Big Shotgun of Enormous Doom

[Nolo]

Okay, I'm trying to design a more powerful combat shotgun. A normal 12-gauge shoots about eight 000 buckshot balls. I want to increase the capacity of 000 in my shotgun to about 16-24 000 buckshot balls. Which is alot. I know. And I know that is probably an unrealistic setup. I know. But I have my reasons for wanting such an unrealistic system, so bear with me.
Anyway, I started with the 40mm M79's canister loads (of buckshot, I forget their designation), and I worked from there. What I've come up with is a 40x45mm buckshot load, and I was wondering: for a cartridge of that size, do you think it would be better to have a rimmed or rimless case?
By the way, the shotgun is a semiauto, so think about that when you answer.

[ArmedBear]

Sounds like a golldurn pea-shooter. Get a REAL gun, with a REAL load in it.

http://www.wolfcreekinc.com/shows/images/bab_puntgun_1.jpghttp://www.thelegendbegins.com/punt_standing.jpg

Video of one being fired: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kdG2dwNb60

[Avenger29]

16-24 00 buckshot balls.

Well, the 3" shells typically load 15 00 pellets. I have no idea how much the 3.5" shells load.

[owen]

ouch

[Nolo]

No, it's not 00, it's 000. Triple-ought. My error.

[Nolo]

And I was still wondering whether it would be better to use a rimmed or rimless design. I should mention it feeds from a tubular magazine.

[Cosmoline]

It will probably make things easier if you make it rimmed. Assuming your action is some upsized version of an existing semiauto, you can just make a bigger version of a shotgun shell. And you'll probably find function and maintenance a lot better and easier with the rim on. Rimless has some advantages for magazine feeding firearms, but all the really big boomers I can think of use rimmed. Certainly it's a natural fit for a tube magazine.

[Nolo]

That's good.
It basically is an upscaled semiauto (actually heavily based on the Auto-5), but the round is of significantly different dimensions. It is short and fat (like I said, 40x45mm), to aid with patterning and allow a higher tubular magazine capacity.

[Nolo]

It's now 38x45mm.

[Cosmoline]

If you don't have a rim you're going to have to headspace on the shoulder or the lip or some kind of band, and I suspect that would be tricky with a squat cartridge like that.

[Nolo]

Rim it is, then!

[jonjon1885]

soooo.... you haven't yet told why you wish to punish your self yet with such a punishing sounding load

[rkh]

^^

I seriously suggest you try firing some 12 gauge magnums before you waste your money. A gun that's painful to shoot is not one that you will adequately practice with.

[Nolo]

Waste what money?
Who said I was going to spend any money?
I have fired 12 Gauge Magnum loads (3 and 1/2 inch, 00 buck), and they hurt, if I fire them enough. I think I've also fired a 10 Gauge, but I'm not sure, it could've been a 12, 3.5 inch.
As for why I am doing this, I haven't told you for a good reason. Nothing stupid, like I don't want anyone stealing my ideas (anybody can come up with an oversized shotgun!), but there's a good reason.

[Jorg]

I have a feeling this is going to be like your "perfect" rifle cartridge you shared in Rifle Country that had amazing ballistics, but the chamber pressure exceeded the yield strength of most steel alloys.

A 38mm bore would be larger than a 1 1/2 gauge. 24 000 pellets would weigh 1632 grains, more than double the weight of a .50 BMG slug.

[Nolo]

No, I think I've fixed everything with this one. It's essentially the same concept as the M79 Buckshot round. And I'm going for a very specific goal here, and I care much less about size.
Besides, we did actually get the perfect cartridge in Rifle Country. This is an entirely different animal.
Plus, I'm not trying to push that lead at 3,200 fps (like a .50 BMG), I'm going for normal shotgun speeds (and speed is easier to obtain the larger you get, learned that in my UCR thread, too), i.e. 800-1200 f/s. More on the 800 f/s side. The shot doesn't have to go more than about 30 yards.

[Nolo]

Here it is, all finalized and sparkley:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/38mmShotgunRound000-1.jpg
If anyone has a pictures of the M576 buckshot round in cross-section, I'd really appreciate a look at it. They figured out how to get good pressure, and I want to be sure my round has the proper pressures.

[2TransAms]

Uh...are you designing this round with MS Paint?

Kidding aside,are you just designing specs for this shotgun or are you actually going to build it?

[Nolo]

And, just for sheizes and gekickers, here's the round in a real-life color scheme (note the aluminum hull):
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/38mmShotgunRound000RL.jpg

Yes, I designed this round with MS Paint, it's really the only thing I use to render rounds. First I draw them with pencil and paper, then I take the specifications and create them in Paint.
And, if I ever get the chance, yes, I will build this shotgun. But I fear the chance will be quite a ways off...

[Deer Hunter]

Don't get discouraged. I never thought I would build my double barrel pump action dream shotgun, but it's leaning against the wall in my room as I speak, ready to get a forend designed and attatched to it.

Go for it. When you strip away all the serious issues that firearm ownership places on its owner's shoulders, all the politics, tactics, and training, you're left with one indisputable fact: Boomsticks are fun as hell. And in your (and mine as well) case, they're even more fun when you dream of it yourself.

[Nolo]

Oh, man.
You have a double-barreled pump?
Do you have a picture of it?
I once designed a double-barreled automatic (and I mean automatic) just because I could.
It was an 8-gauge, blowback monster that fed from a split drum (one half of the circle fed one barrel, the other half fed the other). It would've worked, too. Well, I'm not sure anyone could have fired it without a tripod, but it would have mechanically worked.
I designed it for the sole purpose of filling the air in front of it with lead.
I called it the Cornpop Raccoon. It's sort of an inside joke between my friends and I.

[Nolo]

I think this version of the round would work better, it takes more from the M576:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/38mmShotgunRoundV2000.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/38mmShotgunRoundV2000RL.jpg

[Deer Hunter]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=280902

It's not done all the way, as I have a different LH barrel on the way and I'm still in the process of ordering the material (louisville slugger) for the forend and I need to do a little work to the buttstock, but that's it in a very crude (but functional) form.

[Nolo]

Interesting.
Alot less ugly than I was expecting.
Still an ugly baby, though.
But I love it all the same.
I'd have combined the receivers if I had the machinery. And I'd have made it have a double trigger assembly (like a real SxS), and I think I figured out a way to have the forend work.
Either use a vertical forend or you could take one of the ribbed Mossberg forends (a couple of other shotguns have them too) and shaved it down and attached it. I'm not sure that'd give you positive control, though.

[Deer Hunter]

You'd be sacrificing the strength of those forends by trying to saw them up and make them fit. That's why I'm fabricating my own. And any attempt to attatch the receivers internally would sacrifice the strength of them, which I didn't want to do. You gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.

Now get this thread back on topic, it's your thread, not mine.

[Nolo]

Hehehe.
But you wouldn't have to chop up the vertical forend. just get one off a rifle.
Anyway. The design for my cartridge is finished, I believe. I can shove 8 of those suckers in a shotgun as small as 15" (for the barrel), and they pack more power and better performance than a 12 gauge at short ranges. The work on that, I think, is effectively finished.
Now to the actual shotgun. Well, okay, I'm gonna go draw it and then go to bed, so tomorrow, I will get to the actual shotgun.

[Gordon]

I stacked 14 of .36" (000) balls into an Alcan 3.5" 10 gauge hull with a BP wad and a load of powder for a 2 1/4 oz shot charge. But I have yet to work up the courage to fire them in my Coach gun or my BPS.

[Nolo]

Tell me how it works out.
I'm very interested to know...

[jonjon1885]

yes but seriously why on gods green earth would you WANT to do this? what practical application could it server other than giving your chiropractor a lot more money from you?

[Nolo]

Why? Because I can. That's all the reason I would need. Seriously, I "need" this the same way those guys "need" that big punt gun. i.e., I don't. Do I want it? Hell yes! It'll shove a massive wall of lead at anything I point it at, and that is sufficiently awesome for me.

[jonjon1885]

you know thats all we wanted, you could said that from the beginning with out being so mysterious about it. could have said " hey how can i make a round that will throw 2lb of lead down range and dislocate my shoulder while i do it just for the hell of it cause i like pain and i can" lol i would have taken that just fine

[Nolo]

Ah, well, that's really not why I'm doing it. Sure, I want to build the actual weapon someday, but the reason for the weapon is different, and a little weird. In short, it's for a videogame I'm in the process of designing. Now, in videogames and movies and such that I design for the future (I hope to go into media when I'm older), I make sure everything is actually physically possible. Hence, why I'm doing this. Why was I so mysterious about it? The last time I said the word "videogame" on this forum, I was bombarded with "videogames aren't reality!!! Blargityblargblargblarg!" Hence why I held it until I got the information I needed.

[jonjon1885]

hell thats damn respectable reason for it then, kinda cool really. A real weapon for a vid game that is also outlandish. Kinda like how the movie shooter has reality as far as the guns go. Hollyworld isn't too keen on reality espesally when it comes to guns, but thats the la la land of the peoples Republic of Kalifornia for you.

[Nolo]

Yeah. I mean, I'll look at videogames that I'm playing and I'll point out all the things that are wrong with the weapons on them. I'm going to design media when I'm older anyway, so I just figured I'd get this idea out of the way. It just seems that every time I mention the words "video game" I immediately lose any attention I had gained.

[saltydog452]

i wonder if the metalurgy of line throwing or harpoon guns would be some sort of indicator as to the strength needed...

salty.

[Nolo]

Huh? Sure, the weapon will have to be a strong one, but I don't think it'll have to be that strong.

[saltydog452]

there are, or were, line throwing guns that are shoulder fired.

[Nolo]

Oh, I see what you mean. This shouldn't be any stronger than an 8 Gauge (which I know is very strong), and I couldn't see it really approach the power of a 4 Gauge.

[GigaBuist]

Ehh... if you do build this you might want to run the idea passed the BATFE first.

[Nolo]

That's a no-brainer.
But it'll be a while.

[Dave McCracken]

I hate to have to splash the icy water of reality over the flaming bonfire of imagination here BUT....

Many folks require a good bit of training before they are effective with a mere 12 gauge semi auto. Deploying the fine bit of free flow thinking shown here would take more muscle than Ahnold in his prime and more training than our military gives.

BTW, in days of yore I got to fire the buck round from a MM-79. The only time in my life where firing something gave me bad dreams afterwards. And I was in my prime and well used to recoil.

[Nolo]

Sure. I don't intend to build it until I can, and even then, I'll probably fire it from a mount.
And I am used to 12 gauges from a semi.

[Quiet]

During the 1990s, China Lake Naval Weapons Center was working on a pump-action 40mm grenade launcher. Don't think it got passed the prototype stage, but you could base your shotgun off of that and just use the 40mm "buckshot" rounds in it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/NATIC.jpg

[PTK]

That looks like a Mossberg 500 made for Hellboy.

[Nolo]

Yeah, I've seen that one before, It helped inspire this weapon.

[Sam Cade]

Folks, y'all do realize that Nolo is a kid right?

[jonjon1885]

Folks, y'all do realize that Nolo is a kid right?

yeah so what if hes 16. I"m sure that sam colt was young when he was inspired too, who knows maybe nolo will be the next great gunsmith/inventor its never good to squash a person based on their age.

Maybe in 20 years we will be on this board saying "wow i just picked up a NIB NOLO model 29 in .44mag and 6in bbl, OH MAN its a tack driver !! OMG "

point being you never know.

[Nolo]

I think he was referring to all those people talking about me building this sucker, which I thought was quite amusing myself.
What you say is true, though. Kalashnikov tinkered with stuff as a kid, and Browning loved looking at stuff.
I would build it if I could, but... I don't think I'd have the courage to fire it without a mount.
I also like to take it as a complement to my efforts at being well-spoken. People listen to you when you don't type like a third grader and when you spell things correctly.

[cameron.personal]

What the hell is going on in this forum?

[Nolo]

Cameron, The Hell is exactly what is going on in this forum. Really, though, I think it's pretty clear. I hope it is, anyway. If you read the whole thread, I think you'll understand.

[taralon]

So, basically a semi-auto version of:

http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl27-e.htm

[RancidSumo]

Well when you make this video game, put me on the pre-order list. I love shooting games from Halo to Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six. If you have Xbox Live and want to play hit me up. Gamertag is same as user name.

[Nolo]

Ah, unfortunately it won't be out for several years at least.
And I don't have Xbox Live, because I don't own an Xbox (either of them). Nothing personal, I'm just poor.
Got a Gamecube, though. ^_^
I think this weapon would operate at higher pressures than a slide-open grenade launcher, but I don't really know.

[RancidSumo]

Well ****, make two of these guns, keep one sell one, buy an Xbox. All you need is a way to make two freakish never-before-seen guns with an new cartridge type. Should be easy.

[Deer Hunter]

Why should it, Nolo? I figure if you're using 40mm grenads as your base, it should work at around the same pressures, especially if you're launching 000 buckshot.

Also, here's a better name for the gun: Big Shotgun of Enormous Happiness.

[RancidSumo]

Or big shotgun of enormous pain. It would be cool anyway and I might buy one just to watch my friends and my brothers shoot it...

[Nolo]

I like Big Shotgun of Enormous Happiness. We could replace the buckshot with lollipops and spread joy to all the little girls and boys.

[Kalashnikov]

You still have prints/drawings for your automatic 8ga?