How Many Load 1-Less in Tube?

[CWL]

Y'all,

I was trained to load one or two less shells in a SD shotgun so that I have the option of shell-selection. This gives me the opportunity to drop in and use a slug (I normally load buck) much faster than firing or shucking a shell to make room during an emergency. (I also prefer my semi.)

I'm not worried about being underloaded since I know that actual armed encounters rarely go more than a few shells.

Just curious if others train and use this basic technique.

[Dave McCracken]

Same but different. The "Serious" 870s here are Cruiser Ready but loaded down one to baby the springs. My oldest has been pretty much kept loaded since around 1980, and still kicks butt. Whether it would have done so topped off is a matter of conjecture.

[TN-popo]

I do it for the same reason mentioned by Mr. McCracken...springs. I do this with all my magazine fed SD firearms.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I store it unloaded, with a five round buttcuff. When I grab the shotgun, the rounds from the buttcuff are loaded into the shotgun. this saves the springs and makes it a little more secure.

[Cameron Lamont]

Loaded to capacity

7 in the mag
6 in sidesaddle
6 in butt cuff

Grab and go 19 shells

I would just replace the mag spring if I notice any loss in strength.
I have a couple of replacements on hand.
It is not that I think I will need all 19 shells in a HD situation, but rather that it is better to have more ammo than one needs.
Especially if I have to leave the house and keep moving.

Cameron

[Mannlicher]

I agree with cameron. My shotties are kept filled to the max. Springs are cheap enough to replace every few years. To date, I have not used any shotgun for anything more serious than hunting or target shooting. If I ever did need it though, I want it full.

[Moparmike]

How hard is it to replace a spring?

[CWL]

Y'all,

I understand long-term spring tension conservation, but I guess that others don't teach or train with '1-less' for shell selection purposes.

Here's the reason why:

Suppose in a HD situation, you find yourself facing a BG at the end of a long hallway (say 20 yards). This BG is holding one of your loved ones as a shield but his head is clearly exposed. He appears scared, drugged and desparate...

What if you have your SG fully stocked with 00buck (or birdshot) only? Not much you can do without endangering the loved one.

If you loaded '1-less' and had a slug handy right now (and you have taken the means to pattern & practice with your shotgun/shell choice), this precision shot would not be mechanically difficult at all.

[Moparmike]

I havent given this much thought with a shotgun. However, how many of us could live with the possibility of missing? How many of us could live with having taken the life of or injuring a loved one? I dont know if I could live with either situation (bg taking life or me taking it). Just me.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'd do it without hesitation. If i was too far away, i'd get closer if possible, and load a slug if not.

[Bruce626]

Enough "slug select" drills will deal with the need to come up with a slug quickly, even with a totally full mag... I've done that.

Enough practice on targets with the bad guy's head partially showing behind a no-shoot will build confidence... I've also done that.

I, of course, still question my ability to do what I've practiced when the no-shoot is one of my loved ones, for real... guess I need more practice until there is no question. Until then, ... well, I guess I have to trust my instincts.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Just curious if others train and use this basic technique.

Yes, I do.

[Sir Galahad]

If a drugged-up wacko has a knife to the throat of your loved one, about the time he sees you fiddling aroud with that shotgun to load that slug, he'll see you're up to something and kill the loved one. That ought to open you up a shot.

[Dave McCracken]

In the scary scenario envisioned, a couple things are not mentioned.

First, with any warning at all, the family members are behind me.And armed.

Second, weapons are accessible on all levels of Casa McC. At no time is anyone more than 20 feet from a loaded, ready arm.While I'm the only highly trained all around shooter here, all of us are capable of operating a revolver etc, well enough to lower the threat level to normal.

Third, it's a quiet neighborhood, with most houses here armed. For Md, crime's low...

Fourth, if YOUR residence is not set up with perimeter and entry alarms, or mechanical equivalents, and had no charley bars etc, you're setting aside an oz of prevention and depending on lbs of cure.Security is much more than having some guns and knowing how to shoot them.

[Andrew Wyatt]

If a drugged-up wacko has a knife to the throat of your loved one, about the time he sees you fiddling aroud with that shotgun to load that slug There's a lot less fiddling when you have a non fully loaded tube. sometimes slugs are necessary.

[Glamdring]

Normally my Win 1300 has 5 rounds of Low recoil OO buck in the mag tube (gun is 7+1), there are 5 slugs on the butt cuff.

I doubt I will ever need all five rounds of buck for Goblins. But I do live in the country, my driveway is about a 1/2 miles long and at best LE would probably take 15-20 minutes to get here. I figure I might need the SG for something other than goblins (bulls can get mean for no reason at all, I know a few people that have been attacked & injured by them) and for many things buckshot falls far short.

I also have my Scout rifle next to my shotgun, but SG is safer (shorter ranged) and should suffice for most things.

BTW my Scout has 5 rounds of 150 grain ballistic tips in mag well (chamber empty just like SG) with 5 rounds of 150 grain Fail Safes in the butt stock mag. I keep defensive long guns loaded with varmint loads, but keep a mag's worth of penetrators ON the gun.

[Sir Galahad]

In some homes, particularly apartments, Andrew, if the shotgun was kept completely unloaded, by the time the intruder was heard, you'd not have time to load one round. You'd have time to grab a weapon and that's it. By that time, you're going to want a loaded weapon. If you're a heavy sleeper, you might discover the intruder close by. There is time to grab the weapon and make your play, but little time to load. In a situation where your loved ones are unaccounted for with a thug in the house, a handgun might be the way to go. Flexibility. That's why a good shotgun/handgun combo is a good idea.

[CWL]

Moparmike,

I notice from your tag line that you don't own any firearms yet, and yet you run a firearms website -:confused:

Anyway, about your quandary over the taking of life (or giving up of your own), I think that the serious people here on this forum are aware of the responsibilities of firearms ownership. It will be up to the individual to decide whether they take the shot or not -marksmanship abilities aside.

The decision is definitely NOT left to the BG at this point because, in my scenario, he/she has given up their rights by entering my household and taking a family member hostage. In my house, if a burglar breaks in but then runs, he will not be shot in the back.

Dave MCC,

Not all homes have bedrooms clustered together where they are easily defended, my home has bedrooms separated by living room & kitchen. And although I live in a low crime neighborhood and am on first name basis with all my neighbors, the purpose for this post is for realistic + responsible firearms ownership. I wanted to know how and if people train, and whether they have paid any thought to application of aimed shots beyond just firing buckshot downrange.

[Moparmike]

I notice from your tag line that you don't own any firearms yet, and yet you run a firearms website :confused: Well, I dont have to own firearms to type html and ensure that others are aware of a pro-2nd state club in AR. A firm belief in the 2nd should be good enough. I simply cant afford even a $165 shotgun at this point. Doesnt mean I dont enjoy firearms.

Anyway, about your quandary over the taking of life (or giving up of your own), I think that the serious people here on this forum are aware of the responsibilities of firearms ownership. It will be up to the individual to decide whether they take the shot or not -marksmanship abilities aside.

The decision is definitely NOT left to the BG at this point because, in my scenario, he/she has given up their rights by entering my household and taking a family member hostage. In my house, if a burglar breaks in but then runs, he will not be shot in the back. I comend you on your ability to make the decision like that. I just cant say what my decision would be, especially with a shotgun. I could live with the BG dying, however I dont know how I would react to the taking of the life of a loved one by my action or inaction. I just simply dont know.

[Andrew Wyatt]

In some homes, particularly apartments, Andrew, if the shotgun was kept completely unloaded, by the time the intruder was heard, you'd not have time to load one round. You'd have time to grab a weapon and that's it.


I do not live in an apartment. I do not live alone. as such, i can afford the luxury of having an empty shotgun, because there is at least one CCW holder in the house with a handgun handy.

[Sir Galahad]

I understand that, Andrew. But I'm presenting you with the flip side to the coin. I would tend to think that a mag-fed semi pistol with mag detached but loaded and accessible would be a lot faster to get into play than an unloaded tube-fed shotgun. If you're worried about keeping a loaded gun, the ammo attached to the gun (in a butt cuff) can be considered "loaded" by many states in the Union. For example, in Hawaii, if you drove with that shotgun in your trunk with a loaded butt cuff, they consider the gun loaded for purposes of prosecution. Further, it's kids finding ammo+gun that leads to them playing just as with a loaded gun. It's a good application of old fashioned discipline+punishment that makes them leave things alone they know they have no business touching without permission. You are assumimng a kid hasn't seen a movie where they loaded a shotgun and, ergo, knows how to pull rounds from your butt cuff and load your house howitzer. As I recall, in Cali, the prosecution of persons who leave guns accessible to kids under the law regarding leaving a firearm where kids can get it and then shoot themselves or someone else may not mention loaded or unloaded. It says "firearm" period, as I recall. But leaving ammo and gun will more than likely be called "loaded gun" under the aegis of that law by a DA because once a child loads the gun, there will be no proof that the kid loaded an unloaded weapon or just added rounds to an already loaded weapon. A handgun you can get a touch-key safe for your handgun out of Cabela's catalog and keep your gat loaded inside that. Mossberg also sells an article like that for a shotgun. If kids are a concern, I would say invest in a touchpad lockbox for a handgun or shotgun. One thing that makes me curious, however, is what difference does it make if there is a CCW holder in the house? You don't need a CCW to pack in your own home, even concealed. Anyway, pretty much all firearms in a house are concealed anyway. A CCW is not prerequisite to being able to defend your own home with a handgun. Otherwise, lots of people across this nation in non-CCW situations should just trade their gats in for field hockey sticks.


I think what Mopar is getting at is the accidental shooting of a loved one. Hey, those things do happen. Man has the guts to admit here he doesn't own any fowling pieces and I think that makes him a helluva honest guy. He could've got on here and claimed to own a quad .50 mounted on a half-track, but he didn't. So, I got to admire him in that respect. Man is bringing up a valid point. You don't have to own guns to believe in the 2nd Amendment. As I recall, Rush Limbaugh doesn't own guns, but he defends the 2nd all the time on his shows. Having to own guns to believe in the 2nd is like saying you can't be a deaf or mute person and believe in the 1st. Further, saying he has to own guns to have an opinion is like saying only a combat vet can lead a nation in time of war, and I would hope we all see from history what a bankrupt argument that is. There are lots of antis that own guns---need I name them? cough, cough, Peralta...cough, cough...Feinstein...

[Moparmike]

He could've got on here and claimed to own a quad .50 mounted on a half-track... Oh, hell. If I had known I could have that listed here, I would have. Must have half a dozen of those in the back 40...:D

Thanks Sir Galahad. I have to say though, I thought you fell off of the Bridge of Death when you couldnt figure out your favorite colour.:confused: Did you escape?;)

[Sir Galahad]

Now, don't make me go back and edit my post.:D

[Moparmike]

Stop! Answer me these questions three, and the ability to change your post ye shall see.....:D

1. What is your name?
2. What is your quest?
3 What is...

[Arkady]

Not I...

I keep 7 in the tube (5 buck, with the last two being slugs), and an empty chamber. Nearby is a belt pouch with 30 rounds of 00 Buck and 7 more slugs, and i have two elastic butt cuffs (which slip very nicely on to my forearm) with a little more variety--3 inch Magnum buckshot, #8 birdshot, a couple more slugs, and I'll probably toss a couple of beanbags in there as soon as i find a decent price on them. All of the stuff on the cuffs isn't exactly my first choice, just the spare ammo i had around, maybe it'll be useful for something (I use the 3 inch mags as 'Training Aids' :evil: )

[hutch24]

........the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? :D

[Gordon]

I found a Browning Auto five with 3 rounds in magazine, semi smokeless powder(less smoke) paper shells and the trunk was sealed for 50 years! I fired the gun with no problems!I found a 1911 mag , loaded since WW 1 with 6 rounds(less 1) and the spring still didn't take a set (no I didn't fire those). I think there is something to that less than capacity deal. Especially since my father taught me that they loaded 14 in a carbine mag. In vietnam we loaded 19 in a M-14 mag (first tour) and 18 in a 20 round m-16 mag(2nd tour) . Some of us have more irons in the fire than to keep logs on spring changes for non competition guns ect. ;)

[Sir Galahad]

Ok, now the gloves come off. You know what "MOPAR" stands for? "My Old Pile's Always Rusting".:D Did you hear how great Mopar is? Neither has anyone else.:D Bada-bump-bing! KNow what the difference is between a Dodge-Chrysler product and a bucket of excrement? The bucket! ...the bucket...ahem...the bucket...yeah, well, how ya doin' folks? How about a round of applause for the band! Thank you! I just flew in from Camelot and boy are my arms tired! Bada-bing! Yeah, the little twirp gets it! Howya doing, sir? Is that suit a genuine Sears Roebuck or was the All-Night Mission giving them away with a meal and a cot? Bada-bump-bing! You had to say a nice prayer for the Father to get the shoes with it, too? Bada-boom-bing! You should have wiped those shoes off before you came in here after stepping in that...oh, I'm sorry, those are your socks. Bada-bing! Thanks, folks, I'm here 'til Friday, try the chicken cacciatore, I hear they emptied the animal shelter of cats for it, so it ought to be the cat's meow!

[Moparmike]

I will take my mopar and ROAST any thing you have. I will also take my Benz and not only out do any top speed of anything you have, but also do it more comfortably:D .

Furthermore, not only can I make a decent joke but I also know my favourite colour. You couldnt open for a mime with that material.:scrutiny: :barf:

[FallenAngelAR]

You know what "MOPAR" stands for? "My Old Pile's Always Rusting". Did you hear how great Mopar is? Neither has anyone else. Bada-bump-bing! KNow what the difference is between a Dodge-Chrysler product and a bucket of excrement? The bucket! ...the bucket...ahem...the bucket...

:cuss: Look you vacuous, maloderous, toffee-nosed pervert! (obscure Monty Python reference) My Kick-a$$ Dodge Coronet with the family friendly318 power plant will suffice quite alot better than ANY Found On Road Dead vehicle you can dredge up. Let alone the sporty package that had the 440 Magnum Super Commando!

Thank-you for your ignorance :banghead:

Dylan

[dport]

African or European swallow? :D

But really, how many of us have a hallway that's 20 yards long? 60 feet? I've been in a bunch of houses lately, looking to buy. I can honestly say the only time I've seen hallways 60 feet long were in robber-baron mansions in Newport, RI.

[Glamdring]

CWL: I am ready to switch to slug, but I don't think it is something that is needed quickly. I wouldn't try to handle hostage situations by shooting (specially off hand with fine motor control shot, if I was in a supported position with a scoped SG or rifle then I might) I prefer to explain what their choices are :)

Just like I don't plan to clear a building that I honestly think has armed goblins in it. At least not alone.



***
Thread drift?

So for vicious killer bunny rabbits would you switch to slug? :scrutiny:

[CWL]

Intresting how threads can drift away.

Never thought that I would ever have to suggest the "Holy Handgrenade of Antioch" as the proper means to snuff a killer rabbit.

Anyways, back to my thread: I guess that some people here don't understand that a SD/HD shotgun is actually a precision weapon. It is a long gun and capable of mighty fine accuracy if properly tuned, fed and practiced with. Placing a fist-sized hole (buck or bird) anywhere on target is relatively easy for seasoned shotgunners, having the abilty to add a slug to your arsenal is key.

The guys I learn from are current or retired LEO high risk entry people. From our conversations, never give a BG a chance to use a hostage or increase their leverage. Of course I am getting biased information, but once again, if a BG is has grabbed loved one and is exposing skull, if you have the ability -how would it hurt to shave precious seconds off-of your reaction time to eliminate this threat?

[dport]

CWL,

That is exactly how I was trained to use a shotgun. "Every weapon," I was told, "is a precision weapon." Then we were trained to do hostage shots with an 870 at 7 and 10 yards with 00 buck. However, at home, I use the shotgun as a barricade weapon. If I feel the need to investigate a noise in the house I'm taking my AR or my Glock. The shotty stays in the bedroom.

[Sir Galahad]

A couple wiseguys! A couple critics! Who said anything about a Ford? Mope-ar...

[Cameron Lamont]

If the shotty is kept filled to capacity and cruiser ready... the first movement, when the shotty is picked up, will be to 'pump' a shell into the chamber, from most posters here that will be a buck shot / bird shot load.

Now one would encounter the intruder in the hallway, with the hostage, with one (buckshot load) in the chamber and capcity less one in the tube.

This would then negate the issue of slug selection and a full tube.

On the pump gun the slug would be removed from the sidesaddle / butt cuff and inserted into the tube, the action racked, ejecting the buckshot and chambering the slug.

BOOM! One bad guy minus a head and a very messy hostage.

If the range was sufficient that a shot can be taken with buckshot, like in my home then slug selection is not required.

Many times at the range in practice I have taken head shots with the hostage situation with buckshot (obviously one must be aware of how the gun patterns).

For a nice visual example of this check out the video by Luis Awerbuck "Combat Shotguning or something..." and the final drill completed by the 'inexperienced' shotgunner. He successfully completes a headshot with buck shot on a rapidly moving target holding a child.... with an innocent bystander behind the target, all three are moving and are 3d targets.

Should give you a little confidence in the shotgun with buckshot.


Regards,
Cameron

[Smoke]

Shotgun kept "Cruiser Safe" fully loaded. I can insert a slug idf I'd like or just rack it for a 00.

Holy Grail was the best Monty Python movie ...ever.

Everyone knows Chevrolets are the best.

Happy shooting.

Smoke

[Kestryll]

Okay, you all need help.
MOPAR, Many Old Parts Arranged Recklessly
DODGE, Dead Or Dying Ground Excrement
And yet worse...
FORD, F***ed Over Rebuilt Dodge
:D :p :D :p :D

GM's kick Tush! :neener:

As for the thread, I keep my Mossberg downloaded to 5 rounds of #4 buck in the tube and three 00buck and three slugs in the sidesaddle. I like options.

[AZLibertarian]

I keep a Gunvault in the nightstand with three loaded handguns...Walther PPK (Mrs. AZLib's gun), Browning Hi-Power, and Glock 23. I also keep a flashlight there. Browning is kept ''downloaded'' with some cheap Argentine mag's as I don't worry about these springs. Glock is fully loaded with 10+1 Glock mag's. My expensive hi-caps are kept for use when I travel.

In the gun safe in the closet is an unloaded Mossberg 590. There are six shells on the Sidesaddle and nine on the sling. 00 buck for all. I recently contacted Gunvault about their LongGunVault product and use with a Sidesaddle. I understand they are coming out with a version that will accept a Sidesaddle equipped gun sometime later this year.
http://www.gunvault.com/longgunvault.asp

Personally, I think I'd have a hard time shooting anything at someone holding a knife to a loved one's throat. Regardless of my levels of skills, training, weapons accuracy, I'd still have to overcome the likely dark conditions, shouting, movement, adreneline, and other unknowns to pull off an accurate shot to a BG behind a loved one. I don't think I could do it.

[Guyon]

I really can't see the logic of keeping a completely empty shotgun, unless it's a safety issue where kids are involved. Reminds me of my friend seeing my 9mm in the dash. His first question was, "Is it loaded?" My response? "Of course it's loaded. Otherwise, I just paid $400 for a nice rock."

I'm not a light sleeper. If brought out of a deep slumber (most likely by my wife shaking me...I count on her for my "ears"), the last thing I want to have to face is loading six shells into the SG. I keep the chamber clear so that I do have to make a conscious choice to load the gun. Also, as many have pointed out here, that racking sound may be enough to make an intruder decide to vacate. Most intruders are there for your stuff--not to press an engagement and take your life.

In response to the original question, I download by one--not so much for the springs, but so I can do a tactical load of a slug. The likelihood of this action is slim to none, but I keep the option open anyway. Boy Scout in me, I guess.

I'm a little suspect of the notion of springs going bad. Recall a metallurgist and mechanical engineer on TFL posting that, with modern metallurgy, cycling springs causes more wear than simply compressing them and leaving them compressed. Still, because a SG spring is so much longer and smaller in gauge than a handgun spring, I suppose that I also download to avoid any possible "kinks" in the spring.