Curio and Relic


PDA






karnaaj
August 7, 2007, 09:41 PM
Could someone please explain to me what having this FFL license allows one to do? Is it hard to get? What's the process? Thanks for any replies.

If you enjoyed reading about "Curio and Relic" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
fletcher
August 7, 2007, 09:43 PM
As far as I know, it allows you to receive firearms designated C&R directly to your door, and isn't terribly hard to get.

There are a number of people on THR wil C&R FFLs who I'm sure can speak to the cost/trouble/benefits to having one.

Trebor
August 7, 2007, 09:55 PM
The C&R FFL is for the "Collecting of Curio and Relic" firearms. The ATF has determined that any firearm, in original condition, that is at least 50 years old is a "Curio and Relic." In addition, certain specific firearms less then 50 years old have also been determined to be "Curio and Relics" due to their scarcity or collector interest or some combination of factors. A couple of examples of the second category include the East German Makarov (but not Bulgarian) and the Czech CZ-82.

To apply for a C&R FFL you download and fill out the application from the ATF website. You also need to fill out the "proof of citizenship" form that is not actually on the application. You need to send a letter and a copy of your application to your local "Chief Law Enforcement Officer", just to inform him that you have applied for a C&R. You do NOT need his approval and he doesn't need to take any action. You send the original application, along with a $30 (I think?) fee to the ATF at the address listed on the form. When you receive your license, it is valid for 3 years before you have to renew it.

When you have a C&R license you are REQUIRED to maintain a "Bound Book" that lists any C&R firearms you have acquired since you receive your C&R license, even if you did not actually use your license to acquire that firearm. This is called "logging in" that firearm.

You are also required to record the "disposition" of any C&R firearm you dispose of during the time of your license. This is info relating to who you sold it to, the date of the transaction, and ID info on the purchaser. This called "logging out" that firearm. You are required to log out any C&R firearm in your bound book that you disposed of during the time of your license even if you acquired the firearm before you had your C&R license.

When you have a C&R license you are allowed to receive C&R firearms directly to your address. You are the license holder for that purpose. Many, but not all, of the big distributers will sell C&R firearms directly to C&R license holders. This saves you money as you get them at a better price and saves on FFL transfer fees. You'll need to send a signed copy of your C&R license to the seller before they'll send the firearm out though.

Be aware that certain states, such as California and NJ, place additional restrictions on C&R holders. For example, in California I believe all handgun sales must go through a FFL dealer and C&R holders can not have C&R handguns shipped right to them due to this state law.

One last thought: A C&R license is designed to help you improve your personal collection. It is NOT a business license and you will get in trouble with the ATF if they determine that you are in the "business" of buying and selling firearms with a C&R license.

For more info, go to the ATF website. Probably www.atf.gov.

karnaaj
August 7, 2007, 10:00 PM
Fletcher, Trebor, thanks for the quick replies. How much more difficult is it to get a full fledged FFL? Is it still even possible? I remember back in the day when they used to hand them out hand over fist but I am sure that has changed.

Trebor
August 7, 2007, 10:04 PM
It is much harder to get a business FFL then it used to be. One of the ways the ATF has made it harder is that you now have to show that your "licensed premises" are in compliance with local zoning regs. If you want your home, for example, to be your "licensed premises," then you have to show that your local zoning regs allow you to run a commercial business from your home.

The heyday of the "Kitchen table dealer" is pretty much gone. Some guys still do it, but many more are stymied by the zoning regs rule. The price has gone up to, IIRC, about $300 for three years as well.

becket
August 8, 2007, 12:19 AM
Anyone know if "open rural" zoning will allow FFL in Florida?
thanks

Niner
August 8, 2007, 12:45 AM
But don't think you can download the C&R form online any more. Think you can request the form and then mail it in after filling it out. You can also get a form from the batf office, if there is one near you.

Chief law enforcement notification is still a question as to who that officially is. Most definitions would say the local sheriff is the CLEO....however.... local head of the police department in a city is often cited. I think I've always sent my renewal to the Sheriff, although they share the info with the local city police department..... I know because my daughter works for a local police department and the clerk that keeps track of such things and puts it into the system told her..."hey, looks like your dad collects guns".

flynlr
August 8, 2007, 05:13 AM
beware of the dealer discounts that go with the C&R
Midway has made a mint from me in the last 6 months since having my FFL.
Brownells has a few of my bucks,. too.

Bruce333
August 8, 2007, 07:16 AM
To apply for a C&R FFL you download and fill out the application from the ATF website. You also need to fill out the "proof of citizenship" form that is not actually on the application.Correction.
You can't download the form any more. Have to order it: http://www.atf.gov/dcof/index.htm

The "Certificate of Compliance", which some call "proof of citizenship", has been incorporated into the application.

Chrome
August 8, 2007, 08:56 AM
Question about the C&R:

I know it is not a liscense to deal in firearms and you can only sell to advance your collection. However, are there any additional regulations you have to follow when you do sell a firearm to an individual?

Later,
Chrome...

Neo-Luddite
August 8, 2007, 10:51 AM
When you send off for your application pack on the ATF website, in about ten days you will get all the info.

Long story short--spend the 2 hours and 30 bucks--the type 3 FFL has MANY collateral bennefits depending on where you live. This has been discussed in great detail on THR many times. You'll likely save the 30 bucks on your first order with discounts offered to FFL holders by many companies.

CajunBass
August 8, 2007, 10:58 AM
I save more than the thirty dollars with my first order by not having to pay FFL fees for a couple of SKS's I ordered.

Trebor
August 8, 2007, 04:40 PM
However, are there any additional regulations you have to follow when you do sell a firearm to an individual?

Yes, you have to get certain identifying info, such as DL info or their C&R license number if they are a C&R, when you sell to a private individual. You have to record their name and that info in your bound book.

Chrome
August 8, 2007, 04:49 PM
Okay, that's not unreasonable. Just wanted to see if the current laws applied to the sale or if there were additional.

Later,
Chrome...

SnakeEater
August 8, 2007, 05:04 PM
It is worth it even if you don't use it for firearms. The discounts at certain places are substantial. Any of you get in on the $115 CZ-52's yesterday?

wdlsguy
August 8, 2007, 05:04 PM
A C&R license allows you to transport C&R destructive devices, machineguns, short-barreled shotguns, and short-barreled rifles interstate without an approved Application to Transport Interstate (http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f532020.pdf). ;)

Borderpath
August 16, 2007, 12:28 PM
I called the BATF about a C&R license and requested a kit. They told me not to use the downloadable forms I found online. I assume the forms have changed somewhat. I hate having to wait to receive the forms, but I guess it's better to do it right the first time.

Neo-Luddite
August 16, 2007, 04:36 PM
It won't take long--they're fast (forms took 10 days to get to my place from ATF). The forms will take a couple of hours to fill out (you have to do 2 sets--one for your cleo and one for ATF).

garymc
August 16, 2007, 06:12 PM
Where did you see CZ52's for $115?

aaronrkelly
August 16, 2007, 06:21 PM
It is worth it even if you don't use it for firearms. The discounts at certain places are substantial. Any of you get in on the $115 CZ-52's yesterday?

Nah, I got in on the $90 CZ52s about 1 year ago.....

rritter
August 16, 2007, 07:34 PM
One way I've heard (from THR, so take that for what it's worth) is that the chief LEO you need to send a copy of the application to is the guy in charge of whoever shows up if you call 911. If you get city police, send it to the chief. If you get sheriff's deputies, send it to the sheriff. In my case it was easy since I live in an unincorporated county area - sheriff it is.

Cosmoline
August 16, 2007, 08:09 PM
I refuse to get one. In part because of the federal paperwork hassle, but mostly because you don't move next to the liquor store if you're a drunk! I wouldn't have ANY money left.

Black Adder LXX
August 16, 2007, 08:51 PM
But don't think you can download the C&R form online any more. Think you can request the form and then mail it in after filling it out. You can also get a form from the batf office, if there is one near you.

I tried to send forms that I downloaded from cruffler.com and they got bounced back, and I had to start over, getting the forms from ATF.

AZAndy
August 16, 2007, 09:00 PM
Thanks, Bruce333, for that link. You nudged me into ordering the form by allowing me to not have to search for it. Navigating government websites really brings me down. (Had to track down some state tax law once and actually found two different answers on the same site...whoo boy.)

Andy

jim314
August 16, 2007, 10:55 PM
Yep, thanks Bruce. some of us just have to be lead by the hand to get things done. I ordered one too.

AZAndy
August 16, 2007, 11:00 PM
Jim, I'll race ya! :-)

john219
November 12, 2007, 03:06 AM
How long has this taken you folks from the time you ordered the application to be sent to you?


What disadvantages are there to a C&R FFL?

-Am I going to have th BATFE showing up at my home to go through my stuff and inspect things? They do this with regular FFL holders, right?

Do I have to send them copies of the logs? Or do I just keep them?

-Will I still be able to do private transfers if I have this? This is legal in Indiana, where I live. Regular FFL holders are not allowed to do private transfers. This isn't something that I have done even once a year, but I may want to do so.

Any thing else I should worry about?

Will I be harassed in any way?

I've been interested in this, as I see a lot of guns online that I would like, but I think finding a FFL transferrer is a lot of hassle, and I don't know if I am really saving much after all those transfer expenses. I've never made a mail order / internet firearm purchase.

CajunBass
November 12, 2007, 04:33 AM
As I understand it, the ATF almost never bothers C&R holders. Frankly they have bigger fish to fry. In theory they can ask to see your books. They do not just show up at your door and demand to see them. They either call or write and ask to set up an appointment. Your place, their place, a neutral place. Now I don't know any of this first hand, it's just what I've read on this and other boards. Personally I figure I'll never have any direct contact with the ATF other than renewing my license.

Speaking of which. I recently moved, and had to update my license. Not having any idea how to go about it, I emailed the ATF. The next day I got a very nice email back from them, explaining the process, linking me to the correct form to download and explaining what parts didn't apply to me (the form covers more than one type FFL). I filled it out, dropped it in the mail, and in about two weeks I got my updated license back. No problem, no hassle.

I pesonally don't see any downside to having one. I figure the government already knows who I am and where I live.

Trebor
November 12, 2007, 04:37 AM
What disadvantages are there to a C&R FFL?

-Am I going to have th BATFE showing up at my home to go through my stuff and inspect things? They do this with regular FFL holders, right?

No, the ATF is not going to show up at your door unannounced (or likely at all). While the ATF can do a "compliance inspection" on a C&R FFL holder, they don't usually bother to do so. The last time I heard of anyone with a C&R getting inspected by the ATF was a few years ago when the ATF did a whole bunch of C&R compliance inspections in the same year as part of a study to track how well C&R holders were complying with the law. I haven't heard of anyone being inspected since then.

If the ATF does notify you that they plan to do a "compliance inspection" you may choose to take your C&R boundbook and records and any C&R firearms to the local ATF and have the inspection done there instead of at your home.

Do I have to send them copies of the logs? Or do I just keep them?

You keep a copy of your bound book. You even just keep it if you decide not to renew your license. (Unlike a commercial/dealer FFL who has to send his bound book into the ATF when he surrenders his license).

Will I still be able to do private transfers if I have this? This is legal in Indiana, where I live. Regular FFL holders are not allowed to do private transfers. This isn't something that I have done even once a year, but I may want to do so.

What do you mean by private transfers? You can not use a C&R license to buy guns for the purpose of resale. You can still sell guns from your collection, even if you used your C&R to buy them, but you just need to be reasonable about it so the ATF doesn't go after you for "acting as a dealer with a C&R only license."



Will I be harassed in any way?



No. I've yet to hear of any C&R owners being harassed by the ATF. Even when they did do a bunch of C&R inspections a few years back, none of the C&R holders who wrote about it on-line described it as harassment.

john219
November 12, 2007, 01:51 PM
What do you mean by private transfers? You can not use a C&R license to buy guns for the purpose of resale. You can still sell guns from your collection, even if you used your C&R to buy them, but you just need to be reasonable about it so the ATF doesn't go after you for "acting as a dealer with a C&R only license."

I've had people that I know offer to buy guns of mine in the past, and I sold to them. This happened a few times in my life. It has been years since it has happened, and not even an average of one time a year. These were guns that were a few years old.

Do I have to do anything different other than write the gun into a log book? Would the person have to fill out one of those forms that I fill out at a gun store?

I may want to buy from a private person, and I can imagine that with a larger collection, more people may want to buy something from me. I just like to keep options open that I have now.

Gator
November 12, 2007, 04:40 PM
Do I have to do anything different other than write the gun into a log book? Would the person have to fill out one of those forms that I fill out at a gun store?

If it is a C&R you must log it out of your bound book. No 4473 is required, but your State may have record keeping laws for private sales that still have to be followed (for example; in IL we have to keep a record of private transfers for ten years). If you buy a C&R in a private sale, it too must be entered in your bound book.

AirplaneDoc
December 24, 2007, 01:01 PM
Just for clarification if I have a C&R

I want to purchase a H&K45 USP. I understand that the C&R does not apply to this purchase, and it has to go thru a regular dealer. Do I have to log this purchase into my book or only C&R (50+ years and on the list) firearms?

Thanks

Bruce333
December 24, 2007, 01:05 PM
Only C&R firearms need to go into your bound book.

AirplaneDoc
December 24, 2007, 01:10 PM
Thanks Bruce, That is what I was thinking

mekender
December 24, 2007, 05:16 PM
there is a place on the ATF website where you can order a C&R packet... youll get a mailing with all of the forms needed including finger print cards... shows up in like 4 days thanks to the USPS... hell my tax payer dollars pay for em, so why not use em :-D

Bruce333
December 24, 2007, 06:00 PM
there is a place on the ATF website where you can order a C&R packet... youll get a mailing with all of the forms needed including finger print cardsNo finger printing required to get a C&R.

order forms here: http://www.atf.gov/dcof/index.htm

EOD Guy
December 25, 2007, 04:17 PM
Just for clarification if I have a C&R

I want to purchase a H&K45 USP. I understand that the C&R does not apply to this purchase, and it has to go thru a regular dealer. Do I have to log this purchase into my book or only C&R (50+ years and on the list) firearms?

Thanks

It's 50+ years old OR on the list. It doesn't have to be both.

Mojo-jo-jo
December 25, 2007, 04:34 PM
When you get your C&R, go ahead and put a copy on file with all of the major importers/wholesalers, whether or not they currently have anything you are looking for. This will put you on their catalog mailing list, and you will get their (usually) monthly "dealer" catalog of all kinds of goodies to buy! The catalog will also show their wholesale prices on their non-C&R stuff, so you can get some "inside" bargaining info for non-C&R purchases as well.

It also makes it easier to order if your copy is already on file. With some wholesalers you can even order on line. It's nice to be able to order online and have the UPS guy show up 2-5 days later with your new firearm!

The BATFE changed their rules a couple of years ago, and now faxed/emailed copies of the license are valid. However, some of the dealers still require a signed paper copy. Keep that in mind.

jws527
June 2, 2008, 02:57 PM
I figure it's better to resurrect this thread than start a new one, given all of the relevant information already contained therein...

Moreover, my apologies if this has been answered or covered somewhere before.

Anyhow, I've decided to apply for a C&R license. Before I send the forms in, however, I do have one question that I wasn't able to answer to my satisfaction by searching through this forum or others:

I'm moving in four months. Thus, at present, I don't have a truly permanent address (the impending move means that my current address is technically temporary). However, I plan to make most or all of my C&R purchases during this four month period, so the address I provide will be valid for that duration. Obviously enough, I would have to update (amend) my license to reflect my new address if I want to continue making C&R purchases after moving.

That's where the question comes in:
Must I live at (and store) my C&R eligible collection at the address specified on any current license, or is that address only necessary (at least as long as my contact info e.g. phone remains valid) for ordering/purchasing purposes? Note: I will still legally retain this address for at least a year after my move, though I myself will NOT be physically present.

I only ask because there is a strong possibility that I will change addresses again after about about a year or so following this upcoming move and it is unlikely that I will make a C&R related firearm purchases during that time period. Otherwise I would simply amend it to avoid any complications - but amending it twice would prove bothersome (though I will do it if necessary).

George C Morrison
June 2, 2008, 03:11 PM
Must I live at (and store) my C&R eligible collection at the address specified on any current license, or is that address only necessary (at least as long as my contact info e.g. phone remains valid) for ordering/purchasing purposes?

You do not have to live at the same address your purchases are stored.
Just notify the ATF each time you move.No mail will be forwarded as per ATF regulations.
This will be stated on your license.They require a notification of 30 days before each premises change.

jws527
June 2, 2008, 03:35 PM
You do not have to live at the same address your purchases are stored.
Just notify the ATF each time you move.No mail will be forwarded as per ATF regulations.
This will be stated on your license.They require a notification of 30 days before each premises change.Suppose I take my collection (either in whole or in part) with me when I move? Most of the C&R firearms I intend to purchase with the license will be used as shooters, after all.

I'm just concerned about mobility with a C&R license, as my current career position places me in a situation where I'm moving around frequently (I've already moved three times in five years). That isn't an issue with firearms purchased through a dealer. It seems like a great way to save some money and a great deal of hassle (I hate dealing with internet transfers, because I frequently end up living in areas with dealers who fleece for transfers and I'm seldom around long enough to build a working relationship with any of them), but if I'm constantly contacting the ATF and amending my license while I possess it, it might not be worth the trouble.

George C Morrison
June 2, 2008, 04:22 PM
Suppose I take my collection (either in whole or in part) with me when I move? Most of the C&R firearms I intend to purchase with the license will be used as shooters, after all.

There is no problem with that.I believe you are overly worrying about potential moves.
There is going to have be some leeway with a license holder making sudden, needed career moves.
If you have any questions in the future when your moves come up, you can always call the Fed Licensing Center at 1-866-662-2750 in Atlanta.
The C & R is well worth having.
Once you get it, I think you'll want to keep it.:)

jws527
June 2, 2008, 04:55 PM
Wonderful - thank you.

rritter
June 2, 2008, 08:05 PM
The address on the C&R license mainly defines where any purchases will be shipped to. You'll be sending a copy of the license to the seller, and they will probably balk at shipping to any other address. You don't have to keep the guns at that address once you've bought it. Just notify the BATFE before you move, and send the updated licenses (once you have them) to any sellers you use regularly.

Mojo-jo-jo
June 3, 2008, 12:20 AM
Moving with a C&R is no problem--I have done so twice. You simply file a form and the ATF will send you a new license with the new address. Quick and painless.

MarkDido
June 3, 2008, 01:47 AM
I have one so I can tell people I have a "Federal Firearms License"

Hey, these are the same people who belive the media when they say that the bad guy used a high-capacity, high-powered automatic loading revolver"

;)

jws527
June 3, 2008, 04:19 PM
I have one so I can tell people I have a "Federal Firearms License"

Hey, these are the same people who belive the media when they say that the bad guy used a high-capacity, high-powered automatic loading revolver"Ha! My father was a high end collector at one time, while my mother is and apparently always has been vehemently anti-gun. I suspect he ultimately liquidated his collection at her behest. :rolleyes:

In any case, when I finally revealed to my mother that I owned firearms of my own, she went into a fit of hysteria and began equating me with a terrorist or criminal, and then demanded proof that I possess a "firearms license." Apparently she thinks we're still in Germany, because there is no requirement for a firearms license or even local registration in Florida.

This morning, I sent her a scan of my C&R application before it went out. Since the 7CR form has the words "Federal Firearms License" displayed prominently in bold at the top, she was satisfied that I was "doing things right." If only she knew that I acquired it specifically so that I could buy MORE guns at a discount without the need for a background check or dealer transfer. :evil:

04JRB
June 19, 2008, 07:28 PM
I order a lot of reloading componants and gear from midway and mid south, what kind of discounts are available to a C&R holder?

If you enjoyed reading about "Curio and Relic" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!