[SuperNaut]

It seems to me that the Activism forum now covers the re-stated purpose of the L&P quite well. I think L&P should remain closed forever.

An unpopular stance maybe, but IMHO L&P serves to divide rather than unite.

[skinnyguy]

It is quite possible that it had outlived it's intended purpose, perhaps even from it's inception, which is well before I became a member here.

I say that because there are two things that will cause more disagreements than anything else, politics and religion.

[bender]

I liked L&P. I miss it.

I expect arguing & bickering on internet forums, doesn't bother me. People that are so easily offended should stay out of web discussion boards.

Just my opinion. I'm OK with whatever the moderators here decide.

[SuperNaut]

I expect arguing & bickering on internet forums, doesn't bother me.

Me either.

People that are so easily offended should stay out of web discussion boards.

I suppose I expected the arguing and bickering to be about guns.

I've got a thick head and thick skin I guess...

[Hawk]

There's at least one gap between activism and L&P: Parker and SCOTUS.

It pops up in general but I'm uncertain that's the intent of the admins.




I was uncertain about offering unsolicited advice, but since someone else has broken the ice, I am a member of another board that had to shut down "Legal and Political" for similar reasons. I'm not certain any of the proposed solutions "over there" would be applicable here, but FWIW:

A single thread was left open for member input on the closure and ways in which the section might return. Some participants appeared to take an ownership role upon reopening which seemed to have an overall positive impact. The thread did, of course, have more than the usual slings and arrows regarding the closure. Presumably, leaving this one open would serve if such is desired.

I should point out that the board in question accepts self-bans. Anyone with an "I’m outa here, the mods are outa control" remark will, in fact, be outa there. There were also timed self-bans, evidently from those with insufficient will power to simply stay away – I never understood this but I digress.

When Political was reopened, it was broken into two forums. The portion believed to attract the more contentious was invisible to the non-registered. This seemed to reduce certain of the drive-by postings by the casual lurker. I have no conjecture to offer on how THR might do something similar as I'm unaware of a "less contentious" area of Legal and Political. Perhaps the whole thing be made invisible to passers by?

The forum software (I believe it’s the same as used by THR) was set so that PMs showed up in windows. I, for one, can go weeks without noticing the bolded unread PM count in the upper right. I’d conjecture some folks might look to be ignoring PMs when they simply weren’t noticed.

Nothing in the above should be construed as my volunteering for mod duty.
:)

[Larry Ashcraft]

Just a note, Hawk. The pop up window for PMs is available here too. Open your User CP and click on "Edit Options".

[Hawk]

Thanks - I didn't notice that before. Change made.

As a side benefit, the thread now has a legitimate tie to "Technical Support".

[Lone_Gunman]

The right to keep and bear arms is only one of our many civil rights that are being gradually encroached upon. All of these rights are inter-related, and if one is jeopardized, they all are jeopardized. If there is no forum to discuss civil rights in general here, then damage to the 2nd Amendment can be done by damage to other liberties.

For example, if Congress chooses to pass a law that closed down internet forums, how will we communicate about infringements on the 2nd amendment? Since this law would not be directly about the RKBA, we could not discuss it here?

[Geno]

My father always told me, "You never discuss politics, religion or sex in public. The only thing more personal than these is your personal relationship with God."

I agree on some of his point, but not all. There is a time for political discussion, but there must be self-control and respect for others' views.

Doc2005

[Art Eatman]

No, it didn't outlive its purpose. Too many low-road, off-topic, foolish comments were being posted. A relatively few folks--but a few too many--who harm the website's intended purpose: Persuading the fence-straddlers and neutrals--who do indeed vote--that gun owners are NOT knuckle-dragging Neanderthals.

So, a little re-think about that forum.

Art

[scout26]

As I've stated elsewhere:

I don't think the problem was the forum or the rules. The problem was that some people didn't want to follow the rules. Sorry if you don't like the rules, but it's Oleg's house and he gets to make the rules. As one of my daughter's shirts reads "Build A Bridge And Get Over It." I've read and participated in long threads about civil rights that had ZERO gun related content as long as they stayed on topic and polite. Even when they started to veer off-course and/or then there'd be a "Oh, yeah, well you're a poophead !!" post the mods would remind everyone to avoid the personal attacks and keep it High Road. I distinctly recall several Kelo decision threads and even a one on Terry Schiavo lasted a lot longer then I thought, simply because people were able to remain polite and civil while debating issues that once again had ZERO gun content but civil rights implications. I've found the mods to be very tolerant of somewhat slightly off-topic threads as long as the threads remained civil and the discussion thoughtful, reasoned and polite.

The last couple of months I witnessed a huge number of "My Candidate is better then yours" threads that really contributed nothing to either discussing 2A, RKBA nor civil rights discussions, but were simply a means "getting the candidate's name/face out there and keep it out there" and it appeared to me that their staff/workers/volunteers were using THR as an adjunct to their campaigns.

There also was a lot of Cop Bashing/CCW-use of force bashing based upon media reports. For those threads I followed these rules of thumb:
1. I wasn't there.
2. To quote Mark Twain "If you don't read the papers, you are uninformed. If you read the papers, you are misinformed." See point #1, as the reporter wasn't there either.
3. I'm also not getting all the testimony/evidence as I'm not sitting in the jury box. And even then all the evidence is not presented/available.
4. Real Life(tm) ain't CSI. If it was then there wouldn't be a CSI on TV, where every crime gets solved in 30 minutes (or it's free !!) and The TRUTH always comes out.
So unless it's something truely beyond the pale, I'll wait for a jury to decide, and not speculate based a story that was edited down to fit the space between the JCPenney bra ad and the ad for the bankruptcy attorney, then cut and pasted on the intraweb.

People can disagree passionately about various subjects and issues, but still be polite and civil. I believe that's all Oleg (and mods) ever asked of us.

[coyote_jr]

My guess is, the staff doesn't want the antis to use anything from here that will hurt our cause in 2008. We all know the antis read this stuff.

[ZMP_CTR]

What did I miss? Why did the legal and political section get shut down?

[silliman89]

There was some discussion about it here, but not much information.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=8136.0

[ZMP_CTR]

I really enjoy reading and posting on THR. I don't have the full story from both sides, but I hope that everything levels out and we can get back to firearms and not pointing fingers.

[RealGun]

I have had some experience moderating elsewhere, and I am sympathetic to the mods here. If you start banning people or deleting posts, sometimes just editing them, everyone gets uncomfortable, and the forum dies. What you do is close whole threads, making it less personal. When too many threads beg to be closed, the whole forum is out of control, not what you want to to be, so you close the whole forum and announce a "time out" for everyone.

1) rethink what "The High Road" means and pretends to be. If you need a snarky environment to satisfy, some other forum would serve better.

2) consider what the owners might be proud to host and whether you want to be a part of that.

3) focus more on discussing issues rather than "fixing" other people. The first challenge is to get the facts right.

4) have some familiarity with logical fallacies and try to avoid them. Examples are the stawman, red herring, and ad hominem. Refer to Logic & Fallacies (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html)

5) discuss ideas, not personalities

6) be civil, which might call upon more patience. Write more as if face to face and fully accountable for what you say and how you say it.

7) know your subject. A question is better than some baseless pronouncement. Take advantage of the forum rather than abuse it. Learn rather than obfuscate. Political views are too often based upon very little information and often then of questionable credibility.

8) stay on the subject at hand. A thread on its fourth page should appear to be discussing the same topic as on the first page, all comments relevant to the root post. Making any and every thread a place to mention Ron Paul, for example, is abusing the forum. A thread does not need a bucket of ice water or bomb throwing from us just because it isn't what we want to discuss.

9) avoid pejoratives. They are not high road. Your mastery of pejorative language like "demonrats" and "repugnicans" and "*******" etc. will not impress.

10) The title itself, Legal & Political, is a problem, because only certain legal or political topics should be of interest to gun owners in particular and then best discussed on a gun forum. I would think a title like "threats to liberty", with the implication that a broad range of topics could ultimately prove very relevant to the RKBA, would better imply the purpose of the forum and what is appropriate to post on it. That title incorporates concern for the RKBA or any other civil liberty.

What is needed though is some test of how relevant a topic might be, not accepting any and all, very abstract connections to gun ownership or civil liberties in general, fabricating reasons ad hoc to justify a thread on virtually any topic. The mods would make the call, but it should be more clear what "on topic" means. If the same discussion is found all over the net and the news media, I don't think it belongs on a gun forum, unless a gun owner's perspective is being neglected and would materially change the perception of the issue.

Just some thoughts for starters. Others might add to the list as a group exercise.

[svtruth]

passionately, and correctly, that anti gun laws negatively affect the law abiding, yet a whole section of the forum is shut down because of the actions of a few.
Would it not be fairer, and less hypocritical, to discipline them?
For one, I miss the L&P. It was a source of much useful information.

[SolaScriptura139]

Would it not be fairer, and less hypocritical, to discipline them?


I don't see where you get that closing L & P is hypocritical. The threads in L & P were getting pretty ridiculous, and I for one (even though disappointed in the closure) respect the mods decision to close temporarily. Why is it so hard for people to discuss topics with respect and civility?

I've been a part of threads in L & P that discussed religion, and they stayed open for a long time because of how civil they were (and the fact that they pertained to gun ownership). I've seen, however, many threads on religion that were closed because there are invariably many who just wanna bash religious belief (ie., all the Muslim bashing threads).

I hope that L & P will be reopened soon, as there were a lot of good threads. Hopefully this time, the few won't ruin it for everyone.

My best advice is, think twice before you hit the submit button. You are posting online, which means no one can see your body language. You may post something in attempt to make a joke, but may come across someone else as an insult. Not everyone thinks the way you or I do, and we should try to careful in how we phrase things.

[Art Eatman]

svtruth, it looks like you skipped over some posts before yours.

Not trying to be mean or insulting: We've said we're trying to clean up a pigsty. By calling that effort "hypocritical", you immediately place yourself in with those who have created the L&P problems. You totally missed the point about why actions are being taken. Totally.

And I totally fail to understand the use of the word "hypocritical". We've not at all been in the condition of having approved one thing while doing the opposite.

Art

[SuperNaut]

I've thought about this on and off for the past couple of days and I honestly cannot see how the RKBA has anything to do with the following:

Race
Religion
Sex

While there are political aspects of RKBA that may peripherally touch upon the above, I'm pretty confident that I can have a meaningful RKBA conversation that doesn't mention any of the above. Besides there are thousands of other bbs' where you can shout from your soapbox.

As far as the upcoming election is concerned; unless you are discussing your candidate's RKBA stance, how can it possibly be on topic?

[Hawk]

I didn’t spend all that much time in "Legal and Political" but it's still missed – rather like having a molar extracted: you don't recall using it much but the hole where it used to be doesn't seem exactly right.

I'm not familiar with the forum software but I'd guess that deleting and editing individual posts has got to be more work than shutting down a thread with a remark as to why (even if obvious). Locked threads tend to drift off the bottom of the page pretty quickly, but while they're there they do offer insight into what won’t be tolerated.

IMHO, the existence of inflammatory posts in locked threads will not distress a fence-sitter. In fact, I'd guess that a thoughtful fence-sitter would sooner see how a drive-by posting by, say, a Stormfront member in a Pink Pistols thread is dealt with. A locked thread tells the uncommitted something of what our community won't tolerate; a deleted thread, naturally, says nothing.

I'm not at all sure that moderator overload was associated with "pruning and editing" in an attempt to salvage a thread in a downhill slide but if my surmise is anywhere near right, the forum won't be back if threads require individual massaging and life support.

The fact remains that one could say nearly anything without causing threadlock just by doing so in a "smile when you say that, pard" manner.

[SolaScriptura139]

Supernaut,

Religion does have to do with RKBA in many cases. One such example was a thread based on Christians and bearing arms. The question was raised about whether a Christian is allowed to bear arms. It was a great thread that was very civil and contained a lot of good information.

However, there were many threads that just bashed Islam, and there was one to my recollection titled something like "White Christians can be terrorists too." Clearly off-topic and meant to attack others.

Race and gender can have a lot to do when one might look at statistics of gun ownership based on race and gender. I have no hard data on this, but I'm willing to bet that white american males are the majority on gun ownership. And because a good-sized section of the democrats are black, that's an area we need to target for RKBA "evangelism" (sorry, I couldn't think of a better word).

However, I don't want to turn this thread into something else. I'm just saying that one can discuss these topics without being rude and uncivil. Unfortunately, we're paying the price for those who can't be mature enough to be civil.

[Hawk]

I've thought about this on and off for the past couple of days and I honestly cannot see how the RKBA has anything to do with the following:

Race
Religion
Sex


Well…

Race: It's hard for me to listen to both Clayton Cramer and Kenn Blanchard at a seminar and not be convinced we should be pointing out the racist origins of numerous gun control laws or, at a minimum, countering the alternate reality peddled by certain of the antis. I've actually met people that have bought into the NRA = KKK parallel universe and that should not go unchallenged.

Religion: Concede. Even what I see as non-controversial entries in the Bible or Talmud seem too provocative for many. Understandable given the personal nature of the topic.

Sex: I don’t know. The best and most effective 2nd amendment seminar I ever attended (the one with Cramer and Blanchard, in fact) was organized by someone who was bringing organizational and "fight for your rights" skills from the Pink Pistols. Some of his work is available at KABA (http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2519).

The roots of gun control laws are racist, RKBA is the opposite. When somebody inverts that picture, shouldn't we say something and if not in L&P where? Ditto the controller's charges of homophobia running rampant in the RKBA community – why not bring up the Pink Pistols? Oleg's had a nice poster in "general" that was drawing a fair amount of traffic and, unless I am very much mistaken, I think I heard the occasional creak of tolerance insinuating itself into unaccustomed corners. "Enemy of my enemy" and all that...

[SuperNaut]

SS I remember that thread, and yes, it was a good'un. BUT (everybody's got a big but:)) the connection to RKBA was pretty clear IMO.

I guess I'm saying that in order for these topics to be discussed, the connection to RKBA should be clear. I'm just as guilty as anyone for bringing up off-topic stuff, and I'm not saying it should stop: We are all human and I want to get to know people for more than just what guns they own. BUT I have a hard time seeing how some of the sexism, campaigning, racism, statism, etc. blah-blah, does anything other than divide us and hurt the RKBA.

I am guilty of sometimes wanting to win or be right at all costs, BUT I also recognize that it is a failing.

I agree that the exceptions you pointed out are exceptions for a good reason, BUT I still maintain that for the most part these topics are poison.

ETA: I just noticed that Hawk and I x-posted.

[Joe Gunns]

Now that L&P is closed I get more work done in the store. ;-) However, it was my second favorite forum and I look forward to its return.
James

[Phyphor]

You can read Coronach's take on the whole thing in the L&P forum, if you haven't already.

Long story short, some folks decided that putting their political views (and ad hominem attacks) before civil discussion was the way to go. Then there was the endless series of "This candidate sucks / rules" threads that recently took up so much space.

So, basically, it's shut down until they decide how best to redo it. From what I understand, Oleg wishes it to be more directly related to guns/civil rights, rather than a "any political topic fits" dumping ground like it was before.

[Mal H]

I would say Phyphor explained it in two paragraphs about as well as it could be explained.

[Correia]

Would it not be fairer, and less hypocritical, to discipline them?

You're making a pretty baseless assumption there, considering that while L&P is down, we've gone through and done a search for the worst offenders and put their heads on pikes.

Hey, but but roll with what you've got right? Baseless assumptions and calling other people hypocrites (even when you don't have a clue about the actual facts) had nothing to do with the state that L&P had fallen in to... :scrutiny:

[RNB65]

So far, I haven't missed it. Still wish we had an NFA forum. :(

[Euclidean]

Honestly, I sort of like the site better without it. The Activism Forum seems to really cover the most important purpose of L&P and gives me lots of letters to write, etc.

[MudCamper]

Honestly, I sort of like the site better without it.

Agreed. I actually stopped coming to THR in favor of a more friendly forum a month or 2 ago. When I did occasionally stop by, I only peeped into certain forums. L&P was the one I avoided most.

[deadin]

I agree with the two previous posters. I was getting real close to bailing out of THR (didn't want my name associated with what was going on in L&P).
Now it looks like maybe I will stay around a little longer and see how things turn out.

[pwrtool45]

Thank you. Nothing but good will come of this. I've never posted in L&P and only read enough to make my brain hurt, but the forum seemed like a ditch party in which too many people were encouraged to say things which they wouldn't otherwise say (especially in mixed company...) and voice opinions I'm not sure I wanted to know they had. Granted, it may be true that the latter isn't something best left to fester in silence, but I'd like at least one little corner on the web that isn't absolutely covered up with the type of stuff that was par for the course in that forum.

[SolaScriptura139]

I guess I'm saying that in order for these topics to be discussed, the connection to RKBA should be clear.

Agreed, 100%.


BUT I still maintain that for the most part these topics are poison.


It's sad and unfortunate that for the most part it is as you say.

[jaholder1971]

Sheesh.

I saw this nonsense years ago on Shooters.com - List owner didn't like the conversation on one board, started banning folks for cause. Pretty soon anyone who said anything the list owner or a mod didn't like was banned. 6 months later the entire site was gone.

Some list owners/mods never learn.

[jeepmor]

Censorship is baaahhhhhd.

Lack of civility is too. It's L&P, what did they expect?

[Fn-P9]

I miss the L&P. It adds some levity to the site. Some people say some funny things. I thought it had some good info also....oh well :neener:

[Michigander]

I am one of those guys who owns a few hunting rifles, doesn't shoot very often, but loved to read and post on L&P.

It's a difficult thing, in my estimation, to say that "all topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues" and then try to draw some squigly line around what constitutes "related to civil liberties issues."

Frankly, there is not much in politics today that is not related to "civil liberties isssues."

First off, every candidate elected has the potential to infringe on our civil liberties.

Second, income taxes, for example: I posted about Ed Brown the tax protester and had my thread closed. Later, someone else started a thread about it and it lasted for 30+ pages (IIRC). One Mod clearly understood "tax protesters" to be "off-topic" for THR. Another Mod thought it was on-topic and participated in the discussion for some time.

You see? Where is that squigly line?

What are "civil libertie issues" is the question I guess (aside from those who personally attack others or otherwise violate the Terms of Use of THR - for which I alway thought there were already remedies in place).

Obviously the right of the people to keep and bear arms without infringement is a core civil liberty. Then there is the rest of the Bill of Rights. Then there is other civil liberties not enumerated in the Constitution.

It is not easy, in fact impossible, to separate all the "civil liberties" one from another.

In any case, assuming some form of L&P remains, I would like to see something like a "three-strikes, you're out!" program.

Violate the simple rules:

1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues.
2.) Multiple user registrations are prohibited.
3.) As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't want to say it here.
4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
5.) We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say".Posts that are contrary to the above policies, or to the mission of The High Road, may be edited or deleted at our sole discretion. Membership may be revoked if such a step is deemed necessary by us. We're a private venture enabled by an all-volunteer staff. Please treat this venue as a polite discussion in a friend's home and respect the wishes of the hosts.

Once: PM warning.
Twice: PM warning.
Third Time: BANNED!

Otherwise, no matter what happens, eventually there will have be another mass "purging" of the membership. In the long run, mass purgings may be more detrimental to THR than banning a member here or there over time.

JMO.

[Lone_Gunman]

I like the "three strikes and your out" plan Michangander proposed.

Also, maybe posting in L&P cold be limited only to members who have posted a certain number of times in other forums? Like, maybe you need to have 200 posts in other forums before you could post in L&P. At least that would help keep trolls and hit-and-run posters from being able to start problems.

[deadin]

I like the "three strikes" and post count requirements. My only suggestion would be to also toss the "civil liberties" bit and keep the whole forum gun related only. If you want to argue (discuss) IRS issues, Freedom of speech, etc., take it to APS or somewhere similar.

[Matt King]

I posted about Ed Brown the tax protester and had my thread closed. Later, someone else started a thread about it and it lasted for 30+ pages (IIRC).

That was me.~ :o

Seriously, I really miss L&P. I thought that it was a good place to learn about issues affecting our rights, and debate with people who held a different point of view. It's true that you had your occasional troll or OT thread, but all in all; I though it was a great place to learn about people's views and debate people with opposing viewpoints. I always tries to attack the argument, not the poster. I think if more people followed that rule, as well as Michigander's three strikes rule; we could bring back L&P.

[BigG]

Good riddance. Have you noticed the level of signal to noise around THR has risen lately?

[jlbraun]

I'm OK with closing of L&P temporarily, because it became too much like a "General Discussion" forum. I'm glad that THR doesn't have one of those, because those tend to be dominated by right-wing groupthink on most gun sites. By keeping the discussion on guns only, gun-owning lefties like me can feel welcome, and THR is a stronger community for that.

[SolaScriptura139]

I like the idea of a post count requirement for L&P. But that does exclude a lot of people, what if you read a lot here but post little? And what if a new person has some really good information that he/she wants to post? And I bet you could find people with high post counts that aren't very civil.

Just some points to think about. :)

[Mal H]

Trust me, we're thinking about those very points and a whole lot more - have been for several months. I doubt anyone thinks the action on L&P took place on a whim from less than a week ago. The ideas have been stewing for many months, nay, years.


No need for two threads on the same topic, so I merged them.

[Correia]

Where is that squigly line?

That is one of the things we're defining. When it comes back, the line will be much more clearly defined. To avoid the squigly part...

And mass purge? Banning anybody we don't personally like? Give me a freaking break...

We banned about 20 of the most annoying, trite, obnoxious people on a board with 10,000 posters. Yep, sounds like a regular gulag in here. I don't know how you guys can handle living under our soviet style jackboots. :scrutiny:

Lack of civility is too. It's L&P, what did they expect? We set standards for a reason. When it comes back, it will different. It will have very specific mission, and very specific rules. Oleg expects civility and reasonable intelligent discourse. There are plenty of other places where people can go on the internet to treat each other like asses. It just ain't gonna fly here.

This isn't a seat of the pants decision. We've put a lot of deliberation into this.

As for the three strikes thing, we have a system in place that works quite a bit like that already. It wasn't enough. The overall tone was degrading and L&P wasn't helping our mission, it was hindering it.

So we're taking a break, and fixing it. Pretty simple.

[Carl N. Brown]

posted by hawk:
it's still missed – rather like having a molar extracted

I must say I miss Legal & Political; it is like having a molar
removed, I mean, it is hard to crunch fruit and nuts with
a missing molar.

Sure L&P got off topic of guns and civil liberties very often;
that is an unfortunate aspect of the internet where some
people feel they can post stuff anonymously that that they
would not say otherwise.

There are some topics on guns and civil liberties that do not
fit any other forum but L&P. It would be good if L&P could
come back more as a forum for civil discussion and less
like a Saturday night bar room brawl.

[Sam Adams]

I like L&P, and I think it should be reinstated ASAP. It is the first place I go when I come to THR, as the state of politics and how it affects our legal right to keep and bear arms is of paramount concern to me. I went there today to see if there had been any change in the status of the Parker case, of course to find that the forum had been closed.

I am ticked off and tired of the endless "Ron Paul is the greatest" vs. "Ron Paul is the Devil" rants, esp. when the thread in question has NOTHING to do with him, and similar such garbage. I am of the belief that the new rules, if enforced, will take care of the existing problems. The mods are, IMHO and without kissing anyone's hindquarters, very knowledgable, very good at what they do and very fair. I trust that they'll continue as such, and that L&P will reappear soon. PLEASE KEEP THE ARCHIVES!!!!!.

[Carl N. Brown]

Heck, at least preserve the L&P archives as read-only.

[Wheeler44]

When I first found THR I only looked @ technical forums, I was trying to find some info and google took me there for answers.
Then I joined and I could ask questions and get answers from some very knowledgeable folks. My son could ask me anything at all about firearms in general and I could dig up answers. If I couldn't find anwers in archives I only had to ask .
Then I found legal and political. There are/were some real interesting threads with some thoughtful folks posting. Different points of view, young folks asking old folks, lefties and righties jabbin' at each other, kinda like a family reunion.
Then it turned into a place for folks to pump their favorite candidate and call others names like liberal or democrat, redneck or republican, heck, it kinda looked like a trailer park just before election time, with cheap little signs proclaiming the virtue of such and such candidate and then a lot of yellin' with whomever might have a different opinion.
But man I kept coming back to see if anything good was up for discussion.

I hope it comes back, but I kinda feel like it might not.

See, a post count is good and all but there are folks here that have posted more times in the last month or so than I have since I been here.

And three strikes? heck if you don't know that somethin' you wrote would offend Art Eatman's Grammaw, you wouldn't figure it out after two warnings.

That charges the Mods with keeping track of how many times someone posted , and then how many times they posted offensively. And then how long since the last time since they posted offensively, what topic they posted offensively on, the phase of the moon during the last offensive posting, Etc. Etc.

No it just goes to show that folks, WE ARE HUMAN, like it or not, and some folks will always think so much of their opinion that they would say anything to anybody just to "PROVE" their point.

That, folks, is human nature and you can't change it any more than you can teach a pig to fly.

I hope Legal and Political comes back, 'cuz if it don't I sure will miss it.

Sincerely,

Wheeler44

[wingman]

The right to keep and bear arms is only one of our many civil rights that are being gradually encroached upon. All of these rights are inter-related, and if one is jeopardized, they all are jeopardized. If there is no forum to discuss civil rights in general here, then damage to the 2nd Amendment can be done by damage to other liberties.

The above pretty will covers my thoughts on closing L&P, it appears to
me many of the post that got out of hand were "usually" made by the same
people and in my opinion it was to get the thread shutdown, so you have
a few who hurt or halt something that works. It really is very simply if you
do not like a post or section don't read, move on, the mouse button has
magic use it.:)

[BigG]

It really is very simply if you do not like a post or section don't read, move on, the mouse button has magic use it.

I believe THR has a higher purpose and is meant to document that there are actually educated, aware people who like guns and are willing to share their enthusiasm with like minded individuals. Such people have enough sense to self censor their remarks without a statement to just "don't read it if you don't like it."

[pax]

Not so much like simply pulling a molar.

More like a root canal.

Sure, you're going to miss the tooth that gets yanked, but the alternative was to let the infection in that tooth poison your entire system.

pax

[bogie]

The nutters have left the asylum, and branched out into the community. One, in particular, has taken up e-mailing me... I wonder how many different identities he had on it...

[Carl N. Brown]

A root canal removes the infection but saves the tooth.
I hope that is what happens with L&P, although I must
say it has been nice to post more about guns and
less about politics.

[wingman]

Such people have enough sense to self censor their remarks without a statement to just "don't read it if you don't like it."


You just proved my point you simply are telling me I have no sense and you consider yourself educated and high road, interesting. Did I offend you with my post or am I not entitled too an opinion.

[mbt2001]

This is just my $0.02 for what it's worth...

Seems odd to close the entire L&P area for what some Trolls, idiots and zealots were doing. Isn't that like the Gun Banning ideology? Someone shoots up a school, so guns are banned... I can't control what trolls, idiots and zealots due, but that is what MODERATORS are for...

I am not trying to sound sarcastic or disrespectful, but it is how I feel. I posted most often in L&P. I enjoyed the discussions, and tried to stay on The High Road... Now, because of the mistakes of a few, no one can post there...

Let's not fall victim to the mentality discussed above. Let's warn people and then kick multiple offenders.

Again, my $0.02

[Euclidean]

Well what will the new L&P accomplish that the Activism Forum does not? I personally think the Activism Forum is a superior replacement.

[deadin]

"don't read it if you don't like it."

????? How am I to know I don't like it if I don't read it ?????

[F4GIB]

Corriea posted:
L&P is closed for now. This is an L&P topic.

Activism is for doing stuff.

The other forums are not any substitute for L & P.
Nor do they have the interest. I know the best load
for my self-defense shotgun.

[ArfinGreebly]

I came to The High Road from one of the major blogs.

I was reading . . . Misha, if I recall correctly . . . and followed a bunch of his links, met a number of interesting people (Tam, LawDog, etc.), some of them after a "two cushion bounce" off of other sites.

Wound up reading some stuff from THR. Two weeks later, I'd lost my trail of bread crumbs and was forever mired in the labyrinth.

Once my initial curiosity for certain technical issues was satisfied, I found myself reading well-reasoned and well-referenced advocacy discussions.

I began to grasp that there is more to gun ownership than just gittin' a shootin' iron and bustin' targets. I had my eyes opened about the pitfalls of CCW. I found that Heinlein was right: I was among some of the most polite folks I'd ever chatted with -- and they wuz all armed.

Naturally, after a bit, I found that certain topics tugged at me to pitch a couple of pennies in.

I found myself engaged by issues that directly affected freedoms and liberties -- many of those appearing in L&P -- and cultural and social influences in that same vein. I found myself challenged by the concepts under discussion.

While I didn't make L&P my primary hangout, I did find a certain amount of grist for my personal mill.

During the last few months (yeah, like I'm an old timer), I found less and less of interest in L&P, as the bulk of what I encountered was opinion, LOUD opinion.

I also noticed an increase in people who would just "show up" and right off the bat "earnestly" postulate positions counter to RKBA. I even engaged a couple.

More and more would show up and assert that "I'm pro-gun, BUT" . . . and off we'd go.

In my considered opinion, we were being infiltrated, primarily through L&P. The increase in contentious discussions, assertions that "certain common sense regulation is necessary," and some pretty twisted reasoning, led me to back off from L&P.

Nothing precise that I could put my finger on. Certain "members" seemed to have multiple personalities. One day they would argue one way, and go off on something else the next.

I know a little bit about conflict.

There is a rule: when an apparent conflict will not resolve despite the efforts of the evident parties, there is some other, hidden or obscure party promoting the conflict. That person will have something real or imagined to gain from perpetuation of this conflict.

Oleg and his crew evidently know this or sense it.

Legal issues are important to RKBA, so I know Oleg won't drop that altogether. The laws that pertain to the ownership and employment of arms are vital knowledge.

Politics . . . that's herding cats. Politics is clearly involved in the legal aspects of RKBA, and having the right people in public office clearly matters there.

Politicians, however, and often those who support them, are less interested in preserving rights and more interested in winning, and staying in power. Truth takes a back seat to this. Positioning, point of view, and platitudes are the tools.

"Promise her anything, but give her Arpege"

The Activism forum deals with this, but it can't address it all.

Finding the fine line where politically relevant FACT can be exposed and discussed, without getting into the emotions deliberately promoted by politicos, is something of a high wire act. While being pelted with fruit.

Remember (for those of you who are old enough) that kid who sat in the back and threw spitballs when the teacher wasn't looking?

He wasn't a bad kid, but his actions, while cute and funny, were detrimental to good order in the classroom. A teacher who wanted to maintain control had to either put the kid in his place or get him out of the class.

You can't teach if everyone's busy laughing.

Civil, rational discourse is required to promote real understanding.

You can't have such reasoned congress if everyone's busy bickering.

The guy who's always a little provocative, who's always just a little sharp, who can't resist the digs, will keep things stirred up. You either have to put him in his place or get him out of the venue.

If you can't do either of those, you have to close and purge the venue.

And then you can re-open, but with stricter controls.

So, when a legal forum does, once again appear, you can pretty much take it as read that the staff will be obliged to keep it on a short leash. Count on it.

It's what I would do.

It's the only thing what will work.

[TimboKhan]

Seems odd to close the entire L&P area for what some Trolls, idiots and zealots were doing. Isn't that like the Gun Banning ideology? Someone shoots up a school, so guns are banned... I can't control what trolls, idiots and zealots due, but that is what MODERATORS are for...

I don' think there is any comparison between closing L&P and banning guns. The right to bear arms is a constitutional right that is constantly under threat. THR is a privately owned forum in which people agree to adhere to a certain code of conduct. One is a right, the other is a privilege, as it were.

Moderators are not for controlling trolls, idiots and zealots, quite frankly. Obviously that is part of the job, but we always seem to forget that moderating is a lot of work and time, for no money and a whole lot of hassle. If self-governing isn't working, and if mods are starting to get burned out, I fail to see why the forum should be allowed to continue.

On one last note, if there are 99 people that are "normal", and one that is a "troll, idiot or zealot", who do you think gets the attention from a casual observer? The troll. Every time. Don't believe me? Try this: find a thread that starts off with good talk. Watch for the troll, and then watch the number of responses that start piling up dealing with said troll. Then, even after the troll has stopped posting, track the commentary and see if it ever gets back on topic. This is especially true in L&P because people are so passionate about politics.

While I am riding my stallion of superiority, let me point out that I am just as guilty as anyone. I haven't made a post on L&P in probably a year or more, but when I first joined THR, I would jump on occasionally, and sure enough, I got fired up and started trading progressively more heated posts with others. I took it upon myself to stop, because it wasn't fun for me to log on and get angry at someone else. It's not a matter of thick skin, it's a matter of passion. People are passionate about thier beliefs, and on the internet, where it is easy to say things that you might never blurt out in a face to face conversation, things can get heated real quick.

Anyway, thats just my two cents on the issue. I also just realized that after I said "one last note" I made other note. I am too lazy to go back and correct it.:neener:

[JCF]

More and more would show up and assert that "I'm pro-gun, BUT" . . . and off we'd go.

In my considered opinion, we were being infiltrated, primarily through L&P. The increase in contentious discussions, assertions that "certain common sense regulation is necessary," and some pretty twisted reasoning, led me to back off from L&P.



How ironic.

I too found myself drifting away... however it was prompted more by the number of individuals advocating war on Mexico, armed response to vandalism, recognition of the right to enjoy a day at the range with one's hallucinated friends, and suggestions of the deservedness of death by those unprepared to prevent it by force.

Bury it as far as I'm concerned.

[.cheese.]

so, is there perhaps an ETA for the new and improved L&P?

Or was that already said and I missed it?

[Balog]

Eh, L&P made me love the Round Table, and it made me go to APS. I loved the info in it, just couldn't hack wading through the noise.

[RealGun]

Eh, L&P made me love the Round Table, and it made me go to APS. I loved the info in it, just couldn't hack wading through the noise.

I suggest you didn't really want to read or post on the L&P topic. APS is available for politics or anything, but legal and political, or anything half serious is generally shunned on APS. There are a few exceptions, but I keep looking and have posted a few times, and no one was at home. Others were busy talking about all sorts of off the wall stuff, absolutely no connection to gun owners in particular. That is pretty much in the Roundtable tradition, but it is not how APS has been represented by management.

So don't let it be said that legal matters and politics can be referred to APS, because it ain't gonna fly without a real cultural change over there. How the site is actually used may not be exactly what the owner had in mind.

[Art Eatman]

I'm not alone is believing that a societal problem in the US is the need for "instant gratification": "I want it NOW!"

We've long heard from members--aside from any moderator belief--that L&P had serious problems. So, one way to deal with it and have some time to actually think about it is to close the forum for a while and rework the program.

I really do believe that folks will live long enough to see L&P re-open. Heck, I'm 73 years old, and I have no doubts.

I really fail to see why L&P is needed as some sort of daily medication; that without it folks will shrivel up and turn purple all over.

L&P is gonna be back. I suggest not worrying about it a whole bunch, since there is a lot more to life than the Internet, this website, or that particular forum...

Hey, I gotta go load a 10.5x24 backhoe tire into my truck, and go 85 miles to the tire repair shop tomorrow.

But that's just real life...

Art

[RealGun]

I really fail to see why L&P is needed as some sort of daily medication; that without it folks will shrivel up and turn purple all over.

I really think the vitality and longevity of a forum relies upon a critical mass of people getting in the habit of checking in on a daily basis. I wouldn't mock it. I have seen good groups wander off on other sites. I think it is important for L&P to return SOON but only for its constructive and high minded purpose.

If there is another site as good or better, populated by numerous people who really know something about gun law and able to have a dialog, supported by good software, I would like to hear about it.

[rbernie]

I like the Activism forum; it seems to do what is needed to address the politics of RKBA without the burden of chest-thumping and shrill implacables.

Were my vote to count, I would suggest that we bury L&P in some forgotton bit-bucket and let its bones rest in anonymous peace.

[deadin]

populated by numerous people who really know something about gun law

Here you have cut through to the crux of the problem.
There are many people who think they know gun law and very few that actually do. Telling them apart is near impossible with all of the static associated with most posts.

[pax]

I really think the vitality and longevity of a forum relies upon a critical mass of people getting in the habit of checking in on a daily basis. I wouldn't mock it. I have seen good groups wander off on other sites.

*laugh* I agree ... but what I conclude from that is exactly the opposite of what you did.

Thing is, I'm pretty sure that L&P would be greatly improved if a large number of our most active L&P posters -- specifically, the ones who visit THR only for L&P -- quit checking in here on a regular basis and wandered off to somewhere else. L&P had become a toxic environment, after all, and who made it so? That'd be the guys you're most worried about us losing if L&P stays shut too long, the ones who don't care about any other forum on THR anyway and will just quit checking the site if there's no L&P here anymore.

Toward that end, the extended closure is a Darn Good Thing, from where I sit.

pax

[RealGun]

All my gun, ammo, holster and other gear decisions are in place. Reloading is kind of on hold though and might take me into that area when I need it. I keep up primarily with L&P to make sure I can carry a gun, to the extent I can realistically do anything about it.

Subscribers who visit L & P almost exclusively or entirely so are then not necessarily to be thought of as somehow undesirable or pathological.

The only thing L & P really needs, short of cooperation, is active moderators with clear guidelines and a willingness to act on them, because too much of the posting was off topic or off the high road. Define those boundary concepts, still always subject to interpretation, and L & P should be able to get back to business.

Where exactly is critical legislation supposed to be discussed? It won't be in Activism, because the charter statement says the subforum is not for L & P. Who exactly establishes the position calling for activisim? Who says we do or should all agree? How does one share knowledge of the topic or pose a question for those who are informed about it?

I have seen a number of statements bashing subscribers, and absolutely a number deserve it. What will make the difference though is moderator action that could have occurred before.

If you don't want to ban people or delete posts when material is not actually deplorable and is in fact something about guns or related liberty issues, then create a dumping ground forum to which you can move posts that are not meeting the goals of the forum in which they were originally posted and belong nowhere else. I am not leading back to the Roundtable, because I believe posts on a gun forum should have something to do with guns and their ownership. When off topic (nothing directly related to guns), simply close it as before.

[BigG]

There have been some good things said here and Pax has given a great little nugget - the folks who come only for L&P have wandered off and good riddance. I don't like reading a bunch of toxic waste.

Pax said Thing is, I'm pretty sure that L&P would be greatly improved if a large number of our most active L&P posters -- specifically, the ones who visit THR only for L&P -- quit checking in here on a regular basis and wandered off to somewhere else. L&P had become a toxic environment, after all, and who made it so? That'd be the guys you're most worried about us losing if L&P stays shut too long, the ones who don't care about any other forum on THR anyway and will just quit checking the site if there's no L&P here anymore.

Well said! :)

[MudCamper]

I too found myself drifting away... however it was prompted more by the number of individuals advocating war on Mexico, armed response to vandalism, recognition of the right to enjoy a day at the range with one's hallucinated friends, and suggestions of the deservedness of death by those unprepared to prevent it by force.

Exactly. That and the near constant California-bashing is what started to drive me away.

Rereading Oleg's www.a-human-right.com is what convinced me to occasionally check back in here.

[evan price]

I will never claim that I am not opinionated however even I had problems with most of the stuff being tossed around L&P and actually I stopped visiting there soon after I joined.
Hooray on getting things back to the High Road.

[SolaScriptura139]

I am finding some dissatisfaction in L&P being closed though now. There are many topics that can't be covered anymore because L&P is closed. There are a few threads that have been in closed in General Gun Discussions solely for the reason that L&P is closed.

I had a thread topic that I wanted to post (which I felt actually belonged better in Activism), but couldn't because of L&P being closed.

I do hope that L&P is re-opened soon.

[Neo-Luddite]

The only real thing that L&P did for me was allow the linking of current RKBA stories from the media in a place easily noticed--it was handy for that.
And with L and P gone, those types of articles have been getting deep-sixed pretty fast. If those threads were allowed a little more latitude to float up on the foam for a bit, I think it would be in the genral interest. But then again, what do I know?

[Carl N. Brown]

Art: "without it folks will shrivel up and turn purple all over."

I saw an image in my mind of L&P deprived THRers as the
California Raisins.

[jpk1md]

Mods, thank you in advance for all of the work you do to keep things on track.

No disrespect intended in any way shape or form but we humble users would appreciate some update on the status Legal and Political Forum as it was a source of a lot of good information regarding upcoming and ongoing legislation and threats to the 2A in many states across the US and even abroad.

As a significant resource for archival info/reference would it be possible to make old posts visible even if they remain locked for the time being until issues are resolved?

Please forgive the post in an inappropriate place.

Tx

-JPK1MD

[Michigander]

While I am riding my stallion of superiority, let me point out that I am just as guilty as anyone. I haven't made a post on L&P in probably a year or more, but when I first joined THR, I would jump on occasionally, and sure enough, I got fired up and started trading progressively more heated posts with others. I took it upon myself to stop, because it wasn't fun for me to log on and get angry at someone else. It's not a matter of thick skin, it's a matter of passion. People are passionate about thier beliefs, and on the internet, where it is easy to say things that you might never blurt out in a face to face conversation, things can get heated real quick.

This reminds me of some people who say no one should own guns because they themselves, if they owned a gun, would shoot somebody just because they were angry at them.

To them I say, "Then don't own a gun!"

[Michigander]

Thing is, I'm pretty sure that L&P would be greatly improved if a large number of our most active L&P posters -- specifically, the ones who visit THR only for L&P -- quit checking in here on a regular basis and wandered off to somewhere else. L&P had become a toxic environment, after all, and who made it so? That'd be the guys you're most worried about us losing if L&P stays shut too long, the ones who don't care about any other forum on THR anyway and will just quit checking the site if there's no L&P here anymore.
Well I've been visiting THR for a while now and the only reason it has been as long as it has is due to the existence of L&P.

I've posted in General and Shotguns when I had specific questions. But being a rare shooter (hunting primarily), I pretty much own and know the weapons I want and I do not have that many questions about them. If I decide to buy another one, then I'd probably at least read, if not post, in other than L&P. (I'd like to think my posts were non-toxic!?)

However, if one of the goals of THR is to show "fence-sitters" that we are a decent bunch, I really do not see them checking in, or even ever seeing a link, to THR unless it is an L&P issue.

The "fence-sitters" are not going to be interested in whether or not the 9mm handgun has enough stopping power or where to find an old side-by-side. No. They will be interested in our views and opinions as to why we believe it necessary to own and/or carry. Eventually they may want to discuss those other things (hopefully so!). But I do not see anything other than L&P attracting them here in the first place.

Of course that means attracting "undesirables" too. And some of the "fence-sitters" may go the other way, especially if L&P is allowed to be run like the wild west. We certainly do not want that.

I guess the real question is this: Can L&P be re-opened in such a way that the majority of "fence-sitters" would more likely become pro-RKBA, or at worst, remain "fence-sitters." If the alternative is what is going to happen, then L&P would do more harm than good.

I do believe Oleg had/has more in mind for THR than just a bunch of "gun-nuts" discussing guns.

[BigG]

Do you notice how this is evolving into a L&P thread? People saying, in effect - "I just come here for L&P but I'm not one of the bad guys." That forum needs to be buried with a stake through its heart and the political sloganeering needs to go, too. JMTC

The main offenders are conspicuous by their absence since the L&P forum shut down. There are at least a dozen who have hardly a single post in any other forum who I remember were quick to give offense to anybody who was not willing to drink their Kool Ade. Good riddance.

[txgho1911]

The noise to signal analogy fits more than the L&P. The sub forum L&P was our Iraq for the Insurgent trollish and weevilish behavior. The crowds of questionable topic titles in General garner more sifting and discrimination by more and more readers on the board.
I do not open every odd titled thread. My thirst for reading more of the older parts of Social Situations has soured. 3 years ago I would peruse more threads than not. Now I look for gems by people I am confident in. Facts of Life is one such example. A completed story thread would be another.
Sorry Halffast I have to lay off the read if it is not going to be finished. I'll buy a copy when it gets to print. And Corriea when do I get my signed hard cover?

So while L&P is on the mend I would bet cash the rest of the section if not the whole board will see some adjustments and refinements all for the better. If there are alarms to be sounded and injustices to point out there are hundreds of venues online to reach the masses and all of us. Just not in our own L&P as it's on the mend.

[Correia]

And Corriea when do I get my signed hard cover? Currently out of my hands, and in the hands of somebody who's sitting behind a giant desk in some really tall building in New York. :)

And for those of you going through withdrawls, we're working on it.

[jpk1md]

Soooo...is there any ETA on reopening L&P or at least making old info/threads visible even if they remain locked for the time being?

There is a lot of good info in many of those discussions.

[MudCamper]

New trend: L&P discussions are now just ending up in the General Gun Discussion forums, now that L&P is closed.

[SuperNaut]

Some of the anti-mod posts I've been reading are beginning to chap my hide (not necessarily in this thread).

IME those who run afoul of the mods on THR do so as a result of thier own behavior, do you really think that the mods are persecuting you?

[deadin]

New trend: L&P discussions are now just ending up in the General Gun Discussion forums, now that L&P is closed.

Makes them easier to detect and lock down as being not firearm related.

[Lone_Gunman]

Have the number of people visiting THR decreased since L&P was abolished? I know I have spent more time over at TFL because L&P is down.

This is a better forum than TFL, and I would hate to see it fade away.

Most users ever online was 2,534, June 20th, 2007 at 10:26 PM.... that was before the ban on L&P.

[R.H. Lee]

Have the number of people visiting THR decreased since L&P was abolished?

Hopefully. This is a great gun board. Let's keep it that way.

[MudCamper]

Well I know we have the new "Legal" forum, BUT:

First, the "Legal" forum seems almost reduntant to me, since there is an "Activism" forum. They really should be a single forum IMO.

Second, and more importantly, I still find that the "Political" type posts are just getting posted in General Gun Discussion, and Strategies and Tactics, and elsewhere.

IMO, we need a "Political" forum just so the political posts don't end up everywhere else.

What happened to the idea of a "Political" forum that only registered users can see? Then we'd have a depository for that crap to land in, and "guests" won't see it.

[Green Lantern]

I'm "late to the party" here, but it was my understanding that L&P was closed down due to the bickering over the "P" part of it, political...?

So I'm more than a little baffled at THIS thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3673392) getting shut down by citing the L&P moratorium. :confused: :confused: :confused:

If anything, maybe it needed to be moved to "activism," since it was being used to respond to venom from an anti in the media...:confused:

[Art Eatman]

Moderators don't walk on water, although we do generally know where the rocks are.

:D:D:D

Art

[The Wiry Irishman]

The thing I like most about THR is the unified, informative, and intelligent front it provides for the pro-gun community. We all agree at one level or another about RKBA and that allows us to work together. Gun people come from all spectrums of society, and I believe that if the forum were opened for non-RKBA-related discussion it would incite bickering and fracture our virtual community, presenting a significant detriment to its overarching purpose: RKBA.