Something interesting happened at the gun show today...


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BitterBeerFace
August 4, 2007, 06:57 PM
So I was wandering around the gun show today, and noticed a nice little S&W 642 in a case. I ask if I can see it, the dealer pulls it out from under the glass and hands it to me. As always, I keep my finger well away from the trigger and take a closer look. I notice something that I shouldn't have seen... the butt-end of cartridges in the cylinders... I open it up, and no, they're not already fired (my first thought was potentially to allow dry firing). I drop 5 hollow points out of it, and the dealer says "holy ****".

Nothing bad happened, but I could certainly see someone a little too trusting or a less safety minded just assuming it's unloaded and potentially bad things happening from there.

I've been to a fair number of shows and never seen that before. This was a long-time and well known local dealer.

Have any of you had something similar happen at shows? Or even worse, accidental discharges?

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Bazooka Joe71
August 4, 2007, 07:05 PM
Reason number 8,934 why you always treat a gun as if its loaded!

Leanwolf
August 4, 2007, 07:19 PM
BITTERBEERFACE - "Have any of you had something similar happen at shows? Or even worse, accidental discharges?"


Yep, surely have.

Except to make it clear, there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge." They are what I call in the truest sense of the word, "C.Ds.," or "Careless Discharges!"

That said, I've had a table several times at the Boise Gun Show. Abour eight months ago, while setting up on the morning of the g.s. opening, a guy who had a table two tables down the aisle from me, was putting a foreign semi-automatic .45 ACP on his table when BOOM!!

The 230 grains FMJ bullet hit the concrete floor about six feet from me and scattered concrete chips around like mini shrapnel. A piece hit my jeans covered leg but only stung. A friend of mine who had a table behind me got a blood blister from either a copper fragment or a concrete chip.

Fortunately, no one else was hit by the bullet.

Of course, the man was told to gather up his guns & stuff and leave immediately, which he did... embarrassed and apologetic as Hell and proclaiming, "I don't know how that cartridge got in that pistol!"

It got in his pistol because he was CARELESS!!! He didn't bother to check the pistol before leaving home.

About three years ago, another older man who had a table at every Boise gun show, had a Colt Govt. Model .45 ACP on his table. A guy asked to see it,. He handed it to him, the guy pointed it at the ceiling and pulled the trigger and BOOM!!!! SXT (same exact thing) as in the first episode, except no one was hit by fragments of a bullet. Table holder was told to pack up and leave then and there. Careless Discharge. :fire:

That's my story.

L.W.

bogie
August 4, 2007, 07:41 PM
Conversely, someone _could_ have loaded it - speedloader, whatever... There are folks out there who would like gun shows closed down, and they'd rationalize the death of a "gun nut" as being okay to do it...

BitterBeerFace
August 4, 2007, 07:59 PM
Leanwolf: Do you ask people to leave for something like what I encountered? A loaded weapon that wasn't carelessly discharged? Are there rules like "nothing except certain weapons by the 'guard guys' can ever be loaded"?

Cannonball888
August 4, 2007, 08:12 PM
Things like this just gives antis another reason to try to close gun shows.
IMO every pistol on display at a gun show should be disabled with a zip tie through the barrel and rifles by other means.

sacp81170a
August 4, 2007, 08:25 PM
That's why you check every gun if it's been out of your direct observation or possession at any time. I've heard of antis purposely putting rounds in the chambers of guns randomly at gun shows, like others have said. I wouldn't put it past some of them. :barf:

Rule #1: Treat every gun as if it were loaded until you confirm otherwise. (The italicized part is what extremists forget.)

HardKnox
August 4, 2007, 08:34 PM
now that sounds a little far fetched, someone who is anti gun going into a gun show with several bullets of whatever calibur, and sneaking the bullets into a gun in that specific calibur? i thought most antis couldnt even recognise the shoulder thing that goes up, and now someone is giving them credit for identifying and compromising specific guns at a gun show?:scrutiny:

El Tejon
August 4, 2007, 08:47 PM
Hard, I don't put anything past the antis. Look at what the Enviromentalists are doing--shooting and poisoning cattle, arson of dwellings and motor vehicles, vandalism of property, etc.

All guns are always loaded. Sound familiar? Right, it's Rule #1.

All guns are always loaded. No, not "treat", they are loaded since if they were unloaded they would be worthless. All guns are always loaded. Does not matter if you "think" they are unloaded, as they are not, they are loaded.

Bitter, yes, it happens. People think that cable ties will somehow "disable" human stupidity.:rolleyes:

Bitter, go to more shows and you will hear and see it more. It happened in Indianapolis a couple of times recently. Numbnuts are attracted to guns like moths to flame. Bravo to you for remembering that the Four Rules always apply even at a gun show were guard guys always check to see if the disabled guns are unloaded.

RH822
August 4, 2007, 09:18 PM
IMO every pistol on display at a gun show should be disabled with a zip tie through the barrel and rifles by other means.

At the the two shows I regularly attend in Indiana, every gun, long-gun or handgun is zip tied, customer ccw's included. I believe that may be a state requirement here in Indiana.

RH

sacp81170a
August 4, 2007, 09:21 PM
All guns are always loaded.

Not trying to be a jerk, but how do you check the bore for obstructions, cleanliness and condition, especially if you can't look down it from the breech? Do you point a "loaded" gun at your own head? ;)

There are a few exceptions to rule #2. There is never an exception to rule #1. If you haven't checked it, it's loaded.

BlindJustice
August 4, 2007, 09:33 PM
USN - AD below decks during Security Alert was the last straw
for a Petty Officer 3rd Class... he went back to being an E-3 Able
Bodied Seaman in Deck Division.

rdaines
August 4, 2007, 09:38 PM
Last Fall at the Tulsa gun show a dealer was shot with a 410 shot gun. A case where the trigger guy thought it was unloaded, it wasn't.
And, yes, I've heard the possible urban legend of antis loading guns at shows. I'm sure anything is possible but hard to believe it is.

Cannonball888
August 4, 2007, 09:56 PM
People think that cable ties will somehow "disable" human stupidity.No one is saying that. You can't disable stupidity. A zip tie just makes the gun safe. .

Geronimo45
August 4, 2007, 10:37 PM
I've heard the possible urban legend of antis loading guns at shows. I'm sure anything is possible but hard to believe it is.
I'm sure there's some real nutjobs in that movement that would consider it... but you'd think that the owner of the gun would be watching him to whom the gun has been momentarily given. After all, haven't we all seen The Terminator? Arnold picks up a few weapons, loads a shotgun he decided to purchase, and shoots the dealer. One would think that the gun folks would be on their guard against such things. But who knows?

MKEITH
August 4, 2007, 11:21 PM
Around here, all guns at the gunshows are disabled with a ziptie as soon as they are brought through the door.

tinygnat219
August 5, 2007, 12:04 AM
I beleive that some of the antis might do a little research. I wouldn't put it past them. That's why I always hand the cylinder back to the owner / dealer open, or the slide back with the magazine in my other hand.

Cliff47
August 5, 2007, 12:20 AM
I was at a gun show a few seeks back and as things were getting rolling about 9:00, there is a very loud "BANG". Heads swivelled in the direction of the noise, it got VERY quiet for about one minute. Turns out someone had dropped an ammo can that was loaded with ammunition on the concrete floor. It did reverberate.

One of the 'Rules of the road' at the show was that ALL actions would be tied with a zip-tie so that a round could not be inserted in the chamber. There have been members of Washington CeaseFire that have attended the shows and tried to insert a round in the firearm. It has gotten to where some of the vendors will pick up the pistol (rifle, shotgun), check the chamber, THEN hand someone the firearm for that 'closer look'. The firearm is then handed back to the seller, who then verifies the status of the chamber, prior to placing the firearm back on the table. May be extreme, but it works.

Good on 'ya for checking the chamber first. That must have raised the 'pucker factor' of the seller no end.

sacp81170a
August 5, 2007, 12:34 AM
It has gotten to where some of the vendors will pick up the pistol (rifle, shotgun), check the chamber, THEN hand someone the firearm for that 'closer look'. The firearm is then handed back to the seller, who then verifies the status of the chamber, prior to placing the firearm back on the table. May be extreme, but it works.

Extreme? I thought that was the basic procedure for any firearm. That's what I've always practiced and taught. It's a breech of safety rules and etiquette not to do it that way.

There have been members of Washington CeaseFire that have attended the shows and tried to insert a round in the firearm.

:barf::barf::barf:

Neo-Luddite
August 5, 2007, 01:11 AM
The last couple of guns shows I've seen dealers just having weapons' triggers zip tied hard back in the 'fired' position of trigger travel and some actions similarly closed in the same manner.

joplinsks
August 5, 2007, 01:29 AM
Like another poster said, a discharge happened at the Tulsa Wanamacher show last fall. I walked by the aisle about an hour after it happened and there was glass everywhere and was a huge mess. Apparently the 410 shot went through a display case with a few people being hit by flying glass.

Another discharge happened at the last NW Arkansas show in Springdale about 6 weeks ago. A guy did what he thought was a dry fire and somehow lost a finger from it with the bullet eventually going into the ceiling.

They certainly happen despite all of the security, checks, and "four rules". Not that often, but they do happen. :what:

fishingjld
August 5, 2007, 01:31 AM
i always wonder if i look like a big a**hole for checking the chamber everytime someone hands me a gun to look at. i just think it is the smartest thing you can do to avoid any kind of problems. YOUR SITUATION REINFORCES THIS THOUGHT! i did have a gentlemen at a local gun store hand me a pistol and not check it himself. when i did so he says very abruptly that its not loaded. i just thought wow but what if it was.

Two Cold Soakers
August 5, 2007, 01:43 AM
Quote:
It has gotten to where some of the vendors will pick up the pistol (rifle, shotgun), check the chamber, THEN hand someone the firearm for that 'closer look'. The firearm is then handed back to the seller, who then verifies the status of the chamber, prior to placing the firearm back on the table. May be extreme, but it works.

Extreme? I thought that was the basic procedure for any firearm. That's what I've always practiced and taught. It's a breech of safety rules and etiquette not to do it that way.


Same here.

ALWAYS check the chamber of EVERY gun before it leaves your hands and as it enters your hands.

ArfinGreebly
August 5, 2007, 02:36 AM
Reason number 8,934 why you always treat a gun as if its loaded!
Actually, this would be Reason #1 why you always treat a gun as though it's loaded.

At the very top of that list of reasons is the seeming tautology:
You always treat a gun as though it's loaded, because it's actually loaded.

Hoppy590
August 5, 2007, 02:46 AM
the antis are not above doing it. after all. its for the children. and i read a story about one admiting to it. though it could have been anywhere from the front page of TIME magazine to the back page of STAR weekly.

i agree. dealers should make a habit of checking before and after showing a gun.

i do not think guns should be ziptied. i want to check bore and action. not have to ask politely while a dealer removes a zip tie for the 10,000th time that day because other people are too dumb/immoral to handle a firearm properly.

Nomad101bc
August 5, 2007, 03:22 AM
Well it would not be very hard for even the most incompetant anti to slip one in a pump action shot gun since 12 gauge is so common and will fire just about anything you put in it. Same with .45 1911 these are also extremely common but i doubt they would be able to load some of the more exotic calibers such as a .44 magnum.

garymc
August 5, 2007, 03:41 AM
If you open the action to examine the chamber(s), throat, firing pin, extractor, ejector, etc., what makes the other guy think you're checking to see if he stupidly left it loaded?

WeedWhacker
August 5, 2007, 05:37 AM
At the the two shows I regularly attend in Indiana, every gun, long-gun or handgun is zip tied, customer ccw's included.

Because gun-free zones are great!

They'd never know I'd had one to zip-tie. :P

rangerruck
August 5, 2007, 05:42 AM
a dude blew his finger off, at a houston gunshow about 1 month ago.

Black Adder LXX
August 5, 2007, 11:13 AM
Around here, all guns at the gunshows are disabled with a ziptie as soon as they are brought through the door.

Same here in S Fla. Good thing too with all the 'ignant gang-bangers' around here.

Kevin108
August 5, 2007, 12:03 PM
now that sounds a little far fetched...

I lost a hard drive a few months back and along with it several years worth of bookmarks, but I am almost positive I read an article just last year about a woman who was caught and arrested for attempting to load weapons at a gun show.

Leanwolf
August 5, 2007, 03:38 PM
BITTER BEER FACE - "Leanwolf: Do you ask people to leave for something like what I encountered? A loaded weapon that wasn't carelessly discharged?"

BBF, unless a Security Guard were the one examining the firearm and found the loaded cartridges in the cylinder, no one would ask the dealer/vendor to leave. Afterall, who would know other than the dealer/vendor, and the person who saw the cartridges in the firearm??

As for the Boise Gun Shows (six per year), since the Careless Discharge of three years ago, all firearms have to be zip tied. If a potential buyer wants to "seriously" check the bore, action, etc., etc., the dealer or private party cuts the zip tie. If the person doesn't want to buy it, the dealer or private party puts a new zip tie on it and it goes back on the table.

The person of whom I wrote in the first episode, was pulling handguns out of a large bag when he pulled out the foreign semi-auto .45 ACP. We were never sure what happened but think that it was cocked and he had his finger on the trigger when he pulled it out of the bag. (???) He obviously had not bothered to check it before putting it in the bag with his other handguns and leaving home.

Security Guards walk the gun show observing the tables and if there is a firearm on a table without a zip tie, they demand one be placed on the firearm. Any "private party" walking the aisles with guns he hopes to sell, has to attach zip ties when he comes in the front door.

That's the way it works here.

L.W.

Nomad101bc
August 5, 2007, 03:44 PM
Imagine if they did that at used car dealerships. Sorry you cant go inside the car the tires have also been zip tied for your safety otherwise you could potentially hurt yourself with it...Its a great car i assure you you will like it but you cant look inside you might accidently put the keys in the ignition and drive...

Geno
August 5, 2007, 03:50 PM
Every firearm I pick-up, I check the chamber. Good for you doing the same! As my Grandfather used to say, "It's the empty gun that kills!" You just held the example of which he spoke!

rdaines
August 5, 2007, 03:53 PM
Sorry dude but zip ties are OK with me, I don't want to be shot in the back by some guy checking out a gun. Dry firing a gun should be done with the owner's/seller's permission, I'd think they'd be glad to check it's loaded/unloaded status before handing over the gun.

DMK
August 5, 2007, 03:58 PM
If a potential buyer wants to "seriously" check the bore, action, etc., etc., the dealer or private party cuts the zip tie. If the person doesn't want to buy it, the dealer or private party puts a new zip tie on it and it goes back on the table.
That's the way they do it here too. It's no big deal.


"It has gotten to where some of the vendors will pick up the pistol (rifle, shotgun), check the chamber, THEN hand someone the firearm for that 'closer look'. The firearm is then handed back to the seller, who then verifies the status of the chamber, prior to placing the firearm back on the table. May be extreme, but it works."

Extreme? I thought that was the basic procedure for any firearm. That's what I've always practiced and taught. It's a breech of safety rules and etiquette not to do it that way.

ALWAYS check the chamber of EVERY gun before it leaves your hands and as it enters your hands.
That can't be reinforced enough. If this simple procedure was always followed, there would never be a CD. Kinda like how we were taught to always hand someone a knife with the handle first when we were kids

Hoppy590
August 5, 2007, 07:49 PM
That can't be reinforced enough

rules/laws should not be made based on ENFORCEMENT. they should be based on the rights of free men. and restricting the good people for the actions of the bad is not good form to me.

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