Big boys .458 SOCOM Monster vs the Beowulf


PDA






wacki
August 6, 2007, 12:41 AM
I was impressed with the .50 cal beowulf which can shoot a


325 grain bullet at 1950 feet per second
400 grain bullet at 1800 feet per second

http://www.gunblast.com/Alex_Overwatch.htm
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1719/mvc004fag8.jpg



But apparently the .458 SOCOM Monster will launch 300 grain bullets at over 2100 fps and 500 grain bullets over 1350 fps.
http://www.gunblast.com/Alex_Overwatch.htm

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/6256/458loadscomparesmtj6.jpg

Didn't realize there was something that could trump the Beowulf by 100 extra grains.

If you enjoyed reading about "Big boys .458 SOCOM Monster vs the Beowulf" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
GunTech
August 6, 2007, 01:14 AM
I like 600gn VLDs in 458 SOCOM. They're subsonic, and make for a great suppressed round. Of course they are too long for an AR mag, but they do great in a turnbolt.

wacki
August 6, 2007, 01:31 AM
I like 600gn VLDs in 458 SOCOM. They're subsonic, and make for a great suppressed round. Of course they are too long for an AR mag, but they do great in a turnbolt.

I have no idea what that is. I could guess, but I've never seen one.

PercyShelley
August 6, 2007, 01:45 AM
You've no idea what a turnbolt is? Sign of the times and the dominance of EBRs I suppose.

I jest of course. By turnbolt, GunTech means a bolt action rifle.

wacki
August 6, 2007, 01:52 AM
Heh I have a bolt action Savage 10FP but I've never heard it called a turnbolt. I assumed it was some form bullet feeder kind of like a wheel gun.

Tony Williams
August 6, 2007, 03:54 AM
There is (or was) also the .499 LWR. There's an article on my website ('More Punch for the AR-15') comparing the three, and this is a photo from it:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/AR-15W.jpg
From left to right: 5.56x45, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, .499 LWR

There's also an article on the Teppo Jutsu range of cartridges, and this is the pic from it. The .500 Phantom is intended for AR-10 class rifles rather than AR-15:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/TeppoJutsuW.jpg
From left to right: .30 HRT (110 grain Hornady V-Max); .338 Spectre 300 grain Sierra Hollow Point Boat Tail Match King) and 300 grain HAWK Round Nose; .458 SOCOM 300 grain Barnes X Spitzer, 400 grain Barnes Round Nose Solid and 600 grain Barnes Original; .500 Phantom - 168 grain Sierra HPBTMK (saboted), 700 grain HAWK and 750 grain Hornady A-Max.

rdaines
August 6, 2007, 08:47 AM
I kind of like the .338 Spectre, http://www.teppojutsu.com/338.htm

Seems more like a pistol round rather than an intermediate between the 5.56 and the 7.62. I could be wrong at first reading....

MASTEROFMALICE
August 7, 2007, 10:45 AM
I have a question about those velocities. On Alexander Arms' website they were showing velocity readings for a 24" barrel, which should trump up the numbers a lot.

Does anyone have real-world, chronographed readings of both from 16" barrels?

jefnvk
August 8, 2007, 05:46 PM
You know, the .458 has always intrigued me. Who makes uppers for it, and what is the availability of reloading supplies?

trueblue1776
August 8, 2007, 06:21 PM
Is Leitner Weise dead? I still see their uppers occasionally and they are still expensive.

brentn
August 8, 2007, 06:22 PM
Rock river arms is the only company I know of that makes uppers, there may be a few others.

Ammo is done by cor-bon, again thats the only supplier I am familiar with.

Oleg Volk
August 8, 2007, 06:31 PM
Straight cases might be easier to reload, point to Beowolf.

K.L.O.sako
August 8, 2007, 07:46 PM
don't forget the new .450 bushmaster.

Wanta B
December 4, 2008, 04:30 PM
I was poking around and ran across this thread.I've had a come and go again fancey for an upper like these in a big o'l thumper round.

So,here goes...

1)how does the 458 SOCOM have more energy than the 50 Beowolf when both have roughly the same case body diameter but the 50 has better case volume?

2)How is it that an AR 30rnd mag only holds 10 458s but 12 50s ?

3)How does recoil in an AR compare to say a Marlin 1895 GG 45-70?

I have to say those numbers are quite impressive compared to .45-70,altho' in modern loading I'd say it still wins,wich leads me to my next question...

4)How do those ARs hold up in these calibers?


That 30 HRT looks interesting to me...

Double Naught Spy
December 4, 2008, 05:24 PM
3) About comparable - the AR15 advantages are in being semi auto and higher capacities.
4) Apparently just fine.

Wanta B
December 4, 2008, 05:33 PM
Excellent,thank you.

interlock
December 4, 2008, 11:19 PM
Guys,
What are these rounds all about? they look like fun but do they have a real application?

interlock

dmazur
December 4, 2008, 11:39 PM
One opinion of what they're all about was Cooper, who I believe dreamed of something called a "Thumper", which was basically a large caliber AR15 type rifle.

The way I heard the story, someone made up and delivered something like this to Col. Cooper before he died -

.450 Bushmaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.450_Bushmaster)

Apparently it was a .45 Pro by LeMAG, and this is supposed to be similar to the .450 Bushmaster, which is now sold by Bushmaster (ammo by Hornady.)

There is probably more to the Thumper story than this, and this is but one reason for the above calibers. I've also read of US Coast Guard interest, specops interest, etc.

All of the above are, basically, how to get more "punch" out of the AR-15 platform. Which is, an existing semi-auto rifle with fairly good maintenance support for trigger group, magazines, etc.

Does it do something fundamentally new? Probably not. You could duplicate the performance in a variety of existing calibers. Does it do something new in an AR-15? Yes.

interlock
December 4, 2008, 11:42 PM
I can see why the special ops guys would like it. It would be nearly silent from a moderated rifle (subsonic loads) unlikely to over penetrate too much and be very very deadly at limited ranges.

interlock

Kind of Blued
December 5, 2008, 01:44 AM
Very cool pictures & thread. I had a couple of questions come up:

What kind of suppressor would one use with something like the .50 Beowulf or .450 Bushmaster? I'd imagine it might have to be custom made, unless someone knows of something. Obviously, it wouldn't need to be as voluminous as a .50 BMG can, and wouldn't need to be able to withstand as much pressure. I'd guess a .30 caliber can with a bigger hole would work.

Which of these is the most popular and has the most readily-available reloading components? My guess is .450 Bushmaster, but I could be wrong.

P.S. The .500 Phantom looks awesome. :D

TIMC
December 5, 2008, 01:47 AM
what are these all about?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys,
What are these rounds all about? they look like fun but do they have a real application?

interlock

They may have no real purpose but they will smack the pee out of a pig, that's what I use my Beowulf for.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/Hunting%20pics/Beowulfpignovember08pic1.jpg?t=1228455990

Kind of Blued
December 5, 2008, 02:05 AM
'Zactly. ;)

Double Naught Spy
December 5, 2008, 08:36 AM
The Beowulf, supposedly, was developed by Alexander Arms for a heavier duty embassy gun that would not look like a heavy duty gun but more like the standard AR15. So with ballistics enough like a .45-70, it would be good for things like short range (less than 100 yards) vehicle penetration/stopping that the 5.56 isn't know for being very good at, but in a similar package.

Like the .45-70, the Beowulf and other similar calibers are very good hunting rounds.

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 12:03 PM
If your in Brown Bear country 10-15 rounds of 45-70+p+ out of a semi-auto with box mags would be rather nice...not necesary but nice non the less!

That is one SWEET pig gun!! Now I reaqly want another upper!!:D

I am still curious,how can these rifles deal so well with such hard hitting cartridges?I mean they were built around a puny little hyper-volocity .22...

Wanta B

SHvar
December 5, 2008, 01:02 PM
Because the rifle was designed for serious punishment, and has proven itself worldwide for over 40 years in military service around the world. The ar platform has proven to do great with many big powerful rounds that were designed for use with single shot rifles over the years.

Float Pilot
December 5, 2008, 01:30 PM
Besides hunting and /or protection from dangerous game, such as for use by a guide who already has way too much to pack, there is another use in the anti personel role.

Something along the lines of a 300 to 500 grain projectile at anywhere from 1,300 fps to 2,000 fps is much better in stopping (instant incap) at very close range. There is no need for bullet fragmentation, tumbling, or any other magic stuff. Just slam power. Those of use who hunt see this in operation when using the proper firearm. The standard M-4 carbine does not deliver this with standard 5.56mm ammo. It only seems powerful enough to those whom have never used a potent cartridge.

PLUS: A big heavy projectile at 45-70 plus-P velocities would be more likey to incapacitate opponents wearing body armor (suicide vest) than the lightweight 5.56mm round at close range. (Particularly the 62 grain M855 round which is overstabilized by a 1 in 7 twist)

It may not totally penetrate the kevlar and /or truma plates, but the testing we conducted showed that large heavy bullets still caused deep tissue damage somewhat similar to being hit with a sledge hammer. They may live through it, but they are out of the fight immediately.

Wanta B
December 5, 2008, 01:43 PM
Simply because a rifle was built to stand up to punishment does not mean that it will hold up to cartridges that it was NOT built around,ie. 1911 in 10mm=BROKEN! I have several ARs and still I would go AK over M4 in combat given the choice if reliability is the main concern...quite often the case.Perhaps I should clearify to some degree as to my question of how they hold up and why.

These are hard hitting cartridges with,as I understand it,have comparable recoil to the .45-70.So do they need heavier recoil springs?Buffers?How many rounds is the expected life of an AR with one of these uppers?What are the cartridge pressures?

I would like to know because I actualy like the platform and think one of these uppers would be GREAT to have but want to know some background on them first.

As far as the OP goes I realy would like to know,given a rather breif look around,how the 458 seems to outpreform the 50 when it looks like the 50 has more case volume and being the same case diameter it would seem that one could fit just as many rounds in a magazine.

Johnnypi45
December 5, 2008, 03:53 PM
Out of curiousty, would any of these uppers be capable of use on a DPMS 308 lower?...

I'm new to the whole AR platform, and just recently purchased the Remington R-25 in 308. These are built by DPMS but stamped by remington for their own resale. i really like the idea of these rounds, and am just curious about this as an option. Thanks!

Petey

dmazur
December 5, 2008, 04:04 PM
From another site -

The cartridge will function from standard AR-10 lowers and magazines, and the 20-round OEM magazine will accept at least 6 of the Phantom cartridges. The DPMS LR-308 rifle can also be modified to accept this cartridge. By using the standard magnum rim size, the OEM bolts designed for use with the WSM or RSAUM line of cartridges can be used without further modification. Existing upper assemblies can be converted to .500 Phantom by rebarreling and adjusting the gas system.

Here's the link -

500 Phantom (http://www.feistyrooster.com/500phantom/index.html)

Snowshoe Moose
March 21, 2009, 03:58 AM
Hi, Float Pilot,

I'm about 80 miles up the road from you. I'd like to chat with you sometime about your ideas in rifles and ammo.

JWarren
March 21, 2009, 09:25 AM
The cartridge will function from standard AR-10 lowers and magazines, and the 20-round OEM magazine will accept at least 6 of the Phantom cartridges. The DPMS LR-308 rifle can also be modified to accept this cartridge. By using the standard magnum rim size, the OEM bolts designed for use with the WSM or RSAUM line of cartridges can be used without further modification. Existing upper assemblies can be converted to .500 Phantom by rebarreling and adjusting the gas system.




You're pretty much out of luck with the .500 Phantom. Teppo Jutsu has pretty much abandoned production of the cartridge.

I looked into it for a spare LR-308 upper receiver that I have laying around.

Now, I am considering a supressed SRB out of it. :)



-- John

Float Pilot
March 21, 2009, 06:26 PM
Snowshoe Moose

Any time
dragonfly@alaska.net
www.floatplanealaska.com

msiley
March 21, 2009, 07:03 PM
Man! Going from a tiny .22 caliber bullet to a monster .45-70
like bullet. Does anyone think this will take off militarily?

Why not just go with a .308 and be done? You have range and power.
With the .450 you have power but lack range, and vice versa with
5.56. Not that 5.56 lacks power but compared to a .308 it does.

I guess it's always good to have choices. I just find the
extremes here amusing.

Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
March 21, 2009, 07:36 PM
These things are sweet. But why do the ARs get to have all the fun, I want a milled AK in .50 beowulf.:D Since the AK is primarily a short range carbine, it would make sense to chamber it in something obscenely huge and short range.
I suppose us AK folks will have to stick to our saiga shotties with slugs for now:(

kirklandkie
March 21, 2009, 08:34 PM
cap'n jack, there are companies that specialize in building/rebuilding rifles for people
with enough cash you could get a one of a kind .50 beowulf AK

-kirk

p.s. my beowulf upper has been on order for 8 weeks and they still don't know when it'll arrive to my door :(

Javelin
March 21, 2009, 08:47 PM
What is the mag capacity? 10?

HorseSoldier
March 22, 2009, 12:34 AM
Man! Going from a tiny .22 caliber bullet to a monster .45-70
like bullet. Does anyone think this will take off militarily?

It hasn't yet and it never will. For military applications it's a vanishingly remote niche product, and didn't even attract any real attention in white side SOF as far as I ever heard before ETS'ing.

I have heard online accounts of some contractors using them in Iraq due to their better (in theory) ability to stop an approaching car, but I'm fairly certain a good solid burst from a 240 or PK or similar would do just as nicely without near the logistical fuss for military use.

Why not just go with a .308 and be done? You have range and power.

You give up 50% of your basic load of ammunition to get range that 99% of troops will never use and more recoil to go with more power, making your weapon slow and clumsy handling at the ranges where real killing occurs.

The merits of a heavier cartridge than 5.56mm are debatable, though with some very valid points, but .308 wasn't the right answer 50 years ago for a general service cartridge, and has not gotten more correct with the passage of time.

Tony Williams
March 22, 2009, 05:14 AM
The merits of a heavier cartridge than 5.56mm are debatable, though with some very valid points, but .308 wasn't the right answer 50 years ago for a general service cartridge, and has not gotten more correct with the passage of time.
I agree that the 7.62mm is too big, too heavy and recoils too much to be ideal, but British troops in Helmand are finding themselves ouranged by Taleban equipped with PKMs and Dragunovs in 7.62x54R. In that open countryside, engagements of up to 900m are not uncommon, at which distance 5.56mm is useless. They are also finding the 5.56mm to be very limited in barrier penetration and unreliable in putting a man down.

The ideal is certainly a compromise round somewhere in between the 5.56mm and 7.62mm, probably with ballistics similar to the 6.5mm Grendel. But I can't see that happening until the next generation of plastic cased or caseless ammo comes along, which won't be for a long time. So to solve the immediate problem, it makes sense to me for the UK to acquire some modern rifles in 7.62x51 (probably the HK 417, which is already in service with special forces) to replace the disliked L86A2 LSW in the fire team.

GaGunGuy
January 12, 2010, 01:36 AM
These are both interesting rounds, but I think the SOCOM is certainly the better round. For one it was designed to run at very similar pressures to the .223 to maintain the timing and pressure sensitivity of the AR-15 platform. This is why you don't need to change anything on the weapon other than the complete upper, where as with the Beowolf or the Bushmaster you have to modify the rifle such as new buffer springs, different mags, or a new bolt, etc.
Because of this the SOCOM retains a lot of the reliability and longevity of the original platform because you are operating at roughly the same pressures and cycle timing of the .223. The factory rounds made by CorBon, Reeds, and SBR even have the same burn rate (approximately) as the standard .223 loads.
But its knock down is far better. The 300 grain loads actually preform better than the 300 grain 458 Win Mag loads.

jeepmor
January 12, 2010, 02:13 AM
And I thought 10mm brass was expensive.

Interesting thread, but not for me. If I go with something like this, it'll probably be a 300 Whisper or the like. Suppose the HRT qualifies. Funky looking brass with that 223 rim kept for function.

Jaws
January 12, 2010, 02:29 AM
I agree that the 7.62mm is too big, too heavy and recoils too much to be ideal, but British troops in Helmand are finding themselves ouranged by Taleban equipped with PKMs and Dragunovs in 7.62x54R. In that open countryside, engagements of up to 900m are not uncommon, at which distance 5.56mm is useless. They are also finding the 5.56mm to be very limited in barrier penetration and unreliable in putting a man down.

The ideal is certainly a compromise round somewhere in between the 5.56mm and 7.62mm, probably with ballistics similar to the 6.5mm Grendel. But I can't see that happening until the next generation of plastic cased or caseless ammo comes along, which won't be for a long time. So to solve the immediate problem, it makes sense to me for the UK to acquire some modern rifles in 7.62x51 (probably the HK 417, which is already in service with special forces) to replace the disliked L86A2 LSW in the fire team.

__________________




The 7x46mm Murray would work nice. With this new multicaliber rifles coming out, it wouldn't be that big a deal to adopt.

tommyintx
January 12, 2010, 02:51 AM
flint needs commenting here. he has the .458 socom, and i want to set one up like his. a VERY sweet setup, i must say.

Girodin
January 12, 2010, 02:54 AM
cap'n jack, there are companies that specialize in building/rebuilding rifles for people with enough cash you could get a one of a kind .50 beowulf AK


You might try contacting Tony Rumore at Tromix. I do not know if he is selling them but there was talk he was looking into making big bore AKs. He would likely be making them in .458 Socom. If it weren't for Tony we probably wouldn't have the .458 ARs either. He is the guy that blazed a lot of trails in big bore ARs. Anything made by Tony will be a fantastic product.

I really want a .458 socom despite the fact I have no real purpose for it.

jmorris
January 12, 2010, 09:04 AM
The factory rounds made by CorBon, Reeds, and SBR even have the same burn rate (approximately) as the standard .223 loads.

I’m not one to wake the dead (thread is from 2007) but will correct an error. The 458 socom uses powders with burn rates that you would use for magnum pistol rounds not the .223. For example on the chard below H110 (great powder for the 458) is 117 out of 267 and 748 (great for .223) is 162. Pressure and burn rate are not the same thing at all and the 458 case doesn’t have enough volume to utilize the slower burning rifle powders.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp

Interesting thread, but not for me. If I go with something like this, it'll probably be a 300 Whisper or the like. Suppose the HRT qualifies. Funky looking brass with that 223 rim kept for function.

But you can't get a 600 grain bullet for the .300 Whisper and if your going subsonic the only way to get energy back is with a big hunk of lead.

TonyRumore
January 12, 2010, 12:26 PM
Yeah, I made the first .458 Socom back in February of 2001. That picture the OP posted of the round in a magazine, was taken the evening that the gun was finished. The original gun is in the background, Tromix S/N TR-0004 which is currently being used by Corbon to test their ammo. I also built two AK's in .458 SOCOM as well as one Mini-14 and currently have plans to build a Sig 556 into a .458. Back in the late 90's I built AR's in 50AE, 440 Corbon, 44 Rem Mag, 357 Automag, and 44 Automag. I also built one AR in .475 Tremor which is the Socom case necked up to .475. The only big bores that I have built recently were one 444 Marlin AK, and one 375/444 AK.

Here's a pic of 10,000 Starline cases that I had to buy personally, to get the SOCOM off the ground.

Second pic is the only suppressed Tromix .458 SOCOM I ever made.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l246/TonyRumore/Rifles/Brass.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l246/TonyRumore/Rifles/Suppressor2.jpg

Wanta B
January 12, 2010, 01:13 PM
This must have been in the wind or something...

"The 300 grain loads actually preform better than the 300 grain 458 Win Mag loads." :scrutiny:Man that sounds an aweful lot like a thread I was chatting in...several of us were comparing the .45-70's performance compared to the bigger .458s.:scrutiny: Smaller cartridge having more penetration than the larger faster ones.:confused: I have seen it first hand but still need to do more testing to confirm totaly.:scrutiny:

So no one has any idea how the .458 SOCOM fits more rounds into a mag than the 500 Beowolf..?

Now as far as performance goes I would think that they would have much the same relationship to one another as .338Fed compared to handloaded .358Win. The smaller diameter has better down range energy and better distance where as the larger one has better close range punch...If they both have roughly the same energy.

In my current point of interest I carry a slightly modified Marlin 1895 .45-70 as back-up and can easily see these uppers,al beit rather limited,having significant merit.

TonyRumore
January 12, 2010, 01:28 PM
Well, in your post sir....you stated that the 50 Beowulf holds 12 and the Socom 10ea. Now you are claiming the other way around.

Whatever.......the .458 SOCOM will hold 10rds in a standard 30rd GI mag. I have seen some mags where you can get 11 rounds in. I seriously doubt you can get 12 Beowulf rounds in a standard GI mag.

Tony

Wanta B
January 12, 2010, 01:42 PM
I agree with Horsesoldier that the debate continues over the 5.56 being adequate and that more often than not the 7.62 NATO is not the best choice for general use .I disagree with the slow and clumsy however,as modern weapons and old ones that have been "modernized" are quite fast and nimble:cool::).Slower,perhaps:scrutiny:...not my experience tho',at least where on target and effective neutralization is concerned.Just running a range coarse,sometimes but not in the feild.Again just my experience.
As to carry capacity there is no doubt but in 20+ years I have always come back with ammunition to spare.But perhaps that is simple luck.;)

Wanta B
January 12, 2010, 01:45 PM
Did I mix that up?:o My apologizes...I will have to recheck. I do know that it confused me because they have roughly the same case diameter. I have no personal experience with these two cartridges but do have a great deal of interest so I am attempting to gather infirmation on them.Just trying to confirm that or not.

TonyRumore
January 12, 2010, 01:53 PM
I just checked the Alexander Arms website, and they list a 10rd magazine that looks like a standard 30 rounder. Whoever quoted you a 12rd capacity must have been talking up something other than a GI mag.

A 40rd magazine holds 14-15 rounds, so that 12 number seems a bit odd. Maybe with a cut down follower and spring, you could get 12 in some standard GI mags........maybe.

Tony

Wanta B
January 12, 2010, 01:54 PM
Quite right I did switch those two.Oops!:o:)

Wanta B
January 12, 2010, 03:49 PM
Tony,
I would be VERY interested in seeing how that SIG 556 turns out! Sounds sweet!:D Are you planning uppers or just a once done one off?

Currently leaning toward the .458 SOCOM...

TonyRumore
January 12, 2010, 04:31 PM
The Sig 556 platform looks very promising. It doesn't have the manufacturing hurdles that I ran into with the AK and Mini-14 conversions. Specifically, the 556 gas block and front sight/gas assembly can accomodate a barrel up to .850" in diameter whereas the AK and Mini (at the time) cannot. Its not a big deal to make a few hundred custom gas blocks and front sight towers.....but it's a major problem when you only need a handful to get the product line launched with such low demand.

The barrel on the 556 simply screws into the receiver and the bolt locks up in the receiver, not into a barrel extension. If Sig had used a barrel extension, I seriously doubt they would ever sell you one. The barrel root also has no extractor cut in it, further simplifying the project. There are no flats cut in the barrel (like an AK) or any other goofy stuff.....just a 100% lathe operation.

The only draw back to the Sig, is cheap bolt availablility like an AR. So, your existing bolt would need to be modified and preclude switching it back to .223 at a later date.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp

LiquidTension
January 12, 2010, 06:00 PM
I would totally do that ^ with my 556 if it weren't prohibitively expensive.

Wanta B
January 12, 2010, 06:19 PM
Well,I am still VERY interested.

Please keep us up to date if it is not much trouble. If it does look like a go please count me in. I would be more than willing to divert funds from doing an AR to modifying a 556 if at all possible. :)

Ranb
January 12, 2010, 06:56 PM
I have a 458 socom upper. I chose it over the 50 caliber uppers available for one reason; it uses rifle bullets instead of pistol bullets. The higher BC of the +400 grain 45 cal makes a difference past 100 yards. I use a cut down spring and empty buffer to enable the light 535 grain loads to cycle properly when using WC820 powder.

I use 405 grain jacketed and 535 grain cast bullets loaded to 1050 fps. I made a silencer on an ATF form 1. The silencer is 1.75x12 inches and extends 8 inches past the muzzle. Unfortunately is it the loudest suppressed rifle in my collection due to the large bore required for the 45 cal bullets and the normal AR-15 action noise. I think it is hearing safe without plugs as long as I shoot it out in the open and not under weather protection. It is still a hoot to shoot though, especially metal targets at 200 yards.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/458socom-1.jpg

Ranb

Wanta B
January 12, 2010, 07:21 PM
Very nice Ranb.

I agree that in this particular application I think the .458's SD and the fact that it uses rifle bullets makes it the better choice,at least for me,at this time.Extending range past that of the .50 to my mind.The .458 has plenty of meplet for crushing damage too...Tho' saying you have a .50cal. would be fun.:D I simply see more diversity with the .458 SOCOM as opposed to the .50Beowolf and the .450Bushmaster.Cool as they are if I had all three:evil:,I would more than likely grab the .458 SOCOM more often than not.

What say others?

Welding Rod
January 13, 2010, 12:18 AM
Regarding the original post and 458 SOCOM ammo, I think Corbon only claims 1900 FPS for 300 grain ammo and I know they claim 1600 FPS for 405 grain.

cz85cmbt
January 13, 2010, 01:33 AM
I don't think there will be room in the market long term for all three calibers. It will be interesting to see who survives. Th .450 has the huge bushmaster company producing rifles and hornady producing ammo which is two big advantages in the market place although it is probably the worst in so far as ready supply of boolits to reloaders. The 50 beowulf has a bigger diameter and as far as I know the lowest working pressures which are easier on the shoulder but alexander arms has to make everything for it here your bullet choices are pretty solid but a little expensive, that is any bullets made for the .50 ae. The .458 has the great advantage of being .458 which is ideal since all cartridges are trying to replicate .45-70 ballistics and .458 is the .45-70's true caliber. Unfortunately little corbon makes the only expensive ammo and the great rra making uppers. I personally would not buy one a .45-70 marlin is all the .45-70 I want and it will always be around, but the heavy ar cartridges are interesting and you have to wonder which one will pull away.

Girodin
January 13, 2010, 02:22 AM
I would do bad things for that suppressed Tromix .458 SOCOM AR (almost as bad as what I would do for the suppressed S12 he made, I truly LUST after that thing).

The big bore sig sounds very interesting and really cool. I'll repeat for those that may not be familar with Mr. Rumore's work that anything he makes will be a fantastic product second to none. He has a unimpeachable reputation for not only building terrific products but for taking care of his customers. One really cannot go wrong buying a Tromix. I have to keep my eye on the prize and keep saving my pennies so if Tromix ever reopens its waiting list I can get the gun I want more than all others, a Tromix SBS.

Mr. Rumore I seam to recall that I read something you wrote discussing the advantages of the .458 vis a vis the beowolf but I don't remeber where and I'm hoping that I'm not remebering incorrectly that it was you. I (and likely others) would really appreciate if you could share your thoughts on the various big bore AR calibers and or the platforms available for them.

Welding Rod
January 13, 2010, 10:11 PM
I had two 450 BMs and sold them both, and now have a 458 SOCOM.

The 450 BM is a very nice cartridge. However the exterior dimensions are very poorly matched to the AR magazine. It is just barely larger in diameter than the gap between the lips of an AR mag. This causes the mag lips to flex and spread outward, different amounts depending on how many cartridges are currently in the magzine. No round rest at the same elevation and feed angle in the magazine as the previous round.

I was quite surprised that such poor engineering (if there was any) would make it into a production firearm. I would never consider relying on such a gun for defense use.

I would not consider a 450 BM again unless a purpose built magazine was available that would hold each round in a consistant orientation.

The 458 SOCOM fits the AR mag much better as the bottle neck case has an appropriate taper to match the mag curve, and the cartridge diameter gets it substantially under the feedlips without the flexing and spreading problem.

Of course the down side is ammo / brass in very expensive.

Candiru
January 14, 2010, 12:49 AM
Tony, can you tell us more about the .458 SOCOM Mini-14 you made? Was it based around the Mini-30 for the bolt face?

TonyRumore
January 14, 2010, 12:21 PM
I don't know if I ever posted any comparisons between the three big bores......probably not.

The bottom line is that all three will get the job done.

The Beowulf of course has a larger diameter bullet, but with that comes less sectional density (the bullet is short and fat) so your penetration capability will be less than that of the smaller diameter .458 SOCOM running a longer bullet. Back in 2001 there weren't many 50 caliber bullets to choose from (50AE only) but now with the 500 S&W there is a better selection so the bullet availability argument is pretty much a thing of the past.

The Beuwolf also suffers from a severely rebated rim that can cause some problems. One is bolt over ride, whereas the bolt misses the rim of the cartridge when using some magazines. The other is a complete case collapse around the case head when the pressure is driven up. If you run the pressure up, the case will fold back over the case head. The same problem occurs with the 501 Thunder Sabre case. Neither of these issues show up with the SOCOM. The other problem is the Beuwolf's nose will strike the front leading edge of the GI magazine when feeding out and again does not present a problem with the SOCOM's bottle neck case.

The Bushmaster is really not a great idea in the AR, since the case diameter is smaller, it doesn't want to feed well, single stacked in a GI magazine. You have two choices when feeding through a magazine. You can either single stack them or you can double stack them. You can't stack-and-a-half them.......very well. Also, pushing pistol bullets to rifle velocity usually does not work very well either. You would really need to shoot specially built .451" rifle bullets for best performance. Of which there are very few of.

When Marty ter Weeme and I were first discussing the big bore project, we were discussing simply using a lengthened 50AE case necked to .458. We considered using both the 7.62x39 rim and the .308 size rim, but went with the .308 to prevent possible bolt over ride issues, case collapse issues, and allow it to be easily adapted to bolt action rifles. All of the initial cases that came from Starline were straight walled, so we already had a 50 SOCOM if you will. I considered getting a reamer made for the 50, but the .458 just seemed like a lot better idea, so the 50 version was scrapped. I still have several thousand 50 SOCOM cases left over, so it could still be done without much trouble.

Bottom line though.....if you use the right bullets, magazines, and keep the pressures sane, you won't have any problems with either of the three rounds. In my opinion (whatever that is worth) the .458 SOCOM is "Technically" the best design of the three, but in actual application, they are all about the same.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp

TonyRumore
January 14, 2010, 12:27 PM
Here's a pic of the mini-14 converted to .458 SOCOM. The biggest problem was trying to open up the gas block to handle the larger diameter barrel. I had no good way to do it and ended up just grinding it out by hand. It looked like crap when I was done, but you couldn't see it. Then I had no front sight for the gun. I made one that was at the end of the barrel, then made another one that went on the gas block.....both looked like crap. Then I got pissed off and just stuck the one you see there on the gun and quit. I had spent about 3 days on a project that should have only taken three hours and when I was done, the gun looked all cobbled up. That's why I never post this pic. It looks like some hack did it in his garage.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l246/TonyRumore/Rifles/Mega14A.jpg

Wanta B
January 14, 2010, 01:15 PM
Given all the possible reliability issues between them and the projectile sellection...personaly I see the clear winner being the .458 without doubt.

Thank you Tony for the SIG556 .458 SOCOM worm burrowing threw my mind now!!:p;):D

TonyRumore
January 14, 2010, 01:42 PM
I finished building the Sig 556 receiver holding fixture last night, and just pulled the .223 barrel off of it. I should have the new .458 barrel machined and installed by the end of the day.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp

Wanta B
January 14, 2010, 01:51 PM
:what: OH MAN!! Hard to contain the anticipation of seeing it!!

If you enjoyed reading about "Big boys .458 SOCOM Monster vs the Beowulf" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!