WA state ccw shoots assailant


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hapuna
August 5, 2007, 11:59 PM
Don't know if you heard of this but initially they were holding the ccw that tried to stop a guy from stabbing his wife.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003822913_webstab05.html

Woman fatally stabbed by her ex; he's fatally shot by a bystander

By Karen Gaudette and Michael J. Berens

Seattle Times staff reporters

A Seattle mother of four was fatally stabbed early today despite a court protection order against her knife-wielding ex-husband.

The 33-year-old victim was stabbed nearly two dozen times while attending a birthday party about 1 a.m. at the Veterans of Foreign Wars hall in the 9100 block of Martin Luther King Jr. Way South.

The 39-year-old assailant burst into the hall, grabbed the victim and slashed her with a large knife, witnesses told police. The weapon was recovered at the scene.

A 32-year-old Kent man who was at the party pulled a hand gun and shot the suspect who later died at Harborview Medial Center.

Police spokeswoman Renee Witt said the party guest had a concealed-weapons permit. She said he likely won't face charges since he acted to prevent further harm.

Another partygoer who tried to save the victim suffered minor cuts. He drove himself to Virginia Mason Medical Center and was later released.

Although identities had not been formally released this evening, court records indicate that the victim and 39-year-old assailant obtained a court separation March 30 of this year.

Court records also show that the attacker had a previous record of violence including multiple counts of assault in April this year.

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Nomad101bc
August 6, 2007, 12:17 AM
Thank god the looney has been put out of commision and won't do any further harm. What a terrible story, at a kids birthday no less, this serves as solid proof just having a law doesnt mean the bad guys will obey it!

camslam
August 6, 2007, 12:21 AM
Someone used a knife of all things to harm another individual? No way.

When do we start reading the editorials stating we need to ban knives?
When do we see in depth reporting and stories on knife violence?

Keep your eyes open... :)

pdowg881
August 6, 2007, 12:27 AM
Too bad he couldn't stop the guy before he killed the woman. Must be a scary situation.

CNYCacher
August 6, 2007, 12:43 AM
Article does not say it was a kid's birthday party. I naturally think of kids when I hear of birthday parties, but bear in mind no kids are mentioned and the incident occurred at 1AM at a VFW.

The article makes it seem like he slashed at her and was then shot, but remember that he stabbed her around 20 times and even fought off another man who tried to stop him.

It is sad that he could not have been stopped sooner.

yhtomit
August 6, 2007, 01:54 AM
Someone used a knife of all things to harm another individual? No way.

When do we start reading the editorials stating we need to ban knives?
When do we see in depth reporting and stories on knife violence?

Keep your eyes open...

Yep.

As has been discussed here at length, in the UK that's already the case -- knives are the inanimate-object-villains du jour there ...

Things like that make me happier than ever to be in the U.S.

And it sounds like the world might be better off because of the actions of that CCW holder; death is tragic -- most people, even violent ones, have *some* possible good to offer -- but I'm glad that the CCW holder's actions meant this killer didn't offer further violence.

timothy

Old Dog
August 6, 2007, 02:04 AM
Hmm. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that if this party was being held in the portion of the VFW Hall that served liquor, under a WA state liquor license, which would be regulated by the state Liquor Control Board, the shooter would have been in violation of RCW 9.41.300 by carrying his handgun, even with a valid CPL. Interesting.

Snake Eyes
August 6, 2007, 02:13 AM
the shooter would have been in violation of RCW 9.41.300
Old Dog, I think VFW's are "private clubs" by definition, and I'm not sure if that RCW applies.....I know the 'No Smoking' RCW doesn't apply at the Legion Halls or VFW's.

Further, according to the KIRO 7 Evening News: The shooter was a DJ at the party, not an attendee. Possibly there is an exemption for employees of a business?

Additional grist for the mill from the teevee news: The stabbing victim had an "order of protection" (restraining order) out on the stabber. Once again, we see how well those work.

siskiyou3
August 6, 2007, 02:14 AM
Anyone else catch the komo 4 newscast on this? It was laughable how it was portrayed, the anchor raised his volume while he exclaimed "a man with a GUN at the party stopped the attacker"
No mention of him having a permit.

Ford Prefect
August 6, 2007, 03:42 AM
Quote:
the shooter would have been in violation of RCW 9.41.300


Old Dog, I think VFW's are "private clubs" by definition, and I'm not sure if that RCW applies.....I know the 'No Smoking' RCW doesn't apply at the Legion Halls or VFW's.

Further, according to the KIRO 7 Evening News: The shooter was a DJ at the party, not an attendee. Possibly there is an exemption for employees of a business?
.
Snake eyes:
I think your incorrect on both points. There is no exception for private clubs for CCW or smoking. No CPL in a licenced liquior area and no smoking anywhere there are employee's in WA. No exceptions for VFW/ALH

It's nice to see the cops didn't go after the DJ. There is an exception for carrying a pistol without a licence at your PERMANENT place of buisness, which would not count here for the DJ either.

chris in va
August 6, 2007, 04:07 AM
The guy is still a hero in my mind. Maybe he acted too late, but at least had the nerve to do SOMETHING about the situation. Too many people stand around and watch these days.:fire:

online2mch
August 6, 2007, 09:27 AM
This KOMO story refers to the police saying the gun was "properly registered" I am Washington CPL holder. Can other Washingtonians clue me in on this gun registry or is the article flat wrong.

http://www.komotv.com/news/8922682.html

fletcher
August 6, 2007, 10:26 AM
Very sad incident, but it proves/confirms some things. First, the restraining order did NOTHING for her protection, and unfortunately, neither did the CCW on another person. But, the assailant was shot immediately after by the permit holder (instant response when compared to police response times). Strongly suggests that had she possessed a weapon, this might have ended differently.

El Tejon
August 6, 2007, 10:37 AM
Remember, citizen, only the police have the training to deal with these situations. You watch helplessly and be a good witness!

Ford Prefect
August 6, 2007, 10:43 AM
This KOMO story refers to the police saying the gun was "properly registered" I am Washington CPL holder. Can other Washingtonians clue me in on this gun registry or is the article flat wrong.


Media hype, but WA state does actually keep a record of every hangun sale from a dealer.

I get to use the brady campaign as a source:




"RECORD KEEPING
May police maintain gun sale records? Partial

Washington: State law authorizes the department of licensing to keep a record of every handgun purchase application, but the state does not keep any records on the sale of rifles or shotguns or on the "private" sale of handguns by individuals. The handgun sale records are maintained and made available to police for use in gun tracing and related criminal investigations. But the state does not automatically compare past gun sale records with recent criminal activity to identify and disarm felons and others who bought guns legally, but later committed a crime or otherwise became ineligible to keep possession of their firearms.

REGISTRATION
Are all guns registered with law enforcement? No

No state requirement that gun owners register their firearms. Police do not know how many guns are in the state or where they are. The lack of registration data makes it more difficult for police to trace guns used in crime, identify illegal gun traffickers or hold gun owners accountable for their weapons. There is no state system to automatically identify and disarm felons and other prohibited people who bought guns legally in the past, but later committed a crime or otherwise became ineligible to keep possession of their firearms."

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=wa

MillCreek
August 6, 2007, 11:38 AM
In a followup article this morning, no charges are expected to be filed against the shooter.

Old Dog
August 6, 2007, 11:40 AM
Which is a good thing.

As for the media reporting that "the firearm was properly registered," all that means -- in Washington state -- is that as far as law enforcement is concerned, the gun was not a stolen piece and the person using the gun was eligible (in terms of the law) to own (and/or carry) the gun.

Prince Yamato
August 6, 2007, 01:25 PM
Let's see,

restraining orders are worthless= check

Defenseless people are victims = check

CCW saves lives= check


sounds about right to me.

Zoogster
August 6, 2007, 02:05 PM
This KOMO story refers to the police saying the gun was "properly registered" I am Washington CPL holder. Can other Washingtonians clue me in on this gun registry or is the article flat wrong.

They are just encouraging the impression that self defense is only okay when done with government approved tools and methods, individualy approved for use beforehand.

Technicaly a "permit" to have an item is registration in of itself. You are registering to possess an item in additional places. Places previously okay to have a firearm without a CCW decrease, individual locations allowing people to carry with a CCW decrease. Eventualy the rights of someone with a CCW will be similar to the rights of someone without one a couple decades ago. The main difference is you will have to be "registered" to have those rights.
When your CCW requires you to list the weapons or types you have or will carry, then you are "registering" your possession of those weapons with the state for permission to use them.

Furthermore as someone said, WA already is allowed to keep records, and that means a database exists of all legaly purchased handguns from dealers to reference.

The rules for CCW are following in the same footsteps as unpermited, unregistered, carry a century ago.
First they decided courthouses and such places were off limits. Then government buildings. Places that serve alcohol or while intoxicated. Some private businesses ban carry. Schools and events sponsored by schools or educational institutions etc Sound familiar?
Same things cowboys were facing with legal carry a century ago, except they called them taverns and saloons, not bars and restaurants. The methodology is the same, and the restrictions will eventualy be similar. The big difference is back then thier arms were not registered. Now you have to be registered to excercise the same freedoms which are being increasingly controlled and limited in the same way as before.

Eventualy most places are covered. After all most events in many peoples lives will either be school events with thier children (covered) like a sports event, or an adult event that serves some alcohol and other refreshments in a social setting, like a company event, a wedding at a place with a bar, a restaurant that serves, etc. Eventualy you will be registered as an evil gun owner with the government that does not like its citizens armed in general, so that you can possess a firearm in less than half of the locations you find yourself around other people in life. In addition those normal gun owners that previously enjoyed pretty much those same rights will have even less as an incentive to register, erm I mean "apply" for a CCW permit.

That is just what happens when something becomes more mainstream. First you try to make it mainstream to gain acceptance so it is allowed and protected. Then you succeed and suddenly since it IS mainstream, more people think it needs additional "common sense" measures to add additional safety. So instead of being one of the unnoticed few freely excercising a right few know about, you find yourself subject to the rules made for the lowest common denominator. It is a catch 22. If you did not make people aware and feel it is important, then the right could be taken with little objection. By making people feel it is important, more do it and so more restrictions are applied to govern larger numbers of people.
This applies for many things in life, not just firearms.

Old Dog
August 6, 2007, 02:46 PM
Zoogster statesThey are just encouraging the impression that self defense is only okay when done with government approved tools and methods, individualy approved for use beforehand. I disagree here, Zoogster. You are ascribing motive to the reporter's story, where there is none; it's simply the usual media ignorance -- most of these young reporters believe (probably based on watching too many TV shows based in LA or NYC) there exists gun registration in this state until someone patiently informs them otherwise.
When your CCW requires you to list the weapons or types you have or will carry, then you are "registering" your possession of those weapons with the state for permission to use them.
Well, WA doesn't require this, and also has no training requirements, a short waiting period and reasonably cheap fees for our CPLs. No, it's not a perfect system (obviously, the Vermont/Alaska model is best) ... but, as demonstrated by this news story (and a previous incident in downtown Seattle), CPL holders are normally given the benefit of the doubt by local law enforcement (and not treated like criminals or wannabe Rambos as recent stories from other states have displayed).
Furthermore as someone said, WA already is allowed to keep records, and that means a database exists of all legaly purchased handguns from dealers to reference.Ah, yes, but this state is also excellent for permitting private sales, and we've been able to successfully fight off any attempts by the gun control advocates to change this.
Eventualy you will be registered as an evil gun owner with the government that does not like its citizens armed in general, so that you can possess a firearm in less than half of the locations you find yourself around other people in life.
This dismal view doesn't really square with the way things are up here. Granted, it always seems like an uphill struggle having to repeatedly counter attempts to further restrict our rights in this state, but for some of us, we see light at the end of the tunnel -- and it ain't that train coming.

Zoogster
August 6, 2007, 02:59 PM
Well they don't call Seattle "San Francisco North" for nothing. You just have a lot of sensible rural people on your side still. The population demographics are continuing to shift though.
CA once had the same demographics, now the cities control the legislation.

We are seeing addition restrictions placed on concealed carry across the nation in places that allow it.

You will know it is going down hill when they need to edit or add legislation to create new levels of CCW for LEOs, retired LEOs, politicians and those that previously enjoy CCW before it was open to the masses. When you start to see exemption legislation for certain people, or former people, or "class 1,2, A,B" CCW variations to compensate you will understand what I mean.
I cannot forsee the terminolgy or how it will be applied, but when restrictions designed for the masses start to infringe on the privelidged individuals ability to carry, legislation will compensate. When that compensation exists, CCW will not mean much.

hapuna
August 6, 2007, 03:30 PM
Well they don't call Seattle "San Francisco North" for nothing. You just have a lot of sensible rural people on your side still. The population demographics are continuing to shift though.

Don't know where you've been but the shift has already occurred. Though there may be many ways in which Seattle may resemble SF the gun issue is not one of them. Believe me the ccw and other gun laws are supported throughout the state and that includes many Dems. :)

Leanwolf
August 6, 2007, 05:30 PM
CAMSLAM - "When do we start reading the editorials stating we need to ban knives?"

Don't worry, CamSlam, the left wing, bleeding heart, self defense hating liberals who control most newspapers will get around to it one of these days.

At the moment, they have bigger fish to fry, that being their years long crusade to have Big Brother and Big Nanny confiscate ALL our firearms.

Knives will be next.

L.W.

Dave Workman
August 6, 2007, 05:31 PM
Old Dog wrote:
Hmm. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that if this party was being held in the portion of the VFW Hall that served liquor, under a WA state liquor license, which would be regulated by the state Liquor Control Board, the shooter would have been in violation of RCW 9.41.300 by carrying his handgun, even with a valid CPL. Interesting.

It being a private party, according to a cop I spoke with, this may depend upon what was in the banquet permit. If the place was open to minors for this party, the shooter may be good to go. But we're still early in the investigation. It could go south on this guy in a hurry.

Henry Bowman
August 6, 2007, 09:19 PM
Hmm. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that if this party was being held in the portion of the VFW Hall that served liquor, under a WA state liquor license, which would be regulated by the state Liquor Control Board, the shooter would have been in violation of RCW 9.41.300 by carrying his handgun, even with a valid CPL. Interesting.What Dave just said. Only if the place was the type of establishment that prohibits all persons under 21.

Ford Prefect
August 7, 2007, 03:19 AM
Henry Bowman ???

I had just read that name in the book in my lap when I saw your post.
"Unintended Consequences".
LOL. I doubt it's coincidence.
I'm still at the begining. Reading about the nail log.

;)

Henry Bowman
August 7, 2007, 08:52 AM
It's not my real name. It's a screen name that says something about me. Hope you enjoy the rest of the book. ;)

ArfinGreebly
August 7, 2007, 02:50 PM
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