[unrealtrip]

I came back from my Knoxville BLM trip early for reasons which I will mention. This is a very long read, but I wanted to be detailed about my experience and what I took from it.

At the bottom is a link to a photo gallery of all of the pictures I took. I recommend you take a look. If this place was closed to shooting tomorrow I wouldn't be surprised.

-----------

My plan was to find some BLM land that could fit a few needs. I wanted to do some four wheeling, camping, shooting and maybe some hunting. The Knoxville BLM seemed to fit the bill perfectly based on what I'd heard and read about it. I checked the CA BLM website first to make sure I knew what the rules were with regard to where I could off road, where I could camp and if fires were allowed and where shooting/hunting was allowed. Camping is more or less allowed wherever you want, but no campfires outside of the concrete firepits at the Lower Hunting Creek campground area. Four wheeling rules were standard fare, stick to the trails and the shooting rules were somewhat clear. Hunting is allowed as is target shooting anywhere that does not say "no shooting" on the PDF map they make available. What isn't clear is how large of an area is protected from shooters and hunters, there is just a spot on the map with an asterisk. Otherwise the map had a "pistol range" marked on it, and the shooting rules were pretty basic, pick up your brass, bring your own targets and clean up after yourself. No problem.

When I arrived at the south entrance I started driving in on the dirt road, which is technically a county road and what's the first thing I see? The "rough road" sign is riddled with bullet holes. This sign is about 2feet from the country dirt road and about 40feet from the paved street.

http://www.secretreality.com/knoxville/001.jpg

Lovely I'm thinking to myself, my expectations dropping a bit. As you crest the ridge, there is a BLM sign with posted rules and what not as well as direction to the campsite. Since it was my first night and I got in later than I planned, I figured I'd just camp there and find someplace nicer for my second night.

The campground experience:
As I pulled into the campsite Thursday evening, not expecting to see anyone, there were two longbed trucks with a large canopy arrangement. They had either been there for some time, or were planning to from the looks of it. The first thing I see is a guy wearing a blue shirt that says "PETA" on the front in large white block letters. Christ you've got to be kidding me, these guys are camping out here? There are only 2 other campsite areas available, one with a few picnic tables that looks a little nicer than the one with only 1. I pull up to the one with a few, leash my dog and jump out. The guy with the PETA shirt starts approaching in a slow and oddly careful manner, which I later discovered was due to his state of supreme drunkeness, but when he sees my german shepherd starts doing the seig heil nazi arm thing and yelling something at us. My first thought was jesus, I'm out in no mans land next to some crazies and my gun is still locked up. Gee whiz, I guess I wasn't going to find solitude midweek here.

I greet him and try to be polite, he wants to sit down and bs about things so I oblige him. His PETA shirt actually said in small print people eating tasty animals. He kind of weirds me out with the stuff he is talking about and he goes on to say we could feed the world with the number of dogs we put down. He also keeps staring at my dog saying how great a dog she is and what he could do with her. At this point I'm thinking, ok get the f*ck away from me. I know you're drunk, but something has short circuited here. I met his friend, seemed like a nice fairly normal guy, although the next morning he had a huge basket of golfballs which he was driving up the hill. Due to the volume, I'm assuming he had no intention of picking them back up but I could be wrong. Also in all fairness, the drunk dude, I'll reserve mentioning names in case someone knows him, was a nice guy the next day. He was just kinda weird when he was trashed, but then again... maybe so am I lol.

Land conditions:
Campground
Anyway, the campsite is one of those no shooting zones for obvious reasons and it is even posted there, however it looked like something out of a third world country battle zone. I don't know why I didn't take any pictures, but it was a mess. The toilet was about the only thing that didn't have bullet holes. The concrete benches, garbage cans and firepit with riddle with craters from bullet impacts. The metal guard to prevent people from driving off was filled with holes and the trail marking sign was so shot up you couldn't even see what it said. I wouldn't bring my family there.

The next morning I broke down camp and decided to make like a tree and headed out toward the "pistol range." Now I need to mention a couple of things real quick about the area. 1- There is a lot of private property there, so much in fact that every time you round a corner you're seeing signs that say posteed private property, no trespassing, etc. and 2- while you can gather from a topo that the land is hilly, what you don't see is that it is almost entirely exposed in spite of the trees and there is extremely thick ground cover making it virtually impossible to just hike off trail if you felt like it, so the amount of land you can actually use is much smaller than what you see on the map. Nearly everything south of the campsite was private.

Pistol range:
Anyway, driving to the pistol range I see garbage. A can here and there, a beer box, tp, you name it. I was going to pick some of it up, but there was just too much to deal with so I ignored it and all the private property signs and pressed on. When I rounded the corner to the pistol range, this is what I saw.

http://www.secretreality.com/knoxville/pistol001.jpg

http://www.secretreality.com/knoxville/pistol002.jpg

http://www.secretreality.com/knoxville/pistol003.jpg

See the rest of the pictures here. (http://www.secretreality.com/knoxville/gallery/)

I guess some people missed the rules section that says pick up casings and clean up after yourself. Well, I did come to shoot so I set up my target and shot some .45 and moved back a ways and shot my .22 rifle for a while. I made sure to bring home all of my spent casings and when I couldn't find my own, I filled the spot with someone else's.

Trails
After leaving there I decided to wheel around a little and without getting into too much detail, just about everywhere I looked there was trash and left over targets. There were a few areas where it just looked like a junkyard there was so much crap piled up and shot apart. Old tv sets, appliances you name it. You know why shooters get no respect? Because they have none. It was sad.

I know this is way too long so I'm going to try to wrap up quick here. South of the campsite on the left side of the road was an area that allowed for some pretty long shots, it too was a junkyard. Oddly enough the bulk of the visible casings laying around were from shotguns, even in the long range area. Anyway I kept driving, seeing pockets of spent casings at the side of the road every so often. And more or less, the entire road on both sides had private property signs and the areas that didn't, as it turns out, were also private property as I was so politely informed by a local landowner who saw me casing my .22 after a missed opportunity at a jackrabbit.

http://www.secretreality.com/knoxville/gallery/images/IMG_1468.JPG

I could not imagine heading out there to go on a hike, aside from the fact that every scenic area is riddled with litter and looks like a warzone I'd be afraid of getting shot either by accident, or on purpose. I'm glad I was there mid-week and there wasn't really anyone around, I can't imagine that place on a weekend.

The land abuse was rampant.

Shooters are entirely to blame.

See all the pictures I took here. (http://www.secretreality.com/knoxville/gallery/)

[striker3]

Disgraceful.

That is all I have to say about that crap.

[KelVarnson]

That is sad, indeed. I have witnessed similar conditions around my neck of the woods, up on Cuesta Ridge, in particular, and as a result, those areas have been closed.

About the only thing that could work would be if a local gun club could "adopt" the site, go in and do cleanups, and have enough members so that the range was frequently populated with people who DO care, and might say something to others who might be about to leave that blown-up TV carcass behind.

On the other hand, it would be pretty uncomfortable to try to play nanny to a bunch of armed yahoos.

[doubleg]

Never knew there were a a lot of drunk cowboys in California. Ya learn something new everyday. :D

[JamesM]

Maybe the shooters were just shooting at the trash other people dumped…… The outrageous dump fees in CA have resulted in a huge increase in illegal dumping. In reality it is probably a combination of both. Sadly, these are the type of people who give gun owners a bad name. Since we can’t stop them from doing it (other than restricting ourselves as well), all we can do is to try and salvage our good reputation by cleaning up as much as possible each time we visit a place like that. Whenever I go to a range like (even to find that it is closed for shooting) I still take the time to pick up as much trash as I can. I think it is funny how environmentalists are not making a big fuss about illegal dumpers. Posting “no dumping” signs doesn’t seem to solve the problem. Who would have guessed?

[larry_minn]

Sorry to hear it. A (option) would be to get a group to clean it up and then set up some vidio survalience. Catch the POS on tape and turn them in.

[Zoogster]

I have the same experience many places. I do not post it because it feeds the "we should get rid of legal unsupervised shooting" flames. They do this stuff where guns are illegal too. I have gone by signs in all matter of locations in no man's land and seen signs riddled with bullet holes.

People are just animals now, so used to being kept in line with very strict formal controls in cities that when they get out alone they have little self control.

I would refrain from making a big deal of these things unless you want no free places to legaly shoot.

What do I do? Well even when I am in sucha place, riddle with bullet holes, with trash all over, I bringa trash bag, pack out what I brought and shot, and stay very leery of anyone I see. You are the only law and you and who is with you are on your own. I personaly don't socialize and move on if I see others.

[fatelk]

It looks a lot like that up in the hills where I go to shoot on occasion too. Seems the world is full of slobs. I was raised different, and seeing that kind of abuse makes me mad. What is going through someone's mind when they take out an old TV, blast it to pieces, and leave it lie?

I do not consider myself to be an environmentalist, but I was taught (and teach my kids) that you take care of what you own, take even better care of what you borrow, and that littering and vandalism are morally reprehensible.

This sort of mess makes me sick. It's perpetrated by a small (I hope) percentage of ignorant slobs, but it makes us all look bad.

You know, not to insult the city dwellers among us, but I grew up in the country and illegal dumping was a constant problem. It seems that some city folk thought it was OK to bring a trashed riding lawnmower or old washing machine out in the middle of the night and dump it in the brush along our long driveway.

I really do think what Zoogster said about "strict formal controls" has some merit. People need total control to function as a society, either internal control (morals, self control), or external controls (laws, police). A society of people with a strong personal moral code will need minimal laws, whereas a dumbed-down society like we are becoming/have become will increasingly need stricter laws. Many people are so used to being told what to do and how to do it in every situation that they seem to have lost the ability to think for themselves. When nobody is there to tell them what to do they seem lost and just do whatever they feel like at the time. If they think they can get away with it, their conscience doesn't bother them at all.

Sorry, just have to rant once in a while. Doesn't really solve anything, but I feel a little better.

[unrealtrip]

I have the same experience many places. I do not post it because it feeds the "we should get rid of legal unsupervised shooting" flames. They do this stuff where guns are illegal too. I have gone by signs in all matter of locations in no man's land and seen signs riddled with bullet holes.

People are just animals now, so used to being kept in line with very strict formal controls in cities that when they get out alone they have little self control.

I would refrain from making a big deal of these things unless you want no free places to legally shoot.

What do I do? Well even when I am in sucha place, riddle with bullet holes, with trash all over, I bringa trash bag, pack out what I brought and shot, and stay very leery of anyone I see. You are the only law and you and who is with you are on your own. I personaly don't socialize and move on if I see others.
Well here's the thing... I don't believe in more government control, but if shooters as a general community aren't more diligent, shooting on public land privileges will be taken away by the vocal greenies that propose all the wrong legislation.

I hear what you're saying about not making a big deal about it lest we lost more places to shoot, but if we don't make a big deal about it no one in the shooting community will do anything about it. The same plague affects another of my hobbies, four wheeling. Over time, the destruction caused by the minority adds up and we have trail closures.

We have trail clean up days put on by local four wheeling clubs that frequent the trails and we have events to raise money to help deal with the extremists from the other camp. As far as I know, this sort of thing does not exist in the shooting community.

I don't see this sort of behavior in parks where shooting is not allowed. Street signs, yeah, but I mean the campground looked like a battle zone.

I'm no greenie, but I am an outdoor activist. I go four wheeling, camping, backpacking, hiking, hunting, fishing and nothing pisses me off more than seeing the destruction of the few, result in the losses of the many.

[Davo]

Thats how the out of the way shooting areas down here look too. Combine that with several vegetation fires each year from steel jacketed ammo and its easy to see why local shooters only get bad publicity out here.

[glockman19]

Sad to see the lack of regard for public land. I'd send the pictures to the BLM and tell them to clean it up.

Disgraceful.

YES

[harmonic]

I've been all over that state and never even heard of Knoxville, CA. I thought you had taken a vacation to the Tennessee Smokies and I'm sitting here wondering, "Why's he in Tennessee when he could be in the Sierras?"

Anyway, sorry about your experience. It's getting supremely difficult to find truly isolated spots anymore. My wife and I gave up camping (in the Sierras) because every year it just got more and more crowded, and more and more drunken.

These days my idea of roughing it is a hotel suite with only one television. (Which means my wife usually gets the remote.) That is roughing it. I can only take so much oprah.

[Joe Gunns]

I am angry when i see shot-up signs, shot-up trash, casings and "targets". I know the "slob" hunter & shooter has been around since who flung the chunk. Seems like something the local gun clubs and shooting and hunting organizations should get involved in with "adopt a shooting area" clean ups and replacement signage with signs identifying the clubs doing the upkeep posted, similar to the adopt a hiway program. ...even if those signs have to be replaced when shot up, too. Neighborhoods that clean up the vandelism seem to have fewer repeat incidents, might work on the public lands.
James

[CDignition]

This is your chance. Mobilize Boyscout groups, or other Pro Gun groups local to you, and call the media.... go on out and clean it all up, selflessly, and shw how "Good" gun guys take care of things...

[Zoogster]

People already do cleanups in many places once a year or so. If you want to take part, do so. All that garbage happens pretty quickly. That is why they have so many laws on what kinds of targets you can have, only metal spinning knock down blah blah. Not bottles or fun stuff because too many don't clean up. Of course the law does not stop it, it just means you cannot legaly do it too.

All calling the media will do in "pro green", anti gun, CA is get people wondering why people are having to go out and deal with this affront to the enviornment to begin with. They will think of how this litter can be stopped from the start. People will demand something be done, and legislation will respond with banning such use of firearms.

This is CA folks.

Any action taken from being brought to the attention of the state is going to be bad for gun owners. Currently the only people aware of such messes are the people that go there to shoot to begin with. I assure you most places are cleaned up once a year or so. Usualy removing many many tons of trash each time. The same thing happens at the beaches for the 4th of July. http://www.sdnews.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/08/04/44d37d55305d1 (200 tons of trash removed from 4th of July beaches from just San Diego alone)

It is not shooters, it is the people.
There is nicer places for most other outdoor activities. BLM land tends to be much less desirable than most other public land, and that is how it ended up as BLM land to begin with. Most nice land is classified as a forest(unless hunting) or National/State park (illegal to even have firearms) where shooting is illegal to begin with. So only people wanting the freedom of the BLM land tend to run into the mess. That limits it to shooters and the like.

[unrealtrip]

If you are smart you would rename the post, let it die, and delete what you wrote Any action taken from being brought to the attention of the state is going to be bad for gun owners.


I don't think burying our collective heads in the sand and hoping the problem goes by unnoticed is the right thing to do. Besides I've already read many articles talking about the problems out there with the shooter's garbage and even with the four wheelers, a quick google and you'll see for yourself.

Regardless, this isn't anything new, apparently the problems there have been going on for quite some time and the BLM already knows about it. I'm assuming they just don't have the manpower or funding to deal with it. I did stumble across a few conservation type groups that have been slowly buying up the land, and that might explain the added private property signage I saw all over.

Now I know why the BLM office sighed when I called to ask about target shooting.

[Nitrogen]

Hey, if shooters on public land can't clean up after themselves, I'm all for banning shooting on public land.

Next time you come to that area, you might want to clean it up a bit. I know you shouldn't have to clean up after other people's mess, but if you like having public land to shoot on, it's a good idea.

[jlbraun]

Hey, if shooters on public land can't clean up after themselves, I'm all for banning shooting on public land.

I hate to say it, but me too. Public land is the last place left where you can actually MOVE when you shoot.

[Mauserguy]

When I go out shooting in the desert, I invariably run across much of the same kind of trash. I will pick up one trash bag of garbage as my duty as a good citizen, but I will leave the larger items that can be used as targets. I figure, if people know that an area is littered with old barbeque gas bottles, they won't want to bring any more for targets.

It's sad, but California has become a trashy place. It's a problem with the people.
Mauserguy

[elrod]

If we legislate strict controls on those who do not have the consideration for others to control themselves, we impose unfair restrictions on all. As surely as the drive-by shootings result in gun bans in certain cities, the slobs that leave their trash on BLM areas will result those areas being put off limits.:mad: Common decency went out the window about the same time Mayberry did.
In a nation of 300 million, if only 10% ignore the rules of common courtesy, you still have 30,000,000 people to make excuses for and clean up after. We, the civilised element of gunners, must attempt mentor and educate many,many people in order to preserve our own liberties. We need a lot of ATTABOYS to offset all these awsh*ts!:rolleyes:

[Zoogster]

Hey, if shooters on public land can't clean up after themselves, I'm all for banning shooting on public land.

Maybe you would like to ban going to the beach? Eating food in public where wrappers often get thrown all over?

The problem is the people. As you should have got from my article. Did you not read the 200 tons of trash from one weekend on one beach for the 4th of July?

You would have to ban an awful lot of activities, and I am ashamed on a gun board shooting is one you are so quick to jump on.

I clean up, others do, and some don't. Most areas are then cleaned up by volunteers once a year or so.

But then you are from Texas where 94.3% of all land is in private hands. So public land barely exists anyways.

[Nameless_Hobo]

Jesus, I'd pick up a few of those shotgun shells and reload them, if they're not to tarnished or stepped on. That's enough to keep me shooting for a while.

[Sunray]

People who shoot at signs and leave a big mess aren't shooters. They're vandals.

[tkendrick]

Sad to see the lack of regard for public land. I'd send the pictures to the BLM and tell them to clean it up.



Glockman, We have this problem in Arizona, and someone did as you suggested, told BLM to clean it up.

They did...and are now in the process of having not only the place where the slobs left their trash, but a huge area (read-several thousand acres) placed off limits to not only recreational shooters, but to all hunters as well.

My father, several years before he died, who was NRA Life Member and an avid shooter, finally just quit allowing ANYBODY to hunt on his ranch for this very reason.

We shooters and gun owners , as group, have a lousy rep. If your not part of the solution, you will be perceived to be part of the problem.

When they ban shooting in the public land near you, we can blame no one but ourselves.:cuss:

[Gord]

You realize that pretty much all of California looks exactly like that, right?

It's just what happens when you shove 36 million people into a single state, and then give most of 'em a "f*** everything but me" attitude.

There is very little of anything in California that legions of morons haven't already defaced, wrecked, shut down or polluted. Take a walk along Lake Arrowhead (or any other) sometime and count the shards of glass from broken beer bottles all along the shore where kids are playing. Drive through the desert and marvel at the dozens of heaps of trash dumped all over the place. Crawl five miles up the roughest, rockiest trail you can find, that looks like it hasn't seen traffic since 1940, and see how many beer cans and milk jugs and plastic bags and candybar wrappers you can find stuck in bushes in five minutes.

Blame that on shooters. :rolleyes:

California is a cesspool, in pretty much every regard. It's not just BLM land either - fences get broken, cut through or simply run over by trucks or quads all over the place, and unless you go out and patrol your property daily, a "no trespassing" sign is just a fabulous waste of $5.

[tkendrick]

Blame that on shooters.


Hard not to when half the trash you're looking at consists of a ton and a half of empty cartridge cases and the other half is bullet riddled.

[Gord]

And if you look, there'll usually be the decaying remnants of a couch, a dozen bags of tree clippings and half a carload of used diapers, broken glass and paperwork (the number of name/address/phone/SSNs I've found on trash is astounding - no wonder identity thievery is so prevalent, talk about easy targets) no more than a hundred feet away.

I personally don't have much of an incentive to tote out my empties when it's obvious that no one is ever going to clean up a given area and no one is going to stop dumping ton after ton of waste there. Always took out my targets, though - when I even bothered to bring targets. There's so much crap lying around already that 99% of the time I'd just go out with some ammo and make my own.

I've since moved to Utah, where they seem to be much more proud of the fact that their state isn't a gigantic steaming trash heap, and I'll have you know that I'm perfectly capable of doing my part to keep that up. ;)

[tkendrick]

I have no doubt that you are. As are most of the shooters that I know.

The unfortunate thing is that not everyone is, and as shooters we tend to be conservative and inclined to mind our own business.

And in this case, it doesn't serve us well. I carry the number for the State poachers hot line with me, and have called them a couple of times when I have run across shooters who are obviously drunk or trashing an area, but Fish and Game has a spotty record.

And as for our much vaunted Sheriff Arpiao....the less said in this case, the better.

[Gord]

Figured I'd go ahead and state my defense before someone had a chance to tell me how I'm just another lazy bastard contributing to the problem. :neener:

At least in my part of SoCal, "spotty" was an understatement. I must've called to report at least ten parties dumping crap in the desert - one stayed in the immediate area for about a half-hour after I made the call, loitering and trying to cover up his tire tracks with an old broom. Nobody ever showed up.

With the sheer amount of that type of BS we had, they probably figure it's a lost cause and a waste of gas to send a ranger out.

[harmonic]

Can't speak for so cal, but in no cal, a ranger has a huuuuuge area to cover. Some of these guys are dealing with booby trapped pot farms and armed drug dealers in national and state forests.

I remember talking to one guy who said he hated poaching calls, because he knew the perps would be armed. Sometimes these guys get shot.

Not to minimize the destruction of trash in our eco system, but cal's resources are stretched to the breaking point?

[Gord]

Third largest economy in the world, boyo.

No excuse for not having enough anything.

[Nitrogen]

I have to agree, I used to live in California. I agree 100% about the attitude there; which is one of the many reasons I finally left.

My point still stands, though. If you care enough to complain about the mess, how about helping clean it up? Call the BLM and ask how you can volunteer to clean some of it up. Maybe they can bring a dump truck or something you can throw trash into.

The thing is, since there's so much hatred on paying taxes for government services, the BLM folks arent' going to spend their limited resources cleaning it up.

Next time you shoot, go in with some garbage bags, and pick up twice as much as you shot. It'll help, and it feels good.

Blame that on shooters.

I don't mean to be negative here, and if this sounds like I'm getting personal, I apologize.

By saying, "it's not my problem" you're contributing to the problem. It IS your problem, so do something about it.

[Zoogster]

Not to minimize the destruction of trash in our eco system, but cal's resources are stretched to the breaking point?

Pfft a lot of CA resources fund massive government bureaucracies and government agencies that require $4 for every $1 put towards the problems they exist to solve, most of the rest go to socialist programs.

Anytime you hear a politician tell you there is not enough funding for something in CA, its because they would rather just get new funds from new taxes someplace than fix the situation. Once government gets to a certain size it can vote itself increased budgets, labor unions can demand unnecessary government agencies stay open, and unnecessary employees remain on the payroll. It grows but it almost never shrinks. Government will always have its "resources stretched to the limit" because it will always spend everything you give it, even if you double its budget. The way they spend it will also get less accomplished dollar for dollar than it would being spent by people spending thier own money, or the private sector spending its own money.

That is why looking to the government to solve your problems is always the most foolish approach possible. You want government as small as possible and limited to the bare minimum of what is required, not attempting and failing to solve all the problems people face.

For example the government would pass new laws, and spend millions to clean up that trash, while taking freedoms from you, and you could clean it up for free in a day with 10 volunteers. Total money spent would consist of the gas and price of trash bags, and if the help was not free, thier help. Heck you could hire a bunch of illegals (lol) and clean that whole place up for a couple hundred bucks. The government would spend millions and implement strict gun restrictions. Government is rarely effecient, and involving them is a losing route.

[yhtomit]

Wow -- sorry to hear about this, and thanks for the thoughtful write-up.

I've mentioned before (so, apologies that I have so few stories to go around ;)) that my "local" (30-plus miles away from home) range was closed part of last year because miscreants had totally destroyed the substantial target stands with shotguns, one blast at a time. Eventually, a new set was constructed (by the State Game Lands folk who run these ranges), and since then the range was reopened and has so remained, but the shotgun-toting vandals are steadily working on destroying them again. Honestly, some human beings should think harder about whether they should reproduce .

timothy

[railroader]

I shoot on BLM land in the southern cal desert. I pick up after my self but there is so much junk that I could fill up the back of my pick up truck and it wouldn't make a dent. People shoot up appliances, TV's, computers, I have even seen cars and a jet ski. The places are total messes and all the junk attracts more junk. There use to be more ranges that were closer but they got closed because of all the trash. Mark

[Larry Ashcraft]

People who shoot at signs and leave a big mess aren't shooters. They're vandals.
Spot on.

In a country where all law abiding citizens have the RKBA, it makes sense that we're gonna have some slobs in our midst.

We can try to educate, and teach by example.

[Gord]

Maybe they can bring a dump truck or something you can throw trash into.

Yeah, which would necessitate money for a driver to stay with it and gas to drive it back to wherever it came from every evening - else if it got left out overnight (or even unattended for a few hours during the day) it'd be tagged a dozen times, someone would have tried to pop one of the tires, the glass will all be shattered and whoever camped in the cab would have busted up the dash and consoles, stripped the wire for copper and stolen the gauges as souvenirs. :rolleyes:

By saying, "it's not my problem" you're contributing to the problem. It IS your problem, so do something about it.

No, I'm not contributing to the problem at all, thanks. Cleaning up after other idiots' messes is not my responsibility, particularly when those same idiots will be back the next weekend with a keg and six carloads of their idiot friends (and their idiot friends' trash) just like last time.

Prove to me that the authorities who get my tax money are at all capable of enforcing their own anti-dumping laws, and responding to violation calls in a timely manner, and I'll spend all week with a rake and a shovel cleaning up filth to go back to the dump - their truck or mine. But as long as any retard in the state can freely go back and dump whatever-the-hell they want without any chance of repercussion at all, what's the point?

railroader is understating the situation - ten truckloads wouldn't make a dent, much less one. Every square inch of Southern California's public land is covered with non-biodegradable trash. Some of these guys are going out with panel trucks filled to the roof with old car tires.

[Zoogster]

Dumping in rural areas is a huge problem unrelated to shooting in Southern California. It seems every week there is some new refrigerators, A/C units, Grills, Tires, washers and dryers, stoves, kitchen sinks, toilets and anything else that requires a disposal fee thrown in the side of the road or in the brush or bushes off the side of the road.

I recall one single lane remote road specificly that had hundreds of tons of trash that required lots of equipment and was extremely expensive to remove. They fenced the entire side of the road for miles because it was only a fraction of the cost to fence miles of desolate road that it would be to clean up after people again.

These are not just private individuals either, but include private contractors, construction and repair businesses etc because of the sheer volume and large number of similar items dumped on occasions.

Localy I have recorded it on security camera a couple times and been able to report the license number to the police. It is a several thousand dollar fine. However more often than not they get away with it. Any open area with a road or dirt road that is desolate seems to accumulate tons of such trash.
It is not limited to shooting areas.

[fireflyfather]

I know for a fact a bunch of shooters from the San Diego area staged a cleanup of the carizo creek range (last real BLM shooting area in SD county) earlier this year. I couldn't make it (dealing with a sick family member), but they even got GREAT (positive) media coverage from the local right-wing rag/news channels. I haven't been out since the cleanup, but am looking forward to it. Got a new mosin coming in on Monday.....heh

[bkjeffrey]

We have a place like that here too in Mississippi, but our spot makes the one above look like a martha stewart garden! So Ive got a plan. 90% of the fellas at work are avid gun owners and shooters who are always complaining about having no where free to shoot. The other 10% are anti gun because of the typical stereo-type. I want to take them out there where i go but am almost embarrased too. So heres my plan. My work place is big on community service and public relations. Im going to introduce this place to everyone at our morning meeting. I know my supervisors will support it. Tell them its a free place to shoot. Organize a day during a friday where we all go over there and clean this place up. All the guys are gonna bring their guns and families and we will have a bbq and do some shooting. I think this is a great way to get more people interestd in reinforcing the 2nd, as well as helping to clean up our community a lil bit. Also to introduce the non believers to the joys of clean safe sport of shooting. And the county will be unaware of the mess before they can post it off limits. Thoughts or ideas on this?

[CountGlockula]

There are two kinds of shooters:

1.) The responsible kind
2.) The immature/uneducated/callous/insensitive/moronic kind.

Looks like you came across #2. Sad thing is that there's too many #2's out there. *Just my observation of a couple of knuckleheads at a local gun show. Sad.

[Kimber1911_06238]

that really makes me sad. because of people like that, those of us who are respectful have fewer places to shoot.

[lax]

People with guns aren't the only. Cigarette butts out the car window. Fast food wrappers too. It's disgusting.

Here's the border jumpers, doing the littering American's aren't willing to do.
http://www.desertinvasion.us/invasion_pictures/pics_waddell_dam.html

With all the criminals living off the public dole in jail, you'd think we could get an honest day's labor out of them in exchange for free room and board. It's time for mobile jailhouses. There are plenty of places that could use litter removal.

[Malone LaVeigh]

Forest Service and BLM enforcement is mostly funded out of the Federal budget process, not the state. I say mostly because there are minor funds available for specific purposes such as green sticker funds for OHV enforcement. But generally, the funding comes from the same Federal government that can't find enough money to properly armor our troops.

[gunsmith]

http://www.jointogether.org/news/headlines/inthenews/2003/marijuana-growing-called-to.html

[joplinsks]

That's a state sponsored shooting range :what: Wow... People complain about our Dept Of Conservation unmanned ranges and, even at their absolute worst, they look like heaven on earth compared to that range... or trash dump... or whatever. I'd be scared as sh** to camp there.

I went to the Knoxville Recreation Center website and they make it sound like a paradise :rolleyes:

I'm starting to realize and appreciate that the state of Missouri is pretty cool compared to most others :)

[Chris Rhines]

Tragedy of the commons, in living color. Sad, but hardly unexpected. When nobody owns a piece of property, no one will care about its upkeep.

I took some new shooters out to the range (private, members only) today. The last half-hour was spent cleaning up the range and policing our brass. I don't go to public ranges for the same reason I don't use public restrooms.

- Chris