UK gun laws


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Jason Mack
August 4, 2007, 09:01 AM
hi im a uk shooter am getting jealous reading about your handguns as uk shooters carnt own them my last handgun/s were S&W 686 and a H&K USP 9mm miss shooting them

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Novus Collectus
August 4, 2007, 09:51 AM
Visit the US or Canada for some shooting. Make it a sort of "gun tourism".

VincentWhytt
August 4, 2007, 10:13 AM
Always in the back of my mind while I complain about magazine capacity restrictions, minimum barrel lengths, and such is how "lucky" those of us in the U.S. are compared to those in the U.K. (and many other countries) I put lucky in quotation marks because I believe that we are lucky in the sense our rights are less infringed than theirs, and that I believe that having reasonable gun control laws (none, that is) does not make a country great, but that it is only proper and should be the standard as the right to defend one self is a basic human right.

Jason Mack
August 4, 2007, 10:21 AM
i was told years ago the your bill of rights was taken in sort for the british bill of rights in theroy they can not stop people in the uk from owning handguns (i think)

Deer Hunter
August 4, 2007, 10:25 AM
Kinda all goes back to the Magna Carta if you begin looking at the framework of England's bill of rights. Was John Locke's writings influential on England's law system at all?

Jason Mack
August 4, 2007, 10:43 AM
im still shooting own a Ruger 1022 but not the same as handguns ,did do some hand gun shooting last year in South Africa (got married over there to a SA lady ) shot a vector 9mm Bretta copy .the SA gun laws are getting tight too but you can still have a flame thrower for protection

Deer Hunter
August 4, 2007, 10:46 AM
When you can own a flame-thrower for protection, I highly doubt they are all that "tight".

Jason Mack
August 4, 2007, 10:54 AM
they changed the gun law in SA saying you carnt use a firearm for protection anymore plus they have to do a training course to be able to keep there guns my farther inlaw owns a cz in 380 i think didnt get a chance to shoot it

AndyC
August 4, 2007, 01:56 PM
Wrong.

You can use it for protection - the SA police are just harder on new applicants who put that down as their sole reason for wanting one. I have no clue where you got the flamethrower idea from - that's rubbish.

Edit: For reference: http://www.saga.org.za/FCA_basics.htm

Nomad101bc
August 4, 2007, 02:17 PM
I understood UK people can still use black powder weapons. Cant you use an old revolver type black powder hand gun?

Wow sucks to be in Arkansas home of the Clinton theres no magazine capacity laws in CT because they dont make any sense.

Jason Mack
August 4, 2007, 02:48 PM
Andyc they were selling the flame thrower at the Pretoria show 2004 so i think it was around then (saw with my own eyes even asked the seller if he was serious )

Jason Mack
August 4, 2007, 02:49 PM
yes we can still ues black powder relovers but not the same as a H&K USP lol

Novus Collectus
August 4, 2007, 02:51 PM
I understood UK people can still use black powder weapons. Cant you use an old revolver type black powder hand gun? I was curious earlier today so I looked it up. According to wikipedia: (i) - The exemption does not apply to ammunition, and the possession of live ammunition suitable for use with an otherwise antique firearm will normally indicate that the firearm is not possessed as a curio or ornament. (ii) - The exemption does not apply to firearms of modern manufacture which otherwise conform to the description above. Fully working modern firing replicas of muzzle-loading and breech-loading firearms, for example those used to fire blanks by historical re-enactment societies but capable of firing live ammunition, must be held on certificate. For these purposes, 'modern manufacture' should be taken to mean manufacture after the outbreak of the Second World War in 1939.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antique_guns#United_Kingdom_Antique_Gun_Laws
House of Commons release:
...For these reasons, some care must be exercised in seeking to single out particular certificated firearms as especially dangerous. The selection of firearms discussed below are chosen as having been the subject of some concern about their potential misuse and the Firearms Consultative Committee were accordingly asked to consider them as part of their work programme. The Government has not therefore sought to draw conclusions at this stage on their future status.

MUZZLE-LOADING REVOLVERS

Muzzle-loading revolvers, sometimes referred to as "percussion revolvers" or "cap-and~ball" revolvers, were an early attempt to design a pistol that could fire several shots in quick succession. They are loaded by placing a charge of gunpowder and a bullet in the front of each chamber of the revolver cylinder, and a separate percussion cap at a nipple in the rear of the cylinder. These were developed in the 1840s, were used in the Crimean War, the American Civil War and the early years of the "Wild West", before being superseded by more modern designs of breech-loading revolver.

During the passage of the 1997 Act, Parliament agreed that muzzle-loading guns should be exempt from the ban on handguns. As muzzle-loading revolvers were classed as muzzle-loading rather than breech-loading guns, these were included in the exemption.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/uc95/uc9507.htm

Not totally sure if I read this right, but it seems as if antique cap and ball revolvers made before 1939 are not controlled as long as they are never fired, and replica or "modern" C&B revolvers are legal to own and fire as long as a firearms certificate is held.

Jason Mack
August 4, 2007, 02:58 PM
yes your right black powder guns are ok but we carnt shoot black powder in an indoor range only the moden version also there doing a nitro coverson of the BP revolvers using pistol primers

Jason Mack
August 4, 2007, 03:04 PM
just rememberd the UK government put all hand guns in to section 5 ie in the same section as fully auto /selfloading firearms most UK shooters have a section 1 certificate or a shotgun certificate you have to have a very good reasion to have a section 5 certificate ie gunsmith or film armourer .my point is that handgun crime in the UK has risen since the ban they just took the guns of the good guys and left the bad guys alone

Matt_W
August 4, 2007, 03:12 PM
No need to visit the US is you are only interested in shooting pistols for target practice on the range.

Northern Ireland, The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man (not sure about the Isle of Wight) all still allow target practice and ownership of centre fire handguns.

Novus Collectus
August 4, 2007, 03:13 PM
yes your right black powder guns are ok but we carnt shoot black powder in an indoor range only the moden version also there doing a nitro coverson of the BP revolvers using pistol primers What is a nitro conversion?

Matt_W
August 4, 2007, 03:25 PM
The English Bill of Rights protects your common law right to arms for your defence.

None of the UK Firearms legislation repeals Article 7 of the English Bill of Rights and instead it has added a legal requirement to obtain a certificate (not a licence BTW) that shows that the Police are happy that you can own firearms without being a danger to your community or the Queen's peace.

The legislation requires each applicant to provide the police with a 'good reason' for owning a firearm. It also forces the police to issue the certificate if they are satisfied with the reason. The legislation does not define 'good reason' and instead the Gov. and the Police decide amongst themselves what is and is not a 'good reason'.

In 1947 it was decided without a vote in Parliament that self defence would be no longer thought of as being a 'good reason' because 'no one in the UK needs a firearm for personal protection any longer'. (Perhaps it was wishful thinking after WWII)

So it is only 'policy' that prevents firearms from being owned in the UK for SD. There is no actual legislation.

One day society may need to re-evaluate patterns of violent of crime in the UK because as far as the Firearms Acts are concerned it has not been looked at since 1947 and a lot has changed since then.

Jason Mack
August 4, 2007, 03:54 PM
they take a BP revolver fit new cyilnder and proof it for nitro powders as in cartrage amo its less fowling and ok to shoot indoor ranges

Novus Collectus
August 4, 2007, 04:15 PM
Wow, you mean cap and ball revolvers can be made to shoot smokeless powder without using a brass case? Now that is something worth looking into because my biggest beef with my C&P revolver is the friggin mess from shooting black powder. I have a conversion cylinder to shoot .45 Long Colt in them nowadays, but damn, just the novelty alone would be worth the time and money to do it.

Odd Job
August 4, 2007, 05:02 PM
they changed the gun law in SA saying you carnt use a firearm for protection anymore plus they have to do a training course to be able to keep there guns my farther inlaw owns a cz in 380 i think didnt get a chance to shoot it

Welcome to THR, Jason Mack.

Please use some punctuation there, buddy, it is difficult to read your posts.


South Africa: I think you have interpreted the state of affairs incorrectly there. There is no way you would get away with using a flame thrower for defense. If I remember correctly even the Blaster anti-hijack system was pulled from the market because of road incendiary hazards, and the product that replaced it operated with CS gas.
Even if you used a handgun for defense they would lock you up if so much as a duck's bill was out of place in the perceived line-up, if you know what I mean ;)
I made a citizen's arrest back in '94 (with a Baby Browning, of all things), and although I was entitled to effect that arrest at the time, the political climate is such that things wouldn't go down quite so well if I pulled that same stunt in downtown Joburg today. So things are getting worse for South African gun owners, and even those of us who do have licenses will struggle to get additional licenses if the weapon is in the same class as a weapon that is already licensed to you. I fell foul of this in the late 90s, but that is another story.

Anyway, as far as the UK laws are concerned, there is no way I could get a handgun for self-defense. It doesn't matter whether it is a printed law or not, the effect is the same: no gun for self-defense. It doesn't just apply to guns. If you are stopped and searched and found to have a knife, the last thing you want to say is that it is for self defense. You see, the guns and knives are what cause murders and perpetuate violence(TM) . When gun crime isn't in the spotlight, then it is knife crime. Only lately has there been some shift in the apportionment of blame towards 'gang culture' but what is really needed is for parents and teens to accept personal responsibility for what is going on.
But I digress, the discussion of the nanny state can be reserved for another occasion.

What is really needed by all of us on both sides of the pond and equator, is a healthy reality check. Constitutions, amendments, privileges, rights etc are not guarantees. Nobody can guarantee anything. If the majority of your fellow citizens decide that it is best for you not to have guns, then that is what will happen. There haven't been any riots because of the firearms restrictions here in the UK, and I don't recall any riots in (insert gun unfriendly state here) when (insert weapon type, mag restriction) was enforced.

Does that make any sense?
Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest. Whether it is written or not, a right or not, you don't get anything changed unless you cause a helluva scene about it. And that needs numbers.

Check the petitions here, and note the numbers:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/list/open?sort=signers

There are double the amount of signatories who want to ride horses two abreast, than signatories who want our shooters to get their pistols back so that they can practise for the Olympic games.

And I know this is cliched, but I gotta add it: :rolleyes:

Matt_W
August 4, 2007, 05:21 PM
All very true, rights have to be exercised or they are lost. You cannot rely on mere words printed on paper to protect you or your rights.

Here in the UK we have a law that allows us arms for our defence and plenty of other laws that should prevent criminal assaults from every happening - so much for legislation eh?

Deaf Smith
August 4, 2007, 11:25 PM
Jason,

Can you get us a link or something as to where you get the equipment to turn a black powder cap-n-ball revolver to a smokless one? Many of us would be interested in how and were it's done.

Thanks!

Nomad101bc
August 5, 2007, 02:03 AM
The british government could have at least had the courtesy to sell all those "confiscated" hand guns to the US. If you ask me just destroying them seems rather stupid when you could make alot of money selling those firearms you stole i mean "confiscated" from your citizens.

Prince Yamato
August 5, 2007, 02:21 AM
What happened to England in the last 25 years? Every time I hear of all the bad laws over there, it just befuddles me. I'm always looking to the words set to Elgar's "Pomp and Circumstance no. 2" (for Americans, that's what's played at all our graduation ceremonies).

Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee,
Who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider
Shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet.

How many of those words still apply to the Crown? I mean, cripes, England used to rule 1/3 of the world. They practically invented the term "civilized". You'd think allowing their citizens to own handguns wouldn't be a big deal... "Mother of the Free"... more like "British Nanny-State".

Here's to a return to your glory days.

Coronach
August 5, 2007, 02:44 AM
Let's keep this on point. Talk about the legalities of handgun ownership, or this gets closed. This is not L&P_Lite.

Coronach

Jason Mack
August 5, 2007, 04:25 AM
Deaf Smith will see if i can find the BP conversion link .............

VincentWhytt
August 6, 2007, 08:08 PM
Nomad101bc,(and anyone else who was wondering) there aren't capacity laws in Arkansas, I just complain they exist at all. After all, "An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere".

Novus Collectus
October 5, 2007, 02:21 PM
Deaf Smith will see if i can find the BP conversion link ............. I have a confession to make. After a little while I thought you had no clue what you were talking about, but sure enough months later I am glad to discover I was wrong and you were correct!
Here is your link. http://westlakeengineering.com/4640/4694.html

Awesome!! I want one.

TokyoShapiro
October 6, 2007, 04:06 PM
i did some shooting at Bisley many years back and it had a good time. even then it was a great hassle. yes uk gun laws are draconian but it was no problem getting a gun either in Manchester or in East London. of course that would be illegal. it doesn"t seem to stop the bag guys any.

Right Wing Wacko
October 6, 2007, 04:33 PM
Andy C wrote:
Wrong.

You can use it for protection - the SA police are just harder on new applicants who put that down as their sole reason for wanting one. I have no clue where you got the flamethrower idea from - that's rubbish.



http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9812/11/flame.thrower.car/

Odd Job
October 6, 2007, 06:16 PM
That's an old link.
As to the question of whether it blinds and doesn't kill, that isn't true. I have a short clip somewhere of this Blaster being used and it roasted a mannequin placed alongside the vehicle. Granted the suspect wouldn't hang around, but I guarantee he would get burned badly.

Anyway the Blaster is a rather academic topic of discussion because the butane tanks needed to supply the door-sill nozzles were ruled to be a hazard in the event of a vehicle collision and subsequent versions of the anti-hijack system were made to expel CS gas only.
If I can find that video I'll post pics.

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