Obviously, only answer if you feel comfortable with the question...
Would you CCW into a home (private residence) if you know one of the following;
- The person(s) or family is outwardly anti-handgun. but has not explicetly stated that handguns are not allowed in the home.
- The person(s) or family's position on handguns is not known to you.
- The person(s) or family has explicitly stated that they do not "allow' firearms in their home.
Additionally, if you know, is it legally actionable to carry into a home that the owner does not allow handguns in. So ultimately, if the homeowner found out after the fact, he could take action.
Uhhhh and, does the homeowner bear some responsibility should anything 'go wrong' with your handgun while your on their property. So are you putting the home owner at risk by carrying onto his property?
Some social, some legal ....
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January 8, 2003, 07:39 PM
Have in the past and will in the future.
What they don't know wont hurt them.
January 8, 2003, 07:41 PM
I have on a couple of occasions. One of them was after going out shooting with the husband. I didn't realize it at the time but apparantly he zips his pants up on the side and no guns were allowed in the house (first scenario).
Second time was after a fund raiser and a large amount of cash was involved. We went back to his house and I took off my covering shirt exposing the USP on my hip. No problems or strange looks from them.
Third scenario: CA hasn't seen fit to recognize my CCW so I can't test my parents. :D
January 8, 2003, 07:43 PM
I will unless they ask me not to. Doing so afterward would not be showing respect for them in their home.
edited for spelling.
January 8, 2003, 07:43 PM
Well, if they're vehemently anti, they most likely wouldn't be friends of mine, so I wouldn't be visiting anyway.
If they stated "no handguns" , I wouldn't come. I'll respect their rules, and they can have their little helpless sheep party on their own. I've only broken that rule with my dear old grandma - I care enough about her, my own safety, and the safety of my family to carry into her home, even though she told me to disarm at Thanksgiving. I removed the gun she accidently "patted down", but had another on me.
If they didn't say "no handguns" - don't ask, don't tell.
I'm no lawyer, so I don't know what kind, if any, action they could take if they discover you're carrying and have an issue with it, or what happens if there's a gun incident involving a guest.
January 8, 2003, 07:47 PM
January 8, 2003, 07:48 PM
It would be very impolite to carry a gun into the home of someone who was opposed to the idea.
Their logic may be flawed and downright stupid, but its still their house, so they can have their rules.
I agree with ROTL that I probably would not be invited to a vehemently anti-gun person's home in the first place.
January 8, 2003, 08:02 PM
I have and I would. They won't be escorting me to and from my car, and if the would, it wouldn't do any good if Mr. Goblin came to pay a call.
January 8, 2003, 08:20 PM
I don't know; I don't really socialize with any Antis. :confused:
January 8, 2003, 08:30 PM
I don't carry and my "anti" friends don't like me anymore.
January 8, 2003, 08:31 PM
Hah, year of the first MMM, Dennis and I went to visit our local chapter at a place called the Peacecenter. It wasn't posted, they knew we where coming and they didn't tell us not to pack. But out of some misguided decision of youth I thought was respect, (but some people don't deserve any), I slipped my Springfield into the glovebox and Dennis didn't. Looking back I probably should have kept it on, but oh well, Dennis could protect me.:D
I carry pretty much anywhere now, I have never been asked not to pack by anyone inviting me over. If they did, I wouldn't be going.
January 8, 2003, 08:33 PM
Yes, but I kept it conceled so nobody the wiser.:scrutiny:
January 8, 2003, 08:38 PM
As a rule I never carry in anyone's residence unless I am VERY familiar with them and if they "make" me it won't jeopardize the relationship I have with them. That goes for anti and gunowners alike.
As previously stated by other posters, I more than likely would not have freinds like that. There is a big difference between a freind and an aquaintance. I may go to church with you and visit on occasional, but it takes a lot before I label someone as a "freind".
January 8, 2003, 08:45 PM
Much like rest ... doubt I'd be visiting any major anti's. If no request made then I'd carry as normal .. if I knew of a problem tho then .. like with smoking .. you respect the house owner's wishes.
My son has been married a year plus and recently we picked up some drywall in my truck .. as we unloaded at his place (me in t-shirt) ... his in laws rolled up (great timing ... usual for them!) ...... and I had my piece as usual in sho rig.
FIL asks ''you going shooting''?? .....:rolleyes: this was after dark ... ''no says I - I carry'' ... ''oh says he'' ... and that was about it. :p Not sure what MIL thought ... anyways ... no requests for removal or major tantrums so .. as often the case .. acceptance is gained.
I think I trotted out the old ''better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6''!!:neener:
January 8, 2003, 08:45 PM
If anyone told me not to come to their home with a concealed weapon, I would not go to their home.
January 8, 2003, 09:19 PM
Yea! Because I sometimes do what others don't want tme to do. Besides that, don't tell...that's what concealed carry is all about.
Let a sleeping dog lie......
January 8, 2003, 09:23 PM
Yes; if carrying, would take off shoes and leave handgun on.
January 8, 2003, 09:27 PM
To the original question: yes, yes & yes.
Is it legally actionable by them for you doing so? Good question. Alas, nearly anyone can sue for nearly anything.
January 8, 2003, 09:43 PM
My inherent right to self-defense by any means I choose is not subject to anyone's opinion. I'll carry what I want, where I want and suffer any "negative" consequences should I need to utilize my tool(s) of choice.
Seems illogical to operate any other way...but that would just be my personal opinion as a human being in general and an American citizen in particular.
That said, like many other posters in this thread, I don't like to spend time with sheeple...I can barely stomach the attitudes of freeloaders of any sort, much less those who would willingly put me and mine at risk for the sake of their misguided and historically-disproven ideology.
January 8, 2003, 10:02 PM
I figure if I'm not welcome armed, I'm not welcome, period. That's their loss.
January 8, 2003, 10:08 PM
January 8, 2003, 10:10 PM
I don't go to the homes of antis. I guess because all my friends have guns!
January 8, 2003, 10:52 PM
My belife is that my personal safety is my personal reponsibility and it really isn't up to anyone else to decide whether or not it is to be temporarily compromised while I am in their presence simply because of their adversion to firearms.
And I seriously doubt that anyone who suscribes to the anti-gun 'sheep' mindset is going to be comfortable assuming the responsibility for my personal safety while I am in their home (or anywhere else for that matter) regardless whether I am armed or not.
That said, I'm a firm believer in the motto 'don't ask, don't tell'. What they don't know won't hurt them, be it emotionally, physically or otherwise.
Could that be considered disrespectful? Only in the same sense as forbiding me to carry the tools necessary to defend myself while I am in your presence. Requiring someone to disarm before they can feel comfortable around you is rude and un-American, period.
As always, the obvious solution is to avoid socializing with those type of bottom feeders to begin with. But unfortunately, that isn't always possible. So we have to grin and bear it while keeping our mouths shut.
January 8, 2003, 10:59 PM
Like some others have said. If I knew ahead of time then I would not out of respect for their home.
....But then I probably wouldn't be at a home like that. :banghead:
January 8, 2003, 11:06 PM
I have and do! Just make sure the concealed means concealed. Like always! Good shooting:)
January 8, 2003, 11:16 PM
I have some friends who are not necesarily antis but would not want guns in their house for a variety of reasons (it's not the same thing, believe it or not). They are not any less my friends than those who are gun friendly and I would never question my friendship with them based on difference of opinions on any matter. We obviously have many more things and morals that we share than those that we don't. That is what makes us friends.
I met a couple of people in my life that agree with you on everything even if you change your mind every two seconds. It is quite boring to have a conversation with such a person and not one of them I would call a friend.
Just my two cents worth
January 9, 2003, 12:02 AM
I carry into all sorts of homes. I don't volunteer any information. I come and I go. If they specifically told me, "Do not carry into my house." Depending on who it is, I might or might not go over there. I don't have many friends who know I pack and have an objection. They know part of me is my Glock 27 and everywhere I go, there is a high probability it is with me.
January 9, 2003, 12:16 AM
Over the years, I have found that I can have differences of opinion with friends on many topics; religion, specific political issues, food, sports, whatever. The one issue I will not differ with someone on is Personal Responsibility For One's Own Actions. Someone that does not have this as a core tenet of their life is not someone I want to be friends with. A side result of this is that my friends tend to have similar views on certain topics that are touched by this core issue, firearms being one of them. I know many people who are ambivalent about them or don't personally own any, but no one I associate with thinks they're "evil" or shies at the sight of one.
January 9, 2003, 12:24 AM
In their home it is their right to not have any concealed weopens enter it, just as it our right to carry them legally where we are allowed to do so. I would respect their wishes and rights as I hope they would respect mine. If they don't, it looks bad on them, I don't need to do something that looks bad on me or "us".
January 9, 2003, 01:15 AM
I was friends with some of the people I mentioned way before I was into shooting. I could not agree with you more that this is a very important issue to know where you stand on. I have a friend who is not against my or anyone else's carrying but she just about fainted when she saw another friend of ours open his trunk and take out a BB gun. I would probably give her a heart attack if I carried into her home even though we never really discussed the issue.
On the other hand, I did bring a gun with me and had it loaded and locked in my bag at my parents house last time I went to MD. I am pretty sure they would not like that but I never brought it up and they had no idea. And even though I knew they would never in a million years go through my bag, I checked on it every couple of hours or so.
I guess my answer should be I would carry into a house if I did not know where the people stood on the issue but I still would not carry into a house of someone who specifically did not want me bringing the guns into.
However, I might change my mind when I get my CCW and say, "What they don't know won't hurt them and it might even help in case someone breaks in". Who knows? I guess I would really be able to test the first C of CCW then.
January 9, 2003, 02:52 AM
These kinds of threads always make me giggle just a little. "Would you carry into church? Would you carry to a friend's house? would you carry to an anti's house? would you carry to a mall? would you carry to work?"
The answer to all the above is, I carry. But I don't carry to anywhere. I go places and do things, and I carry while doing them.
What I have on under my outer clothing is nobody's business but mine, regardless of where I am.
Why don't they just put up a sign that says, "No robberies allowed"? -- Don Stahlnecker
January 9, 2003, 03:05 AM
Just say "Shhh....promise not to tell anyone....I'm CIA." ;)
January 9, 2003, 06:44 AM
In a friggen heartbeat!! I ain't gunna walk into a crimminal safe zone!! Why do you think they call it CONCEALED!!! :banghead:
January 9, 2003, 06:45 AM
CCW here states I must announce to residence owner I'm CCW. Subject to a misdemenor, loss of license, can't get again...etc.
I don't socialize with anti's much less go to their home. Concealed is concealed, I carry and go places. I have a right to MY privacy.
January 9, 2003, 10:05 AM
I'm sure nobody can live without my opinion :rolleyes: so here goes.
I don't think I have any friends or family who are anti and I agree that as a rule hardcore antis and hardcore RKBA people typically disagree on more than just that and therefore tend not to mix socially at all.
As Sheslinger noted we do have a friend who is not anti RKBA but is scared of them and uneducated about them. I believe that out of respect for your friend and their house you should not carry. I believe this for a couple of reasons.
We tend to think of things as black and white, RKBA vs ANTI. That is true on a small scale but on a larger scale most people fall somewhere on the fence about the issue. The reason for this is they see the news and all the bad press but are smart enough to realize they really don't have any education on the topic at hand.
By respecting their rules, fears, whatever you are able to both open a dialogue with them about RKBA and at the same time show them what that gun owners are no different then they are. They are respectful, intelligent, friendly people who just happen to like shooting for a myriad of reasons. By showing them this I have found that most people eventually ask to see the gun, or go shooting or just want to learn a bit more about the subject. Once that starts it is only a matter of time before carrying in their house is a non issue.
I don't believe we can "Win The War" by arguing, fighting or winning this election or that election. We can't isolate ourselves from the those who don't know any better. We have to always be willing to present our views in respectful, intelligent ways and sometimes that might mean doing something you may not be comfortable with at the time. I have never seen somebody change their mind after an argument. I have only seen it happen after then take the initive to educate themselves and we need to be available to educate.
Our friend who is scared of firearms is slowly inching toward taking the time to learn about them and possibly go shooting. This would never have happened if we just gave up on her as a friend because she had different views.
I have, "Turned" for lack of a better term quite a few people to our side simply by respecting what they have to say, their views and their rules and giving them a chance to respect mine.
Hard core anti vs hard core RKBA...it ain't never gonna happen. We are both stubborn bunches.
The fact is those two groups are really the minority fighting over the middle of the road majority. Take the time to reach out to those who may not understand your love of shooting and urge to take care of yourself. Doing that will do more for everybody's RKBA then a buying a lifetime membership in the NRA.
Give people a chance, most of them will surprise you. My God, I cannot believe the cynic in me just said that but every once in while it is true.
So that it is written so shall it be done.
January 9, 2003, 10:34 AM
Yes, I have and I will again. My Coronado Leather jacket helps too!
January 9, 2003, 10:40 AM
I have to agree with the majority of the answers given. Concealed means concealed and it's no ones business as to whether I carry or not. If I were specifically asked not to carry into their home, I would respect their wishes however that would be the last time I visited. Personal safety is too important an issue to be compromised.
GOD MADE MAN, SAM COLT MADE THEM EQUAL.
January 9, 2003, 11:17 AM
I have and will continue to also wear clothes and shoes without knowing the express feelings of the homeowner towards the use of such items in his own house. If they asked me to disarm in a polite manner I would most likely reciprocate their politeness. A firearm is not essential to my well-being, its just the best enhancement to my abilities available. If they became rude about it, I would most likely leave.
January 9, 2003, 11:39 AM
No, but I wouldn't go there anyway. They might as well have said no clothes allowed.
Probably wouldn't be friends with those in the first scenario either.
Unless they have the state required sign posted at the front door, it's not a crime.
January 9, 2003, 11:57 AM
I guess I'm with the "what they don't know, ..." crowd. My friends are aware of my belief in personal protection (and the provision of safety for my family). Other social functions call for the appropriate weapon, concealed properly. In either case, this is a non-issue. My friends probably assume I'm carrying at all times and any others don't know. If someone asked me not to carry in their home, I would show respect and comply w/ their wishes. This, of course, means I would leave and would politely decline further invitations. I would not argue but would look for an appropriate time to discuss the issue and explain my beliefs. However, the homeowner is "king of the castle" and deserves the right to decide what is acceptable in their home.
January 9, 2003, 12:35 PM
Here at THR (as at TFL) there is an awful lot of spouting about the primacy of property rights. How delightfully amusing to see so many on this thread who are fully prepared to disregard said rights. My home is my castle. If I ask you to refrain from smoking, disarm, not use profanity or blaspheme, not wear a fur coat, wear a studded leather bustier, make sure you hit the toilet when you vomit, or otherwise conform to what I have decided are the rules in my house, then I expect you to do so or you are from that very moment no longer welcome. I will, in fact, eject you from the premises if I find you are so rude as to violate my hospitality by disregarding my household rules.. In reality, except for the smoking and the bustier, I wouldn't require any of the above from you, but the principle is the same. Don't like the king's rules? Stay in your castle, then, where you make the rules.
January 9, 2003, 12:47 PM
I do it all the time on duty. :neener:
I do not associate with anti-gun people off duty, so that is not an issue.
However, I don't care what their warped personal beliefs are, I will have my sidearm with me. :D
January 9, 2003, 01:07 PM
Unless told (asked?) not to, I would.
An old friend, now deceased, remarried after a few years as a widower. His new bride moved into his home, and the first time I visited them and lit a cigarette, she said, "Please, you mustn't smoke in here."
That ripped it. I said, "Oh, I'm sorry", went outside, got into my car and drove home.
I continued to associate socially with him, and the wife was occasionally along, but it was never the same, and I was never in their house again, even when invited.
I am not comfortable in the presence of those who seek to prescribe what's best for me, or those who would arbitrarily substitute their pleasure, comfort or convenience for mine.
Oh, yes, the issue was concealed carry, wasn't it?
edited for flippin' typos @ 1-9, 10:09AM
January 9, 2003, 01:25 PM
Here at THR (as at TFL) there is an awful lot of spouting about the primacy of property rights. How delightfully amusing to see so many on this thread who are fully prepared to disregard said rights.
I wear pink underwear. They do not belong to you, but to me.
If I am in your house, I will be wearing the personal property which is my pink underwear, on the personal property which is my body.
When I enter your home, my personal property may be surrounded by your property, but my body and the items upon my body remain my property anyway. They do not become your property just because they are contained within your property.
When I enter your home, I will not automatically remove my pink underwear unless you specifically give me permission to wear them -- not at all! I will wear them, unless you request that I remove them.
And even so, unless I am married to you, the answer is no. I'll depart the premises rather than comply.
When you disarm your subjects you offend them by showing that either from cowardliness or lack of faith, you distrust them; and either conclusion will induce them to hate you. -- Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince
January 9, 2003, 01:31 PM
I'll depart the premises rather than comply.
If you are unwilling to adhere to my rules in my house, then I will speed you to the property line, good lady. If I ask you to disarm and you do not, and then by some chance I discover that you are strapped, you are not only unwelcome, you are also no longer a friend. In point of fact, I do not require my visitors to disarm, but what rules I have in my house are non-negotiable. If you can't honor your host's wishes in his home, then stay away altogether rather than dishonor yourself still further by practicing deceit.
January 9, 2003, 01:43 PM
If I ask you to disarm and you do not, ....
Please read my post again. Did I say I would remain on your property after you asked me to remove my personal effects?
There just isn't any pleasing some people. The trick is to stop trying. -- Joel Rosenberg
January 9, 2003, 03:06 PM
I would keep it hidden in the car.
January 9, 2003, 03:42 PM
I generally don't carry into people's homes. I leave it in the car, locked. I might amend that policy, if it was a very rough neighborhood. I take an element of risk when I go into restaurants, courthouses, schools, etc. without a weapon and to date I haven't had to regret it. It would take a seriously traumatic experience for me to change this risk acceptance. On the subject of antis as friends, I don't know of but a few who might be borderline. I really don't have a lot of truly RKBA friends either. As surprising as it may seem, I don't have a lot of friends. I have not cultivated many friends (as described by a previous poster) over the last few years...work, family, etc. I'm a serious minority here and on the late TFL because I don't have any type of litmus test on friendship with the exception of rapists, pedophiles, etc. definitely would NOT be on my friends list. I don't begrudge any of you your own preferences nor do I think that you are wrong, that's just me.
January 9, 2003, 05:01 PM
Golgo-13: "...conform to what I have decided are the rules in my house, then I expect you to do so or you are from that very moment no longer welcome."
That seems fair enough to me. But, if you objected to someone carrying but didn't say so, would that apply.
And what's wrong with a studded leather bustier? Depending upon the wearer, I wouldn't mind seeing one in my home. ;)
January 9, 2003, 05:11 PM
And what's wrong with a studded leather bustier? Depending upon the wearer, I wouldn't mind seeing one in my home
Go back and re-read my post. I said I might require you to wear one. Well, not you personally, but you get the idea.
January 9, 2003, 05:28 PM
As to the legal issue, unless your jurisdiction has passed an law making it a crime, the only possible legal consequences I can see are tresspass if you are asked to leave and don't, or some kind of tort based on emotional distress.
The tricky part there is proving causation and damages. So, unless you carry, are clumsy enough to be seen carrying, the sight sends them into an epileptic fit or gives them a nasty rash, and you knew, or should have known, that they would get the rash from seeing your gun, you are probably legally in there clear.
However, you have been very inconsiderate of their feelings and wishes, and you have violated the Golden Rule. I'm a big fan of the Golden Rule.
January 9, 2003, 05:33 PM
Here at THR (as at TFL) there is an awful lot of spouting about the primacy of property rights. How delightfully amusing to see so many on this thread who are fully prepared to disregard said rights. My home is my castle.
I do not see the contradiction you are suggesting. Quite the opposite. I see the matter of carrying a handgun on someone else's property to be perfectly consistent with the primacy of property rights. The main reason someone would be carrying, after all, is to protect their personal property, namely, themselves. Being allowed to protect your own property is key to the primacy of property rights.
The Libertarian principle, as I understand it, is that people have the right to do with their own property whatever they want so long as it does not significantly affect another person's property.
Wherever I go, I am my own property. I do not suddenly belong to someone else simply because I walk onto their land. The same thing goes for whatever I bring with me. My car is still my car even when it is being driven on someone else's road.
I may be standing in a house that someone else is king over, but I am still king over myself and my property which I brought with me, and I can do with it whatever I want (It's mine) so long as it doesn't significantly affect their property.
If I pull out a cigarette and start to smoke, I am interfering with their property (since I can not keep the smoke to myself) and so I do not just have an automatic right to smoke just because the cigarettes are mine. Likewise, If I pee in their toilet, I'm affecting their property (messes up the toilet, fills the septic, consumes water) and so I don't even have an automatic right to pee in their bathroom.
However, a gun that is concealed, and properly and safely holstered upon my own person and under my control at all times does not affect the other person's property even though it is within their house.
If they want to kick me off their property, so be it. My presence must necessarily affect their property and so I don't have an automatic right to be there. But, following this Libertarian principle at least, they do not have the right to tell me I can not carry my gun to defend my own property.
January 10, 2003, 02:33 AM
An interesting question. Just got back from visiting friends we had not seen in a long time. They are to a degree good people but seriously left wing as far as politics go. As a courtesy, we did not carry inside their domicile and did not bother to remind them that since firearms are not allowed that they are totally liable for our defense should something untoward happen. So I quess my answer would have to be yes or no, depending on the circumstances. When we would visit the better half's cousin at public housing, we packed every time. It was not a good neighborhood and it did used to upset her cousin when she would ask if we were armed and we would tell her that we were.
On an unrelated to the topic note, I have noticed that both seriously right and left wing people are both blaming the 9-11-01 attacks on (drum roll, please) the Bush administration! The aforementioned friends believe it was done by the CIA and the right wing persons I know think it was done by the KGB.
January 10, 2003, 09:59 AM
I'll carry anywhere I please and can legally do so. If in someone's residence and they don't like it, they can kindly ask me to leave and I will do so without anger or regret.
January 10, 2003, 12:13 PM
January 10, 2003, 03:58 PM
Went to my wife's uncle's family gathering and dinner a few years ago and had my 1911 in a fanny pack. My wife's cousin's husband, who is a red neck born again 15 times type, was trying to pick a fight all day making fun of my sissy fanny pack. The uncle knew what I had as I showed it to him before was really trying hard not to split a gut over the whole deal. Uncle told him later what I had the fanny pack for and to this day he is very goody two shoes around me, even if I don't have it with me. If they don't like it they can just tell me to leave......chris3
January 10, 2003, 10:56 PM
No. because I dont go there and they dont come here. I dont really know people that dont know fire arms.
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