[.45FMJoe]

OK, so I'm driving home from the range and my freind is driving his father's suburban behind me. We are traveling down a 3 lane highway in the center lane. An explorer pulls out of a Bennigan's parking lot and proceeds to merge right into my friend's side. He lays on the horn and swerves that Suburban to avoid nailing her. So he sits back and lays on the horn and I'm sure flipped her off, she returned the favor. Now, she starts tailgating him, because how dare he, a white man, act in such a racist way to a car load of blacks. :rolleyes: So, he passes me and nails the gas and moves in front of me. So she starts tailgating me with her brights on. So what do I do? Brake check, I could have sworn the peddle felt awkward, I was just testing it out. :D So now she's REALLY on my tail then starts moving up next to me, coming into my lane trying to run me off the road with a couple other individuals rolling their windows down cursing at me and asking if I wanna fight. They followed me for quite some time and kept trying to run me off the road. So now my luck kicks me square in the nuts. I just bought a Colt 1991 last month, and never even had to think about maybe having to use it if something happened. Problem is, I sold it yesterday morning so I could buy another one in stainless. BTW, my friend already called TPD and reported what was happening. So, sitting in my cup holder is one of my 2 Wilson Combat 8 round mags, loaded with Hydra-Shoks. I was considering flashing the clip at them next time they pulled up trying to run me off the road, but decided against it since I didn't have a gun capable of firing them. Now, they are at this point following me home so I'm up against a wall here, and my friend has a loaded 9mm S&W (16 rounmd preban), .32 Kel-tec (11 round) and a loaded 590 Mossberg (9 round) in the truck. Luckily, they decided to turn around and stop following me, but at what point do you have to stop and risk exiting the vehicle? Obviously I'm not gonna compremise the house, and 911 was not being helpful. But, after this long rant, would brandishing a loaded clip be illegal? I don't see it as assault with a deadly weapon, because there was nothing to point at them, and it is not a part of the gun, it is simply the magazine. Any comments?

[KP95DAO]

First off, race wasn't necessarily a part in their reaction. I have gotten the same kind of reaction from upbraiding "white people" for their stupidity.
Second, that is why we carry cell phones.
Thirdly, that is why you should know where the PD station is.
And last, but not least, showing the magazine would probably be considered brandishing by someone in the legal circles and as long as you can safely exit the area in your vehicle you should never stop to "settle" things.

[Betty]

Responsible gun owners don't help fuel road games by playing brake tests. De-escalate by any means possible. It's good you decided not to flash the mags - what if they had guns also and started shooting? You would've had a massive mess on your hands that escalated over a little piece of road.

[Greg L]

How do you get 11 rounds into a P-32?

I agree, if you are a local know where the police station is or at least have 911 direct you to a local unit.

Greg

[P95Carry]

I daresay flashing a mag could in some jurisdictions be seen as a no-no.

However, bottom line to me would be .... don't make a threat you can't follow up .... plus, this situation was almost certainly one to give max effort to ''defuze'' ....... and it seems in the end they got bored with it ... safest result.

[.45FMJoe]

Eh, it was a heat of the moment, thing. I didn't hit the brakes hard, just enough to piss her off I guess. She is VERY lucky I was driving my Focus and not my 4x4 RamCharger. I've had a buick roadmaster sideswipe my massive Dodge before and came out on top with nary a scratch. If she had been so stupid as to try to run me off, I would have jerked my wheel left and sent her Explorer into it's natural postition, wheels up. If all 4 of them died in the process, so be it. I guess what I forgot was the fact they all had their windows down, yelling "stupid cracker -bleep-" and trying to get me to fight, etc. I apollogize if my remarks offended anyone.

Oh, and we managed 11 rounds in a Kel-tec by purchasing the 10 round extended clip by KEl-tec.

[Betty]

.45FMJoe, please read your PM.

[Hkmp5sd]

If you are armed and you knowing escalate an encounter or otherwise allow an encounter to reach the point you use deadly force to defend yourself, you can be charged with murder. They were wrong and you were right, initially. But you could have simply pulled over and let them go without brakechecks or anything else.

If you are going to go armed in society, you must be able to control your emotions and let things slide that you would prefer not to.

[.45FMJoe]

Oh, see I tried letting them go, but no...they had to follow me. Oh well, I'm over the blood boiling stage and want to forget about it.

[MR.G]

I have heard of people that carry a bag of roofing nails next to them, for aggressive and threatening drivers behind them. I personally think that is wrong.

[Phyphor]

.45 Joe, don't lower yourself to the position of the agressors, you not only risk your own life, but your rights to carry arms, not to mention ours. Think about it, if something would have happened, and the story came out that you flashed loaded mags at someone, then the liberals would be all too happy to make an example out of the incident.

and to the above, any idiot that throws out roofing nails onto the road should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. What if they miss the intended target and take out someone else's front tires? Anyone here ever have a front tire blowout? NOT FUN.

[.45FMJoe]

that same friend did that in HS...but think about who else would be affected and it's too much a problem. I'm referring to the roofing nails.

[sm]

Got a feeling runt will handle this just fine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those whom lurk, This is a responsible forum, for RKBA and responsible gun ownership. This includes behavior in everday affairs.

Whether you CCW or not, sitting on the fence, or just plain don't like guns consider:

Avoid situations, go the extra effort, you do not know what, where, how , whom will happen.
Have awareness at all times , and a way out, and a way out if that one doesn't work.
cell phones, knowing a location of a police station , firestation, crowds of persons...lay on horn. Do not go home or place of business.

NEVER, NEVER brandish anything threatening, fists, weapons, knives...you don't know they will not shoot or run you off the road--report you to police...your word against theirs-but they reported it.

I myself hold myself to a higher road--standards. I may bite my lip or bruise my ego, but I assure I can look you square in the eye and with brutal honesty tell you I did the right thing .

[.45FMJoe]

That's the same thing my mother told me. Well, it just shows I need to work on my temper and get rid of some of the stress that accompanies being a Chemical Engineering/Marine Biology student at USF.

AS I stated, the police were already called. It's what to do when you are being pushed around by an SUV in a samll economy car.

[TheeBadOne]

Wave your cell phone at them, not your clip or gun.

[Betty]

Oh, see I tried letting them go, but no...they had to follow me.

You didn't just try to let them go - you did the "brake test" that infuriated them. You're not the innocent victim. It's easy to say "they started it" or "how easy it is to shift the blame onto me". You didn't stay put and let the car around you and you did not signal and move out of the way. You are equally responsible for any results stemming from the road rage incident, because you decided to take an active part in it. You escalated it, and it's important to learn NOT to do that, especially if you're a gun owner and have a carry permit.

You got mad and did the brake test, and gauging from your other posts in this thread, you have a temper. If you do not curb that temper, you are going to get yourself into a very bad situation one day.

Everyone has experienced road rage at least once, and for many, multiple times.

When I was a teen I did the brake test, and the other driver swerved around me and almost drove me off the road. Was tailgating really worth possibly landing me in the hospital? No. I never did the brake test again, and I do hope the other driver hasn't raged on anyone else.

My co-worker was harrassed by a gun-weilding man on the freeway because he honked at him for trying to drive over him. Luckily for my co-worker, a couple truck drivers remedied the situation by shoving the menacing driver off an exit.

My cousin ended up in a fistfight over tailgating.

I had a dump truck tailgate so close all I could see in my mirror was the grille. I've been flicked the bird at and cursed at, and yet I keep my cool, because I know that the little scrap of road we're on isn't worth it, it sure isn't worth drawing a gun over, and it sure isn't worth dying over. As a permit holder and responsible driver, I know I must keep my head and calmly drive on.

Most people get road rage because of the Ego Problem. "They're right, and they're not about to be bested by someone else." And it escalates, often resulting in innocent drivers around them being pushed off the road or worse. You haven't learned to accept humility. If you don't, your Pride and Ego will get you killed.

[.45FMJoe]

I tried moving through traffic, but she must have seen me talking to my friend while we were driving. If he moved, I moved and she moved. Yes, then I brake checked her. I didn't want her to hit my new car, so I just kinda nailed the pedal for a split second and then re-accelerated.

[Rebeldon]

It would have been a bad idea to brandish the magazines. They might have had a magazines too, but had the gun included.

It's not a good idea to brandish a weapon. In Florida, that could be assault with a deadly weapon. You don't need that! If you exhibit a firearm "in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self defense" you are in deep doo doo. If you weren't justified in shooting the weapon, you weren't justified in brandishing it either. Of course, the question is, were your circumstances such that your only means of avoided death or serious bodily injury was to use your firearm?

If you carry a firearm in Florida, you really need to avoid making any aggravating gestures (giving somebody the finger) or words (cursing somebody out) that could possibly evoke a violent reaction that would make it necessary for you to defend yourself with a firearm. The prosecutor will chew you up, saying that you escalated the tension, knowing full well you had the means of taking a life at your disposal. If you carry a firearm in Florida, it is your responsibility to avoid such circumstances. You do not have the option of defending your honor! If you exhibit, or use, your firearm, you must be able to truthfully explain (and it helps to have witnesses) that you first tried to retreat from the potentially violent situation, or that you had no possibility of retreating, and that your actions can reasonably be explained as your last and only means of defending yourself, or somebody else, from death of serious bodily injury. You might be able to say that you, being a reasonable person, believed that the people in the Explorer were trying to cause you to crash, which could cause death or serious bodily injury. A car can be used as a weapon. It can be more deadly than a gun if used as a weapon. You were there, I wasn't. But be sure there was no way you could have avoided it first.

I had to "brandish" my Ruger P97 .45ACP one night on an Alabama highway (I-20/59, near Tuscaloosa). It was about 10pm on a Sunday night, and I was going home (I lived in Bessemer, AL) with my family. I was driving. I was in the left lane, passing an 18-wheeler going about 75mph in the right lane. The 18-wheeler was going about 70mph. Suddenly, a car seemed to rocket toward me going about 100mph in the left lane. He was closing fast. I wanted to change lanes, but I could not change lanes fast enough because the 18-wheeler was still to my right. The car that closed too fast behind me had to slam on his breaks to avoid hitting me from behind, and he swerved a little too. Once he had slowed down, he pulled up on my rear bumper, almost touching it, and flicked his brights at me. I finally got past the 18-wheeler and I was far enough ahead of him to change lanes and get out of this idiot's way. But that wasn't good enough for him. He must have decided that I needed to be taught the lesson that he owned the road, so when he pulled up next to me, he slowed down and drove my speed. I looked over at him and there were two men in the car. Their windows were rolled down. Mine were rolled up. I knew I couldn't outrun their car (I was driving a 4-cylinder Camry, they were in a Grand Torino), so I slowed down. That allowed the 18-wheeler behind me to catch up to me from behind and pull right up on my bumper before he slowed down. Then the 18-wheeler's driver honked at us, probably witnessing everything that was happening. Then the Grand Torino started to swerve into my lane, crowding me over, half-way into the emergency lane. Ahead of me was a overpass bridge, which had no emergency lane, and behind me was a 18-wheeler, and to the left of me was two weirded out kooks trying to run me off the road, and to the right of me was a very rough drop off. Then my wife said, "Do you want your pistol?" I said, "Yeah!" So she handed me my pistol and I held it up to the window, and the guys in the Grand Torino saw it. They burned rubber, and pulled away so fast I could barely tell they had a Tennessee plate. I yelled, "Welcome to Alabama!"

Believe it or not, when I told that story, I was criticized by some people. Others agreed that my actions were justified. But I can say for certain that if they continued to push me over any further, I would have shot at them, and through my window too. I don't know if your situation was that dire, but maybe it was.

[JohnBT]

The safest solution I know for tailgaters is to g r a d u a l l y slow down. Once they figure out you don't want to play they usually go away.

Actually, if your car can outrun them that will work better. Blip the parking lights to mimic the brakes and hit the gas and escape when they flinch. But it does take some horsepower and a lot of open road.

Letting a dump truck camp on my bumper is not an option. If you have to stop suddenly you're done for. I used to drive a dumper and I know how fast they don't stop in an emergency. And if the dumper is filled with wet topsoil or tree trunks it's really nasty.

For the really horrible stories of big trucks flattening cars I refer you to my father. He was a State Trooper and then a safety engineer for a trucking company. If you want to hear them let me know and I'll have him mail them to me.

John

[Betty]

Letting a dump truck camp on my bumper is not an option.

For the one that did it to me, I hit the gas and disappeared down the road. Figured my little Sonoma could accelerate faster than his dump truck, and it did.

Other road rage incidents in the news:

Some kind of road rage incident; drivers pull over. Man grabs woman's pooch and flings it across the freeway to it's death.

Numerous shootings/other fatalities.

[Derek Zeanah]

The safest solution I know for tailgaters is to g r a d u a l l y slow down. Once they figure out you don't want to play they usually go away. Or drive a diesel -- if they're too close, down-shift and floor it. They tend to move quickly. :evil:

[triggertime]

I've tried to delibrately speed up to create distance between me and the person tailgating to give them the message that they are invading my comfort zone, but that only causes them to speed up and start tailgating again.

Tolerance is the best solution. Just hope you don't have to brake suddenly.

[Blackhawk]

but at what point do you have to stop and risk exiting the vehicle? ... But, after this long rant, would brandishing a loaded clip be illegal? You don't have to stop until you find a properly staffed donut shop (with LEOs) or a police station.

Brandishing a gun is, but a magazine? That would be a stretch even for some LEO trying to hang you.

Not a good idea to antagonize idiots. They're usually more stupid than you thought....

[CZ-75]

"Welcome to Alabama!"

Alabama has nuttier drivers than Tennessee, if not for degree, at least for frequency.

Drive through both states often to visit the Midwest from my current location.

Alabamians seem to have a problem with letting people merge onto or off the highway. Been honked and flashed at by drivers who didn't want to let me exit or enter the highway numerous times, even when a lane change on their part would've been easily accomplished.

I resisted the urge to retaliate, though I've sent one yahoo into the ditch when he wouldn't let me onto a nearly empty highway many moons ago through immediate and forceful brake application. Being armed does seem to add some responsibility to one's actions, if not one's thoughts

Tennessee takes the cake, though. Never had someone cut in front of me when going 90 (SOP on I-65, from what I've seen) with less than a foot to spare. Funny thing was, we were coming up to an 85MPH traffic jam and I drove behind this idiot for 10+ miles, then proceeded to ditch him when things thinned out. Still don't know what his point was. Perhaps that I shouldn't have sped up to prevent him form doing what would've been a one car length gap cut-off otherwise. I didn't retaliate here either. The last thing I would've been thinking about was pulling my gun at these speeds -- we'd be dead from the impact.

Anyhow, what happened to Southern Hospitality? Chicago and St. Louis aren't this bad.

[ed dixon]

Tailgating is extremely common in these parts and it does infuriate me. I drive right lane unless I get behind a lol doing 35 on an expressway, and if the 'gating still happens, I do slow down. These people are ignorant, arrogant fools and real hazards. And they seem to be very common out there. Their inbred cousins who still don't know what "yield" means come in a close second.

In my twenties I chased a couple cutoff artists to red lights, got out and menaced until I got an apology. I'm not gonna put a child riding in the back in the middle of that and I'm much less shocked by all the stupidity on the roads. Lots of dumb, selfish people drive and many drive in a dumb, selfish manner. I make up for their bad driving every day by anticipating their stupidity and impatience. Save me and mine by doing so and also them and theirs. Not waiting for a thank you (or an apology) anymore. Would like to see more LEOs come down harder on this. Seems like they expect it too.

Yes, I know this only addressed the method and not the intent of the incident described, but my blood pressure needs to settle.

[Lord Grey Boots]

Um, the brake check could have got you killed.

Deliberately hitting the brakes when there is someone right on your tail is a good way to be hit hard enough to send you spinning off the road.

You are betting someone who is stupid/inattentive/drunk will be fast enough on the reflexes to slow their vehicle in time to either not hit you, or to just tap you. The chance they will RAM you mistakenly or deliberately is too high.

Don't escalate it. Don't ignore them. Keep in control, and get AWAY from them.

[Pendragon]

I commute 30 minutes from Sacramento to Roseville.

The sheer number of people on the road that cannot abide to be behind another car if there is 15 feet of space in front of you is astounding.

I drive a 1987 Honda Accord. It is "peppy" but not anywhere near "fast".

Both ways, I get in the left lane and cruise with traffic - and there is a lot of traffic. The speed averages 70-80mph.

What drives me crazy is that about 50% of the drivers will try and pass you for no reason. All lanes are full, I am in the fastest lane, there is no "open road" to take - but the guy behind me thinks that my keeping a couple of car lengths between myself and the guy ahead is going to make him late for work.

So what does he do? He moves right, guns it and tries to move up and squeeze into my reaction margin.

What do I do? I chuckle and gently speed up.

His gap narrows, he slows down, but by now, the people behind him have shut him out and he starts to fall back with the slower lane he is now in.

50% of the people that do this then try and zig zag through the slower lanes to make up their lost ground. only 15% of these succeed and only if the traffic is light enough.

So anyway - yes, I am a total bastage for doing this, but these guys are completely predictable:

I sense guy behind getting antsy. Right lane clears up for his little leap frog act. He speeds up. My move is so slow and gradual that it does not seem obvious. His passing gap diappears.

Yes, I probably do have issues. Yes, it is not the most adult thing to do. I think I enjoy it because it is kind of passive aggressive and I figure that anyone who drives like they do just deserves it.

No, I do not carry.

[Rebeldon]

"Alabama has nuttier drivers than Tennessee, if not for degree, at least for frequency"

You are right about Alabama drivers--especially in Birmingham and Montgomery. They'll run you off the road into a culvert to save two seconds.

Just try to merge onto an on ramp at the I-20/59, I-65 junction in Birmingham. It's called "Malfunction Junction" by the locals. I used to be one of the locals. I liked living there, but I didn't like the drivers.

[spacemanspiff]

its accounts like this that make me glad i no longer own a car. you can almost always slow down or speed up to elude a road-rager. if not, unless you are on a highway there are side streets to exit on.
there is NO REASON to knowingly escalate a situation as .45fmjoe was in. there is NO REASON to do the 'brake test'. as for your friend in his truck, i hope the carrying of a loaded shotgun in a vehicle is not illegal in your state. it is in mine.

[ojibweindian]

Rebeldon

Huntsville drivers are pretty awful, too.

[Viking6]

.45fmjoe, between your experience and the advice here, you've learned a lesson. That's a good thing. When things go bad, no one really wins. Just remember to try and stay cool but also aware. Many of us here, who are responsible now, are only here by the grace of God. Be cause in my personal case I did many a dumb thing in youth that I hope to heaven that my kids never do.

[2nd Amendment]

Brake check is also an excellent way to get someone else to pay for the damaged rear bumper that the parking lot hit and run expert didn't have to pay for. Escalation? Yeah, ok, you're all right. I don't incite road rage by driving stupid and I expect the same. I'll even leave or ignore it if possible, but past a certain point, scroom. Outrun them? Nice way to get a ticket or cause an accident. Slow down? Nice way to get run over or still get a ticket.

Being involved in RKBA should not mean you have to tolerate every single dose of stupidity served up to you by a world full of arrogant bastards because someone might try to put the blame on you.

Sorry, after years of dealing with the public I just don't have much tolerance left for stupid people tricks.

[Catsync]

NJ has a lot of bad drivers. Tailgaters really annoy me... they risk people's lives to get somewhere 3 seconds faster. :rolleyes: I gradually slow down to 5-10 under the speed limit until they get impatient and go past me, and I've found the strategy works pretty well.

[Smurfslayer]

do an acceleration check. Regardless of who's RIGHT, by initiating a sudden braking move in the direct path of a tailgater, you are not violating just traffic code, you're challenging the laws of physics. <tip> there are mandatory minimum sentences for a conviction of a violation of the laws of physics. </tip>

Remember, when 2 or more vehicles collide, all things being equal, the one with more mass wins.

Just slowing down is equally a problem, it's only going to escalate the situation further. Lane change, and get out of their way. If they're intent on staying with you, you need to do this hard, so they don't get a chance to get in behind you. This is highly dangerous in an SUV or other vehicle with a high center of gravity, and you also *must* be sure you have a clear lane to the direction you are going. SUV's are relatively easy to lose, as are contractor vans, and other ponderous vehicles. Doing a quick lane change, get the wheels straight & nail the brakes to threshold braking. With the delay in their reaction times, if your vehicles are close or equal in braking, you should be able to get over & behind them, or take an exit that there's no physical way they can make. Your vehicles need to be in good shape to do this. DO NOT do this on to a shoulder, ever. Otherwise, you are trapped. Use this only to evade.

[jimpeel]

Flashing the magazine could be construed as "making a terroristic threat". The same can be said if you were to make a finger gun and aim it at the other driver.

A fun thing to do with tailgaters, if the opportunity presents itself, is to run directly at an obstacle in the roadway and then swerve just in the nick of time. They will usually not be able to react to your reaction fast enough to avoid running over the obstacle.

Also, if you have high clearance, and they are driving something low, and you see something in the roadway, such as a tire tread from a large truck, you can drive over it and as it appears out the back of your car you get to watch the fun. Did this to a tailgater one night and the airdam on the front of his car came apart like a two dollar shirt.

If you both have high clearance, you can clip the object with your rear tire and cause it to pop up into their front end.

Another trick is to run your left wheels in the median area where all of the gravel gets thrown and rearange their paint job and windshield. This will not engender good will between you, however.

[HS/LD]

To put this in perspective.

I am aware of individuals that, if someone "displayed" a maganzine to them. They would consider that as a threat against their life, and immediately pre-empt the action by shooting first.

Never display a firearm or any other weapon or part of a weapon unless your life is threatened.

Regards,
HS/LD

[Beren]

Flipping them off was a childish, assinine act that only served to further inflame an already heated situation. As a concealed carry permit holder, you should know better. Learn to control such impulses before they get you in trouble.

Your "brake test" was yet another childish, assinine, inflammatory act.

Guess what? A lawyer could reasonably argue that you helped /provoke/ an incident. Had you been forced to shoot the clowns, you might have been looking at voluntary manslaughter instead of legal self-defense!

Waving pistol magazines at them? Yes, that also would have been a CAI act - more severe than the rest, because it could be reasonably construed as threatening lethal force! THAT would have given them cause to call the police themselves and swear you "threatened them with a pistol."

If someone slights your honor on the road, be a man and forget about it. If they recklessly endanger you, get their license plate number and file a complaint.

If, as you say, they continued to tailgate you: I had a situation like this in my early years, through no fault of my own. I drove to the state police barracks (about 10 minutes from where I was at the time) and parked in their lot. The morons followed me and parked beside me. They started to get out of their car until they realized where they were, then rapidly exited the area.

My recommendation would be to do something similar, if at all possible. You were wise to avoid driving home with them following you.

[jimpeel]

Another thing you can do to thwart this type of behavior is to simply start going around the same block time after time until they peel off and leave. May take several rotations for this to occur but works every time.

[Larry Ashcraft]

jimpeel, excellent suggestion. I'll try that next time. :D