7.62X54r ammo drying up?


August 6, 2007, 09:44 PM
If thats the case,gonna have two safe queens.I don't reload. I thought there was all this ammo (surplus) around. is this justa reason to raise the price or what? is the 7.62X39 next?

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August 6, 2007, 09:48 PM
They may be expecting some shipment soon,

If nothing else, Wolf ammo is a good alternative, they even have a 7.62x54r match ammo.


August 6, 2007, 10:10 PM
7.62x54R is used in Dragunov sniper rifles and a few heavy AK-based machine guns; the US gov't is contracting out a bunch for Iraqi and Afghani security forces, just like 7.62x39, so that's (partly) why domestic ammo is up, along with the price of raw materials increasing a bunch.

As for surplus, BATFE isn't letting any more in - either hope that changes, get a reloader or make peace with the idea of paying $12 for a box of 20... :(

August 6, 2007, 10:38 PM
why aren't they allowing surplus ammo but new production is still good to go? That makes no sense.

bill larry
August 6, 2007, 11:31 PM
No no no. Winchester, Wolf, and Barnual (among others) all make ammo for the 7.62x54r. Ammo itself is not going to dry up anytime soon. Surplus might but...who cares...

I just sold all my remaining x54r Czech surplus. I reload for it, and I'm tired of corrosive ammo cleanup. Reloading is the way to go for the long run, and there's not much excuse for not doing it. Whatch gonna do if Hillary or some such gets elected? What if there are further importation bans? Buy components, a press, and dies!

BTW, Barnual makes excellent ammo in this round, and it's softpoint to boot. I can find it locally for 6 to 7 dollars a box, which is cheaper than anything else other than .22lr and 7.62x39.

August 6, 2007, 11:43 PM
SOG order p/n AMO76254G - 250rnd $39.95+shipping

August 6, 2007, 11:56 PM
Looks like thats what I have to do,aim or sog...I hate politicians.
remenber when we used to vote them out for not doing a good job.We use to have a say on what we wanted them to do!.....My next life I'll find another hobby.:confused:

August 7, 2007, 01:09 AM
LMAO :D the man thinks the BATF should actually make sense!!!!!! Commercial ammo is regulated differently than surplus ammo by the BATF, the only stuff they aren't approving form 6s for is surplus ammo, it has no effect on 7.62x39 other than the price going higher and higher, the price on all military calibers will start climbing as collectors have no choice but to go for commercial ammo etc....

I'm good for at least 15 years plus I reload for all military calibers but... brass will eventually wear out and need to be replaced but thats maybe 20 years down the road for me, sure glad I ain't havin to accept these $200 per 1000 rnd prices on 7.62x39 though thats really gotta suck!

I will be buyin up guns though in a few years when those who didn't heed the warnings and stack it deep the last couple years start gettin tired of payin comercial ammo prices......... however ya do understand that without cheap ammo many of the guns will not have the value they did last year .................... ;) sorry..........

August 7, 2007, 03:16 PM
I just called up SoG and got 1750 rounds of their surplus. They didn't know the country of origin, but they said it's 1950's manufacture and comes in 250 round sealed cans. It worked out to 18 cents per round shipped.

August 7, 2007, 03:20 PM
Could someone please tell us where this rumor about the government banning further 54R shipments is coming from? This is the third thread on THR about the issue, but nobody seems to know where the rumor got started or what authority there might be to back it.

August 7, 2007, 03:23 PM
I'd like know that too. But I've seen enough ammo disappear or get too expensive lately, and I wasn't going to wait to find out the hard way.

August 7, 2007, 03:27 PM
When I called Classic Arms earlier, they said they had sold out of their 54r and did not expect to get any more. It may be worth a call to AIM to ask Eric. He's a straight shooter.

August 7, 2007, 03:50 PM
It should be Bulgarian, some of the cases had strippers clips, but not all of them.

I know century, at the moment, is out of surplus 7.62x54r.

August 7, 2007, 04:09 PM
The surplus stuff just runs out on its own of course. But I won't cry too many tears when the last of the banian goes away. The commercial 54R is also very inexpensive and is a lot better quality. Not to mention non-corrosive.

The stuff I'm worried about is GP-11 Swiss. THAT is hard to replace.

August 7, 2007, 04:27 PM
The government isn't "banning" x54r the BATF simply isn't approving any form 6s for the importation of ANY milsurplus ammo period nor are they approving any form 6s for the importation of any military small arms or large lots of parts for military small arms.......... no ban needed, the BATF doesn't answer to voters, the last shipment that got an approved form 6 was Century arms 8 months ago on 5.45x39 60 million rnds it got here 5 months ago and the previously approved form6 got canceled so the had to "abandon" the shipment to US Customs

but nope the government isn't targeting or "banning" anything ya can still buy all the commercial ammo ya want ya just can't get a form 6 approved to import any military surplus ammo, parts sets etc... commercial sporting stuff only

However since they did fail to "tax" ammo and components such as powder/primers outa the reach of sport shooters by going through OSHA last month I am looking for em to try an end run through the Department of homeland security to either severally raise commercial ammo/component prices to limit how much gets into the hands of American shooters they have already figured out that putting gun related issues before the voters doesn't work so now they are utilizing government agencies that don't answer to the voters at all to accomplish the same thing...

Once AMMO is scarce for the average shooter they figure the guns will have little value and then it''ll be easier to go after the guns themselves............. naw didn't think it up on my own as an importer I find it very helpful to spend some time hangin out with the Anti's listenin to theire ideas......... many of their forums were all upset over the Osha deal gettin tossed but they've bounced right back and are looking at the Department of Homland security as a better venue to shut down ammo availability, tryin to slip a TAX in under radar is another big option, they figure to try to do the same thing with ammo and sport shooters thats worked so well to get folks to quit smoking go after the wallet via taxes for instance a TAX to let sport shooters help pay for the medical costs of persons injured by guns in drive by shootings etc....

So wht ya gonna do when that non-corrosive commercial ammo costs ya $45 per 20 rnds Cosmoline? Anyone??

August 7, 2007, 04:27 PM
Check out wideners.com, they have Barnaul in stock... lots of it, well they did last night, I grabbed 500 rounds of .223. Shipping was under $20...

Harley Quinn
August 7, 2007, 04:33 PM
7.62X54r ammo drying up?

When I first saw this :what: I thought as in dry and not shooting right. :D

I am not sure myself, I don't shoot it.

Here is a list of the ones you might try:


August 7, 2007, 05:03 PM
The government isn't "banning" x54r the BATF simply isn't approving any form 6s for the importation of ANY milsurplus ammo period nor are they approving any form 6s for the importation of any military small arms or large lots of parts for military small arms.......... no ban needed, the BATF doesn't answer to voters, the last shipment that got an approved form 6 was Century arms 8 months ago on 5.45x39 60 million rnds it got here 5 months ago and the previously approved form6 got canceled so the had to "abandon" the shipment to US Customs

dstorm1911, do you have any other info on this, links, etc? I do not doubt it is true I would just like to find more info. There has been no new surplus anywhere the last few months so something like this must explain it. I can see the prices going up because the surplus is running out but it is hard to believe it has completely dried up this quickly.

August 7, 2007, 05:21 PM
MilSurp is about gone, regardless of caliber. In the case of 7.62 x 54 Russian, and 7.62 NATO, its partially because no one issues rifles to their troops for these cartridges. yes, they are used in specialty weapons and MGs, but there are no huge surplus stocks anymore.
Another factor is the UNs efforts to stop the proliferation of small arms, and many countries like India and South Africa have signed the agreements. They now destroy, not sell their surplus, if they have any.
Wolf and other commercial companies can step in, and sell new production, commercial ammo, and thats probably where most of the new ammo in those calibers will come from.
It will be a LOT more expensive than milsurp was.

I fear if you are planning to 'stock up' for a rainy day, its probably too late.

August 7, 2007, 05:23 PM
000Buck nope just the importer grapevine we all keep gettin our form 6s denied, ya can go through the variouse websites or call and talk to reps if they know ya they'll be pretty honest bout the empty warehouses, I can tell ya were all the ammo is if ya wanna get your own importer license and get a bank to extend ya a line of credit.... I've got letter after letter inviting us to bid on ammo lots all over Europe and we as well as everyone else has tried but....... nothing getting approved through the BATF 2 weeks ago we even got a form6 denied for Russian olympic .22 cal target pistols 27 of them the reason on the denied form6 "has no sporting purpose" uhhhhhhhhhh yea Olympic target pistols have no sporting purpose...... like ya know maybe target shooting?????

Right now if ya have an importers license ya would have the following available


42 million rnds Yugo non-steel core brass cased 7.62x39

85 million rnds Romanian 7.92x57 at Pyrochim arsenal (all Romanian weapons are now NATO caliber so no need for any of the german/russian caliber ammo) Century did get 25 million rnds of this in but then no more form 6s approved to get the rest.

125 MILLION rnds of Czech Silver tip 7.62x54r sitting in Prague still up for sale

In the U.K Is several containers totaling 63 million rnds of S/A 7.62x51 but it is tagged must be de-militerized in otherwords broken down for components only but at .03 cents a round....... not bad

In Hungary they still got 80+ million rnds of 7.62x54r available as well as non-steel core 7.62x39 (no quantity listed)

There are others but my wrist is trashed and its too much typing...... get the BATF to approve a form6 and with that line of credit ya can have ALOTA friends ;) If ya really want to see intresting go hang out on some of the Anti's web sites they got many more ideas on how to restrict guns/ammo without involving the voters

August 7, 2007, 05:59 PM
Dstorm, thanks for the post. Which anti-2nd amendment forums do you mean? I'd like to have a look.

Harley Quinn
August 7, 2007, 06:02 PM
Sounds like something that could be a money maker, if you have the money that is;) And the connections:rolleyes:


August 7, 2007, 08:10 PM
dstorm1911, thanks for that answer, it is very interesting and disturbing at the same time! Time to buy some more 5.45x39 from Century I think, it might be the absolute last cheap ammo ever.

August 7, 2007, 08:27 PM
harley...... and could get the BATF to clear ya a form 6............ Century has even been against the wall on that issue

Geojap, ya gotta set up accounts pretty much all of em operate the old e-mail news group style, its their way of verifying who ya are as opposed to running on public forums etc... ya'll needa participate in a few (without giving up that your pro-gun for gawds sake) to get listed on more and more newsgroup lists as everything is CC'd to members etc... now why they gotta be worried bout bein so secretive .....................

here are a few starting points

PAX, this ones REALLY good one, they are the ones with all the ideas bout taxing us outa guns etc... ya'll get some of it reading the public stuff but get on the e-mail lists and ya'll start gettin really good info just don't ever act pro-gun or your done they won't confront you they simply won't forward anything to ya etc... I've been burned twice by em very careful now huntin sneaky liberals ;)


here is another thats a lil less paranoid ;) but ya still gotta get on e-mailing list to get the better stuff etc... they also list most all pro-gun forums to make it easier for their members to Troll us etc...


Again ya will need to setup an e-mail account but here alot of mis-information etc... Million moms march....... guns are killin their kids by the thousands... again get on the e-mail lists


that'll get ya started, IF ya happen to spot my writing style keep your fingers quiet ;) have fun

August 7, 2007, 08:52 PM
VPC is a nasty group of misinformation. I'm aware of them already. Thanks for all the info, DStorm.

August 7, 2007, 08:58 PM
I'm curious, does the Form6 apply to surplus, old ammo only? Or does it apply to all new imported ammo like Wolf, Brown Bear, Barnaul, etc?

August 8, 2007, 05:04 AM
while I have a couple 880 rd cases of the Hungarian stuff here i just ordered another from grafs for 12cents a round shipped. I may ordered a couple more.
just in case.

August 8, 2007, 07:40 AM
Are they really stopping the import of all surplus ammo? If this is true the value of most Mosins and Mausers will drop like a rock, because unlike a good swedish mauser or k31, they aren't worth shooting (especially the mosins) without the cheap ammo.

Boy, those 22lr rifles are really going to come back into style!

August 8, 2007, 09:36 AM
Form 6 is required to import anything related to firearms or ammo, the thing is they can't really justify not approving a form 6 for new commercial ammo, at least not for the moment. heres the link if ya wanna study up on the importation laws, thats why everyone who just blows off the lack of surplus ammo with "well I don't like corrosive anyway" or other such nonsense has their head in the sand cause all the stuff they are planning to rely on ie; privi partisan, wolf etc... it all is controled via a form 6 as well it just hasn't been gone after yet..... the ONLY source for ammo the BATF can't hit is either that ya load yourself or what is manufactured domestically, so now look at your ammo sources Without including any imported ammo not just surplus think in terms of anything imported being severally taxed or elliminated then what are your options left... and keep in mind the ATF only answers to the president............


click on the ATF guidebook link its a PDF file

August 8, 2007, 09:46 AM
Why can't we write some letters to congressmen who are 2nd Ammendment friendly to have something done?


(And before folks start a stupid debate on government, it does work. IF you all recall what happened with the recent OSHA mess).

August 8, 2007, 10:41 AM
What are they going to do? The BATF isn't "banning" all ammo importation just the cheap Military surplus stuff which all they have to do is say it is MILITARY not sporting ammo.......... as long as they allow the importation of commercial "sporting" ammo everyones hands are tied under the guise that our second amendment rights only pertains to arms for "sporting" purposes we already lost that fight when those same congressmen saw no problem with the ban on "non-sporting" weapons, see as soon as the term "sporting" was allowed into the conversation we lost. That one word cancels out our right to anything "military" in the way of arms or ammo :( thats what happens when ya decide like the NRA that its o.k to compromise.......... its not o.k if ya want to write letters start slamming the NRA with letters asking just what else we are going to compromise away next......... but they did build a nice 4 million dollar meuseum to show are grandkids what we used to be allowed to own....... too bad they didn't use that 4 million to protect what we DO OWN huh? They lost all support from me with that lil investment I haven't paid into em 25 years so they could build a meuseum I'll probably never visit anyway........

The game plan for the Anti's is really simple look at the cig smokers way of how to accomplish it as thats really easy to see and directly crosses over to the ellimination of guns, its a long term plan not a slam it through and lets confiscate everything right now plan... its based on compromises and getting folks willing to accept compromises

They use the distraction with the left hand such as proposed bills to get everyones attention like banning ALL non sporting calibers (an example only) so everyone in the milsurp community is up in arms and writing letters etc... in the meanwhile the real "ban" is already being enacted in the form of gettin rid of "MILITARY" surplus cheap ammo, well ya got everyone busy writin letters etc... nobody notices the lack of surplus ammo and when it comes up folks like above just say "well I don't care for corrosive ammo anyhow so no biggie" the proposed bill to ban non-sporting calibers gets defeated and everyone breaths easier they won.............. uhhh hey where is all the surplus ammo? My Mosins and mausers aren't worth shooting without the cheap ammo etc... well next they'll keep working to run the price up on the commercial ammo via taxes, higher costs to the dealer in the form of regulations that require better storage etc... all these costs get passed to the consumer and now those military rifles are seeing little if any use so..... lets try to pass a bill to attack military based "sporters" everyone is up in arms again and writing letters only thing is....... there aren't so many letters this time cause well...... a large number of people have given up shooting their milsurp rifles due to the cost of ammo so...... most aren't even bothering to log into Surplus rifles as they got no reason too........ the ammo is so expensive they'v switched hobbies and are all now hanging out on the HO Scale train collector forum........ well now we got a new law passed banning all military based sporters so the few remaining milsurp owners and those who may have switched focus to train collecting so never got the word are all outlaws if they don't get rid of their military based sporters......... many will start digging holes but most will do just like in Canada and Austrailia and start turnin in the guns they don't have ammo to shoot anyway..........

Next they will take aim at the hunting community in the form of "acceptable" governing of semi auto based rifles and shotguns (ya will have already have lost a huge contingent to model train collecting while getting rid of military based sporters) now most of these hunters only get the guns out once or twice a year anyhow and well....... not nearly as many hangin out on the internet and the NRA is busy building meuseums and working out compromises so they are going to tell the hunters "o.k guys we can accept this compromise because they gave us CCW will issue for DC that is a huge win and we really don't need semi auto rifles to hunt anyhow so be happy" and the hunters will be happy cause now the folks in DC have Shall issue CCW rights ........ until the Anitgun crowd says well lets just totally outlaw hunting with anything but single shot long guns and we outa add a rider autlawing the use of revolvers or semi auto handguns as well........ everyone who is left is up in arms and writin letters.... all 600 or 700 of em write theire congressmen etc... and they defeat it mostly only giving up the revolvers and semi auto pistols etc... well now the ANTIs have a valid argument to do away with handguns period as since they are not legal to hunt with they clearly have no sporting purpose and only exist to kill people......... but ya still got your Shall issue CCW permits so life good huh...... ya can carry your 2 shot derringer concealed all ya want until................

So yea we can accept compromises can't we?? if ya wanna write letters then start with the folks that are supposed to be spending the dollars given to them to DEFEND our second amendment NOT building meuseums to REMEMBER our second amendment rights........... cause as long as we accept compromises ESPECIALLY in trade for CCW as a gain the closer we get to zero guns in the USA the next time someone tells ya well we really didn't need to win that and in fact we came away with a CCW law for Washington in trade so its good......... ask em just what kinda gun will that CCW holder be gettin to carry in 5 years? Where will he/she get to practice with it at and how much is the ammo going to cost to practice because ya see with no place to shoot and high priced ammo the CCW holders will got the same way of the milsurp collector 10 years earlier.......

or ya can figure its no big lose by not having cheap corrosive military surplus ammo........... that thinking is exactly the kind of attitude the Antis are looking for ya to develope....... its called conditioned tolerance and it leads to further willingness to give up

August 8, 2007, 11:58 AM
It's disheartening that this surplus ammo import ban was allowed to happen under almost 8 yrs of a republican administration. It scares me to think what will happen down the road.

August 8, 2007, 01:13 PM
Wow dstorm1911, I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Seriously, you have got it down and I thought I knew what was going on, but you nailed it perfectly. I bet less than 1% of people who own Mosins and Mausers know this form 6 denial is going on, I didnt. I appreciate the info. Sadly though most people wouldnt care, just like you said.

August 8, 2007, 02:06 PM
The BATF sporting vs non-sporting seems like such a diversion. The debate itself gives the false notion that the 2nd Amendment is sporting based. As if the constitutional framers wanted to enshrine our right to nail a nice buck this season.

The Luby's shooting survivor testifying in front of Chuck Shumer et al. that the 2nd amendment wasn't to protect the right to duck hunt, but to prevent goverment tyranny hits the nail on the head. The last 30 seconds gives me goosebumps.


Dstorm1911, is there a list of BATF sporting requirements that the ammunition must meet to be deemed "sporting" or is it arbitrary? I wonder if the surplus ammo could just be purchased in Europe, repacked with "sporting ammo" on the box and exported to the U.S.?

August 8, 2007, 03:08 PM
I always figured they would ban ammo before firearms and label the components as explosives and require special handling, licenses and fees... seems like that is what they are doing.

.gov loves to pit firearms owners VS non firearms owners, that way we get up at each others throats, that way they can focus on the real meat & potatoes of getting things in motion in the background to eventually ban stuff.

August 8, 2007, 03:22 PM
Well, I just got off the phone with Eric at AIM. He said he did not know of any of this, and that he knew of several shipments of 7.62x54r that were already in process and that he was waiting on. He contributed the current short situation to higher prices overseas and disinterest in current USA distributors to pay those prices. He said there was plenty of 54r left overseas.

I know Eric is not the end-all, be-all of everything in the surplus world, but I've been doing business with him for 8 years now and I've always known him to be among the very best in the business, along with people like Dan from Dan's Ammo. I'm just trying to make some sense out of this as it affects my near-future purchases greatly.

August 8, 2007, 04:50 PM
Geojap, ask Eric WHO imported the x54r (aim is not an importer only a dealer) cause it would have to have been imported by one of 7 major importers and so far all 7 are dead in the water.... dealers do not want the lack of ammo to be highlighted...... how many guns are ya gonna buy from AIM if Eric tells ya.... well as a matter of fact we haven't got a chance in hell of gettin ya any cheap surplus ammo in" he'd lose his job at the drop of a hat...... I get angry e-mails everyday from other importers but ya know what..... I don't care should we all keep our heads in the sand untill its too late just so we can get the very last milsurp rifle sold????

The deffinition of "sporting" is that its a newly manufactured product that has never been issued as a military weapon or ammunition. Several tried the repackaging thing in the 80s most notably Norinco but the ammo still has the same military headstamp so... thats why companies now as an example the .308 SA ammo, the company that buys it will have to ship it to an approved facility to be dismantled and then the components other than the military cases can be reused... this is where your surplus powders and bullets for reloading come from, much of your commercial military calibers from Europe are loaded with recycled powders etc...

here are a few old links for some light reading, none of this is new its all been in the works for a few years now, its just been kept shaded from end users (if folks know ammo is getting scarce or may become totally unavailable then as mentioned above how many guns will dealers sell? they could get stuck with inventories from hundreds to thousands or have to sell em at a huge loss etc... anyhow ya'll have probably already seen some of this if so just skip to the next link some are duplicates only in so as to provide multiple sources etc..




This one should describe the issue bout ammo must be dismantled etc.. from South Africa, a dealer slipped some into the USA a year ago right under this aggreement and there was hell to pay over it, Century got some and Classic arms got some etc..






thats a start for ya'll, that was just from one search using "UN and small arms" most of it I'd already read when it was fresh there are thousands more documents ya just gotta be creative bout your searches

August 8, 2007, 04:53 PM
it affects my near-future purchases greatly.

if this situation is true then it doesnt only affect our near future purchases, it will affect our lives. Why are they trying to take our guns? Look at every government that has disarmed its people in the 20th century and I think youll see the reason.

If this turns out to be true, I think we all need to consider what is important in our lives and then make a decision...

August 8, 2007, 07:22 PM
Well, I'll wait and see. I hope for everyone's sake they continue to let surplus in. $1-2 for a round of ammo for range target practice would be unbearable.

I was planning on buying a lot of ammo anyway in a few calibers that I didn't have enough to be comfortable in the long term. This will just make me speed the process up by a few weeks. I saw several calibers' prices skyrocket, or else they disappeared all together (308, 7.5x55, Wolf 7.62x54, 6.5x55). I didn't want to get caught without enough ammo in some other calibers that are still available relatively cheaply. I want to be able to go target shoot at the range for many years and not worry about running out of decent ammo to shoot.

August 8, 2007, 07:41 PM
Darrel, Since you are in the know (probably more than any other of us here). What do us laymen do about this? Will a letter to our senator help? Do we write the NRA? If theres no surplus then, like you say, why buy a MN at all. Is that why Centerfire sys has the mosins so cheap? I gotta gun show this weekend so i'll try to pick up any cheap 54r, but if thats the end of surplus then I think my next rifle is going to be a hi-point 9mm carbine......

August 8, 2007, 07:49 PM
Geojap, last year after we inventoried everything I sat down and figured the average number of rnds I fire per week in each caliber (Remember I'm shooting on a daily basis, for others it might be a per month calculation) I then looked at how much surplus ammo and how much reloaded ammo was currently in the ammo vault and came to the prediction that I can get by for 15 years without buying any ammo, my most heavily used caliber is 7.62x39 followed by 7.62x51 then 7.62x54r the rest are occasionaly added for a shooting session but those are always present on the bench etc.. I bought 3 dillon 1250 commercial loading machines a few years ago and have them setup so I can load for every military caliber with just a 30 minute setup time to switch calibers per machine also got a huge assortment of smaller progressive, turret and Rock crushers on hand so the next step was to inventory components powders and primers first on the list as I cast my own bullets for each caliber (when it comes to bullet casting and reloading look at buying out estates its much cheaper in the long run and the previous owner already did all the hard work for you) I have literally 9,000 lbs of lead plates sitting in the back of my truck yard on an old flat bed trailer (living in a state littered with copper mines is a big plus) For the last year I've focused on buyin up kegs of powder we won't get into how much is available but...... I don't need to buy anymore so now I'm focusing on accumulating brass for all the assorted calibers thats the weak link now I have literally hundreds of pounds of 30/06 brass simply because in a pinch I can turn it into brass for several different calibers like 8 mm mauser, 7.62x51 as well as many more but the oddballs like 7.5x55 or 7.5x54r french 8x56r Styer etc... these are my current focus right now as I'm not going to rely on the surplus stockpiles alone, I try to reload to replace the surplus I shoot each month so that the inventory stays consistant as long as We don't get over run by hordes of blue hatted Zombies or other such mindless vermin ;)

August 8, 2007, 08:08 PM
Ratfood, the cheap surplus is whats being targeted, I don't think writing senators will do much good as there aren't really that many jobs at stake in the Surplus industry (that would be the best argument rather than "I can't go blow stuff up without tons of cheap ammo" they'd just file 13 your letter) The NRA is already tellin their members that "compromise" is a good thing and we shouldn't be upset about it BTW if ya could sent your tax return we could add an annex to our meuseum etc..... I'm thinking we needa look for another angle what that is going to be is going to depend on how many folks understand that the focus of pressure has to be directed at the BATF and I'm suspecting the good ol Department of Homeland Security is going to be a major venue for the ANTIs to exploit, they already tried to sneak buggin our phones in under the guise of a need to protect against terrorism while at the same time our border patrol are being forbidden from patrolling particular very high traffic routs through Arizona (got ALOTA friends at the patrol level here in the Tucson Area) one of the reasons I felt it was important to give folks the info now is to see if we can come up with some practical and realistic ideas to get the Government to rein in the BATF but thats the trick cause the current president can't be re-elected so he has nothing to gain by listening to American voters and he is the only one who can get to the director of the BATF so thats a dead end but what if we figure out where to focus efforts to make it very clear that we obviously are not under any threat of terrorism as the government is doin all it can to disarm American citizens so maybe as voters we need to start voteing against ANY funding for those agencies such as the DHS and Border patrol etc... look at the beurocracies that are eating up tax dollars and make it very clear that if we don't need anything but "sporting" arms and ammunition then we also don't need to be wasting tax dollars on the military etc..... hit em where they live........ make it clear that while ya can't affect the BATF as a voter ya CAN get the governments attention in other areas............. in other words play the same game they are playing of an indirect assault to get those who can get at the BATF to take action if not to protect our rights then to protect their own pet beurocracies etc... just an idea............. but as they are useing a non-voter agency to mess with us ie; an indirect end run around the 2nd amendment then we need to take up the same strategy ourselves

August 8, 2007, 11:00 PM
Well If Bill's Main Squeese gets in the big playground we can kinda kiss the 2nd admendment goodbye:(

White Horseradish
August 8, 2007, 11:46 PM
Well If Bill's Main Squeese gets in the big playground we can kinda kiss the 2nd admendment goodbyeThe situation we are currently discussing is happening at the end of two terms of Republican presidency. Excuse me if I don't see them as a shining ray of hope. They don't appear to be any different from her in this respect.

August 9, 2007, 12:21 AM
Neither Dems or Reps give a tinker's dam about anything associated with the 2nd. Those in office are all interested in money and power. Most of us have precious little of both, and without both, we cannot influence this pack of @&%$(*&%. Since we can't influence them, we have only one last resort...we need to clean house! Find a good independent and vote your mind.

I heard one of the political fools talking recently (6 months ago) about going after the ammunition and regretting how they had ignored it in the past. In effect, he stated, if there isn't any ammo, the gun isn't much use. I wish I could recall the name of the fool of stated that! But, they are correct. What good is a firearm with no ammunition?

Here's the other tactic: Extended shooting restrictions in Utah County, Utah. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3617165#post3617165

Thank-you for the information in this thread gentlemen! This is some extremely interesting reading.


August 9, 2007, 01:22 AM
I was at fleet farm the other day and they had a few cans sitting on the shelf. Can't remember the price I will have to go back and check it out.

August 9, 2007, 07:45 AM
Teddy Kennedy is the ammo banner.

But also remember something else at the end of this Republican administration. The AWB expired. Introduced, passed, and signed by Democrats. Sunsetted by Republicans.

I very seriously doubt Bush has anything to do with this ammo import bans. The biggest mistake he did was to allow Clinton-era appointees to remain at their posts. These fellows have been causing all sorts of grief to gun owners.

Of course, if Rudy gets in, his little 20% disagreement with us will hurt as bad as Hillary's.


August 9, 2007, 08:35 AM
Well If Bill's Main Squeese gets in the big playground we can kinda kiss the 2nd admendment goodbye

I doubt we'll ever see Bill's MAIN squeeze on camera. :neener:

August 9, 2007, 10:00 AM
Ash, for the BATF to suddenly start rejecting form6s like they have been the last 8 months pretty much required a phone call or a luncheon with the president and the director and a comment such as "ya know terrorist can get easy acess to all this cheap surplus ammo, voters will hang me if we put it before a vote so why don't you just send out a memo that all this cheap surplus isn't going to be comming in" something like that as the director would get his a$$ fired otherwise, they are getting letters from importers complaining so the White house is aware of the situation but.... not enough jobs in the surplus industry are being effected so........ and importers and dealers can't scream too laud less they get stuck with tons of guns they can't move etc.. the perfect victim...... mute

Myself I'm hopeing that by bringing it to public attention the BATF will back off as ya know its a perfect example of why there should be absolutally no government agency that is not directly answerable to the people via a vote etc.. if people look at such agencies and beuracrocies for what they really are and start working to cut all funding to them then we might inch our way back up outa this hole.... but if folks don't know then they can't act....

Mikee Loxxer
August 9, 2007, 10:50 AM

Are you sure about being able to form 30'06 cases into 7.5X55 Swiss and 7.5 MAS? They are have larger case head diameters than 30'06.

Just a note. 7.5 MAS is not a rimmed cartridge. Its designation is 7.5 X 54 not 7.5 X54R.

Harley Quinn
August 9, 2007, 11:10 AM
Are we talking head, neck, or base? Regarding the case?


August 9, 2007, 11:32 AM
I have literally hundreds of pounds of 30/06 brass simply because in a pinch I can turn it into brass for several different calibers like 8 mm mauser, 7.62x51 as well as many more but the oddballs like 7.5x55 or 7.5x54r french 8x56r Styer etc.
That "but" is what you missed. He states that the oddball sizes can't use the brass. 8x56r Steyr is rimmed, that should tip you off. Thought 7.62x54r can be formed to 8x56r if no commercial brass can be had.

Mikee Loxxer
August 9, 2007, 02:08 PM

That would be the case head. The diameter of the case head in both 7.5 X55 Swiss and 7.5 MAS is larger than that of 30'06. Thats why you need to use a different size(wider) shell holder when reloading for 7.5 X55 of 7.5 MAS.

August 10, 2007, 12:55 AM
As kunfuhippie already pointed out........ ya CAN'T form 30/06 into those calibers ya can form .284 Winchester brass into 7.5x55 swiss and I'm working on an American case that can be reformed for 7.5x54 french as the MAS 36 is one of my favorites to plink with if the Mas 36 had been Made in the USA, Russia, china, or Mexico it woulda been perfect ;) but one advantage of the french manufacture......... at least they usually dropped em gently while surrendering LOL

August 10, 2007, 12:30 PM

Anyway, back on topic. Do any of you guys know who still has 54r is stock? My list of usual places is not panning out for me. I would like to pick up another 800-1200 rds. I have had good luck with Czech silver tip, although the sticky bolt problem is prevalent with it. Bulgarian heavy is ok for accuracy too, kicks a bit harder.


August 10, 2007, 01:14 PM

August 10, 2007, 04:04 PM
Just ordered 600 rounds from J&G for $124. Best deal I could find. Corrosive.

August 10, 2007, 04:17 PM

After much searching, the only current supply of surplus I found was SOG.
250 rd tins @$39.95 plus s/h.

August 10, 2007, 04:41 PM
VPC is a nasty group of misinformation. I'm aware of them already. Thanks for all the info, DStorm.

Browsed their site.... haven't seen that much spin since my last frisbee golf tournament.

August 10, 2007, 05:05 PM
when I called grafs the other day they had plenty of light ball.

I got 880 rounds for 108 shipped with c&R Discount.

chestnut ridge
August 10, 2007, 05:56 PM
there is a small quantity of the 7N1 ammo at outdoor marksman.
I found it at www.buyammo.com
the price was $250 per 880 round case. This is much cheaper
than most sellers. You can research this ammo; as it is reported
to be among the most accurate 7.62x54R. This is more expensive
than the 10 cents per shot we are used to; but when you care to
send the very best...

August 10, 2007, 07:47 PM
Well, I just got my 1750 rounds from SoG. That was really quick. The ammo is in really nice condition. It is sealed in tins, 10 rounds wrapped in paper and has a really nice brass case. All are on really nice stripper clips. No rust or any corrosion. The head stamp has a star in the 12 o'clock position, a "10" at 3 o'clock, a "53" at 6 o'clock, and a "3" at 9 o'clock. So it is Bulgarian and made in 1953. I'm not sure what the "3" signifies. I can post pics of it if anyone wants to see it. It's some of the nicer surplus ammo that I've seen, but I guess if the seal kept tight for all those years that it should be in very good condition.

The Deer Hunter
August 10, 2007, 08:00 PM
I cant find the x54R at SOG. Can anyone help me?

August 10, 2007, 08:06 PM
I don't think it's on the website. Call them.

August 10, 2007, 08:29 PM
Still plenty available around DFW, Texas. I stocked 6000-7000 rounds some time ago. I have a ROMAK III so I have to use light ball. And I need to buy a gas adjuster for the SVT-40, it doesn't cycle well with the light ball. I know people afraid to get an SVT because of fear of corrosive primers. It IS difficult to fully disassemble an SVT, however, it is very easy to clean the gas system. I like the Czech light ball the best and it seems to work well. It has gone up in price about $20 for 800 rounds. To tell the truth, I bought a ROMAK III specifically because of the cheap 7.62 x 54R. I became concerned about future availability of surplus ammunition. With a total of around $1500, and three months time, i had a rifle and 5000 rounds of ammunition. All I still need is a few hundred rounds of tracer.

August 28, 2007, 12:21 PM
I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks and thought I'd try a little experiment.

I went over to Centerfire and found that they're advertising a good price on 91-30s, but they didn't have any surplus 7.62x54R on their website. So I sent an email telling them that I'm interested in the 91-30 but they didn't have any ammunition to go with it. What would be the sense in buying a rifle if there was no ammunition available for it? That would be plain stupid, wouldn't it? Since they didn't have any milsurp ammon listed I asked if they're getting anymore in stock, if so when and how much?

I received a reply fairly quickly that I was wrong, they did have 7.62 in stock, lots of it, what kind and how much did I want? I replied that I'd like to have a quote on a case and gave them my zip code. Got another email real quick after that saying that there was a mistake and that they had sold out of every bit of 7.62 just that morning. Sorry 'bout that. No further details concerning restocking or prices.

Wonder how long it's going to be before dealers/importers realize that we realize there's an acute shortage of ammunition and rifles will begin to gather dust in their warehouses?

August 28, 2007, 07:25 PM

Good work, mickmten. Give 'em Hell!

August 28, 2007, 09:48 PM
All hope is lost. AIMsurplus 440rd Hungarian......

Two months ago: 44.95
Today it is back in stock: 79.95

AIMsurplus seems to be "fairest" of all...meaning they seem to price their ammo to sell quickly so they can move sell lots of it, so this is bad news indeed. Only Century has prices that are as good as AIMs typically.

August 28, 2007, 10:36 PM
Thank god, I have 6 un-opened tins + about 1600 loose rounds. (polish, hungarian, bulgarian)

1st rule of milsurp ammo. Get it while you can cause it will be gone tomorrow.

August 28, 2007, 11:23 PM
Wonder how long it's going to be before dealers/importers realize that we realize there's an acute shortage of ammunition and rifles will begin to gather dust in their warehouses?

You can't really put any blame on the importers for the current shortage of milsurp ammo. They would love (really love) to sell you a gazillion cases of it. But if the gov't won't process/approve any of the federal forms needed for the ammo's importation, there's not much they can do except continue to press for approval of the import. I'm sure there's still tons upon tons of this ammo sitting in bunkers and caves somewhere. It's not that there's none out there, it's just that the gov't does'nt want you to have any large quanities of cheap, powerful ammo. :scrutiny:
On the upside (if you load) is that those cheap Mosins might be getting a lot cheaper.

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