Real roots of crime


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Stump Water
August 8, 2007, 09:45 AM
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Sun, July 29, 2007

Real roots of crime
Don't blame legal handguns for epidemic of violence

By IAN ROBINSON

A boy named Ephraim Brown was killed recently in Toronto, caught in a crossfire between the vicious thugs who populate large cities.

It is a wicked and sad thing.

I have known parents who have lost a child -- to cancer, to auto accidents -- and despite their indescribable courage, they were never the same again, carrying with them a hole in their hearts that never healed.

But at least they were spared having politicians circle their children's corpses, making political points before the bodies were buried.

Ephraim Brown was killed with a gun. So, predictably, Toronto Mayor David Miller, called for a ban on legally owned handguns, not knowing where the firearm that took this boy's life originated.

Because sometimes criminals steal guns from legal owners and use them for illegal purposes.

This is like calling for a ban on cars because sometimes people hotwire them, drive them through red lights, and take out an entire family.


And this call came despite the fact that to own a legal firearm in this country, let alone a handgun, requires jumping through legislative hoops that beggar the imagination. Occasionally, some nut slips through, but it is so rare as to rival the odds of winning a major lottery prize.

As Sun Media reported in the aftermath of this tragedy, of the nation's 2 million licensed gun owners, between 1997 and 2005, 111 of them used their firearms to murder someone. That's 0.00555%.

At that rate, legal firearms owners pose less danger to society than over-the-counter pain medications, physician malpractice, and indulging in potato chips.

Sssh. Don't tell Miller. I like driving, aspirin, regular check-ups and those chips with ripples that really scoop up the dip.

Less predictable was the viewpoint of ex-politician -- if one can ever be an ex-politician; I think it's like the IRA, once in, never out -- and now Sun columnist, Sheila Copps.

She put the blame for this tragedy squarely on the absence of sports funding.

Yep. Turns out poor families don't spend as much as richer families on enrolling their kids in soccer and hockey. No surprise. Those things cost money. As Copps wrote: "We say we want alternatives to the lure of gangs? Sports teams could provide those alternatives."

And, of course, Copps wants government to pay for it, choosing to ignore the real roots of poverty and crime.

It is understandable why she does this, because Sheila is a feminist, and feminist theory forbids examination of the true roots of crime because it makes them uncomfortable and violates the sacred tenet of their creed, which says men are essentially disposable.

The real roots of poverty for women in single-parent households that foster criminal male youth are simple: Divorce or failure to marry in the first place. The real roots -- which erase race and economic status from the equation-- is the absence of a male in the household.

Michael Tanner of the libertarian Cato Institute, testifying before the U.S. Senate, cited the work of Dr. June O'Neill and Anne Hill for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services who found welfare programs for young, unmarried pregnant women led to an increase in the number of babies born out of wedlock. And that increases in those welfare rates resulted in a lower marriage rate for those pregnant women.

O'Neil also found black kids from single-parent homes were twice as likely to be arrested for crimes as those from black families where the father is present. U.S. figures showed 70% of young offenders of all colours in custody came from fatherless homes as do 43% of prison inmates.

And further, the more single-parent families in a neighbourhood, the more crime.

Truth is, I'm not sure how to fix this. Maybe we shouldn't be paying young women who are dumb enough to get knocked up to have their babies.

Maybe if they didn't have that safety net, they'd remember to take that little pill, or be more discriminating about who they bump uglies with.

Maybe married couples with one income-earner should get a tax break to encourage the essential building block of society.

One thing I'm sure of: Buying a kid a glove and getting him on a team where a coach may have five minutes of one-on-one time with him twice a week is no substitute for throwing the ball around in the backyard every night after school ... with his dad.
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http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Robinson_Ian/2007/07/29/4377333-sun.html

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fletcher
August 8, 2007, 10:09 AM
That was a good article. I like his analogy:

This is like calling for a ban on cars because sometimes people hotwire them, drive them through red lights, and take out an entire family.

ServiceSoon
August 8, 2007, 03:02 PM
I give this article a 10!

ArfinGreebly
August 8, 2007, 03:34 PM
I rather fear this is a symptom of a broader problem

I've seen a number of articles/editorials like this lately, and it worries me that we're seeing this rash of common sense outbreaks.

If this keeps up, the press may one day realize that the bulk of our social problems stem from socialism injected into the public school system by dishonest power-hungry politicians.

No telling where this could lead.

Common sense. Who could have imagined?

glummer
August 8, 2007, 03:41 PM
AG
Have to call you on this:
... social problems stem from socialism injected into the public school system ...
Public schools ARE socialist, by definition. It's inevitable that they eventually show it.

ozwyn
August 8, 2007, 03:45 PM
make me wonder if after decades of losing ground that the pendulum of social thought finally moves towards common sense and gun rights.

hacksaw
August 8, 2007, 03:53 PM
I bet Mr. Robinson is catching an unholy amount of grief from the blinder-wearing members of his "profession"...But bravo for him having the testicular fortitude for standing up tall and taking an unpopular position!

ArfinGreebly
August 8, 2007, 04:12 PM
Public schools ARE socialist, by definition. It's inevitable that they eventually show it.
Well, yes.

Especially considering from whom we borrowed our "public" school system.

However, when I was there and my parents were there the excessively squishy "I'm okay, you're okay," moral equivalence, capitalism is bad, and "don't be a hater" crap were not being taught. Marx was an anamoly. Today he's mainstream.

Thing is, if we wander off into this "real roots" thing, we quickly veer away from on-topic material (guns are NOT the root) and into clearly off-topic material (indoctrination in schools is bad) and pretty soon we are invited to take the topic over to APS.

Which, by the way, isn't a bad idea.

I should look over there and see if we have any "Public Schools" threads suitable for this discussion.

Stump Water
August 8, 2007, 04:28 PM
I bet Mr. Robinson is catching an unholy amount of grief from the blinder-wearing members of his "profession"...But bravo for him having the testicular fortitude for standing up tall and taking an unpopular position!

Mr. Robinson often takes the unpopular position. Which, most of the time, also happens to be the common sense position. I too wonder how he keeps his job. His weekly column is worth checking in on.

Chipperman
August 8, 2007, 04:33 PM
I was with him until he began spounting the anti-feminist crap in the second half of the article. He then lost all credibility-- with me and most of the fence-sitters that might read it. :barf:

Vern Humphrey
August 8, 2007, 04:44 PM
Public schools ARE socialist, by definition. It's inevitable that they eventually show it.
Actually, public schools are communist by definition. The government owns the "means of production," hires and pays the "workers" and operates the system pretty much as a monopoly.

AJAX22
August 8, 2007, 04:50 PM
I've always wondered what the social outcome would be if steralization was a prerequisite for receiving welfare.

Vern Humphrey
August 8, 2007, 04:53 PM
I've always wondered what the social outcome would be if we regarded people on welfare as our employees and required them to go to school, made them responsible for their kids going to school, doing their homework, and so on.

"Mrs. Smith? Your little Johnny got an "F" on his mid-term, so your welfare check will be cut by $100."

ArfinGreebly
August 8, 2007, 05:11 PM
We're drifting . . .

I think the schools/socialism/communism/welfare thing needs to move over to APS (http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/).

Really.

I think we can all agree that GUNS ARE NOT THE ROOT CAUSE OF CRIME.

The rest is off-topic for THR.

RNB65
August 8, 2007, 05:15 PM
Poverty, a broken educational system, and lack of economic opportunity are often cited as root causes of violent urban crime (which is increasingly spreading to the burbs and rural areas). I say rubbish. They may be mildly contributing factors, but they're not the root cause. The root cause is that there is a segment of the population that simply rejects the social norms and values that define our society. They make their own rules and values which are as contrary to the accepted standards as they can make them. They fully embrace a lifestyle based on thugry and violence and all the $$$ in the world isn't going to fix the problem.

Vern Humphrey
August 8, 2007, 05:21 PM
We're drifting . . .

I think the schools/socialism/communism/welfare thing needs to move over to APS.

Really.

I think we can all agree that GUNS ARE NOT THE ROOT CAUSE OF CRIME.

The rest is off-topic for THR.

I thought the title of this thread was "The Real Roots of Crime." Am I missing something?

ArfinGreebly
August 10, 2007, 02:44 AM
I thought the title of this thread was "The Real Roots of Crime." Am I missing something?
Yes.

The title of the sub-forum is General Gun Discussions.

While "roots of crime" is kind of related, in a "thigh bone connected to the wrist bone" sort of way, crime is not guns. Education is not guns. Politics is not guns. Economics is not guns. Parenting is not guns.

The farther we wander down the road of "so, why DID Cain kill Abel?" the farther we get away from guns.

The article in question points out that "guns are not the root of crime" and postulates that something else is.

If we go off discussing that "something else" we lose relevance.

Over on the Armed Polite Society, this is a perfect topic.

That's why Oleg put APS out there. So we have a place to talk about stuff like this without diluting the THR forum's primary purpose.

Therefore, I move that we take this discussion over to APS and enjoy it there.

Vern Humphrey
August 10, 2007, 11:56 AM
I thought the title of this thread was "The Real Roots of Crime." Am I missing something?

Yes.

The title of the sub-forum is General Gun Discussions.
And it's posted on the Internet. But the subject isn't computers, now is it?

If the subject is objectionable, close the thread. Otherwise, the participants are free to explore the subject as it takes them.

fletcher
August 10, 2007, 12:00 PM
In my view, this is pretty gun-related. It's an article on how guns are not the cause of crime, which I think we can all agree on.

Although posting it here is preaching to the choir, it's refreshing to see an article such as this being run.

doubleg
August 10, 2007, 12:46 PM
The real roots of crime are bad parenting and not having something to channel your energy towards.

Geno
August 10, 2007, 12:59 PM
I must have posted this a dozen times now:

How to Lie with Statistics

It is an old, old textbook. It is the textbook which many of the contemporary politicians and media commentators read in their youthful heyday and in college. Seriously! Now, the examples in the text are sadly out-dated, but comical. What is sad is that the facts of perverting statistics is as-prevalent today-as it was when this textbook was first written.

Doc2005

JLelli
August 10, 2007, 01:02 PM
I was with him until he began spounting the anti-feminist crap in the second half of the article. He then lost all credibility-- with me and most of the fence-sitters that might read it.


Oh, really? Why is it, then, that every major feminist organization, without exception, favors total firearm prohibition?

Chipperman
August 10, 2007, 01:43 PM
I won't disagree that the majority of Feminists are Anti-gun. My point was that what he said, and how he said it do not help our image.

Maybe we shouldn't be paying young women who are dumb enough to get knocked up to have their babies.

Maybe if they didn't have that safety net, they'd remember to take that little pill, or be more discriminating about who they bump uglies with.


Anyone who is going to sympathize with the woman here is then going to look with a jaded eye at everything else in the article, and conclude that guns are bad because the guy who likes them hates women.

RNB65
August 10, 2007, 01:49 PM
The real roots of crime are bad parenting and not having something to channel your energy towards.

If only it was that simple...

doubleg
August 10, 2007, 02:03 PM
Ha well from what i've seen they are the two main causes. You don't see very many people on the block at 2 AM that have parent(s) that actually care about them and are doing something during the day.

ptmmatssc
August 10, 2007, 03:39 PM
Hunter safety (regs , firearm safety etc etc) was an actual class at the school I went to . It counted as a credit toward graduation . The class was even taken on a "field trip" to the range to shoot and get more familiar with their firearms . The school itself is always ranked within the top 5-10 for the state for education and you'll see parent involvement constantly whether it's sports or academic . Now , we had practically no crime in my area . The majority of what the local PD does is write citations for traffic violations . Actual crime is so rare that it's a big deal when something actually does happen .
To me , the introduction of firearms safety etc , as well as the school developing their own curriculum and having a lot of parent involvement , is a good indication why crime wasn't a big issue in the town . I made it a point to move back there just so my daughter could get an education without the fear mongering done in the other schools over guns .


We actually talked about this in a club meeting recently , and consensus is that the club will again work with the school to hold those 'hunter safety" courses at the school during school hours .

ArfinGreebly
August 10, 2007, 03:52 PM
And it's posted on the Internet.
Wow.

Assumes public access = public ownership.

Not.

It's posted on a forum on a server owned and managed by Oleg Volk.

Now, I notice that we haven't had a mod come by and invite us to take it over to APS, so I could well be off base.

However, in their shoes, I would have done just that.

Tell you what. I'll ask them. If I'm wrong, they'll straighten me out.

fletcher
August 10, 2007, 03:55 PM
I think you may have misunderstood him, Arfin. The way I read it, he's simply saying that just because it's posted somewhere doesn't mean it's on-topic, just like anything posted on the internet (computer networks and all) isn't related to computers just because it's there.

But, as you said, mods have the final say.

Bazooka Joe71
August 10, 2007, 04:04 PM
As Sun Media reported in the aftermath of this tragedy, of the nation's 2 million licensed gun owners, between 1997 and 2005, 111 of them used their firearms to murder someone. That's 0.00555%.



Can someone give me the numbers here in the US?


Thanks

Correia
August 10, 2007, 04:15 PM
Not really general gun, more of an L&P topic, and L&P is temporarily closed.

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