Appleseed Shoot with and AK?


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Baron357
August 10, 2007, 04:14 PM
Does or has anyone done Appleseed shoots with an AK style rifle (Arsenal, SAR, WASR, Norinco...)? I always hear how inaccurate they are and the point of Appleseed is 500 yards I believe.

Is the AK capable of consistent 500 yard shots?

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erict
August 10, 2007, 04:22 PM
I have 2 Hungarian AMD 65's and I can get about a 2-3" group @ 50 yards. I don't even try to shoot @ 100 yards because I consider it pointless. I've shot other "AK" style weapons with similar results and I know the quality manufacturers have a longer sight radius but I doubt it will perform even decently @ 500 yards.

Someone may prove me wrong though???

GTSteve03
August 10, 2007, 04:24 PM
I hear you can use a 22LR at Appleseed shoots, so I don't think it would be 500yds? :confused:

Baron357
August 10, 2007, 04:28 PM
This is from www.Appleseedinfo.org

What is Project Appleseed?
It's a program designed to train people in basic rifle marksmanship using rack-grade rifles and surplus ball ammo; as well as a program to revitalize the tradition of the Rifleman. Once you become a Rifleman, you'll be able to, with an iron-sighted rack-grade rifle, make head shots at 250 yards, and body hits at 500 yards — all as a result of the 25m marksmanship training you'll receive at an Appleseed shoot, followed by battlesight zeroing at 300 yards.

So it must be like the army where you shoot at 25 meters and the pic on the target keeps getting smaller simulating distance.

Ghost Tracker
August 10, 2007, 04:33 PM
The AK-47s I've shot can barely hit the ocean from the beach! I know, I know...it's the Indian, not the arrow. But really, does anyone pick an AK for accuracy?

Mikee Loxxer
August 10, 2007, 04:35 PM
I would think trying to shoot past 100 yards using anything other than a bench (prone, sitting, standing, etc) with a Kalashnikov would be frustrating at best.

Deer Hunter
August 10, 2007, 04:47 PM
Depends on the AK. There's a huge difference between a Saiga and a WASR.

_N4Z_
August 10, 2007, 10:59 PM
I have a Vector AK that I use quite often. It is nasty accurate out to 100 yards, and decent out to 200 yards.

After that it's only so so.

I have hit a 19" dia. gong @ 300 yards with this rifle on occasion from a sitting position. No bench.

Doubt seriously I would hit anything consistantly with this rifle @ 500 yards.

funfaler
August 10, 2007, 11:03 PM
Most of the instruction done at the Appleseed Shoots is done at 25 meters, this allows for the shooter/instructors to concentrate on the mechanicals of making the shot. Once the mechanicals are mastered, range/time permitting, we will take the shooting out to 300-500 yards, depending on the range.

We had a fella shoot Rifleman score with an AK74 in Carrollton, Kentucky this spring, the first time a CommBloc rifle made the grade.

The Appleseeds are a "bring the rifle you have" type of event. They will teach you how to use YOUR rifle to maximize YOUR performance with it. Many folks have started using 10/22s, usually with Tech-Sights, and some other improvements, for the short range work. The key is for the "shooter" to learn, not to bring a sooped up rifle. It is the shooter, not the rifle that make an accurate shot.

All rifles welcome

What shoot are you going to?

If you have any questions about the program, feel free to PM me, happy to help where I can

General Geoff
August 10, 2007, 11:06 PM
Depends on the AK, I'd say. I would imagine Saigas are a bit more accurate than WASRs/AKMs. At an Appleseed shoot, you shouldn't have a problem, as (at least in the short range part of instruction) the targets are at a real range of just 25 yards. If you were to shoot at targets actually out there at 500 yards, I'm not entirely sure of the success (or lack thereof) you'd have.

Keep in mind that with most rack grade, military style rifles with iron sights and milsurp ball ammo, your gear will still shoot better than you off hand or with a sling. You really need a bench rest or bipod to get down to the point where your gear matters.

_N4Z_
August 10, 2007, 11:39 PM
We had a fella shoot Rifleman score with an AK74 in Carrollton, Kentucky this spring, the first time a CommBloc rifle made the grade.

Of course the Kalashnikov 74 (5.45x39) enjoys the reputation for greater accuracy at longer range than it's older brother 47 (7.62x39). I have the 47 version.

Shooting an AK to 500 consistantly has got to be very satisfying.

colonial shooter
August 10, 2007, 11:41 PM
I hate to disagree with you General. How many times are you going to have that bench with you when you are say... Hunting? The best you or your equipment can be is when used properly. That is why the Appleseeds are important. They teach the basics. Then you get better with practice.

General Geoff
August 10, 2007, 11:54 PM
I'm not sure I follow your logic... the only time I shoot from a bench rest is if I'm zeroing a sight.

A bipod, however, I practice with almost as often as off-hand. I just recently picked up a sling, and haven't had a chance to shoot with it yet.

My point was that the accuracy of the gun is negligable compared to the accuracy of the shooter, unless you're both experienced and have a bench rest or bipod.

eldon519
August 11, 2007, 12:09 AM
I don't think it's accurate reasoning to say the accuracy of the gun is negligible compared to the accuracy of the shooter because they are not separate variables; they are compounding.

If you had a rifle that shot exactly where aimed (perfect mechanical precision) and you shoot 2" groups at 100 yards, when I give you a rifle that shoots 2" groups out of a mechanical rest (zero human error), you and your rifle will now be shooting 4" groups. It's not a matter of the chain only being as strong as its weakest link. Mechanical variation and human error stack upon each other.

funfaler
August 11, 2007, 12:15 AM
The goal of the Appleseed it to hone the SHOOTER thus the equipment is less of an issue. Obviously, if one is shooting off of a bench, it really is more a test of equipment.

The neat thing about the Appleseed shoots, is that they teach the Shooters in positions that are more practical for field use. They also teach the lost art of using a shooting sling. Once I learned how to use a sling properly, I took the bipods off of my FALs, no need for them any more ;)

In the case of the AK, if it is not accurate enough for an Appleseed, it either needs to be worked on or 'culled" from the collection. Most rifles, if in decent shape, should be able to shoot better than 4 moa, which is an accuracy that would allow the shooter to put lead in a 1 inch square at 25 meters, and 4 inch square at 100, and 20 inch square at 500 yards.

thereisnospoon
August 11, 2007, 04:28 AM
Back to the OP question, I shot my first appleseed with an SKS-M. I had a lot to learn about rifle shooting, but still managed a respectable score by the time the weekend was over.

Honestly, shooting an AK out beyond 250 is difficult as the sights on most AK are not as fine as they are on an AR or M1 or M1A, etc, but you can still learn technique, regardless of the rifle, using the methods taught at an Appleseed.

Go, take your Ak and be the second to shoot Rifleman wth it!

Good Luck!

Baron357
August 11, 2007, 09:54 AM
Thanks for all the input guys,

funfaler, I hope to go to a shoot soon but first must buy a rifle, I have a 10/22 but the wife will be using that and I would like either an AK or AR. I am just trying to decide how much to spend.

funfaler
August 11, 2007, 10:02 AM
Hey Baron357,

You are in luck, New England has some loaner 10/22s, with Tech-Sights, for shoots up that way.

PM Nickle for details.

As far as your rifle, if you can get it prior to the shoot, Appleseeds are a great way to 'shake out' a rifle. If you can not get it prior to the shoot, beg, borrow or......well, find one where you can. Remember, Appleseeds are about teaching the shooter how to do their job, so the rifle can do its job, it is not an equipment race ;)

Also, Kids under 21 shoot FREE, so take the young rifle shooters as well.

thereisnospoon
August 11, 2007, 10:29 AM
Baron 357,

If you haven't yet bought a rifle, I would beg you to consider holding out and buying the AR. I am a huge fan of the AK rifle, but the AR has better sights and is easier to learn to shoot well. I am sure all the AK fans will jump in and think I am starting a flame (which I am not), but the facts are the facts. The AR has better sights and is more ergonomically correct for a fighting weapon. Also, unless you're going for a real low end AK47, then a really good AK is around $650.-- and a good entry level AR is only $100.00 more.

Buy an SKS for the Appleseed shoot and put some tech sights on it. This will allow you to maximize your ability, without breaking the bank. Then save for the AR or really good AK, if you want to go Commie.

If you can only afford one, then make it an AR, even if you have to wait and save.

Oleg Volk
August 11, 2007, 10:50 AM
Optics remove the iron sight variation.

_N4Z_
August 11, 2007, 04:23 PM
Is there a website for Appleseed events?

I'd love to go to one with my little AK clone. Sounds like alot of fun.

Baron357
August 11, 2007, 05:17 PM
www.appleseedinfo.com

_N4Z_
August 11, 2007, 07:00 PM
Interesting. I qualified expert a few times with a M16A1 in the Army 20 some years ago.

This is then the same type of "class" that the military provides + sling work etc?

Sounds like a hoot. Thanks for the website Baron.

ndolson
August 11, 2007, 07:04 PM
I can get 5-6" groups at 100m with my AMD 65 shooting from a sitting position, no bench. I think that's pretty darn good considering it's a wire folding stock that is nearly impossible to get a cheek weld on.

I'd say if anything is going to inhibit an AK from being a good long range run (300+ meters) it would have to be the "rainbow" looking trajectory of the 7.62x39 round. I sighted my rifle in at 25m just to get it a "general" zero, and at 75m it was shooting OVER the target.

MartinS
August 11, 2007, 10:06 PM
At 25 meters you have to adjust to hit low, about the height of the front sight over the bore.

Gun Wielding Maniac
August 12, 2007, 01:05 AM
One of the biggest issues an AK shooter has to get over if he expects do do well is the notion that an AK can't shoot well. This is an old and tired nugget that has been passed around for as long as I can remember. Fact is, most AK's I've seen will shoot to Appleseed standards if the shooter does his part. But instead, he mindscrews himself. Everytime a shot is pulled outside that little black 1 inch square he blames it on the rifle and not his slippery elbows and poor trigger squeeze. The reputation allows an "out" that is socially acceptable. Ohhh... its just an AK. That explains it.

The concept of appleseed is, they will teach anyone the fundamentals to make you a better shot. This is independent of the rifle... Therefore, I say, take your "cheap" AK and your 30 rounders and go there with an open mind and a willing heart.

Father Knows Best
August 12, 2007, 10:32 AM
Wow. Those Appleseed shoots sound really cool. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like any are scheduled with a few hundred miles of me.

_N4Z_
August 12, 2007, 11:32 AM
One other thing to go along with the AK "inaccuracy" thing.

Ammunition.

My AK (which is not a WASR, and wasn't exactly cheap) will not group well with Wolf brand Russian rounds. It is the most widely available/economical ammo available in my area. This same rifle, shooting at the same range, with the same nut at the helm, groups pie plate size @ 100 yards when shooting Barnaul (Brown Bear).

Once I figured this out I scored 1000 rounds of BB for 148.00 online and burned off the remaining Wolf in short order. :)

Shot 100 rounds of BB yesterday and just mauled the gong at 200 yards with it. No bench, no optic. That gong laughs at me when I try the same thing with Woof. So yes, shooters ability counts, but the diet your animal lives on is a big factor too.


Ya, I'm in the same boat as you FatherKnowsBest. Nothing even close to my neck of the woods. Maybe next year. :cool:

funfaler
August 12, 2007, 02:06 PM
Wow. Those Appleseed shoots sound really cool. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like any are scheduled with a few hundred miles of me.

The Appleseed shoots are worth the travel. A couple of friends in a car, the trip will go fast and will be inexpensive as well.

The BETTER alternative is to host one in your "home town" that really keeps the travel expenses low ;)

An Appleseed is not tough to host (I did one on my farm), you really only NEED a 25 meter ranges, with a good berm or hill that will stop lead. If it is on a slant, that is fine, if it is in a pasture that is fine. Private land is the best, as we only have to deal with the land owner, not a board at a shooting range and such. It doesn't take too much effort to get a group of local folks to take an interest and help, as well as make the attendence something to be proud of.

I am not sure if we have had an Appleseed in the "Land of 10,000 lakes", but I know that we would be HAPPY to come up to where the Bratwurst and Hockey are King :cool:

Feel free to PM me if you want more information on hosting a shoot. It is fun and rewarding.

Baron357
August 12, 2007, 02:21 PM
Funfaler question for you..

Are these shoots good for first timers too or is it expected that you have some experience?

Gun Wielding Maniac
August 12, 2007, 02:27 PM
Baron, the Appleseed shoots are specifically geared towards beginners.

funfaler
August 12, 2007, 02:34 PM
These shoots are GREAT for first timers! The stuff taught is everything that the experienced shooter should have learned, but 99.9% of them did not, and everything that a new shooter NEEDS to learn.

We have had great success with new rifle owners, kids, women and seasoned rifle shooters alike.

At my shoot, we had a fella that NEVER shot a rifle. He came to the shoot, we spend some time with him, teaching him about his new FAL, how operate and maintain it. Then by the end of day one, he was shooting near Rifleman score. By the end of day 2, he was just 2 points from making Rifleman score, and would have had I been able to score the card ;) He had some developed skills that crossed over from his profession, but he had never shot a rifle, and perhaps never fired a firearm at all.

No doubt, this IS the place for an inexperienced shooter to start, and no doubt, an Appleseed will offer a great deal to the seasoned shooter as well.

I have been shooting all my life, and the Appleseed shooting has given me the skill and confidence to put lead on the target out to 500+ yards, standard rifle, surplus ammo, iron sights, NO bench or bipod, just a sling. We do it all the time now, at a farm with steel plates at 500+ yards.

You will go home, after 2 days of Appleseed a better and more confident shooter.

Baron357
August 12, 2007, 02:50 PM
It sounds great I wish I knew this much about them earlier b/c their is one going on right now in VT.

funfaler
August 12, 2007, 04:00 PM
Yep, and it sounds like a pretty good one, over 20 shooters, so there is plenty of time for personal instruction, where needed. Don't think of it as you are late for this shoot, just early for the next one :banghead:

The good news is that the North East is very active Appleseed country. There is another Appleseed in Jericho, VT October 20-21. They will be happy to see you at that one ;)

Nickle is very active up there as well, perhaps even some "mini-Appleseeds" could be going on throughout the year. They are just one day, 5-8 hour clinics, but worth the time.

Good luck,

Nickle
August 12, 2007, 11:04 PM
Baron357, what part of New England are you in?

We have a Mini-Appleseed program going in Harvard, Mass (contact crak at appleseedinfo.org, or northeastshooters.com), and a weekly program going in Proctor, VT (where we just held the Aplleseed this weekend), (contact GMB74 at appleseedinfo.org or FALFiles.com). Proctor has been running an AQT program for at LEAST 4 to 5 years now.

Like the man said, there's another one at Jericho, VT this fall, 20-21 October. We'll be on a full distance range, and hope to do a full distance AQT.

How's your shooting at 400 yards?

To the gentlemen with AK's, don't sell them short. I have an "AK" that will shoot 1 MOA groups or so, with handloads. Of course, it's a 7.62, but bigger than 39mm long (7.62x54R). Yes, the AK-74 shoots much more accurately than the AK-47's. Ammo is the biggest part of that equation, both quality and ballistics.

sandanbob
August 13, 2007, 01:41 PM
I see that Nickle was online last night. I got home around midnight, and after unloading the car, I got ready to hit the hay.

As someone who has has firearms since he was 12, (I am 40 now, but a young 40) I can say that the Appleseed is worthwhile for beginner or more experienced person. I had never had any formal instruction, and very little informal instruction. So, I was shooting at cans and paper targets, with no real plan on how to get better.

In addition to the instructions on making the shots, they also explained how to interpret those shots. 'The target doesn't lie.'

I drove 5-1/2 hours each way for the weekend, and would attend another one (though, hopefully closer to home.) So, if you have the time and ability to attend, please do so.

Regarding the loaner rifles- I believe there are five Ruger 10/22s in a couple configurations (sights.) Three have the Tech Sights, and two have optical sights.

And, even if all you have is a Marlin Model 60, you can do an Appleseed. Loading may have it's own challenges, since you don't have removable magazines, but they will work with you on that.

funfaler
August 13, 2007, 04:32 PM
Hey Sandanbob,

Thanks for the review and letting us know how your Appleseed went.

It is good to hear first hand from the folks that have been there and have experienced the improvement and atmosphere.

Hope to see you at a future shoot, with a bunch of shooting buddies ;)

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