[Woodsmoke]

I went into Gander Mountain in North Houston today to purchase an S&W Model 638.

My wife was with me as the revolver was going to be for her. She liked it due to the light weight and the great way it fit into her purse.

The clerk, who was the quintessential gun store commando, told her that if the revolver is struck hard enough on the back strap with a round under the hammer the gun will fire. He said this could happen if she drops her purse. Instead, he wanted to sell her a Taurus PT something or other. Personally, I thought it was complete BS since this guy was the reincarnation of Barney Fife and had just finished telling us how “we should trust his judgment as he plays with these guns all day”. How dare I not recognize his expertise. In fact, he told us a story of how his friend shot himself in the butt while holstering his Glock into a check six holster and then proceeded to lambaste Glocks and the people who own them.

My wife and I own many pistols and shoot them regularly, but we have never owned a revolver. Considering this is will be my wife’s carry gun I want her to be confident in her purchase. She asked me to do some research on it and I told her I knew just where to go.

I need your help as I don’t know if what Barney said is true or even loosely based on fact. The man was obnoxious and stupid, but even stupid people repeat correct information from time to time.

Thanks in advance.

[wuchak]

The good news is your BS Meter is working perfectly!

All modern double action revolvers, and most single actions use a transfer bar to transfer the energy of the hammer to the firing pin and are perfectly safe to carry with the hammer on a live round.

I'd let the manager know that his employee is dispensing bad information and perhaps he either needs additional training or he should keep his mouth shut and just show people what they want to see.

[bill larry]

Complete horse pooh. Shop elsewhere if possible.

[Woodsmoke]

Thank you gentleman. I will be purchasing the gun from Top Gun near where I work.

It really makes me mad when those behind the counter invent problems to dissuade people from buying the guns they want. I think I will write the manager.

[blutarsky]

...Gander Mountain in North Houston...
sorry to be slightly off-topic, but is that the one on 45? i've been there a few times, as recently as last friday to check on ammo (which i always tend to find cheaper at academy anyway). BUT i tend to swing by the gun counter and browse around while i'm there -- if it's the same store, i think i know exactly the guy you're talking about, and you're right that you'd do very well to ignore what you're told there. the handful of gun guys that i've dealt with there seem to be about the same, save for one of the older guys who is kind enough to just lay low and show what you ask for and not push something else.

anyway -- good luck :)

[MattB000]

At the gander mtn. here if you question the employee he will pull a .50 BMG casing out of his breast pocket and say "I have experience with all types of weapons, including military."

[Woodsmoke]

Yes, blutarsky, the store on I45 North is the one I went to last night.

If you have been there then you know who I am talking about. This guy is really young and it shows.

There is an older gentleman there with a beard that is very helpful, but he wasn't there tonight, much to my dismay.

[Trebor]

Ignore the guy. He's a jerk and doesn't know what he's talking about.

If he really becomes a PITA, complain to a manager, or at least let them know what kind of "advice" he's spouting.

[Woodsmoke]

Yeah, I probably should Trebor.

The only thing that makes me want to do something is what if my wife and I weren't experienced shooters or what if a woman had come into that store after being threatened and made the decision to purchase a gun. This might be the first encounter with gun owners that lady would have, and it would no doubt be a complete turn off. I'll think about it before writing.

Right now my biggest concern is whether or not the Scandium model is really worth twice the price of the Aluminum one?

[joab]

I need your help as I don’t know if what Barney said is true or even loosely based on fact. The man was obnoxious and stupid, but even stupid people repeat correct information from time to time.maybe but not this time.
Do us all a favor and forward this to his area manager

I love our GM because even though the clerks, being people, have preferences I have never been subjected to an agenda.

[Stainz]

I believe all S&W revolvers since around the end of WWII have had the trigger-coupled hammer block. The trigger must be pulled for the hammer mounted firing pin to clear the block, or, the hammer to clear said block and strike the frame mounted firing pin. To test this, just take any modern S&W with a hammer, cock it, and while retarding the movement of the hammer, briefly pull the trigger to release said hammer. Watch the gap between the blast shield and cylinder - no firing pin protrusion. Normally, you cannot get your finger 'off' the trigger rapidly enough, once pulled, to prevent the hammer block from moving, permitting the fp to pop the primer and fire the round. Such a modern S&W will 'pass the drop test', mandatory for sales in CA, etc, and not fire accidently, whether cocked or not - and whether it is an open, shrouded, or enclosed hammer.

You'll recognize the hammer block, if you ever take a S&W sideplate off... it's the PITA piece that you must carefully align before the sideplate will fit back in place. Your BS meter is well calibrated. That guy reminds me of a nerd who argued with me at the local pusher's lair about many things. He even screamed at me one day, insisting TR's 'Rough Riders' favored the .30-06 '03 Springfield for their rifles as they 'charged' up San Juan Hill in Cuba. I tried reasoning, but somehow the fact that the battle was in 1898, the rifle developed in 1903, and the final round, the .30-06, was developed in 1906, all escaped him - he even screamed at me. His pilfering was caught, eventually, and he left. Another older guy, only there on Saturdays argued that S&W hadn't made a K-frame in years. I tried to show him pg 32 of the current '07 S&W catalog - titled 'Medium (K) Frame' (10, 64, 67, & 617). He walked away dog-cussing me. I don't know why, but many gun stores attract such help. Your BS meter is well calibrated!

Stainz

[jack the toad]

I hate those kind of people, wherever they may be.
They can be quite amusing but also very frustrating.
I think that if they're going to put out that BS (personal feelings. likes/dislikes, etc.) then they shouldn't get mad when I tell them my thoughts of how stupid they are.

[Iggy]

Right now my biggest concern is whether or not the Scandium model is really worth twice the price of the Aluminum one?
I would have to say NO.
Save your money and use it for ammunition.

[JimPGov]

Woodsmoke: Great Catch With The Bs Meter. "hobby Help" In Gun Stores Are The Main Causes Of Fairy Tales Of The Gun World. Jp

[Woodsmoke]

Thank you all. As usual, you guys do not disappoint. I emailed a link to this thread to my wife. More than likely we will go today and purchase the gun.

I am leaning more towards the Aluminum model. The extra $400 is just hard to justify, and it would buy a lot of ammo.

[Dravur]

are like slinkies. They serve no useful purpose, but they bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

[gtmtnbiker98]

while you're shopping check out the 642.

[Quoheleth]

While you're shopping, give Tomball Pawn a call. It's a bit of a drive from where I am (NE Harris County) but their prices are usually significantly cheaper than GM. I've called them once or twice about quotes (bought a GP100 there last spring) and they are hard to beat. And great people, too! Ask for Juan.

Quoheleth

[Carl N. Brown]

his friend shot himself in the butt while holstering his Glock

Anyone who holsters any pistol with his finger on the trigger
deserves to be shot in the butt. Some people learn no other way.

[Guy B. Meredith]

I think it'd be fun to buy something from the guy that he advises against just so he knows that people are calling his BS. As long as the price is good, of course.

[tkendrick]

To be expected:

Major sporting goods chain; looking to hire people behind the gun counter.

You would think their first questions would be about qualifications.

But their first questions will always be: Will you work on Sundays, weekends and holidays?

Question #2 will be: Will you work for minimum wage?

Then during training they teach you to push the secondary sales.

I once watched a young lady (who knew nothing about guns) behind a gun counter start to sell a box of 38 special ammo to a guy (who knew nothing about guns) who had just bought a 380 automatic.

I had to step in at that point. I don't think you could have EVER gotten one of those 38 Special rounds into that gun, but I shudder to think what would have happened had he managed it.

I have turned into one of those grouchy old customers that you sometimes read about here. Unlike some others, I have absolutely no problem looking at a clerk and telling him to his face that he is a f*#&!+g moron, and that if he wants to sell me something he needs to learn to keep his mouth shut, especially when he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Figure one of three things will happen:

1. He'll quit, no loss (you did the store owner a favor whether he knows it or not).

2. Manager will throw you out (hasn't happened yet).

3 Clerk might actually learn something (education hurts, but it's necessary).

I know such a tac is confrontational, and may be considered as not High Road by some, but I disagree.

[Darkness]

Just going to slip a pic in here. S&W internals have been virtually the same for a long time, with some minor changes here and there. One thing that has not changed is the hammerblock safety. Here is a cut-away of a 586 which shows it.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l231/tvannelli_2006/586cutaway.jpg

[Old Fuff]

With the exception of those models that have an enclosed hammer, (the 638 has the hammer shrouded but not enclosed) there are not one but two mechanical safeties. They are mechanical, as opposed to manual, because the lockwork itself works the safeties with no human imput being necessary.

The first is a lug on the rebound slide that retracts the hammer back into the frame after a primer is ignited. After the hammer is retracted, or "rebounds" it is blocked by the rebound slide so that it can't move forward until the trigger is fully pulled.

A second, and independent hammer block moves up between the frame and hammer face and blocks the hammer just under the firing pin.

The system works on all models, regardless if the firing pin is hammer or frame mounted.

You can go to www.smith-wesson.com and download a .pdf copy of the factory's model 638 instruction sheet/manual that explains the safety features, and includes an exploded view drawing that shows the second safety. The first one is part of the hammer, and its there although you and/or your wife may not be able to see it.

You can tell your wife that should she buy it, a model 638 will be completely safe in her purse, even if she makes a mistake and puts it there while the hammer is cocked - and that is highly unlikely.

Send that sales clerk back to some used car dealer... :rolleyes:

[lanternlad1]

Woodsmoke,

I shop at that Gander MTN regularly, and I think I know who you mean. Ignore him. If you want the question answered properly, I suggest you ask the gunsmith who works there. HE knows his stuff. If there IS such a problem, he most probably would be the one to know. (And the gunsmith himself has told me to ignore most of the counter help. There are three or four old-timers in the whole store who know what they're talking about - the rest are yappers.)

And +1 on Tomball Pawn. The best gunstore around, period.

[Ultima-Ratio]

his friend shot himself in the butt while holstering his Glock

There has been a recall of certain Uncle Mike and Fobus holsters for just this exact problem.....btw

[tuckerdog1]

Woodsmoke,

I have to agree with Iggy. The Scandium model doesn't weight all that much less. It can shoot 357s, where the 638can't, but believe me, you don't want to. With the money saved, you could almost buy a 2nd gun for yourself.:D

Tuckerdog1

[Stainz]

Check out 'The 642 Club' on this forum - but any of the three, 637, 638, or 642, will serve you well - and you'll gain good info about ammo, holsters, etc. As suggested, I'd spend the money saved on a plinker - maybe a decent used 66 or 686(+) - and AMMO!

I think it was a year and a half or so back when a local pawn & gun shop had a young lady, tired of feeling threatened in her apartment, came in to buy a gun for protection. The young lady clerk handed the prospective customer her own Glock - after dropping the magazine. The chambered round went off while the gun was in the customer's hand, killing her. That was horrible - she just wanted 'protection' - and she got a careless or untrained clerk. Sure, it was an accident - but an avoidable one. Insisting that all employees there openly carry, as in most gun stores around here, was the ultimate cause - that and the apparent little or no training.

Stainz

[kmrcstintn]

Smith & Wesson revolvers have internals that are opposite to transfer bar systems used by Colt, Ruger, and Taurus; when the trigger is released on a Smith & Wesson, there is a 'blocking' bar that blocks the hammer and will not allow the hammer to move forward and initiate ignition of the primer of the cartridge sitting under the firing pin;

tell the arshole to go pound sand!!! S&W has been making revolvers for several generations and if there was a pertinent problem they would have been sued or regulated into making their equipment safer...they built hammer blocks into their stuff years and years ago and haven't had to change

[JoeG52]

I have to say the scandium model is worh it. That 3 oz makes a BIG difference.

[bigolddeerhunter]

Ahhhhh...the old bait and switch .....I bet the gun he wanted you to buy was more money...right? Texas has laws on bait and switch....I'm not a lawyer, but it almost smells like a dead rat.

[Woodsmoke]

You have all been a great help here.

There were two votes for the Model 642 on this thread so I decided to check them out. I read the 642 club thread.

Not the whole thing of course, but seeing as how I don't think that many people could be wrong I picked this up from Top Gun of Texas today:

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z74/twobentleys/SW642003.jpg

I know you have seen many pictures of the 642, but this one is mine. :D

Well, okay....... it's mine until the purse gets here from Galco. :(

Thanks again, and I will be checking out Tomball pawn soon.

[MCgunner]

his friend shot himself in the butt while holstering his Glock

There has been a recall of certain Uncle Mike and Fobus holsters for just this exact problem.....btw


<sigh> I do not like "safe action" guns. I mean, I ain't gonna get down on people who use 'em, they're just a little not for me because of such problems, that's all. I'd just rather carry a DA/DAO/revolver.

[Troutman]

<<BS Meter Went Off, Need Advice>>

Don’t second guess the meter.


http://oldcatman-3.com/bull****-meter-1.jpg




<<“we should trust his judgment as he plays with these guns all day”.>>

Before you walk away. Play this one on him.


http://joebrower.com/PHILE_PILE/PIX/FR/goFCKyrslf.gif

[one-shot-one]

hand the revolver to him and tell him that if he can hit it hard enough to cause it to fire that you will buy two of the modle he recomends, but if cannot he pays for you revolver! that'll shut him up.:neener:

[Tom Servo]

Nope. Your BS meter looks well-calibrated.

If it's for pocket/purse carry, I usually recommend the 642/442. Reason being, there's no hammer channel for lint or debris to fall into.

[Tom Servo]

Nope. Your BS meter looks well-calibrated.

If it's for pocket/purse carry, I usually recommend the 642/442. Reason being, there's no hammer channel for lint or debris to fall into.

[Alan Fud]

I once watched a young lady (who knew nothing about guns) behind a gun counter start to sell a box of 38 special ammo to a guy (who knew nothing about guns) who had just bought a 380 automatic.
It would be interesting to watch either one of them attempt to chamber a round.

[BeJaRa]

It is amazing what some store clerks/owners will say to you to get you to buy thier product. I went into a small gun shop in SW Florida about a year ago looking for a 357 magnum revolver with a 6" barrel and the OWNER!! tells me straight to my face "Nobody makes revolvers anymore, nobody buys them so they quit making them". I almost lost control of my bladder functions when he told me that, so I responded with a "your full of S*&T" and walked out.

[Neophyte1]

Old Fluff: Sir the 638 that you have recommended;
Outstanding: Best of both worlds. Single or double action
Perfect pocket size {front or back]
I've played with accuracy out to 100 yds. [yeah right]

Idiot behind the counter: Don't insult a used car salesman [I don't know any]
but I'll bet they have more sense. Quote this {get the money, don't educate just get the money}
give this "Counter Waiter" a Broom in a large warehouse thats empty.:)
See if he can figure it out:eek:

More Serious Note: I had considered cleaning up the Trigger; ie making slick, double action lighter, single a little more crisp. In and out of my pockets, in and out the glove box, in and out; you get the picture,
Function first:::::
Leave it alone. Stiff enough that an accident will definitely be an accident.

I have several different CC units, I'll look to take the 638 first.

On long walk abouts I can easily take one in the holster with this in a pocket

[Robert Hairless]

You might want to speak to the manager, explain what the clerk told you, and ask why that store sells unsafe firearms to the public.

[sansone]

gun buyers usually know exactly what they want when they walk in. only time I need to show many guns is when he is buying one for his wife. I guess like a pair of shoes ladies need to see many different styles. It is kinda refreshing because I get to show off my wares. (we luv you ladies) // oh yea: the salesperson should be quiet unless asked a question. this guy mentioned is NOT helpful

[Bear41mag]

If nothing else I would at least tell the manager that as a result of the idot behind the counter he lost a sale to another establishment. And every time you come in to buy a gun, if the same doorknob is behind the counter, you will go elsewhere to buy. I would also send a copy to the coorperate headquaters. That should make him sit up and take notice.

I hate sales persons like that.:cuss: