Interesting news from Belgium


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barman
August 7, 2007, 04:24 PM
Some good news for the Belgians!

Belgium, which used to be the most anti-gun country in the world, has just passed a law allowing the free ownership (without registration of any kind) of a certain number of Historical handguns and rifles.

Among them:

-The first C96s
-Lugers in 7.65 parabellum
-Russian Nagants
-Webleys in .455
-Lebel 1892 in 8mm
-Colt 1873 SAA in various calibers.

and lots of others!!!

link (in French and Dutch, the 2 official languages of Belgium): http://www.unact.be/fr/pdf/BS02082007.pdf



Gun control doesn't always go in the wrong direction! Let's hope it's the beginning of a new trend towards sanity!

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Odd Job
August 7, 2007, 04:31 PM
Are there any changes that will affect visitors?
I want to hop on the Eurostar and spend a few days in Brussels. It would be great if I could do some target shooting too (pistols mainly).

ArfinGreebly
August 7, 2007, 04:33 PM
-Lugers in 7.65 parabellum
Ooh! Ooh!

Quick!

We need to pass some historical handgun laws!

Applies to replicas, too, right? :evil:

Yeah, gotta apply to replicas.

Now, if we can just get Federal and Remington and Winchester to do production runs of 7.65 para, we'll be all set.

fletcher
August 7, 2007, 04:35 PM
This is interesting news. Hopefully they'll realize that allowing ownership of guns won't make crime go out of control, and allow more.

Kilgor
August 7, 2007, 04:38 PM
Good for them! Surely they could include the old antique 1911 in there...

barman
August 7, 2007, 04:55 PM
Are there any changes that will affect visitors?
I want to hop on the Eurostar and spend a few days in Brussels. It would be great if I could do some target shooting too (pistols mainly).

I think so.
As a Brit you are officially a European citizen, so you are granted the same rights when in Belgium (except voting I guess).

But I can't be definite about it. It Would be great if a Belgian poster could answer you on that one.

barman
August 7, 2007, 05:00 PM
Surely they could include the old antique 1911 in there...

Yes they should.

While looking at the list, I saw that a Russian version of the 1911 was allowed, chambered in a weird caliber:

Russia + USSR Colt 1911 (British mod.) 11,2 x 23 cal.


???? What's that ???

MD_Willington
August 7, 2007, 05:05 PM
As a Brit you are officially a European citizen, so you are granted the same rights.


Seriously! Wow better update my UK Passport...

scubie02
August 7, 2007, 05:12 PM
man, if there were ANY country you'd think would be pro-gun, given their historic position of being viewed as little more than a highway on the way to invading other important countries by certain entities, you'd think it'd be Belgium...

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 05:13 PM
Yes they should.

While looking at the list, I saw that a Russian version of the 1911 was allowed, chambered in a weird caliber:

Russia + USSR Colt 1911 (British mod.) 11,2 x 23 cal.


???? What's that ???
.45 ACP. (metric).?

Nomad101bc
August 7, 2007, 05:17 PM
How can belgium be so anti gun when thewy produce so many cool firearms. P-90 and its entire family, FAL's, FN's, lol yet thier citizens cant even own one tisk tisk. I hope the entire EU gets a wake up call and lets its subjects enjoy the rights of citizens.

barman
August 7, 2007, 05:18 PM
45 ACP. (metric).?

You could be right.
I'm bad at converting that kind of stuff.

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 05:19 PM
I thought Belgium was quite allowing for gun ownership until the early 90's?
I looked through that list...
Mosin-Nagants are OK. So are Nagant revolvers. And a bunch of other quite lethal weaponry. Most of it mil-surp. Guess you guys (in the US) are getting some competition now for the mil-surps :evil:

OMG! AG42 Ljungmanns are on the list!

geekWithA.45
August 7, 2007, 05:26 PM
What are they, nuts!

There will be blood on the streets!

They'd best brace for a crime tsunami, as criminals start knocking over liquor stores with their mosins.

:neener:

barman
August 7, 2007, 05:37 PM
I hope the entire EU gets a wake up call and lets its subjects enjoy the rights of citizens.

As I'm sure you know, the European parliament is in both Strasbourg and Brussels. Brussels sets the trends for the whole EU.

That would be great. A small step toward more freedom, with the USA as a model (I'm really dreaming, but who knows).

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 05:52 PM
barman: I thought you guys could buy a whole bunch of weaponry without to much hazzle? Licensing for shotguns and manually repeting rifles seems to be a mere formality? Am I correct?
Also, aren't black powder guns freely available as well to you?

Dave Markowitz
August 7, 2007, 05:54 PM
Congrats Belgium. I'll eat some waffles to celebrate. ;)

barman
August 7, 2007, 06:11 PM
barman: I thought you guys could buy a whole bunch of weaponry without to much hazzle? Licensing for shotguns and manually repeting rifles seems to be a mere formality? Am I correct?
Also, aren't black powder guns freely available as well to you?


Guns laws are fairly relaxed in France.
You're right, black powder guns are freely available and licences for most smokeless guns are just a formality, but you need to be either a hunter or a sports shooter.
I was just wishing it to be the same for the whole of the European Union.

brighamr
August 7, 2007, 06:18 PM
I'm looking forward to crime statistics vs amount of weapons legally bought into Belgium, over the next few years. Yet another stat to prove the anti's wrong.

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 06:21 PM
Same here. Heck, I'd be dancing around like crazy if I could get just a new black powder revolver without needing a license for it...I don't REALLY care about tacticool. I'm not very interested in competetition. I just want something to kill beer cans with :(.
Question: Is it only reproduction black powder weapons that are freely available, or can you buy the modern looking rifles/pistol/shotguns as well? How about the small NAA BP revolvers? Are there any regulations on black powder/pyrodex?

Odd Job
August 7, 2007, 06:25 PM
I tell you what, I smell a weekend of fries and mayonnaise, waffles and pistols coming up :)

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 06:27 PM
Oddjob: Same here. I've got almost two weeks of vacation left...might go down to check things out :)

barman
August 7, 2007, 06:30 PM
Is it only reproduction black powder weapons that are freely available, or can you buy the modern looking rifles/pistol/shotguns as well? How about the small NAA BP revolvers? Are there any regulations on black powder/pyrodex?


Regarding modern black powder designs, only muzzleloaders are free. No modern design BP cartridge guns.

I don't know what are the small NAA BP revolvers you are mentionning.

The regulation on black powder is that you are allowed to store (at home) 4 pounds of it per person. But if you have a wife and a kid, that makes it 12 pounds!
:neener:

yhtomit
August 7, 2007, 06:39 PM
Is it only reproduction black powder weapons that are freely available, or can you buy the modern looking rifles/pistol/shotguns as well? How about the small NAA BP revolvers? Are there any regulations on black powder/pyrodex?

Regarding modern black powder designs, only muzzleloaders are free. No modern design cartridge guns.

Barman: re. The Viking's question, I think he was talking about modern (polymer and stainless, ergonomic stocks etc) muzzle-loaders, or only "classic" looking reproductions. Here in Pennsylvania, the shops have a huge variety of modern muzzleloaders, because the law limits deer hunting to those, or at least provides a longer season to muzzle-loaders. (Someone from PA who actually hunts deer can probably clarify this.)

timothy

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 06:40 PM
I meant muzzle loaders that aren't reproductions of say a Kentucky rifle. There seems to be quite a few to pick from, like this http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/highresimage?saleitemid=676770
The revolvers I'm thinking about are these: http://www.naaminis.com/naac&b.html
muzzle loading, only pocket sized. Know about the legality of these?

yhtomit: Precisely what I was thinking about.

DoubleTapDrew
August 7, 2007, 06:41 PM
Cool!

Hopefully this is step 2:

http://www.fnherstal.com/images/MINIMI%20STD%207_62.jpg

:evil:

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 06:47 PM
DoubleTapDrew: I'm not sure I'd want one of those. I couldn't possibly hope to afford to feed it as much as I would want to :(

barman
August 7, 2007, 06:50 PM
Barman: re. The Viking's question, I think he was talking about modern (polymer and stainless, ergonomic stocks etc) muzzle-loaders, or only "classic" looking reproductions. Here in Pennsylvania, the shops have a huge variety of modern muzzleloaders, because the law limits deer hunting to those, or at least provides a longer season to muzzle-loaders. (Someone from PA who actually hunts deer can probably clarify this.)


I am almost positive that only classic reproductions are completly free, apart from a few exceptions which are declassified.

Most others require a 4th category licence which you get as a sports shooter (you need to suscribe to a club and deal with a little bit of paperwork)

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 06:54 PM
Is it legal to hunt with muzzle loading black powder rifles and shotguns?

230RN
August 7, 2007, 06:55 PM
I really hate these sneaky incremental one-step-at-a-time enrichments of freedoms.

barman
August 7, 2007, 06:56 PM
Is it legal to hunt with muzzle loading black powder rifles and shotguns?

Yes.

You can go hunting with an Uberti Colt Walker if you like. :D

barman
August 7, 2007, 06:58 PM
really hate these sneaky incremental one-step-at-a-time enrichments of freedoms

What's better?

NO guns?

Or some guns?

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 07:00 PM
Yes.

You can go hunting with an Uberti Colt Walker if you like. :D
OK. That is awesome in a way. I know its not legal here :(.

230RN: Me too. I want everything yesterday! :D :evil:

AntiqueCollector
August 7, 2007, 07:02 PM
Yeah some are better than none barman, but wouldn't you rather get all the freedom you want regarding guns, all at once? Imagine Europe becoming like Vermont or Alaska here in the U.S. in terms of gun laws overnight...well, I know that's not going to happen overnight in Europe, you'll have to put up with a little at a time...good luck with it! I must just be spoiled here in VT...

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 07:05 PM
Yeah some are better than none barman, but wouldn't you rather get all the freedom you want regarding guns, all at once? Imagine Europe becoming like Vermont or Alaska here in the U.S. in terms of gun laws overnight...well, I know that's not going to happen overnight in Europe, you'll have to put up with a little at a time...good luck with it! I must just be spoiled here in VT...
That would be awesome. I know some people would probably die of heart attacks if that happened :evil:.

barman
August 7, 2007, 07:07 PM
Yeah some are better than none barman, but wouldn't you rather get all the freedom you want regarding guns, all at once? Imagine Europe becoming like Vermont or Alaska here in the U.S. in terms of gun laws overnight...

Of course.

Let me tell you I'm as pro-gun as you can get (for an old world dude).
The situation in Europe is bad. But I'm optimistic, it pleases me to have an opportunity being happy about something gun-related over here.

barman
August 7, 2007, 07:09 PM
I know some people would probably die of heart attacks if that happened

Yeah, all the school teachers I had as a kid for example. :cool:

AntiqueCollector
August 7, 2007, 07:10 PM
That would be awesome. I know some people would probably die of heart attacks if that happened

I know someone here in VT who almost had a heart attack when I told her no permits/licenses are needed to carry, and that I was carrying...she is from New Jersey though so I wasn't too shocked at her reaction.;)

barman
August 7, 2007, 07:44 PM
I know someone here in VT who almost had a heart attack when I told her no permits/licenses are needed to carry, and that I was carrying...she is from New Jersey though so I wasn't too shocked at her reaction

I'm back from Fairbanks Alaska. Even I, as a foreigner, was allowed to wander in the wilderness with a shotgun on my shoulder. Truly inspiring.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/river_of_deceit/DSC00032-2.jpg

Now THAT's a place I'd like to permanently live in if I wasn't as patriotic and attached to my native land as I am.

Here's my father in law's flintlock rifle collection:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/river_of_deceit/DSC00011-1.jpg

Euclidean
August 7, 2007, 07:48 PM
This IS important. To admit, in any way, that so called "gun control" is futile and meaningless, is an important step.

matt87
August 7, 2007, 08:11 PM
:D nice link! I'm a little rusty on the translations, but it seems like Enfield .303s, Mauser K98ks and Winchester 1894s in.30-30 are allowed too :D

The Viking
August 7, 2007, 08:23 PM
matt87: aren't you britons allowed a bunch of rifles in obsolete (but not impossible to get) calibers without having a firearms license?

ArfinGreebly
August 7, 2007, 08:29 PM
I really hate these sneaky incremental one-step-at-a-time enrichments of freedoms.

Next thing you know, they'll be allowing unlicensed open carry.

Then unlicensed concealed carry.

My God, where will it all end?!

Nolo
August 7, 2007, 08:29 PM
Yes, the Europeans call .45 ACP 11.2x23mm. I don't know why, but they do. They're so obsessed with Metric. Imperial just makes so much more sense.
I mean do you have any body part that's a millimeter long? Seriously?
Inches: roughly knuckles
Feet: Duh!
Yard: Armspan (though meters are nearly identical)
It all works.

matt87
August 7, 2007, 09:34 PM
The Viking:

Yes, but the list is given out by the Home Office and is quite restrictive. Needless to say, any responsible dealer will not sell you ammo for them, and it would require a fair amount of knowledge, effort, money and skill to produce them or modify an obsolete-calibre gun to fire more readilly available ammo. More effort than it would take to get hold of, say, an illegal AK or MAC10 and a few mags plus ammo.

EDIT: the list is not a definitive one, and some interepretation is possible by customers and dealers. However, with a recent case in the news concerning a dealer sailing very close to the wind, I am sure that many dealers will be reluctant to deviate from it.

Rovi
August 8, 2007, 05:59 AM
A translate.google.com version (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unact.be%2Ffr%2Flaw.php&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8) of the page linking to this document comes up with:
These weapons are weapons on sale free. Their ammunition are subjected to authorization. If one uses his weapons to be drawn, they are classified in “weapons subjected to authorization”.
In this case, it is necessary to have an authorization of detention or licence of gunner, if these weapons are used in a sporting discipline recognized by the communities.

So, it looks like it's okay to own the guns, but ammunition and firing them requires 'authorization' of some sort. Which may or may not be a big deal.
Anyone from Belgium here able to clarify?

Erhard
August 10, 2007, 02:15 PM
Since august you can buy a lot of historical weapons in Belgium without any administration, BUT it is illegal to own any ammunition for these weapons or to shoot with them.

You need to complete a theoretical and practical test, register your weapons and be a member of a club if you decide to shoot your weapons.

Rovi, your summary was correct.

Erhard

The Viking
August 10, 2007, 03:35 PM
Erhard: Are you from Belgium? I've heard that licenses for most firearms is quite easy to get there?

fletcher
August 10, 2007, 03:37 PM
It's always interesting to see our European friends pitch in - it's a great way to learn a bit about gun culture/laws their areas.

Rovi
August 10, 2007, 03:46 PM
Hi Erhard.

Welcome to THR and thanks for confirming my summary, apologies for the quality of the 'translation', I'm sure it's hilarious to a native speaker. :D

Erhard
August 10, 2007, 04:57 PM
Yes, I am from Belgium.

Gun laws used to be quite relaxed in Belgium, until one year ago.
On may 11th, 2006 an 18-year old walked into a gun-shop in Antwerp, bought a Marlin 336 30-30, walked out and shot a Malinese woman, a Flemish girl (2 years old) that was with her and a Turkish woman. Only the Turkish woman survived. The slaughter was stopped when a police officer shot the shooter. He survived and will be trialed in october.

As a result gun laws were severly restricted in record-time.
I do think this was necessary. I don't find it normal that an 18-year old can legally buy a gun and ammunition within 15 minutes. The only thing he had to do was show his pasport to the gun-shop owner so that he would be registered as gun owner. No further obligations for a hunting rifle were necessary. (Laws for hand-guns were stricter.)

BUT...
There was no rational debate following the shooting. Politicians and media played the emotional card and tried to persuade the public that a direct link exists between gun-ownership and societal breakdown. The USA (often referred to as the "cowboy nation") was frequently portrayed as proof of this link. Other examples of nations which clearly defy this logic and are historically much more European than the USA are never mentioned (i.e. Switserland).
Law abiding people had to hand over their weapons to the police without compensation. A lot of antique, valuable or emotionaly precious weapons were destroyed. While these weapons and their owners never formed a problem.
Another example of the political urge to be holier than the pope: from now on, it is forbidden in Antwerp to show weapons (including knives) or pictures of weapons in shop-windows. This surely will stop criminals...not!
It is quite litteraly political "window-dressing".

Now, a year later and realising that a lot of people refused to hand in their weapons, a new list of weapons that can be owned without ammunition has been published. Imagine the anger of the people who handed over their grandfathers Mauser or Lee Enfield only to realize that they could have kept it! It is very nice, and a great thanks to the people that made it possible, that a new list appeared, but it came too late for a lot of people. And one begins to think that it was postponed on purpose. This kind of politics does not promote the credibility of politicians.

Best regards

Erhard

Silvanus
August 10, 2007, 05:01 PM
Yes, the Europeans call .45 ACP 11.2x23mm. I don't know why, but they do. They're so obsessed with Metric.

No we also call it .45 ACP. Never heard somebody in my country or France or Germany or Belgium really call it 11.2x23mm. That would be a rather long name don't you think:neener:



Barman, aren't the laws quite relaxed in France? I've heard of people (French and some from Luxembourg) shoot fully-automatic rifles and SMGs sometimes over there:scrutiny:

Could have been illegal, though...Hope nobody is watching this forum:uhoh:

Silvanus
August 10, 2007, 05:08 PM
Sorry to hear that Erhard. That's just stupid.

Same here...One example of stupid laws: You can buy a double barrel skeet shotgun and shoot it at the range. But since a policeman was shot with a pump-action shotgun about 10 years ago, you can still buy them(pump-action), but not take them to the range to shoot them. (keep in mind that you can still have the ammo at home, so if you plan on shooting somebody, no one's gonna stop you) Stupid, right?:cuss:

The Viking
August 10, 2007, 05:28 PM
Erhard: Care to tell me what the law is now, and what it used to be like?

Belgiboy
August 11, 2007, 07:50 AM
Dang, i better call my brother and sister. They come over to Minnesota for a good time with guns.

rudolf
August 11, 2007, 05:13 PM
I used to have some empty shells marked 11.25x23. They were .45ACP.

LAK
August 12, 2007, 01:09 AM
Amazing; considering Belgium being the host province of the eurostate capital.

dasmi
August 12, 2007, 01:15 AM
A little flicker of freedom returns to Europe. Excellent.

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