CCW While at Work - Why?


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goings_51
August 3, 2007, 10:51 PM
When I read through the various forums, I get the impression that many, many of you carry while at work whether allowed or not. All arguments about "locked in car" or postal worker jokes aside, why do you feel so threatened at work that you risk your job every day? What environment do you work in? Is the security inadequate?

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LightningJoe
August 3, 2007, 11:06 PM
I don't carry a gun for self-defense. Sure, it could be used for that, I guess. But that's not why I carry.

CTPistol
August 3, 2007, 11:06 PM
I never got that impression from this, or any other, gun forum.

Most seem to abide by the rules (like it or not) as they need a job.

:confused:

deanf
August 3, 2007, 11:09 PM
Your question is a little smarmy.

I don't carry because I feel threatened. I carry for self-defense if I am threatened.

thexrayboy
August 3, 2007, 11:10 PM
People carry while at work for the exact same reason they carry while shopping for groceries or standing in line at the movies.....because they can't predict the future and they have acknowledged the fact that violence is often random and unpredictable. Just because you are "on the clock" does nothing to alter this.

Those people who carry at work in spite of employer prohibition have made a conscious choice that their safety and security are a priority over their job.

You can always get another job...you can't get your health or life back after a violent attack. The odds of being attacked anywhere....even at work are minimal. The problem is the consequences when you lose that bet. A gun is just like an ambulance. You pray you never ever need one but if you do you need it desparately and you need it RIGHT NOW!.

Trebor
August 3, 2007, 11:10 PM
I take it you've never heard of a workplace shooting? Or someone who is attacked on their way to work, or after work before they go home?

If you decide to carry, and can carry at work, why would you not do so? Do you really have your life scheduled to the point where you can predict when you will be attacked and will need your gun?

fletcher
August 3, 2007, 11:10 PM
why do you feel so threatened at work that you risk your job every day?

This is why (even though I can't carry there):

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/03/national/03hostage.html?ei=5090&en=49a55d665c2fb13f&ex=1257138000&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&adxnnlx=1134403886-EzRGqhXD9zeo4WJHnCUrog

Hardtarget
August 3, 2007, 11:15 PM
Well, yes I do carry at work. My boss likes that. So do my co-workers. There have been four robberies within .5 mile of work...three of these resulted in victim death. There are four concealed handguns in the office...every day. We are comfortable with this arrangement.

Mark.

ZeSpectre
August 3, 2007, 11:27 PM
When I read through the various forums, I get the impression that many, many of you carry while at work whether allowed or not. All arguments about "locked in car" or postal worker jokes aside, why do you feel so threatened at work that you risk your job every day? What environment do you work in? Is the security inadequate?

Dunno, what do you think about Virginia Tech? Seemed pretty safe...until it wasn't. I've worked in a hum-drum office, boring, safe, and yet they had one of the most comprehensive "accidental death and dismemberment" policies I've ever seen. Makes you think a little now doesn't it.

Car Knocker
August 3, 2007, 11:28 PM
CCW While at Work - Why?
Because bad things can happen to people at work. Convenience store robberies/muders involve people at work. Pizza delivery people get robbed/murdered at work. Jewelry salesmen get robbed/murdered at work. Women at work get assaulted/killed at work by ex-husbands/boyfriends. School teachers are assaulted/raped/murdered at work. The list goes on. Places of employment aren't necessarily "safe" places - law offices, courts, hospitals, churches, schools, restaurants, are all places workers have been killed.

Tom Servo
August 3, 2007, 11:31 PM
A gun is a tool, like any other. Sometimes there's not a stapler or a hole-punch close at hand.







:rolleyes:

I carry at work because I'm around lots of armed folks I don't know very well. The boss pretty much requires that we carry. Of course, I work at a gun shop....

It's interesting that I HAVE needed a gun at two previous jobs, both of which had me working in questionable areas, and both of which prohibited employee carry.

There are workplace shootings. There are people who will kill you for $20 out of the cash register. I had a friend who worked at a convenience store in a "nice" neighborhood, and he got a gun pulled on him because he refused to sell cigars to a guy's girlfriend.

Short answer: no matter how hard you try to avoid violence, it may come looking for you, and you need to be ready.

Euclidean
August 3, 2007, 11:35 PM
Same reason I carry a gun everywhere else?

blackhawk2000
August 3, 2007, 11:41 PM
Dude, if I knew when I was going to need my gun, I wouldn't leave the house that day.

fishingjld
August 3, 2007, 11:42 PM
i am one of THOSE that has to not carry at work for the sake of my job. be it my family eating every day or carrying that is the decision i made. right or wrong thats it. now i will say if i could carry at work then i would but it's not possible. i mean pick up a paper and everyday it's another shooting or robbery or rape. why is it even a question. if i could i would.

geekWithA.45
August 3, 2007, 11:42 PM
I'm going to turn the question back to the asker: what makes you think that workplaces are any different from anywhere else?

skinnyguy
August 3, 2007, 11:46 PM
I work at a school, and while I do not have my CCW yet (on the waiting list), I will be carrying. Schools are known to be criminal empowerment zones, and while we do have an on-campus police officer during class hours, not only can that officer not be everywhere on 25 acres of campus at once, I work after class hours, and there are a great many things still going on at that time. So yes, our security IS inadequate, very much so.

Beyond that, a great many of our students are not known for their respect levels or honesty and law-abiding ways. We also have several gangs in town, and some of the members are in attendance there, and my job many times will require me to make some of them mad.

For the most part, I do feel secure at work, but there are many students, teachers, and other staff members I would do all I can to protect, myself included. As a result, I am not taking any chances.

For the record, Utah DOES allow concealed weapons carry on school campuses with proper documentation.

modifiedbrowning
August 3, 2007, 11:59 PM
My job is related to a retail business. Guess what? Random people (many of them) walk into the building all day long. That is why I carry at work.

strat81
August 4, 2007, 12:02 AM
People carry while at work for the exact same reason they carry while shopping for groceries or standing in line at the movies.....because they can't predict the future and they have acknowledged the fact that violence is often random and unpredictable. Just because you are "on the clock" does nothing to alter this.

Those people who carry at work in spite of employer prohibition have made a conscious choice that their safety and security are a priority over their job.

You can always get another job...you can't get your health or life back after a violent attack. The odds of being attacked anywhere....even at work are minimal. The problem is the consequences when you lose that bet. A gun is just like an ambulance. You pray you never ever need one but if you do you need it desparately and you need it RIGHT NOW!.

Wow, xrayboy must have super x-ray powers to x-ray my brain and find out what I'm thinking. Get out of my head!!

In all seriousness, +1. Name the place, and people have been attacked there. It doesn't matter if it's in a nice area, in broad daylight, or in front of a group of people. Violence can happen anywhere. People have been attacked in churches. People have been attacked in front of news cameras. People have been attacked in police stations. If some goblin barges into my office, what should I say? "Ha! I'm on base! No tagging allowed! Neener!"???

makarova
August 4, 2007, 12:05 AM
I'm gonna have to assume that even on this forum, a lot of folks didn't know that OSHA shows workplace violence the number two cause of death and injury year in and year out. Only vehicles like cars, forklifts and trucks are number one.
Sounds like a pretty good reason to carry to me. How much is your life worth?

Ragnar Danneskjold
August 4, 2007, 12:07 AM
When I got my CCW, it was while I delivered pizzas. It's not hard to imagine why one would want to carry on that job. My boss was fine with it. He kept a 1911 in the shop.

illspirit
August 4, 2007, 12:30 AM
I work at a cinema, and am sometimes the last one to leave at like 2am. Having been randomly shot at a few blocks from said cinema before, carrying seems prudent for some reason.

goings_51
August 4, 2007, 12:41 AM
I'm going to turn the question back to the asker: what makes you think that workplaces are any different from anywhere else?


I'll bite. I guess I'm just spoiled. I feel safe at work so I just don't worry about it.

If I worked in retail or in a different environment, I would feel differently. I was just curious where everyone else worked.

Guy B. Meredith
August 4, 2007, 12:43 AM
Ever hear of Xerox? I work for them.

Let me tell you a little story. One day a few years back a Customer Service team was meeting at a Xerox facility in Hawaii. One of the technicians had some sort of gripe. He brought in a hand gun and started picking off team mates like ducks in a shooting gallery.

Xerox, the happy place to work...

Epilogue is that Xerox now has a "no weapons" policy. Whooptidoo. There are a couple of dead people in Hawaii that were in what would be in compliance with the current rule. There was one who was not.

I did work in the US Post Office for a few months in 1992. That is a strange culture and "going postal" is not a far fetched idea there. We often kidded about it at lunch.

Larry Ashcraft
August 4, 2007, 12:46 AM
I never wear my seatbelt when I'm on my way to or from work.

Why bother? I've never had a car accident going to or from work.

:rolleyes:

camslam
August 4, 2007, 12:55 AM
No offense, but it is kind of a stupid question. I'm with about 98% of the other responders, if you are going to carry, why wouldn't you carry at work.

No reason to be a sitting duck there anymore than being a sitting duck in your car, a movie theater, restaurant, your home, or any other place you may go.

The boy scouts had it right when they made their motto: Be Prepared.

DoubleTapDrew
August 4, 2007, 01:01 AM
I'll bite. I guess I'm just spoiled. I feel safe at work so I just don't worry about it.

I bet most of those students at VA Tech felt safe at school. The administration even talked about how safe they were now that guns weren't allowed.
I carry all the time because you can't choose or guess when something might happen. A lot of the shootings that happen are at areas where people are expected (or required by law or rules) to be unarmed. I'd love to never have to carry, if I knew something would happen I'd just stay home. The problem is you don't. I don't like depending on other people or feelings for my safety. If the stuff hits the fan, YOU are the last line of defense between going on living, or meeting the Almighty.

Larry Ashcraft
August 4, 2007, 01:05 AM
I feel safe at work so I just don't worry about it.
How you "feel" has little to do with it.

I "feel" safe at work also (retail, light industrial, one man shop), but I "feel" even safer with a .45 in my waistband.

Caimlas
August 4, 2007, 01:19 AM
Just wait until someone's deranged boyfriend/girlfriend comes in and starts making a violent scene. Happens pretty often, unfortunately. Even if he/she is waving a chair above his head, a gun diffuses things fairly rapidly...

Hypnogator
August 4, 2007, 01:51 AM
My company policy is for all employees to be armed and able to defend themselves 24/7. :what:






I own the company! :cool::neener::neener::neener::D:D:D

Rexster
August 4, 2007, 01:55 AM
I seem to remember that with women, the single most likely place for them to be murdered was AT WORK, according to one study a few years ago. I don't remember if the study addressed the same question in regard to men. There is no stupid question, so I have heard, but some are certainly asked with little forethought.

tyme
August 4, 2007, 02:27 AM
When I read through the various forums, I get the impression that many, many of you carry while at work whether allowed or not. All arguments about "locked in car" or postal worker jokes aside, why do you feel so threatened at work that you risk your job every day? What environment do you work in? Is the security inadequate?
Anyone who feels truly threatened at work should do more than simply carry a gun... quitting and/or initiating some internal or legal complaint would be reasonable, depending on the seriousness of the threat.

I don't think CCW is about feeling threatened. I think it's an intersection of being prepared, the responsibility and discipline of carrying all or most of the time, and the comfort of having a symbol of a hobby nearby. Lots of people have trinkets or other things at work to comfort them or make them feel happy. Gun people should have guns.

Double Naught Spy
August 4, 2007, 08:13 AM
I'll bite. I guess I'm just spoiled. I feel safe at work so I just don't worry about it.

I feel safe at work as well, but I refuse to be a blissninny and believe that because I feel safe at work that nothing bad can happen to me.

Contrary to many folks' sentiments, concealed carry isn't about feelings so much as it is about statistical probabilities. There is a very high probability that something bad will happen to you in regard to interpersonal threats or violence, but it will be (for most of us) in very very low frequencies.

It is also funny (strange) how people who do go a bit crazy and try to kill all their coworkers are usually the ones nobody expected, that they felt safe around.

XavierBreath
August 4, 2007, 08:55 AM
Two reasons:

1. I must walk through the parking lot before and after work, and security is inadequate.

2. At one time in my life, under interrogation, I was asked if I carried at all times. I replied no. I came to realize that this question and this response could be used, rightly or wrongly, in court to establish mens rea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea) for premeditation.

In other words, if you do not carry at all times, why did you carry at this time? Since you carried at this time, and were forced to use your weapon, you must have known that danger was imminent, otherwise you would not have carried a gun. Knowing that danger was imminent, why did you not avoid the danger? Why did you go looking for trouble? Were you looking for the opportunity to kill somebody? Were you bloodthirsty?

That is why I carry at all times. There are times I feel the need to carry, and other times I do not feel the need. But if I am ever asked that question again, I can honestly say yes, I carry at all times.

JamisJockey
August 4, 2007, 09:26 AM
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/work04.shtml

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/04/workplace_shoot.html

http://www.iansa.org/regions/namerica/workplace-shooting-rampage.htm

There are three examples.
Notice how in almost every workplace shooting, it comes down to the police and the shooter?

Admittedly, in my old job as a Federal employee, I didn't carry. I hated being more scared of losing my job and being charged with a federal crime than of being a victim. I was lucky enough to leave that bleeting sheep zone behind and begin working for myself. I now carry every day at work
:D
considering I work from home. I do have two employees, and I feel it is my duty to help make sure they are safe when around me. My weapons policy is 180* from that of my previous employer. I require that my employees comply with state law.....VA is an open carry state....:neener:
Neither of them are gunnies or carry, and that's okay. Its thier choice.

Just wait until someone's deranged boyfriend/girlfriend comes in and starts making a violent scene. Happens pretty often, unfortunately. Even if he/she is waving a chair above his head, a gun diffuses things fairly rapidly...

Employee number one has a recent ex who is of questionable stability and character. He was semi-violent, part of the reason they split. He's threat numero uno in my book.

Cannonball888
August 4, 2007, 09:33 AM
I violate my company's policy and carry every day. Why? Because another employee was stabbed in the throat by a knife-wielding robber. I don't value my job enough to not carry. My occupation is in such high demand I can get a job anywhere.

jdm1986
August 4, 2007, 09:40 AM
Let me give you an example - last Friday we were having a cookout (at work, for lunch). We have one every few months.

An SUV pulls up. We don't know who it is. All we know is that it's 4 guys. One guy gets out, starts walking to the door.. bloodshot eyes, pants down below his knees, you know the getup - says he talked to "Kevin" and wants an application. There's no Kevin that works at our place, so one of our guys mentions "Keith" (who does work there) and the guy says "yeah, Keith". He gets an application, and goes out to his SUV.. for 20 minutes. He comes back in, saying he wants the "short" application. Turns out he wants to rent some equipment. We'd be happy to do it, but there was something really strange about this situation. We give him a credit application. He sits out in his SUV with the 3 other guys for 30 minutes. This is in the middle of the cookout, everyone's out at the shop, and I'm waiting in the office. It might not sound strange, but it was a tense situation.

I'm not going to get into race issues. I'm not racist. If this guy had been by himself, and not dressed in this manner, and not OBVIOUSLY under some influence of whatever drug, and not acting so suspicious.. I would've been happy to deal with him.

If this had been in any other situation, I would've been happy to talk with him. You just don't come in trying to rent heavy equipment stoned outta your gourd, pants below your knees.

Nothing ended up happening (except for them throwing several pieces of trash out of the SUV into our parking lot). I know one thing. I've never been happier I had a gun strapped to my waist. This may seem drastic - but I don't see it as drastic at all. The guy ended up not causing any trouble. He wasn't being a jerk or anything. That's probably 99% of the situations I'll encounter at work. I carry just for that 1%. I don't have it strapped to my waist constantly at work, but I do have it within arms-reach.

edit : PS, also, at our "parent" company where my dad works, there is a woman there whose ex-husband is nuts. He has tried running over people in the parking lot. He has come in threatening everyone. He tried to blow his brains out, but somehow missed. They have bulletproof glass there now (and this is in a small, nice town). My dad has mentioned that there are a few people carrying there. One guy has a shotgun in his office.

the way I see it - work is pretty much one of the more social experiences I have in my day to day life. People coming in, people leaving. You just don't know what's going to happen. It's called paranoia now, I guess, since nothing has happened; but if something does happen, it's no longer paranoia. It's being prepared.

Bo
August 4, 2007, 10:05 AM
I work at the Post Office. No need to discuss the violence here. I'm uncomfortable that I can't carry while I'm at work but I've been here over 22 yrs. and really don't want to get fired. I don't think it's right that an employer can dictate what I can carry or not carry to and from work. If I happen to be going somewhere else after work, I just S.O.L.

rdaines
August 4, 2007, 10:55 AM
I would if I could but I can't (won't), it's sad but I value the money more than my life should something happen. I'm gambling that the odds are very slim (but not impossible) that an attack would occur. That's just the way it is, sad but true. Company rules don't even allow a firearm in the locked car.

gunsmith
August 4, 2007, 11:12 AM
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/workplaceviolence/index.html

Violence in the workplace is a serious safety and health issue. Its most extreme form, homicide, is the fourth-leading cause of fatal occupational injury in the United States. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI), there were 564 workplace homicides in 2005 in the United States,

mcooper
August 4, 2007, 11:16 AM
Well, if I had a crystal ball that told me if and when I'd need to defend my life I would carry only then. But since I don't know the future, I'll stick to carrying whenever I can.

Mat, not doormat
August 4, 2007, 11:59 AM
I don't work in a cozy little office. I work up and down the interstates. I work in the downtown cesspools of major cities. I work in industrial parks late at night. I work in dark rest areas. I work in some pretty nasty truck stop parking lots. A lot of times I don't know where I'm going to be working from one day to the next, let alone whether that place is going to be "safe."

Now, you've got one guess each: What do I do for a living? Why do I carry?

~~~Mat

Teufelhunden
August 4, 2007, 12:22 PM
Is the security inadequate?

Having worked at the 'elite' (short of nuclear facility) level of private security in the past, I can pretty much guarantee that the security is inadequate. Look around next time you go to a facility that employs private security on their site--how many of THEM are armed? Private security, for the most part, is about a savings on insurance. In order to maximize that savings, the lowest cost security company is used. If you've got a security force that's making minimum wage, you're not going to attract a competent, professional, capable officer.

I was the Lt. over a 21 man uniformed crew working for a GE life insurance downtown location. ~8 story tall office building, most of the floors were cubicle farms. Though the company had outsourced their security, they did not let my area supervisor or I set up the security plan, rather, they had an official sounding 'Crisis Prevention Manager' set it up in addition to making plans regarding workplace violence incidents, bomb threats, fires, and 'Acts of God'. This CPM did NOT have a background in security; he was a lifelong bureaucrat in middle management. The highlights of his plan included such gems as having my officers stay on post in the building during bomb threats even AFTER the building had been properly evacuated (same for a fire), and if there was a shooter in the building, having me (unarmed and unarmored) go talk to him until the police could arrive.

I say all of this to reinforce my point that for the most part, security ISN'T adequate at most workplaces; it usually isn't managed by security professionals. There is certainly no less of a threat (and possibly more of one) at work than at any other place you occupy during your daily travels. If you believe that carrying a weapon is necessary during your day, then being at work is no shield for your safety.

As for me, I CCW just about everyday I go to work--I'm a cop. :D

-Teuf

TallPine
August 4, 2007, 12:35 PM
Now, you've got one guess each: What do I do for a living?
Diesel mechanic?


As to the original question, I work from home, and I always carry at home (and most everywhere else too). I'm probably technically violating company policy by even doing that, since I'm not supposed to have firearms at "any work site" :rolleyes:

Clipper
August 4, 2007, 12:36 PM
I find it sadly comical that in a state that requires CCW holders to disarm before entering any establishment that displays any sort of 'no guns allowed' signage, the vast majority of businesses allow CCW, but require their employees to be helpless. I can walk into Sam's Club and wander around all day while armed, but I can't work there and do the same...

Famine
August 4, 2007, 01:12 PM
I teach high school, and our campus is a weapon-free zone. If I was caught with a pistol, I would certainly lose my job. In addition, that would be on my record in some way, shape, or form, and I would never get hired anywhere else in my state. I will never carry at work.

DMK
August 4, 2007, 01:43 PM
Do you wear your seatbelt even when driving down the street you live on? Is your street that dangerous?

If I could predict the future, I wouldn't need a seatbelt, I wouldn't need a fire extinguisher, I wouldn't need a first aid kit, I wouldn't need insurance and I wouldn't need a CCW or even a shotgun for my home. I would prevent or the avoid trouble before it became a problem. However, I cannot predict when danger will strike. So I need to take precautions for bad events that may never happen (crosses fingers).

Double Naught Spy
August 4, 2007, 03:42 PM
Violence in the workplace is a serious safety and health issue. Its most extreme form, homicide, is the fourth-leading cause of fatal occupational injury in the United States. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI), there were 564 workplace homicides in 2005 in the United States,

While it is the 4th leading cause of fatal occupational injuries, keep in mind that the stats include law enforcement officers of which 55 (~10%) were feloniously killed (http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_revised05.htm). The homicide stats also include the high risk groups of taxi drivers, convenient and liquor store employee that make up the top groups of victims along with police officers. So if you are not in any of those groups, your odds of being murdered at work are much less.

In terms of being the 4th most common cause, the number is only roughly 10% of the total number of work deaths that is 5,734 (http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_revised05.htm). Of the 5724 work related deaths, 2493 (43%) are transportation deaths. Of the transportation deaths, 836 are of truckers. In other works, if you are a trucker, you are 48% more likely to die from a road accident than everyone else in the whole country including cops, cabbies, and liquor and convenient store clerks via homicide and if you are in the transportation industry, you are 4.42 times more likely to be killed in an accident than everyone else in the whole country is likely to die as a result of homicide at work.

Aside from the transportation industry, I don't know what the other two occupations are where a person is more likely to be killed at work than they are apt to be murdered, but homicide really has a very low frequency of occurrence in the workplace, even with the cop, cabbie, and convenient/liquor store stats included. I know he can't see my post, but gunsmith does not seem to realize that being fourth is really a quite small percentage. The be honest, he missed the more damning data that can be found in the OSHA fields including the number of assaults with injuries and they don't even include injurious robberies or threats. While you aren't likely to be murdered at work, the chances of you being at the receiving end of a threat or assault with injury is MUCH greater. One should not worry just about being killed, but being injured.

strat81
August 4, 2007, 06:15 PM
While it is the 4th leading cause of fatal occupational injuries, keep in mind that the stats include law enforcement officers of which 55 (~10%) were feloniously killed (http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_revised05.htm). The homicide stats also include the high risk groups of taxi drivers, convenient and liquor store employee that make up the top groups of victims along with police officers. So if you are not in any of those groups, your odds of being murdered at work are much less.

While that makes sense, the same argument could be made for, say, dismemberments at work. Most probably occur in heavy manufacturing, maybe food processing. "Get an office job, and you probably won't lose an arm or leg."

gunsmith
August 5, 2007, 12:38 PM
It gets crazy in Reno at night.

MudPuppy
August 5, 2007, 12:58 PM
I'm going to turn the question back to the asker: what makes you think that workplaces are any different from anywhere else?

Workplaces are different in that you spend a large percentage of your entire waking life there. (I know, that's a reason to carry, but its a difference.)

Deanimator
August 5, 2007, 01:37 PM
During the first Gulf War, I worked for a classified NASA contractor as the facility security officer. My retard, Klansman boss for security first refused to allow me to stop the access control system from automatically opening the employee door, then in response to [the latest in a series of which, he didn't tell me about] a bomb threat, gathered everyone together in the building's lobby where they could be shot, if the threat were a ruse. Right after that, I started carrying a briefcase to work. Inside were my Series 70 Colt and a ballistic vest.

No Praise, No Blame
August 5, 2007, 01:46 PM
I don't carry concealed at work...




I openly carry at work.

Zoogster
August 5, 2007, 01:59 PM
If you carry in the street I don't see why one would not carry where they spend a large portion of thier lives. If it is a job that brings one in frequent contact with the public the inherent dangers are obvious. However even if it is a nice private office building, the fact that you can carry concealed should let you know anyone with ill intent could bring in a firearm. Even if you had a metal detector, were treated as unfree criminals, and had a security guard manning that detector, someone bent on going to your work and harming you or fellow co-workers could just blow the security guard away and head right on through before hurting an individual or commiting a massacre. All it would insure is that those inside were disarmed targets. It could be an ex employee, current disgruntled employee, some sort of upset customer or individual effected by the business, or an ex spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend of someone in the building. You have no idea who or what will come inside filled with anger or intent. The workplace is a place someone upset knows they can find another person too. So it is actualy a key location someone upset with someone that has tried to relocate or avoid that individual would go looking to find them.

To top it off even if the job is the safest place, the reality is that what you wear into and out of work is what you are going to wear to and from your car from work and to your home. What you wear to and from your car is what you will wear into and out of wherever you stop on the way home or to work. So in the parking lot, the gas station, the store, grab something to eat, or wherever you stop is likely to be done with what you already have on you. You can pretend you would always rearm and attach a holster and proceed to carry after you left work, and you might at first, but after awhile with no problems you would essentialy be as if you did not have a CCW. It would just become a comforting paperweight not likely with you if you ever needed it.

If you figure the average person will spend most of thier waking hours of life at work, then it lends itself to the notion that in all those years one is just as, if not more likely to have need of thier weapon in the defense of themselves or others in the workplace, or traveling to and from the workplace than anywhere else.

Blackbeard
August 5, 2007, 04:00 PM
It sounds grim, but we need to establish legal precedent that an employer is liable for your death if you are denied carry rights at work and are killed as a result. Unfortunately this sticks employers between a rock and a hard place. If an employee is killed by another employee, they're liable for allowing the killer to have a weapon. If the employee is killed by someone else, then they're liable for not allowing the victim any defense.

Guitargod1985
August 5, 2007, 05:41 PM
I carry at work just as I wear my seatbelt when going less than a mile to the gas station. Just because something isn't likely to be needed does not mean that it WON'T be needed.

Reddbecca
August 5, 2007, 05:57 PM
The world in this day and age is far too dangerous for you to actually believe that you're safe anywhere if you're unarmed.

cambeul41
August 5, 2007, 06:22 PM
I'm not so sure I am safe when I am armed -- just a shade more so.

SSN Vet
August 6, 2007, 12:04 AM
I'm not supposed to cary at work because it's against company policy.....so usually my carry piece is left in the car, 30 ft from my office.

Why carry at work? you obviously haven't seen how far down in the barrel the owners of the company will scrape.....and often, I'm the guy who has to go tell them that they're all screwed up and make them scrap and re-build or rework product.

I keep my eye on one guy in particular, because I don't think he's got it all together upstairs.

And the drifty employees attract drify "friends".

Is the security inadequate? uh, the security is non-existant.

But even with all this...I'm not scared, nor do I feel threatened at work.

But don't you ever have to stop for gas on your way home from work? That in itself is enough reason to carry.

Larry Ashcraft
August 6, 2007, 12:08 AM
To quote my trainer:

"Always carry the same gun, always carry it in the same place, and ALWAYS CARRY IT!"

Autolycus
August 6, 2007, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Blackbeard: It sounds grim, but we need to establish legal precedent that an employer is liable for your death if you are denied carry rights at work and are killed as a result. Unfortunately this sticks employers between a rock and a hard place. If an employee is killed by another employee, they're liable for allowing the killer to have a weapon. If the employee is killed by someone else, then they're liable for not allowing the victim any defense.

No we should not. If you want to carry why not start your own business and carry. When you get a job you enter a contract with your employer stating that you will follow their rules.

Anti-gunners could make the argument that by allowing carry the company could be liable for any ND/AD's that happen on the property. Or if you heroically decide to save the office from a badguy and you miss your shot and hit an innocent coworker, who is liable?

B yond
August 6, 2007, 02:21 AM
Why carry at work?

In case you need to shoot someone.

duh. :rolleyes:

chris in va
August 6, 2007, 05:34 AM
Is the security inadequate?

Security...ha. No such thing. I work at a parts distribution plant. We have a 'security guard' at the front in his office...unarmed. Front door is electronic card.

Now get this. Back doors are usually propped open because we don't have AC in the building, and our large bay door has a 'child gate' of sorts that can simply be pried open.

The kicker? A sign on the back keyed door has a picture of a commando with an ak with the caption, "keep the door closed, we don't want these types getting in here".:rolleyes:

Company policy prohibits firearms anywhere on the premises...even parking lots. Basically they disarm you to/from work and anywhere inbetween if you need groceries coming home.:fire:

So does that enlighten you a bit?

swingset
August 6, 2007, 06:49 AM
Here's an answer:

I carry at work because I shouldn't rely on others for my safety. It's not anyone else's duty to risk their butt to save mine, that goes for police, security guards, bystanders or otherwise.

If bad things happen at my workplace, as they have happened in countless otherwise "safe" workplaces where NO ONE thought they were in danger from violence, I don't want to cower under a desk hoping that the company's "security" will keep me from my demise....or wondering if the police will get there in time.

I take care of me. If you feel safe at work, without the need to carry or be prepared for bad things, then you're in the keeping of someone else. Do you trust anyone that much? Not me, bucko. Not me.

Deanimator
August 6, 2007, 12:16 PM
Why carry at work? you obviously haven't seen how far down in the barrel the owners of the company will scrape.....and often, I'm the guy who has to go tell them that they're all screwed up and make them scrap and re-build or rework product.

When I worked for a classified NASA contractor in the '80s and '90s:

1. One of the employees was an active bank robber. When he'd go tdy to Virginia and elsewhere, he'd rob banks. The FBI eventually picked him up at his office at NASA Lewis.

2. One of the NASA scientists in the Nuclear Propulsion Divisin was a maniac. They stopped letting him go to conferences because he would rant incoherently. When they wouldn't let him go anymore, he threatened to pay his own way. One day he commented to one of my co-workers that "he had a gun, and he'd GET 'them'". I reported him to the NASA Lewis Security Office. I doubt anything was ever done.

3. The guy who did maintenance and picked up mail at my company was caught stealing paychecks out of the mail and cashing them at shady convenience stores on the east side of Cleveland.

4. One of the maintenance guys and one of the low level programmer-analysts were on-fire anti-Semites. The programmer was a punk kid whose mother was doing one of the managers. He was always late because he was out all night delivering pizzas. She'd log him into the network when she came in to make it look like he was there and working. One day in the lunchroom he threatened a Jewish friend who ran the computer help desk. I told him that if he tried to carry out any such threats, he'd have a "hunting accident".

Yeah, assuming that you won't need to defend yourself at work is a bad idea.

Big Calhoun
August 6, 2007, 12:25 PM
Personally, I don't carry at work because it's against policies and I kind of need my job...liking my job is another story.

But to play devils advocate... I work in a highly technical and highly competitve industry where there is not only fierce competition to get to the 'top' but also competition just to keep your job on quarterly basis.

Now, mind you, I work in a 'corporate' office where most would think that the employees are educated and rationale, but that's not always the case. This office is also very nonsecure; your average security guard who is just some guy working retirement or a college kid with no real interest in their jobs or duties, no metal detectors, and access is gained by magnetic cards.

So, couple these factors with the high-stress and higly-competitive enviornment and declining corporate culture we work in and you could have a recipie for disaster. There is nothing to stop someone from bringing in ANY kind of weapon and going on a rampage if their having that kind of day.

crankshop1000
August 6, 2007, 12:28 PM
Geeez Goings_51 don't you watch the news? Anybody in a supervisory position has reason to be concerned. Things get heated quickly when some reject thinks you are ruining his life over a simple joke,reprimand,schedule change,layoff,cutback,promotion,demotion,benefit change....well you get the picture. I'd rather go down shooting than be executed sitting behind my desk. JMHO Chuck.

oobray
August 6, 2007, 01:14 PM
How about this. According to the Bureau of Justice statistics

1992-96
indicate that during each year U.S.
residents experienced more than 2 million victimizations


residents also
suffered 396,000 aggravated assaults,
51,000 rapes and sexual assaults,
84,000 robberies, and
1,000 homicides.

An interesting note. While white males are statistically the LEAST likely victims of violent crime outside of the workplace...
Nearly 9 in 10 of victims of workplace
violence were white males.

Does that answer the question?

Mannlicher
August 6, 2007, 01:31 PM
goings When I read through the various forums, I get the impression that many, many of you carry while at work whether allowed or not. All arguments about "locked in car" or postal worker jokes aside, why do you feel so threatened at work that you risk your job every day? What environment do you work in? Is the security inadequate?

I am trying to figure out why what others do is of any concern to you. Why do you feel the need to ask others for their reasons? Why folks carry a gun is a pretty personal choice. That some do so, even in the face of rules and regulations, indicates to me, that they feel they have reason enough to do so.

Dravur
August 6, 2007, 01:45 PM
and I work from home. I carry during work hours for the same reason I carry the rest of the time.

I have had incidences where the "neighbors" check my door to make sure it's locked. Now, Im not sure why they do this... out of a sense of protecting the community, is my guess.

But, just in case.....

and that's why I carry at work.

imatt
August 6, 2007, 01:52 PM
When I read through the various forums, I get the impression that many, many of you carry while at work whether allowed or not. All arguments about "locked in car" or postal worker jokes aside, why do you feel so threatened at work that you risk your job every day? What environment do you work in? Is the security inadequate?


Ever worked at a place that has had a disgruntled employee return with a rifle?

My company does not allow CC for that very reason. Seriously flawed logic - and it keeps me from carrying.


Thus I work from home as much as possible.

Zoogster
August 6, 2007, 02:02 PM
It sounds grim, but we need to establish legal precedent that an employer is liable for your death if you are denied carry rights at work and are killed as a result.

I think that is important. Anytime someone forces an employee into a specific role of dependency they must rely upon others for, they are liable for providing a need. It is valid to hold an employer responsible when they specify that someone cannot provide for one of thier own needs at thier own discretion.

If an employee is killed by another employee, they're liable for allowing the killer to have a weapon.
Only if they have a policy that mandates people MUST be armed. Otherwise once again it is the discretion of the private individual as to whether they are armed or not and in no way related to a decision by the employer. If it is concealed then the employer was not presented with a discretionary choice on its presence. Therefore the employer had no part in the decision making process or the weapons presence.

So if an employer says someone must be armed, or cannot be armed, then they have legaly decided to take responsibility for that decision and can be held accountable, and should be held accountable for thier policy decisions. Otherwise what an individual has personaly is not the responsibility of the employer and they are only accountable for actions taken that are within the scope of the job. Or if it is not concealed then obviously it suddenly becomes discretionary.

This reminds me of a policy I once saw someplace that someone else dealt with. The employer of an individual mandated that no drugs were allowed, and that those necessary had to be checked with some personel in the location. Well this person had asthma and was dependent on a prescription inhaler. They needed it one day and the person it was checked with was unavailable. The company was held liable because they had mandated a policy that made him unable to fend for himself. Now if he had forgot it out in his car or something on his own, they would not be liable without that policy. It would be his decision and his responsibility. By making a policy that mandated how he takes care of one of his own personal responsiblities the company took responsiblity, and therefore legal responsiblity and liability for the threats to safety a policy mandated.
I see the tools of self defense falling under the same legal responsiblity. If a company has no policy on whether someone has an item or not then an individuals actions with them are thier own responsiblity and they are personaly liable and not the company unless what they do is within the scope of thier employment, like security etc..Otherwise a gun, a knife, a flashlight, or what they bring for lunch is not something the employer had a part in, and if it is concealed then they had no discretion in allowing or not allowing it.
Once they make a policy that determines items allowed or disallowed which are used for any purpose, in this case self defense, then they assume liability and responsiblity.

So if someone dies or is injured in a place with a policy that does not allow the tools of self defense, then the place not allowing such tools was responsible for thier defense, and is liable for not providing it.

Prince Yamato
August 6, 2007, 02:43 PM
The fact is that as the population increases, so will the numbers of miscreants. Unfortunately, today's culture also has a large role to play in the severity of their activity as well. In the old days (whenever those were), people who were depressed tended to just shoot themselves, or jump out of office windows. Today, we live in an entitlement culture. People feel that not only should they never have to suffer any hardship, but that if their lives are miserable, yours should be too. Let me give you an example: years ago, depressed people crashed their cars into telephone polls to commit suicide, today, they crash into other cars, often killing the other occupants as well. If the stock market crashed today like it did in the 1930s, it is my hunch that instead of jumping out of office windows, the same people would go in and shoot up their workplaces. There's also a higher number of people on either illegal or legal mind altering drugs. You probably work with people who take all sorts of meds for problems that don't even really exist, but some psychologist told them they had. I frankly think there are more nuttier people than ever out in the world. There's also the common thug/robber of yore to worry about. If I COULD carry at work, I WOULD. Unfortunately, all I can carry at the University is a stupid can of pepper spray. Whole load of good that will do if some shooter bent on taking out a bunch of people were to walk in.

Reddbecca
August 6, 2007, 03:30 PM
How about the attack in that Chicago office building, over a toilet seat patent of all things? All that security, guards all around, none of it stopped the killing from happening.

XDKingslayer
August 6, 2007, 03:57 PM
When I read through the various forums, I get the impression that many, many of you carry while at work whether allowed or not. All arguments about "locked in car" or postal worker jokes aside, why do you feel so threatened at work that you risk your job every day? What environment do you work in? Is the security inadequate?

I work in a large lawfirm. Lawfirms have a nack for upsetting people. Twice this year alone we've had to call the police. One for a former employee being accosted in a nearby parking lot (she ran here for help) and another we actually had to have a Sheriff's deputy posted here for an upset husband. And just for giggles let's throw in the bomb scare at the Post Office next door.

Yeah. It's a little dangerous.

Sistema1927
August 6, 2007, 05:24 PM
Criminals and lunatics don't discriminate.

MICHAEL T
August 6, 2007, 10:33 PM
Because the nice safe placed I used to work. Man walked in and started shooting 2 dead 2 wounded. 1 complete breakdown never worked after that day on disability now and 1 tranfered to a different state. Shooter had been fired from company over a year before in a different state. Wow Wonder why people carry at work. Work is such a safe place.

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