone long range.

[evbutler462]

My family was reared in the swamps of eastern NC back during the Great Depression in the 1930's. All we had to eat in these remote swamps were what we grew ourself on the farm and what we shot in the swamp islands surrounding our homestead. There were deer and black bear aplenty. We dog hunted them and got our share of them. Or starve. All we ever used was 00 buck in short chambers as the magnum loads had yet to be invented. I can't recall ever having seen a slug there, though they were available in the civilized world. They would have been better killers than buckshot. Yet I can't remember ever losing a bear using buckshot. Sometimes it took both barrels as the brute was usually fighting with the dogs when we arrived to dispatch the critter. A mad bear with his adrenaline up is hard to kill but 00 buck always did it.

Years later when I left the swamps and went to the rural areas, less remote, I found to my suprize that there were shotgun slugs available all the while. In fact, I even bought a 30-30 rifle. Took it back home and my kindred were amazed that they could knock down a bear or a deer at a distance. I left them a few boxes of slugs and heard good reports from them.

I go home once a year to visit what few are left of the old timers. They all still have their rusty pumps and doubles in a place of honor in their homes. They still use them religiously. None of the new fangles stuff for them.

When I go back this year I will take my 270 rifle and let them take a few shots with it. The old place is still rustic and almost all of the kindred have gone on to their reward, having many notches in their old 12 gauges from tangling with the deer and bear.

Had we known about slugs back then, it would have made it likely that we would only have to use one barrel instead of two. I can't complain about 00 buck as it fed us throughout a desperate time in this country's history.

[Crunker1337]

In addition to slugs in a 12 gauge shotty, it's a very good idea to bring bear spray. If the bear is just looking at you but not charging, in addition to making lots of noise you should spray a cloud.

It would be good if it was possible to attach bear spray, or pepper spray for that matter on the forend of a shotty.

[borrowedtime69]

i have arthritis and bad back and shoulder discomfort so the most gun i can shoot is a 20 ga. and i cant shoot that very long to boot.

i have a Mossy 500 with 18 1/2" cyldr bore choke that is fast and reliable.

would 20 ga slugs work ok? what kind of slugs are the best for this? i have a bunch of Winchester 3/4 oz, 2 3/4", hollow-point, rifled slugs. they work at all or too soft?

thanks! -Eric

[41magsnub]

As far as the assertion that "some of us live there"... do you feel unsafe enough that you need to pack around a shotgun? Do you pack one all the time? Don't you get a little tired of it? If it were me and I felt insecure enough to need to pack around a shotgun because of the bears I would be reconsidering my living arrangements or be working the fish and game dept to do some trapping.

I live primarily in town, but spend almost all summer at my cabin and see bears about every other week (up there mostly black bears) and have NEVER been threatened by them. Usually my experience with the bear is a rear end shot of it hauling ass away from me. Right by the building I don't pack anything around, when hiking and whatnot I carry bear spray.

Hunting in bear country I pack the spray knowing I have a hunting rifle and maybe a .357 as backup depending on how heavy I pack. But, bear spray first.

As far as the "threat level" you always hear from your neighbors or the ranger if there is a problem bear. If I'm the first to see the problem bear, so be it. That is what I have the spray for and have something more substancial in the cabin if it breaks down the door at night (unlikely).

[Sir Aardvark]

There was a story that was recently posted here on THR about reduced-recoil buckshot NOT stopping a pit bull. The guy even blew the pit bull's front leg off and it was still attacking him.

I don't think it would fair any better against a bear.

[Nomad101bc]

What about a .45 or a .50 caliber hand gun could these get the job done for a bear or would they just piss it off?

[frankcostanza]

No, you guys have it all wrong: According to People Who Love Animals, all you have to do is shout at the bear, "No, bad bear, go away." No violence towards the poor defenseless innocent bear is necessary...harsh words will do.


the only thing stronger than a bears sense of smell, is his sense of irony

[Cosmoline]

It would be good if it was possible to attach bear spray, or pepper spray for that matter on the forend of a shotty.

As crazy as it seems, that's not a bad idea. There's one situation in particular where it would be nice--AFTER you make your kill. You're not legally allowed to blow a brown bear away because he comes in to take your moose or bou. BUT you are allowed to use bear spray. And there's always a chance he'll switch from going after the dead animal to going after you. So stowing the rifle in favor of the spray is not ideal. Some sort of canister with a spray nozzle mounted on top and an e-z clip that can snap onto variable size barrels would be ideal. Just hit the button and the whole thing unloads on the bear. If the bear shrugs it off and charges you personally, you have the firearm aimed and ready. I don't see a down side to it.

As far as the "threat level" you always hear from your neighbors or the ranger if there is a problem bear. If I'm the first to see the problem bear, so be it.

So be what? So you can try to rely on spray and hope the bear takes the hint. Maybe the bear goes away, and maybe he doesn't.

To each his own, but I know of too many people who've gotten mauled or killed around here to be overly comfortable.

Usually my experience with the bear is a rear end shot of it hauling ass away from me.

Mine as well, and I hope it always stays that way. I have no desire to see the "majesty of the beast" up close and personal on a hike. But that's obviously not the only possible experience with brown bear. Sometimes they just nail your backside, at least up here. You can opt not to carry out of pure fatalism, but to do it because you assume the bear will ALWAYS run away seems pretty naive.

do you feel unsafe enough that you need to pack around a shotgun? Do you pack one all the time?

In the woods I generally pack a rifle loaded for bear. Usually a Mosin with my custom 215's in it. In town I've been keeping a .44 SRH in my bike's "trunk" loaded with heavy hardcasts. There are brown bear here in the middle of the city, though most of them know to stay out of sight.

[ravencon]

Would you happen to have a newspaper article link for this assertion? I'm not doubting you - I'd just like to read up on it.


These stories were in the Daily Hampshire Gazette. The stories about the bear that was shot by a farmer for going after his cattle (same bear was believed to have killed his neighbor's goats) and the story about the cops shooting another bear were both fairly recently (within the last month or so).
No links though--I read it the old fashioned newsprint way. :)

I believe the story with the biologist's explanation was from a while ago. My recollection (which may not be accurate!) was that the quoted biologist was from UMASS. I think this was from a general story about the increase in the Massachusetts bear population and it related several incidents about "problem" bears.

I've certainly seen lots more local bear stories in the last couple of years (aggressive coyote stories too). In town bear sightings have become very common.

That said, when I hike I'm far more concerned about human predators and feral dogs than I am about bears. My handgun choice for hiking is usually more suited for bad humans than bad bears. But, still, a shotgun with slugs is a good thing to keep nearby in case a naughty bear mixes it up with the local canines.

[MCgunner]

My family was reared in the swamps of eastern NC back during the Great Depression in the 1930's. All we had to eat in these remote swamps were what we grew ourself on the farm and what we shot in the swamp islands surrounding our homestead. There were deer and black bear aplenty. We dog hunted them and got our share of them. Or starve. All we ever used was 00 buck in short chambers as the magnum loads had yet to be invented. I can't recall ever having seen a slug there, though they were available in the civilized world. They would have been better killers than buckshot. Yet I can't remember ever losing a bear using buckshot. Sometimes it took both barrels as the brute was usually fighting with the dogs when we arrived to dispatch the critter. A mad bear with his adrenaline up is hard to kill but 00 buck always did it.

Years later when I left the swamps and went to the rural areas, less remote, I found to my suprize that there were shotgun slugs available all the while. In fact, I even bought a 30-30 rifle. Took it back home and my kindred were amazed that they could knock down a bear or a deer at a distance. I left them a few boxes of slugs and heard good reports from them.

I go home once a year to visit what few are left of the old timers. They all still have their rusty pumps and doubles in a place of honor in their homes. They still use them religiously. None of the new fangles stuff for them.

When I go back this year I will take my 270 rifle and let them take a few shots with it. The old place is still rustic and almost all of the kindred have gone on to their reward, having many notches in their old 12 gauges from tangling with the deer and bear.

Had we known about slugs back then, it would have made it likely that we would only have to use one barrel instead of two. I can't complain about 00 buck as it fed us throughout a desperate time in this country's history.






Why am I hearing "dueling banjos" in my head? :D

[evbutler462]

We had the banjos and the square dances. There was no entertainment unless you made it for yourself. No electricity, no radios, except for a battery powered one that everyone gathered around at night to hear the news and the Grand old Opry. Really!! Television hadn't been invented that we knew of. I saw my first television in a more civilized setting about 50 miles away in the mid-1950's. Gunsmoke was the only program.

Plus dueling banjos, with uncle Dan Ward calling the dance, well lubricated with corn squeezings. I joined the sheriff's dept. and had to leave the swamps to avoid their wrath. A cousin became a game warden and was banished from the clan as they never paid any attention to the game laws or the liquor laws.

Happy shooting!!

[Jubjub]

You might try wearing this shirt

http://www.snorgtees.com/1threattoamericabears-p-250.html?osCsid=5c286f7428515578d73fc1c365e4b887