Need To Get Something Off My Chest...


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Ohio Rifleman
August 6, 2007, 09:28 PM
Mods, I apologize if this is out of line, but I just need to relate this incident to someone.

Keep in mind a few things here: I'm 20 years old, and have been into guns/shooting since 18. My dad is an ex-LEO, was on the force for 17 years. He owns a Ruger P-series 9mm pistol. Now, with all that out of the way...

I casually mentioned one day a few weeks ago that I might be interested in purchasing a shotgun for HD. (Since I'm a bit concerned about overpentration with my SKS, but that's been debated up and down) He just kinda chuckled and said "I'll take care of home defense."

Now that REALLY irritated me, but I didn't say anything. To me, that's exactly the same as depending on the police to save you if anything happens. I mean, my dad can't be here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I know, since I'm over 18, legally, what he thinks doesn't mean squat. But still... Also, when I mention getting my CCW when I turn 21, he doesn't seem terribly enthusiastic about that, trotting out anti-sounding remarks like "Why do you think you need a CCW?" :cuss:

I don't know, I just needed to relate that and see what my fellow High Roaders think about this.

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Zeke Menuar
August 6, 2007, 09:32 PM
Blow it off


Once your 21

Get your CHL

Take every firearms training class you can, handgun, shotgun and rifle.

Not much he can do or say after you turn 21.

Good Luck

ZM

jefnvk
August 6, 2007, 09:34 PM
Sorry to drag out the old saying, but its your dad's house, and your dad's rules.

This coming from a 21 year old.

RNB65
August 6, 2007, 09:36 PM
Why are you still living with your parents at age 20? :p

1911 guy
August 6, 2007, 09:38 PM
I don't know your Dad, but I'll take a stab at what he may be thinking about.

You're a young man about to turn 18 and be a legal adult. His protection of you is about to end and he doesn't like it. Not that he wants to control you, he wants to shield you from what he knows is a big bad world out there. Take care of HD? He'd rather put himself in harms way a hundred times than see you get hurt by some thug with a crowbar or gun. CCW? He'd probably rather not think that his son would ever be the victim of anyone's ill intent and need it.

It's an odd thing, seeing my perspective change now that I have a son of my own.

Eh, I'm not sure why I thought you said you were 17. Forget the "about to turn 18" part.

Ohio Rifleman
August 6, 2007, 09:43 PM
Sorry to drag out the old saying, but its your dad's house, and your dad's rules.

This coming from a 21 year old.

Let me clarify... Nobody's forbidding me or saying I absolutely CAN'T get a shotgun or a CCW (when I'm 21) he just doesn't seem to think I should. I still could do either of those things, except the CCW thing of course. I don't know, it just bothers me to think that he wants me to depend on him for protection in the house.

Novus Collectus
August 6, 2007, 09:44 PM
For now, if you only have the SKS and you are worried about overpenetration, then use sunsonic rounds using round or flat point bullets. Not sure if they sell them, but you might be able to reload your own. http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/762ProjectRifle.html

CTPistol
August 6, 2007, 09:49 PM
get your own house and keep as many shotguns as you want there.

You know how he feels, pushing it will just cause it to go to the "my house, my rules" ending.

and he's right.

;)

SaxonPig
August 6, 2007, 09:50 PM
You are the young lion on your way up.

He's the old lion on his way out.

Don't take it personally, it's a primordial thing.

When you are the head of the house you can say stuff like that to your kid.

James T Thomas
August 6, 2007, 09:51 PM
I hope that you do not discover that your father has liberal -socialism leanings. If it turns out so, realize that the process of educating him will take time and your patience.

He is overdue to receive you as a grown adult male; an adjunct to the defense of his wife, your mother and your home. Even him, if he would think about it.

How about your day to day behavior? At twenty -have you begun to exhibit a change from late teenage, or even college/ sophomoric traits?
That may be part of the reason your father is percieving you as a youngster yet. Just a thought.

He must know of the crime that goes on, out there on the streets and highways.

How far do you travel to friends or recreational events?

Ask him how long it will take to get to you if you are in danger and "need him to come and protect you?" Or for that matter -name the police in the juristiction you ask him for this example? He sould have first hand experience to make judgements about.

If you do decide to be emancipated at the legal age, still show your father the respect he deserves, and along with your independence, show him how responsible you are by adherence to safe gun posession and handling, so that he may be reassured in his son's actions.
Work this with your loving mother too.

I always have confidence in my two grown son's abilitiy to defend themselves and their loved ones. It is a family strength quality.

Bilt4Comfort
August 6, 2007, 09:53 PM
You took the high road by not giving him a smartass reply. Now go to him and tell him what you told us. If he is a reasonable man, he will at least listen to your side of it with an open mind. If he doesn't...you're free to live under your own roof.

Smokewagon45
August 6, 2007, 10:00 PM
Under his roof, he makes the rules. Get used to it.

scubie02
August 6, 2007, 10:02 PM
when it comes to a loved one, it doesn't matter how old you are--you're going to want to put yourself in harm's way before a loved one every time, and you may be 50 one day and him 70 or whatever, but you'll STILL be his kid, and he'll be sticking his frail old arm out if he has to hit the brakes and you're in the car...

Ohio Rifleman
August 6, 2007, 10:04 PM
One time, I asked him point-blank, how often he would actually interrupt a violent crime in progress (rape, robbery, assault, etc.) and he said that it was pretty rare to do that. Usually, they'd just show up after the fact. And I'll say again, he has not explicitly said I CANNOT get a shotgun or a CCW or anything like that. He just seems...unenthusiastic about either of these things for me.

At twenty -have you begun to exhibit a change from late teenage, or even college/ sophomoric traits?

I have always been mature and intelligent for my age. My folks have always told me so. And in my room, right now, there is a Yugo SKS, an M44 Mosin, and a Ruger 10/22 and plenty of ammunition for all three. I'd say that's plenty of trust right there.

How far do you travel to friends or recreational events?

I generally don't go terribly far from home, nor do I usually stay out very late. But things DO happen.

Furthermore, I take safe gun handling VERY seriously. I've never had a major safety violation at the range or at home. In fact, when we were at the range with his gun-nut friend (also ex-LEO) he covered my dad with the muzzle of his .380 pistol. I didn't notice at the time, but he told me that after we got home.

All in all, I don't think I've given my folks any reason not to trust me with a CCW or a shotgun for defense.

Henry Bowman
August 6, 2007, 10:08 PM
To me, that's exactly the same as depending on the police to save you if anything happens. I mean, my dad can't be here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Not exactly the same. He knows you personally. And, as stated, it's his house.

I know, since I'm over 18, legally, what he thinks doesn't mean squat.You might want to rethink that. Really. In another 5 years, you'll be amazed how much smarter he has become in such a short time. ;)

Ohio Rifleman
August 6, 2007, 10:09 PM
Henry Bowman, what I meant by that was that I could go out and buy a shotgun without his help or anything and it would be legal. And it bears repeating, nobody has expressly forbidden me from doing anything. If I were to buy a shotgun, he would probably think it's a waste of money, but he wouldn't likely do anything about it.

brighamr
August 6, 2007, 10:12 PM
When I was 17, I was actively involved in range competitions, hunting, and would go target shooting 2-4 times a week. My dad liked target shooting and was generally pro-2A.

When I mentioned packing on a regular basis, or having a gun for home defense; he wouldn't get mad but he didn't want me to do either of them. I couldn't stand it at the time, but his reasoning was:

a) if I couldn't pay for my own apartment, job, car, insurance, etc. I probably shouldn't be the one in charge of family security
b) if I was ever found packing (at a party or at a friends house or at a school function or anywhere where non-2A people could be present) it would cause a whole slough of social problems

I tried reasoning, but I never could win *while living at home. A couple years later, after having a steady job, going to college, buying my own car, my own insurance (basically being completely self-sustained). I did buy a mossberg and I did start to open carry my g17 whenever possible. I asked him then what his opinion was. He answered "I don't think you'll ever need that gun on your hip, or the shotgun in your house; but I do trust you to handle both of them and to take care of problems on your own now"

Long story short, most parents wont completely trust\respect a son or daughter who lives off of their income. (In their eyes you are still their "baby-boy") Getting a steady job, manning up to your mistakes and paying for all your expenses by yourself usually earns their trust and respect.

I'm not saying move out or anything, just trying to relate a similar experience and how it ended up. Nowadays, my dad often talks to me about 2A bills, laws, and general firearm questions because he thinks of me as the family expert NOT an industry expert ;) To tell you the truth, a main part of our father-son relationship is bashing gun-control bills and talking about the theories of individual gun rights.

I hope this helps.

*Don't take offense to all the people saying "his house, his rules". That's just a short way of saying it's hard to have total freedom when your not supporting yourself IMO.

MOSINS
August 6, 2007, 10:22 PM
Let it go, he'll get over it sooner than you think.

Even if they don't approve of your plan to CCW, carry away anyway.

:D

martinc64
August 6, 2007, 10:26 PM
When your dad's rules or his attitude about handling all the "man of the house" stuff starts bothering you it means you need to move out.

Move out.

grampster
August 6, 2007, 10:34 PM
Go buy a shotgun. Why are you making a mountain out of a molehill? You can do a lot of things with a good shotgun. Trap, skeet, hunt small game, deer, as well as having something around for HD.

I won't give you any advice about what breed to purchase as I particularly like a couple of different brands for my own reasons. But I like the Ithaca mod. 37 Featherlite pump in 12 ga. and have an Ithaca XL900 semi auto in 20 ga. which is a fine multipurpose firearm. I have found my Browning Gold Hunter in 12 ga. to be a fine multipurpose shotgun as well.

Go over to shotguns and there are lots of folks that can give you good advice.

joplinsks
August 6, 2007, 10:42 PM
I've faced these types of situations MANY times while living with my parents over the years... and believe it or not they still love me :) If I listened to all of their advise in protecting me, I wouldn't have much of a life. You gotta do what you gotta do.

If you consider yourself an adult and make your own living, then you got to start making your own decisions... living at home or not. Sure it's your father's house and he has rules, but if you're contributing to the household, then you have a right to enjoy your surroundings.

You mention owning a SKS and your Dad being a LEO... so don't see why your father would object to you owning a shotgun? In any case, if you want a shotgun... go buy one tomorrow. Get your CCW when you turn 21. Life's too short not to do what you want (within reason). With parents, it's sometimes better to ask forgiveness than ask permission.

MT GUNNY
August 6, 2007, 10:52 PM
Or maybe the father could not be a stuborn %$# and discus it like an adult.

One thing that I see with My father is that he is old school "I see no need for a rifle that has a
30 round mag, It only takes one round from a bolt action rifle ec......"
He said after showing him my AR 15 one time.

He grew up with single shot shotguns and bolt action rifles, (not that their is anything wrong with that)

I supose when Im a father Ill see my kids bying laser pistols and say something like,
"My M&P 40 will out gun that monstrosity of a weapon!!!

Agouti
August 6, 2007, 10:59 PM
My dad was an LEO for 25 years, and I'm only 18. He bought an S&W 9mm.
Funny how similar that it.

Doesn't want me to get a CCW, or necessarily like me having guns.

However, I've never considered the possibility of over-penetration with my SKS. I still don't. Of course, I'd probably use soft-points anyway. While I can legally buy my own arms, he won't let them into his house. I've just given in to this, occasionally makes deals with him, via quid pro quo, and modify current guns to fit the roles of guns he won't let me buy. When I was 15, I begged him to let me buy an AK. He said no. When I was 17, he still said no. Now that I'm 18, even though I can buy them, he won't let one into his house.

However, it's more an issue of money. $800 is apparently too much to spend on a silly AK. He saw that I planned on saving up and was going to buy a bulgarian milled one behind his back (cops can read minds, I swear, I didn't act funny, or even mention it to him), and started demanding half of my pay check to be saved for spending money during my college years. He knew that I'd quit when the school year came around to focus on my studies, and therefore had masterfully created a situation where I couldn't afford that AK. First he thought they were just bad juju, and then he just thought they cost too much.

Sure, he'll let me modify my SKS to take AK mags, honestly not caring about 922r, thinking it doesn't matter, because if he used to be an LEO and hasn't heard of it or doesn't care, then surely no one else will. But God forbid I get an AK. Sure, I can get a much more powerful k31, but no AK. Of course, my SKS doesn't take AK mags, if it did take them though, he wouldn't care -I've asked him. He'll even let me get it done, and took me to a few places to look around for such a thing. Of course, if I ever did, I'd make sure it was compliant. The total cost (including the price of the SKS) would be around $600-700, close to an AK, but still, can't get an AK.

I think he might be developing tendencies similar to the feds. I worry for his sanity sometimes.

Of course, we have five shotguns in the house, but I'm just not a fan of them.

Also, however, I think he thinks I'm rather immature. I have some troubles driving and don't have my license.

Meh, it's not bad at all, I guess. I'd rather have an SKS that can take AK mags over an AK anyway. I've decided just to go with the program. Hell, he's paying for my college and letting me live in his house, why should I complain?

G21
August 6, 2007, 11:07 PM
You father stills sees you as his child. You getting a gun is not something a child does. A gun can represent something that is very serious, and as a present day LEO, I can say a gun can also represent a harse reality of life. Maybe he's just not ready to see his little boy grow up so fast.

Perhaps you should try to involve him is a weapon selection, and ask him to give you some training lessons. Make this a right of passage between father and son.

MP5
August 6, 2007, 11:13 PM
My take: you owe your father respect, and he owes the same to you, particularly since you're an adult and no longer a child . He should respect and encourage your desire to defend yourself, your family, and your home in a thoughtful, responsible manner. If you're doing the moral and legal thing, he really doesn't have much room for complaint.

Parents are going to have mixed emotions about their child growing up and assuming the responsibilities--such as protection--previously reserved solely for themselves. But that's ultimately their issue, not yours. Parents need to point children in the right direction and then finally let go.

MT GUNNY
August 6, 2007, 11:22 PM
I dout AGOUTIs father has a saftey issue with his son, cuz he already has a SKS which can be very dangerous in its self..

boredelmo
August 6, 2007, 11:24 PM
Maybe you're a bit sensitive? Sounds like if he was chuckling it was in a light humorous way.

My dad sometimes think I'm a bit paranoid when i cc in the house (I'm 19 and at the parents house for the summer). He thinks he's safe enough and that nothing would really happen. And if something did, he would take care of it.

Example story: Loud pounding at door at midnight. We werent expecting any company, i asked firmly who was at the door. No response but extra pounding. I ran upstairs to grab the sig, while doing that my dad went and opened the door. He laughed at me grabbing a gun since it turned out to be one of his friends that needed a place to crash. But i didnt like the situation and how my dad just opened the door. He said if i felt so threatened, why didnt i just wake him up? I told him im more afraid of a grumpy dad than the meanest burglar.

My dad is gone 6 months out of the year and while hes gone, my mom really appreciates me CC'ing.


So no matter how much my dad scoffs at my paranoia, i don't mind, I'll keep this house as safe as possible within my power.

Neophyte1
August 6, 2007, 11:26 PM
I agree with you whole-heartily: Seeing our Children Growing until grown;
wow. How does the old saying go.
Something Like;
my child remain my child no matter how old I become.
My Son My Son I see you as the day you were born.
My Son we are your parents: Our concerns are forever.
We didn't bring you into this World to Bury you,
So stand behind me and let me be the first to go.

I had to paraphrase: CRS club

Ohio Rifleman: Be patient with your Father, his concerns are for-ever
Should my little bit of mess mean something to you; you'll understand that your Father loves you.
He hasn't Kicked you out of the House. You appear to respect, only frustrated with his opinion and decision. Let it go, The next time you see him remember;
This is the first day of the rest of our Lives.
Forget not; to tell him that YOU love him.
One day you will not have the opportunity.
Tomorrow is a new day.

Henry Bowman
August 6, 2007, 11:28 PM
Henry Bowman, what I meant by that was that I could go out and buy a shotgun without his help or anything and it would be legal. And it bears repeating, nobody has expressly forbidden me from doing anything. If I were to buy a shotgun, he would probably think it's a waste of money, but he wouldn't likely do anything about it.I understand that. But he may not want you taking a lead on home defense. There could be many reasons why. Some valid, some not. The validity of some will depend on the partriculars. He knows you well and for some reason isn't comfortable with the idea of you seeing yourself in or taking on the role of HD.

You could ask him his reasons. Be willing not to take offense if it involves him not seeing you as being as mature as you see yourself. If it involves training, maybe he will be willing to instruct. More likely, you will need to show that you take it seriously and are willing to get sound training (on your own). I'd recommend tdiohio.com. It is close by, not cheap, but very professional.

If he doubts your maturity (and is honest enough to say so to his son), remember that humility is an easily-recognized sign of maturity. I don't know you. I'm not saying you're immature. I'm just saying you're young. Nothing to be ashamed of there. He may be aware of some less than mature behavior that happened only 2 or three years ago. That will change. Likewise, when you are his age, "2 or 3 years ago" will seem like yesterday.

Sorry to sound like an old fart (I'm only 45 and consider that "relatively young"). Still, our opinion doesn't count. His does.

Ohio Rifleman
August 6, 2007, 11:35 PM
You father stills sees you as his child. You getting a gun is not something a child does. A gun can represent something that is very serious, and as a present day LEO, I can say a gun can also represent a harse reality of life. Maybe he's just not ready to see his little boy grow up so fast.

Perhaps you should try to involve him is a weapon selection, and ask him to give you some training lessons. Make this a right of passage between father and son.

I already personally own three guns, and my dad's taught me pretty much everything I know about guns and gun handling and maintainence. It seems that me using those guns for anything other than punching paper seems to bother him a bit.

Hoppy590
August 6, 2007, 11:45 PM
my fathers the same way. he wants me to clear any purchases with him, and doesnt want me to CCW. his logic "my house my rules" thats fine, when it comes to who gets the last slice of pizza, who picks what mel brooks movie, or how late/loud i can have the tv on then yes, thats fair. that "logic" should not even be considered int he exercising of my constitutional rights. officialy iv only cleared 2 of my purchases through him. and one of them was post fact. he knows about most of my collection. and obviously seems upset about it. but i dont care.

he also demanded keys to my cabinet. using the same "my house my rules " logic
i countered asking what he could possibly need access to my gear for.

Defense, he said theres no reason hed need to use my stuff, at the time, he had better, pistols etc.
Sport, he said theres no reason hed need to use my stuff, at the time he had better sport gear.

which brings me to the only logical conclusion i can think of. distrust. he would only need a key to remove my arms incase he thought i wasnt responsible.

iv never given him any reason to believe that... oh well. hopefully out of here soon enough

Trebor
August 6, 2007, 11:55 PM
Suck it up. His house, his rules and all that.

When your out on your own it won't make as much difference what your dad thinks of your lifestyle.

Just don't make this one of those arguments that sours your relationship for years. You don't have to be "right" or convince him of anything, Just let it go, suck it up, and do what you want when you move out.

Ohio Rifleman
August 6, 2007, 11:58 PM
The "his house, his rules" thing doesn't really apply here because I have not been expressly forbidden from doing anything. Let me repeat that...


MY DAD HAS NOT FORBIDDEN ME FROM DOING ANYTHING

jt1
August 7, 2007, 12:09 AM
Ohio Rifleman - Let it go, do what you want to do, and be happy he's still around to give you a hard time!

cassandrasdaddy
August 7, 2007, 12:09 AM
that is why i left home young. then it became my house my rules. i didn't try to have it both ways

ftierson
August 7, 2007, 12:22 AM
What jt1 says...

:)

Forrest

Henry Bowman
August 7, 2007, 12:29 AM
Then what are you complaining about? He chuckled at you? I guess we all missed the point.

Ohio Rifleman
August 7, 2007, 12:33 AM
Thanks for the responses, all. We do live in a very nice town/neighborhood, but, as we all know, things do still happen. I'm in no hurry to buy a shotgun. Actually, I was hoping my next firearm purchase would be a handgun I could realistically use for CCW. As my dad pointed out, it is a tremendous responsibility to carry a gun. But then again, so is driving a car. In either situation, a moments inattentiveness could get yourself or someone else killed.

Then what are you complaining about? He chuckled at you? I guess we all missed the point.

I interpreted that as sort of saying that my concerns were invalid, and that I should depend on him for protection/defense. I thoroughly despise depending on others for anything, so that's why the thought of getting a shotgun/CCW appeals to me. I'm responsible for myself.

Henry Bowman
August 7, 2007, 12:34 AM
Correct you are. Carry on and keep safe.

ArfinGreebly
August 7, 2007, 12:35 AM
It's only natural for a young man to look up to his father and try to learn the skills that his father has.

Dad, sooner or later I'm going to have to take care of things like this myself. You've always done well with it, and I'd rather learn from you than someone else.

I know it's early for a sidearm, but I'm sure you can give me the guidance I need in selecting and learning to use the long arms.

I'd appreciate learning from someone I trust. How can we arrange this?

Could be he'd rather have you learn from "someone who's trained" rather than some fool stranger down at the range.

You can tell him what you plan, or you can ask him how the plan should go.

More wisdom comes from asking than telling.

At least, it seems that way to me.

EdLaver
August 7, 2007, 12:43 AM
Not to be rude to you Ohio, but like some of the other posters have mentioned. If you live at your fathers house then you must simply abide by his rules out of respect of him being your father. If you do not want to abide then you should leave and have your own place of residence and make your own rules.

I personally think that he is wise about what he has asked of you. If in any case there is a home invasion he doesnt want two, (you and him) possibly three (the intruder or maybe more) to be blasting away and someone getting caught in a incidental crossfire. Makes sense to me, but it took me until I was 23 to mature and understand alot of things my dad told me at a younger age. I tell you what, my relationship with my father is bulletproof now because I respect all the things he told me, even when I was young and bull-headed.

Hoppy590
August 7, 2007, 12:56 AM
If you live at your fathers house then you must simply abide by his rules

apply that to any other tyranical situation. replace Father with country and see how much it makes sense. whether its the BATFE or your Dad. there are some things you should argue when no logical arguement is given.

( not saying anyones right or wrong. i just ask people to think about this)

koja48
August 7, 2007, 12:56 AM
Ohio Rifleman - Let it go, do what you want to do, and be happy he's still around to give you a hard time!

That is DEFINITELY worth repeating . . . it's a "Dad" thing. And don't let this turn into an argument or deteriorate what sounds like a great relationship. I had similar feelings when my Son wanted to move out on his own . . . Dads are "protectors." This, too will pass. I wish my Dad were still here -- I'd relish the occasional difference of opinion.

Ohio Rifleman
August 7, 2007, 01:18 AM
I'm not taking this personally, and maybe some of you all are right, and I'm just making a mountain out of a molehill. My folks, especially my dad, are always telling me how I'm much more mature and trustworthy than a lot of other people my age. And, if they trust me with that 2-ton weapon I have sitting outside (car) then guns should be no problem.

DavidVS
August 7, 2007, 01:40 AM
Maybe he is thinking that after dealing with an armed criminal in the home apologizing to the woman of the house about the holes in the walls and furniture , and the blood on the floor, are things he would rather do than have you attempt...
:-)

Bopleo
August 7, 2007, 01:45 AM
Move out and get whatever the hell you want.

How hard can this be?????

sgratra
August 7, 2007, 02:03 AM
This thread effectively ended at post 39. For what it's worth:

Your dad has probably seen more than his fair share while on the force for 17 years. Put another way; YOU DON'T HAVE HIS EXPERIENCE. Who cares about his stances or views. He is worried about you staying alive; I know that sounds counter intuitive, but when you introduce a firearm for more than sport; you clearly jump to a new level of responsibility.

Decisions have to be made on the fly, while considering every minute detail; from personal safety, to the safety of the public, to legal use of the force continuum; just to name a few. blah blah blah

Just out of curiosity, why aren't you following footsteps and joining the force yourself?

And no your not ready- PERIOD. Your closer than most though, myself included.

TCB in TN
August 7, 2007, 02:12 AM
when it comes to a loved one, it doesn't matter how old you are--you're going to want to put yourself in harm's way before a loved one every time, and you may be 50 one day and him 70 or whatever, but you'll STILL be his kid, and he'll be sticking his frail old arm out if he has to hit the brakes and you're in the car...

+1 and I never understood it till I had my own kids. That said dad trained me to take care of myself and the house if he was away, and I have been doing the same with my kids. (My 14 year old knows what to do IF I am away, or if at home and something happens to me).

jefnvk
August 7, 2007, 02:32 AM
Not to sound like an ass, but I got one last thign to say. If your father hasn't forbidden you to do anything, and you can do it/feel you need to do it, then by all means go ahead and do it.

However, your argument sounds like mine the past few years have been. You don't like something your dad said, and will complain and moan to anyone that will listen, hoping for agreement from us that you are right, and you father is wrong.

Believe me, I spent the past few years doing that. A while back, right about the time I really started cutting ties and drowning in the debt of living off on my own, I realized that those years, I was wrong, dad was right all along. Just because you hit the age the gov't has set for adulthood, doesn't mean you know quite everything. You may think you do, but sometime in the next few months or years, the same realization will hit you. Everything will become much clearer as to why it was done. Maybe one day, you'll even thank him.

Hoppy590
August 7, 2007, 02:46 AM
And no your not ready- PERIOD. Your closer than most though, myself included.

then when is he ready? when his dad says hes ready? :scrutiny:

we all know depending on some one else is a loosing proposition. and all the fathers here have already stated no matter how old you are, or how much experience you have. your still a kid to the. so by default, if we all waited till our fathers or others older than us approved we would all be old and gray before we could CCW.

whos to decide when im ready? my father, who as stated by other fathers, will always see me as a kid?

myself? cause i already decided im ready to start this up. more courses, more range time. if it was up to my father i wouldnt.

the state? cause iv already jumped through more hoops in 4 years than most of you will in a life time, just to own guns. iv been approved by a draconian state to own guns, twice, including a Class A license.

Ohio doesnt seem to take this personaly, but i certainly do. iv busted my butt and fully know that even so much as talking trash in a bar, completly un armed, no physical conflict, puts my CCW at great risk. iv never been in a fight and having never weighed more than 130lbs in my life. know damn well to commit to avoidance and deescalation

/rant

Ohio Rifleman
August 7, 2007, 03:15 AM
I find it odd that I'm mature enough to volunteer for military service, but not to carry a handgun.

Agouti
August 7, 2007, 03:18 AM
" I dout AGOUTIs father has a saftey issue with his son, cuz he already has a SKS which can be very dangerous in its self.."

He wasn't going to let me get one, but his best friend told him it was a decent rifle, and alright for deer hunting in Michigan (he kept on mentioning the beautifully machined charging handle... strangely enough). Originally, my dad's friend wanted me to get a .308, but when I mentioned a CETME, my dad was even less keen on the idea -partly the cost, (it was around 1 grand) and also, after 3 shots with his .30-06, my arm was hurting, so I stopped shooting it, -the .308 was pretty close to this, and he decided the recoil would wreak havoc on my shoulder.

mnrivrat
August 7, 2007, 03:54 AM
Interesting that nobody has thought of the possibility that perhaps the OP is concerned that his father shows some signs of being the type of LEO that is against "citizen" carry.

I'm the professional, the citizens should not be carrying guns mentality is nothing new is it ? Perhaps this is the real reason and concern , and has nothing to do with the father - son thing , or the my house thing ?

SMMAssociates
August 7, 2007, 04:53 AM
Ohio Rifleman:

I'm 61. Mom (she's 92) still thinks I'm her "little boy".... I moved out about 35 years ago....

Dad, who passed away in 1999, had pretty much the same attitude until I'd been out of the house for about a year.

On topic: Dad, who had been in the military, and had checked out on machine guns and the 1911, and likely an '03, pretty much said "no guns without a badge". Got myself sworn in (rent-a-cop) in 1967.... That showed him :D .... (Never went full time - my day job paid a lot more and was far less infected with politics. The rent-a-cop work was a combination of fun and extra money.)

'Course, you have to be 21....

The "can be a soldier, but can't carry a handgun at home" thing is nanny state stuff. Typical of OH, but common in most states. I know 21-year-olds who are mature enough, and 60-year-olds who aren't.... There's probably no reliable test, so an artificial number has been agreed on by people who are much older....

Lets face it, too, that mom & dad still see a rugrat.... I do it too - my daughter's 21 and I'm still seeing her tossing bits of fishsticks to the dog from her high chair....

You'll get there eventually....

I don't see that age limit changing anytime soon....

Regards,

Houston Tom
August 7, 2007, 08:13 AM
you have an SKS and there is a 9mm in the house as well correct. Granted your an adult but you have the means to protect yourself live with that and let the issue go, when you move out on your own you can get all the guns you want. Pick your fights wisely and IMO this is not one to fight as you already have an SKS.

pacodelahoya
August 7, 2007, 08:27 AM
It's hard to turn off the dad switch, he probably doesn't want you to shoot someone that doesn't need shooting. On the other hand, when my step daughter moved out of the house(she says I kicked her out:)) She got a basic pistol class from the nra and a kel tec p11 as a house warming gift.

She got a baretta neos for her last birthday and a (inexpensive) 1911 for christmas.

If I thought she liked longguns, she would get one of those but right now, she is tryning to get ahold of her mom's Bersa .380.:evil:


Have you tried just asking him if he would mind you getting a shotgun, just because you want a shotgun? Not for any other reason?

AntiqueCollector
August 7, 2007, 09:41 AM
I already personally own three guns, and my dad's taught me pretty much everything I know about guns and gun handling and maintainence. It seems that me using those guns for anything other than punching paper seems to bother him a bit.

Perhaps, during his years as an LEO, he saw some pretty nasty things, and doesn't want to see you faced with those harsh realities. He may see himself as protecting you from it...maybe. Not saying he's right but he may have different motivations than you think, regardless of how illogical it sounds.

PennsyPlinker
August 7, 2007, 10:06 AM
OhioRifleman, I come to this as a parent of a 21 year old also. She is exceptionally mature for her age, but she is not all that old yet. I remember when I was her age too, and I thought I had arrived at adulthood. There was still a long way to go, and today, at the ripe old age of 48, I can still see that sometimes.

Your father did not forbid you to buy a shotgun, and that says a lot about his respect for you. But he knows you better than you might think. Perhaps he sees some of his own youth in you - it is not unheard of you know. So buy the gun, but lay low on the HD stuff. It's not like you need to bring it up on a regular basis or anything. If you need it, it will be there, and perhaps someday when you are talking to your own 21 year old, you will remember this event, and see it from the perspective of your father.

KD5NRH
August 7, 2007, 10:22 AM
When I was 15, I begged him to let me buy an AK. He said no. When I was 17, he still said no. Now that I'm 18, even though I can buy them, he won't let one into his house.
Of course, we have five shotguns in the house, but I'm just not a fan of them.

Think his head would explode if you got a Saiga-12 and a case of slugs?
:)

gunsmith
August 7, 2007, 10:33 AM
He has hardly any interest in guns and often doesn't carry off duty.
Some cops are just like that, secretly, get real good in ISPC or IDPA
and take him to a match some day.
Surprise the heck out of him!:D

Sry0fcr
August 7, 2007, 12:30 PM
Since he hasn't forbidden you to do so, get the shotgun and your CCW & calmly remind him that you know that home defense is his responsibility but it becomes yours when he's not around or (god forbid) if something happens to him during the course of that responsibility. He can't radio for backup anymore. If he makes an issue of it, it's probably time to get your own place.

Agouti
August 7, 2007, 03:27 PM
"Think his head would explode if you got a Saiga-12 and a case of slugs?"

Not sure. I didn't get a job this summer, the local grocer was pretty much the only employer in this small town (didn't want me, I'm 18 now so I have to get paid minimum wage... I'd work for less though...), and to get to the big(ger) town 30 miles over, one needs to be able to drive. Sure, I applied everyone, and I'm doing some small work for a photo company, but it's not enough to buy a Saiga.
Yes, I was planning on getting one of those... though I'd had no idea where to store it. Maybe if I just kept it in it's case, he wouldn't notice it next to his shotguns that he only uses a few times during the fall. :D

Neophyte1
August 7, 2007, 03:39 PM
Ohio Rifleman: Sir; a nerve has been Struck;

At 18 years of age Quite a number of received in the Mail a Piece of Paper.

That Paper prompted us to BECOME MILITARY. Sir we did not Volunteer.

At a little stronger than 18 years; some of had been Shot; stabbed, beat, and fed a bunch of mosquitoes. Times are different now. Professional they Call It.

Sir; at 18 we were trained to tough standards; not that a lot of us wanted to be there. I Grumbled as many of my compatriots.

Now imagine; returning from an active situation; going to a local club;
BEING REFUSED ENTRANCE because of AGE.

Sir: discrimination at the worst; And I didn't want to Military to start with.

You suggest an Arugument that some of us have enjoyed [read smartassed}

The givens at your Home seem MIGHTY FINE: only one grumble.

Sir: I encourage you to re-visit my original thoughts.

The edge is off now

Good Luck, Craig

Ohio Rifleman
August 7, 2007, 04:31 PM
I do think that if I mentioned buying a shotgun for busting clays, that wouldn't be a big deal. There's a trap range at the outdoor range we go to, so it wouldn't be a big deal. We also have several clay targets we wanted to use, but some over-zealous RO said we couldn't use 'em.

My dad did say that being around strangers with guns makes him a bit nervous. Probably just old cop instincts, I think. When you're a uniformed LEO and someone you don't know has a gun, chances are, bad things are about to happen, or are happening. I don't think he's a closet anti.

ArfinGreebly
August 7, 2007, 04:35 PM
I still think there's merit in soliciting training from your dad.

I mean, heck, better than learning from a stranger, right?

revjen45
August 7, 2007, 04:41 PM
Buy a Mossberg Combo and say you're into bird hunting.

Ohio Rifleman
August 7, 2007, 04:42 PM
I couldn't agree more. And "professional" training costs money. Money that I don't have. I've shot my dad's 9mm, and I don't particularly care for it. My dad's gun-nut friend (who covered my dad with the muzzle of a .380) once brought some hardware for us to shoot. Including a Smith and Wesson .357 revolver, a .40 Beretta pistol (I think) an M1 Garand (Lots of fun!!) and a slug gun. (I could only 2-3 rounds out of that sucker before I threw in the towel) Had a blast, I especially loved hearing that Ping! when the Garand ejected the clip. I'd heard that noise countless times in all the first-person WW2 shooters I've played. I didn't like any of the handguns except the revolver. I decided that I'm a revolver guy. Don't particularly care for semi-auto pistols.

Anyway, my dad's already taught me what little I know about handgun shooting as well. Maybe I could talk him into giving me a bit of free training.

PennsyPlinker
August 7, 2007, 05:28 PM
Anyway, my dad's already taught me what little I know about handgun shooting as well. Maybe I could talk him into giving me a bit of free training.

You have no idea how happy that will make him!

hso
August 7, 2007, 07:06 PM
"Ok Dad, but what do I do if you're not home to protect your little boy?" (to be said in a good-natured tone with a big smile)

kellyj00
August 7, 2007, 07:19 PM
how about you say something like
"Yes Dad, I respect you and I owe my every skill in firearms to you and your patience in teaching me safety and marksmenship. I will do whatever you wish as I owe the food that I eat, and the roof over my head to your hard work."

I remember being 20, I lived in the 'bad part of town' where the rent was cheap. In Wichita, KS....even the worst part ain't all that bad. I bought a mossberg 500 12 gauge and a box of 00 buckshot with a full two-weeks paycheck. I'm 25 now, and I bought MY DAD a Taurus pt99 for father's day two years ago, and never ever mention anything gun related around them until recently when I found out that they weren't as anti-gun as I originally thought.

Respect your parents' wishes or get out. I know that's the social aspect of it, but I've had my 19 year old brother living in my house for over a year because of a spat with our mom about him spending too much time with his girlfriend. He learned real quick, if I'm paying the mortgage he's gonna do what I say....and that meant full time school, at least part time work and half the utilities. No rules on girlfriends, but be respectful because I'm going to work in the morning to pay for this lovely roof over your head. Funny thing is, those were the rules I had to live by when I was 19 that made me move out in the first place.

Bottom line, you're an adult. I moved out at 20, got my degree at 25 with no debt and a few guns in the closet and a full belly most nights. You've got to work for freedom, amigo, and there's no freedom like owning your own home.

JeffKnox
August 7, 2007, 07:56 PM
Rifleman,
There's a thing called Powdered Butt Syndrome that says that once someone has powdered your butt, it's almost impossible to gain that person's full respect.
You'll eventually get there, but there's no need to push it with your dad.
I have to ask if you've ever considered going into the military? It would give you an opportunity to broaden your horizons and earn your own way through school. Of course they won't let you play with guns if you're in the military - unless they send you somewhere where people are trying to kill you, in which case they will let you carry a gun and ammo, but both have a safety wire that you have to get an officer's permission to break.
Look at it this way, you have another 60 years to go; plenty of time to learn, grow, and earn respect.

Best,

Jeff

CNYCacher
August 7, 2007, 08:11 PM
I don't know, I just needed to relate that and see what my fellow High Roaders think about this.

I think you missed an opportunity for the best come-back evar!

He just kinda chuckled and said "I'll take care of home defense." Now that REALLY irritated me, but I didn't say anything . . .

Also, when I mention getting my CCW when I turn 21, he doesn't seem terribly enthusiastic about that, trotting out anti-sounding remarks like "Why do you think you need a CCW?"


"Because I can't bring you with me everywhere I go, dad."

:)

hiaintgottnunne
August 7, 2007, 08:36 PM
Hi
From the point of view of youth, parents can be utterly contrary &/or obtuse sometimes, speaking from the position of having had them and been one.

A couple notes;
Over penetration: frangible bullets are available....
[U]shotguns: Mossbergs, 590 & a self-loader 931 (Big 5, on sale at about 450bux otd). Each is dandy and easy in it's own right, takes up to 3" shells, & the self-loader is very easy on the shoulder, holds 5 std rounds, & so far digests everything from heavy to light loads.
[U]Somebody one said something to the effect that if you dial 911, call an ambulance & order a pizza, you can ikely eat the pizza while you wait on the other 2. That's about all I can think of to say on somebody else's looking out for my health & wellbeing.
Tally ho!

45Broomhandle
August 7, 2007, 08:41 PM
I'm on you're side, Ohio. Many moons ago my kids (school age) were shooting full-auto stuff along with the usual single=shot .22rfs. Not long ago my wife and I, and our youngest daughter (now 39 and a NASA Aerospace Engineer) attended the required safety class - and range outing - here in Florida to obtain our Personal Carry licenses.

In high school I once owned 152 guns, many more than now. We lived outside town on 3 acres surrounded by farms, fronting on the old National Highway (US 40) which was pre-Interstate. On those 3 acres I had a nice after-school gun business, AND a place to shoot. Dad owned 2 guns: a Colt 1903 .32acp and a Stevens double 20ga.

I've ALWAYS carried a gun. Thankfully, never had to use it. But, it sure was a comfort when threatened. I consider it cheap insurance. I'd rather have it and NOT need it, than to need it and NOT have it.
It's YOUR life and safety that's at stake, and you certainly can't have Daddy with you 24/7. Follow your instincts. Daddy won't be around forever. Would be interested in knowing what (if) you decide.

Best regards, ~~~45Broomhandle

http://www.hunt101.com/img/356839.jpg

YES, there IS a place for all of God's creatures: right next to the potatoes and gravy.

phaed
August 7, 2007, 09:00 PM
I know, since I'm over 18, legally, what he thinks doesn't mean squat.

There's your problem. You think that since you are 20 years old, your dad doesn't run the show. Unfortunately, you are in his house. He does run the show whether you like it or not. You don't like it? It's time for you to move out.

JKimball
August 7, 2007, 09:33 PM
So I'm wondering, who do you trust more... your dad, or a forum full of anonymous gun nuts? haha (Actually I think you're getting some great advice here. And it just keeps coming!)

You already said what I was thinking - just get a shotgun and a clay pigeon thrower and go have some fun with your dad. If he is fine with you having an SKS in your room, I can't imagine he'd have a problem with you having a shotgun. Just hold off on all the tactical modifications until you're on your own or he is comfortable with it.

Shotguns are great all-around guns. Gotta getcha some.

SMMAssociates
August 7, 2007, 10:06 PM
... a forum full of anonymous gun nuts?

Igor http://i14.tinypic.com/3523oed.jpg and Sammy http://i1.tinypic.com/mrtxjq.jpg are not amused....

(OK, we are anonymous.... :D )

Good advice from all here!

Rifleman:

Not to poach, but if you're not already a member, hit the OFCC forum. Lots of OH specific information and suggestions there. And more anonymous gun nuts. http://ohioccwforums.org/

Regards,

Ohio Rifleman
August 7, 2007, 10:10 PM
[u]Over penetration: frangible bullets are available....

I have thought about getting some SPs or Glasier safety slugs for my SKS, but they're darn expensive.

I'm still debating whether or not to get a scattergun, I'd like my next firearm purchase to be a handgun, so I could realistically use it for protection outside the home.

theken206
August 7, 2007, 10:31 PM
hate to be a parrot......but........ move out on your own, or your just gunna have to deal with it.

Also,maybe you should consider PAYING RENT ya darn freeloader!!!! I kid I kid :} but it might make a diffrence in your pops seeing you as a "man".

Ever since I turned 18 ive been having similar problems, not with guns mind you{lol dads a fellow gun nut, bought me my first gun, a walther p-22, and even bought me a 1300defender FOR homedefense when I was 17 } but with generall isssiues of being an adult. Keep in mind agin that your dad still sees you as his CHILD{cuzzyou are,lol} even though you are now an ADULT.

jefnvk
August 8, 2007, 12:44 AM
Another thing that has popped into my mind. IMagine you are in your fathers place. His 20 year old son just told him that he wants to buy a shotgun for home defense. If he is anything like a lot of people I know, he may take that as you don't think he is doing a good enough job in that department. While that is probably not what you are thinking, it is sometimes easy to jump over the real meaning to some obscure hidden imagined one. And in all honesty, it is going to lead right back to you are not top dog in that house.

Ohio Rifleman
August 8, 2007, 01:18 AM
I guess it would be a bit awkward for a dad. THIS is why I posted this on THR. Not to get sympathy from a bunch of "annoymous gun nuts" as one poster put it, but to get a different perspective. Make me think about the whole situation in a different way.

Ohio Rifleman
August 9, 2007, 07:00 PM
I do wonder how those who said "his house, his rules" would respond if my dad was, instead, trying to tell me how to worship or what to believe. Would I have to submit because "his house, his rules?" :confused:

PennsyPlinker
August 9, 2007, 10:27 PM
I can tell you that in my house, the adult children have to attend a church, although not necessarily my church, and they have to observe several other rules that some might think are an infringement on their own rights and freedoms. No problem sez I, feel free too leave anytime you think the rules are to restrictive. I even have a Big Dog coffee cup that says, My house, my rules. :evil:

jefnvk
August 9, 2007, 10:38 PM
I do wonder how those who said "his house, his rules" would respond if my dad was, instead, trying to tell me how to worship or what to believe. Would I have to submit because "his house, his rules?"

Yes, I would. You're an adult. If you choose to stay there, you choose to stay with his rules.

SMMAssociates
August 9, 2007, 11:10 PM
I have a mental block against forcing somebody to be religious.... (Long and painful story.) However "my house, my rules" still holds here otherwise.

We are basically "observant". (I see the Rabbi on the range more often than in the Synagogue, but the wife attends regularly.) The kid isn't allowed to play "rap" music. No drugs. No boyfriends with the door closed. Girlfriends are not required to wear clothes.... :what:

(Oh well. Ignore the last one.... :uhoh:)

She moved out about three years ago. Nursing school.... Then she decided that us empty nesters were bored and dropped him on us: http://i1.tinypic.com/mrtxjq.jpg.

Seriously, I see nothing at all wrong with the kids having to live within mom & dad's framework. Even if they're 29.... What I don't care for is when mom & dad micromanage.... I bought a car once. Took the trouble to show it to dad before putting down the cash. The final price turned out to be about $50 more. He didn't talk to me for a week after taking umbrage at the price change....

Regards,

fishingjld
August 10, 2007, 12:03 AM
well you would think he would be more understanding being ex-leo. good luck though

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