DSA Ammunition Warning Question...


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enichols
August 9, 2007, 12:45 PM
Hi All,
I was browsing DSA's website today, and in their ammunition warning, they recommend NOT USING...
Any steel case Russian ammunition
Any steel case Chinese ammunition
Chilean 7.62mm that is marked "NATO"
Cavim 7.62mm from Venezuela
CBC 7.62mm from Brazil
Indian 7.62mm from State factory
1970s production Israeli 7.62mm Browning machinegun ammunition

OK, so I have heard stories about the Indian stuff being potentially dangerous, but I've never heard anything bad about the Chilean, Venezuelan, Brazilian or Israeli ammo.

I'm especially worried about the Israeli stuff, because I have probably about 500 rounds of Israeli IMI 7.62 NATO ammo that I don't want to get rid of, but I hadn't heard that it was unsafe to shoot. For what it's worth, the ammunition I have is headstamped IMI 7,62 71 or 72. Does anyone have experience with this ammo? Good? Bad? Ugly?

Thanks,
Nic

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fletcher
August 9, 2007, 12:46 PM
Have you tried contacting them to ask why they do not recommend it? It may be dangerous, but then again, it may just jam frequently.

Deer Hunter
August 9, 2007, 12:48 PM
The only problems I've seen with Wolf .308 is bad QC blows up guns. Poorly loaded rounds, etc.

Mikee Loxxer
August 9, 2007, 02:05 PM
I have shot both Chilean FAMAE and Venezuelan CAVIM in my DSA SA58 with no problem at all. I have probably only fired a couple hundred rounds of CAVIM and maybe 40 rounds FAMAE though. I will not shoot it any more. Obviously problems have been seen with the ammo DSA has listed. The are just covering their butts.

Personally I would err on the side of caution and not shoot the stuff they are listing. The rifle and your face are too valuable.

Grayrider
August 9, 2007, 04:40 PM
The warning stems from experience. We have had guns damaged from shooting ammunition on the list. It is hard to break a FAL, but poor quality control in ammo manufacture can produce rounds that will do so. DSA tries to pass along general warnings to our customers so as to try and save someone losing a quality FAL to cheap ammo.

Of course no ammo is cheap lately....

:(

John

AR Hammer
August 9, 2007, 04:43 PM
China rounds are just plain unsafe.
Bullet diameters way larger than they should be, hot loads, under power or no powder loads, ect.

Korean .30-06 Ammo is blowing up semi auto rifles right and left, and it's not on their watch list.
I personally know of at least 3 M-1 Garands that have been destroyed by Korean ammo, and one Remington semi auto that is now junk because of it.

Russian military packaged ammo has some quality control issues with it, but I've not heard any horror stories about it.

Russian Wolf ammo and the like is another story, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

The issue with Israeli, South African, and South American rounds are they use ball powder.
It's easier to produce and gives the bullets a little more muzzle velocity, but also creates more chamber pressure.

You should be fine with a good quality, properly designed rifle, but if you use some of the Euro trash or Chinese crap, you may be in for an unpleasant surprise...

The problem with DSA is they push FAL's all day long, and the rifle is just at the upper ends of it's limits.
The FAL was never intended to fire a .308 round, and a hot .308 round is dangerous in one...
Build them from 'Kits' with substandard parts and they are an accident waiting to happen!

Bartkowski
August 9, 2007, 05:16 PM
I bought about 300 rounds of 7.62x39 steel case wolf ammo and have shot about 100 of them with no problems, so what do you recommend I do with the ammo.

Bartkowski
August 9, 2007, 05:22 PM
Also could you post the link of the web page you were reading.

Tully M. Pick
August 9, 2007, 05:39 PM
I bought about 300 rounds of 7.62x39 steel case wolf ammo and have shot about 100 of them with no problems, so what do you recommend I do with the ammo.

Send it to me and I will properly dispose of it for you. You certainly don't want to take a chance with that!

jerkface11
August 9, 2007, 05:53 PM
I can understand certain types of ammo not being safe in an M1A or garand. But an FAL has an adjustable gas system so you should be able to compensate for any ammo type. Just close the system so it won't function then start opening it up till the gun runs right.

Bartkowski
August 9, 2007, 06:35 PM
Send it to me and I will properly dispose of it for you. You certainly don't want to take a chance with that!

How would you dispose of it?

AR Hammer
August 9, 2007, 06:35 PM
That's not the problem.
FN's have been blowing the top ends apart with some of this ammo.

Deer Hunter
August 10, 2007, 12:08 AM
The FAL was never intended to fire a .308 round, and a hot .308 round is dangerous in one...


And, yet, it does so wonderfully.

GunTech
August 10, 2007, 12:16 AM
The issue with Israeli, South African, and South American rounds are they use ball powder.

US military ammo uses ball powder too. M80 7.62x51mm ball uses WC-846, which is very similar to BL-C(2) and W-748.

Indian 308 has a wide variety of rim thicknesses, making reliability problematic.

GunTech
August 10, 2007, 12:18 AM
I can understand certain types of ammo not being safe in an M1A or garand. But an FAL has an adjustable gas system so you should be able to compensate for any ammo type.

The adjustable gas system of the FAL has no effect on chamber pressure. It only effects port pressure. The FAL proof rounds are actually lower pressure than US proof rounds, and the FAL locking mechanism is not as strong as that on the M14 and M1 Garand.

308nato
August 10, 2007, 02:03 AM
I have shot hundreds of 762.51 nato rounds of South African, some from
Chile,Portuguese and the Indian through my M1a/M14 no problems so far.
The only gripe I have is it all shoots dirty and I have to always clean it
after each range trip.

db_tanker
August 10, 2007, 07:42 AM
Bartkowski,

ammo you have is designed for an AK and its variants...also you can shoot it in a Ruger Mini-30...to my knowledge there isn't an FAL made (yet) that is chambered in the M-43 round...however that would be an interesting project...but I digress....


D

db_tanker
August 10, 2007, 07:49 AM
heh...as I read that article I can't help but think of Old Dirty on the FALFiles and that recent test that was brought up here about the M1A "torture test"...



Regardless...if a DSA can take that kind of hammering, and they ask you NOT to shoot that listed ammo, I would walk away from it...unless you are a reloader and then you might be able to pull the bullets and measure each powder charge using a good, KNOWN type of powder...perhaps a mil-spec pulldown that is available out there in bulk. Hey...that's what I did with a bunch of my Indian ammo...worked pretty good too. :) The bullets are MOC (minute of chest) but I still got the boxer brass...

D

jerkface11
August 10, 2007, 12:06 PM
Wolf .308 isn't loaded hot. So why do they say not to use wolf?

Deer Hunter
August 10, 2007, 12:08 PM
Because Wolf has poor QC with their .308 ammo.

AZ Jeff
August 10, 2007, 12:51 PM
The problem with DSA is they push FAL's all day long, and the rifle is just at the upper ends of it's limits.
The FAL was never intended to fire a .308 round, and a hot .308 round is dangerous in one...

Your comments confuse me.

Are you suggesting that DSA builds a poor clone of the FAL, or are you suggesting that somehow, all the 100's of thousands of FAL's built and shipped by FN (virtually all in .308)and it's liscensees was some sort of fluke?

Tully M. Pick
August 10, 2007, 01:20 PM
How would you dispose of it?

I will soak the rounds in a deactivation agent, which will render them inert. After doing so, I will disassemble them, and dispose of each component in the manner prescribed on the material's MSDS sheet.

pflug
August 10, 2007, 02:23 PM
I always thought the FAL was designed for 7.62x51 NATO not .308 Winchester

Mikee Loxxer
August 10, 2007, 03:30 PM
AZ Jeff,

The FN FAL was originally chambered for 7.92mm Kurz (similart to 7.62 X39). Of course NATO (with the US at the helm) pushed for adoption of 7.62 NATO (7.62 X 51). This meant that the FAL had had to be upscaled for the large cartridge which in the view of some puts the design working at its very limits.

pflug,

DSA SA58's are marked .308 Win not 7.62 NATO.

Coronach
August 10, 2007, 03:36 PM
I bought about 300 rounds of 7.62x39 steel case wolf ammo and have shot about 100 of them with no problems, so what do you recommend I do with the ammo.Shoot the remaining 200 rounds. ;) I have shot thousands of rounds of Wolf 7.62x39. It's fine. Not particularly accurate, but fine.

The posters talking about free disposal for you are pulling your leg. They will 'dispose' of it by shooting it for you. ;)

Mike

Deer Hunter
August 10, 2007, 03:46 PM
FALs were originally made to shoot 7x42mm, if I'm not mitsaken. Not the 7.92x33. FALs were produced in the kurtz round for testing, but it is not the original round of the FAL.

GunTech
August 10, 2007, 05:38 PM
Interesting info. Do you have a cite?

According to my sources, Dieudonné Saive built the first FAL in 7.92x33 (serial number 1), with encouragement by the British, who were most impressed by the 7.92 kurtz. It's first trials were Nov 21 1947. Tghe light automatic carbine was based on D saives SAFN-49. The SAFN was chambered in all manner of calibers, icluding 7x57 mm, 7.65x57 mm, 7.92x57mm & .30-06.

Details can be found in "The FAL Rifle" , and "The metric FAL" the latter written by R Blake Stevens and Jean E Van Rutten

HorseSoldier
August 10, 2007, 05:57 PM
The suggestion that the 7.62x51 FAL is just some sort of upscaled version of the early 7.92x33 prototypes that is dubiously suited to the larger round is fairly ridiculous. It ignores not only the actual history of the design (which rapidly evolved away from 7.92 Kurtz, first to .280 and .280/30 British and then 7.62x51), but the fact that the production rifles served quite successfully for decades in what? -- 90 armies? -- shooting a steady diet of stuff loaded to NATO spec with no more issues or problems than any other service rifle.

enichols
August 11, 2007, 01:54 AM
OK, thanks for all the information, guys...
My question now is has anyone actually used the 1971-72 headstamped IMI
7,62 ammunition? Does anyone have experience, good or bad, with it?
Thanks,
Nic

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