MG questions


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eastwood44mag
August 6, 2007, 03:36 PM
I know civilians cannot have a post 86 machine gun. I'm not arguing that. I'm not sure how the ban affects SOT personnel, though (some sellers demand certification letters, etc.). Can anyone put the whole mess into layman's terms?

Secondly, if a person gets their SOT paperwork done, and manages to get a MG, are there restrictions relating to its range use (i.e. How do you go about renting a MG at the outdoor range?)?

Thirdly, if someone does manage to get a pre-86, and for the sake of argument, let's say an AR-15 in .223, then decides to rechamber it in say 9x19, is that legal? Does it require re-registration and more tax payments? Is it no longer eligible for civilian posession? How does that work?

Thanks, folks.

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kingpin008
August 6, 2007, 05:00 PM
Civilians CAN have post 86 machine guns. It's called "getting a tax stamp".

If you live in a state that allows them, all you have to do is apply for the stamp, fill out a form 4, and wait the allotted time for it to go through, and that's pretty much it. If the chief LEO doesn't sign off on it, you can form an LLC to get around that.

After that, make sure to keep the paperwork in a super-safe place, and find a range in your state/area that allows full-auto fire and you're good.

As far as rechambering it goes, I'm not 100% positive but I'm pretty sure that'd count as a whole different gun. Full-auto guns and things like DIAS's are registered, so any sort of modification to them (including rechambering) would be nigh impossible due to all the legal loopholes needed to keep track of it.

Trebor
August 6, 2007, 05:04 PM
Don't become a SOT unless you really intend to make it a business. You aren't allowed to be a SOT just to enhance your own personal collection and the ATF takes that VERY seriously.

For a private citizen who isn't actively in the business of selling MG's to LEO's or military, stick with the pre-May '86 transferables. They are expensive, but so are legal fees if the ATF tooks a hard look at your "business" and decides your abusing the privilege of being a SOT.

Trebor
August 6, 2007, 05:07 PM
Civilians CAN have post 86 machine guns. It's called "getting a tax stamp".

If you live in a state that allows them, all you have to do is apply for the stamp, fill out a form 4, and wait the allotted time for it to go through, and that's pretty much it. If the chief LEO doesn't sign off on it, you can form an LLC to get around that.

No, private citizens who are not "Special Occupational Taxpayers" (i.e. MG dealers or manufacturers) can NOT own any Machine Gun manufactured after May of 1986. Any MG manufactured after that date (May 19 I believe?) can ONLY be transfered to the police, military, or a licensed SOT manufacturer or dealer as a "Dealer sample." They can't be transfered on a Form 4.

That's why MG's are so expensive. The supply for private citizens is limited to the pre-May '86 guns and prices are going up as demand increases but the supply is fixed.

Mannix
August 6, 2007, 05:08 PM
I believe the lower receiver on an AR is considered the "firearm". So assuming THAT is what it registered, you should be able to put on any upper receiver and barrel you want, without it being considered a different firearm, as far as the law is concerned.

DoubleTapDrew
August 6, 2007, 05:40 PM
To the best of my understanding:

I know civilians cannot have a post 86 machine gun. I'm not arguing that. I'm not sure how the ban affects SOT personnel, though (some sellers demand certification letters, etc.). Can anyone put the whole mess into layman's terms?
Find a gun, buy it, fill out form 4, gather required stuff (cleo signature, prints, photos, or go trust/llc route), send with $200 check, wait for approval, go pick up gun from your receiving NFA dealer.

Secondly, if a person gets their SOT paperwork done, and manages to get a MG, are there restrictions relating to its range use (i.e. How do you go about renting a MG at the outdoor range?)?
Probably varies with the range. The one close to me has a specific range for full auto separate from the 100yd/200yd/pistol ranges. You need to contact the ATF if you are going to cross state lines I believe.

Thirdly, if someone does manage to get a pre-86, and for the sake of argument, let's say an AR-15 in .223, then decides to rechamber it in say 9x19, is that legal? Does it require re-registration and more tax payments? Is it no longer eligible for civilian posession? How does that work?
No it's not a separate registration. Usually on the form 4 for your example people will list different calibers since the lower receiver is the MG and uppers are easy to change. I've seen examples where people list caliber as .22lr-.50bmg and barrel lengths from 7"-24" so all their bases are covered (however some have been kicked back with ranges and told to list all the specific calibers or lengths desired instead of a range of them). Also, a MG is exempt from barrel length laws so you can have any length barrel you want without having to pay a separate SBR tax on, say, a 10.5" upper.

eastwood44mag
August 6, 2007, 06:00 PM
Let me rephrase my questions:

If a SOT dealer/manufacturer wants to buy a post 86, is there any other req't than just sending his license, filling out the Form (#3, is it?), and waiting on the approval? How does the certification letter fit into this?

If a SOT opens a range, and wants to rent MG's on the range, since most people can can't afford to own, is there any additional work as far as zoning, licensing, or the rest?

DoubleTapDrew
August 6, 2007, 08:05 PM
Ahh. I'm pretty sure SOTs are excempt from most transfer taxes, prints, photos and signatures. Check out this page under the "tax exemptions" section and it has a bunch of info on SOTs.
Info (http://http://members.aol.com/zeusnaris/rules.html)
I'm not sure about any special provisions for a range.

Outlaws
August 6, 2007, 08:21 PM
Civilians CAN have post 86 machine guns. It's called "getting a tax stamp".

If you live in a state that allows them, all you have to do is apply for the stamp, fill out a form 4, and wait the allotted time for it to go through, and that's pretty much it. If the chief LEO doesn't sign off on it, you can form an LLC to get around that.

After that, make sure to keep the paperwork in a super-safe place, and find a range in your state/area that allows full-auto fire and you're good.

As far as rechambering it goes, I'm not 100% positive but I'm pretty sure that'd count as a whole different gun. Full-auto guns and things like DIAS's are registered, so any sort of modification to them (including rechambering) would be nigh impossible due to all the legal loopholes needed to keep track of it.
I don't think a single part of this post is true.

Trebor
August 6, 2007, 09:33 PM
If a SOT dealer/manufacturer wants to buy a post 86, is there any other req't than just sending his license, filling out the Form (#3, is it?), and waiting on the approval? How does the certification letter fit into this?

My understanding is that a SOT has to get a "request letter" from a LEO agency or the military requesting a demonstration of a particular model of firearm before he can then acquire any Post-86 "Dealer Sample" version of that firearm.

I'm not a SOT so I may be wrong on this, but that is my understanding.

My other point still holds true. If you aren't in the *Business* of actively selling MG's to LEO's or the military, don't get a SOT just to get Post-May Dealer Samples for your own collection. That is very much frowned upon.

eastwood44mag
August 6, 2007, 09:40 PM
Trebor-

I have no intention of getting a SOT to enhance my collection.

ilcylic
August 6, 2007, 09:59 PM
Outlaws: No, the part about needing to keep the paperwork in a super-safe place is right. ATF has been known to lose paperwork, and then it's on your head to prove you're allowed to have that MG.

kingpin008
August 6, 2007, 10:45 PM
I'll admit, I was dead wrong about a few things, thanks to rushing through the OP's post. But I AM right in saying that you'd better have a copy of the paperwork in a safe place, should you need to prove you're legal to own it.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, most ranges that allow full-auto would probably want to see the paperwork as well, so they know they're not letting some yahoo with a modified (or stolen) gun into their range, thus opening themselves up to tons of liability.

So yea, I was wrong, Outlaw - but not completely. Thanks for the insight though.

GunTech
August 7, 2007, 02:44 AM
Been to many MG shoots with my subgun. I've never once been asked for my paperwork.

BTW, just because it's pre '86 doesn't mean you can own it. You need a fully transferrable pre '86 gun. There are pre 86 dealer samples that are not transferrable.

Prices have gone way up. A transferrable m16 used to go (pre ban) for around $600. Now you will typiocally pay around $9-10K. Early Thompsons (1928) routinely go for $40,000, and evenm a late prodiction M1A1 can still commant around $10K. The price jumps have really made MG collecting the province of the well to do.

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