[StLGlocker]

Hi all,

My younger brother and I just had a long-winded political discussion - and we weren't even drunk. :D

What I'm wondering about is the availability of stories and/or statistics for instances where a woman attempted to buy a handgun for personal protection, had to wait a set period of time, and was injured/raped/murdered etc. by an ex with a restraining order against him.

Bro's opinion is that waiting periods are a good thing, using the "waiting period gives time for a hot head to cool off" argument. I have a strong suspicion that waiting periods COST more lives than they save, because of scenarios like I outlined above.

There should be some hard data, be it first-person accounts from women who survived, or statistics to bear out my position. I'm wondering if anyone knows a good place to dig for those (aside from posts here relating personal stories - and those are most welcome, too).

His contention is much harder to prove, because I can't see anyone going to police or the media with "you know, I was going to kill her, but the guy at the shop said I had to wait, and by the time a week rolled around, I just wasn't mad anymore." :rolleyes: I'll grant that it could possibly happen, but such a thing is unprovable, at least as far as I can see.

Any ideas to help me show him that waiting periods do nothing to prevent crime?

[Zundfolge]

Bro's opinion is that waiting periods are a good thing, using the "waiting period gives time for a hot head to cool off" argument.
So what's to keep "hot heads" from just beating someone to death, or already owning a gun? It would seem to me that the first time you buy a gun you could wait the waiting period, but once you already own guns whats the point? :p


anyway, here's John Lott's take on it --> http://www.tsra.com/Lott35.htm

[Penforhire]

I could attack the other side. I say if someone is so hot-headed as to buy a gun and use it in an emotional fit then the waiting period just delays the inevitable. That person, after the waiting period, will have another fit of anger at some point in their life and do the stupid deed. In that vase the waiting period had no benefit to society. I know that makes an argument for better screening of buyers.

The weird part, for me, is the waiting period applies no matter how many firearms you already own. I have enough weapons to burn down my neighborhood already. Why should I have to wait for another plinker or toy? I'm already armed and dangerous.

[StLGlocker]

Here, this'll help articulate his opinion. Found this on an anti-gun Illinois senator's web site.

"These cooling off periods make sense. A cooling off period may be the only barrier between a woman and her abusive husband whose local restraining order doesn't show up on a computer check, or the only obstacle in the way of a troubled person planning to commit suicide and take others with him or her. A cooling off period will prevent crimes of passion and spontaneous suicides. The list of people who have bought guns and used them within a few hours or a day to kill themselves or others is far too long."

Suicides we can discard immediately as irrelevant - a dedicated individual will use the most expedient method, whether or not that happens to be a gun. Just look at Japan's suicide rate, or the guy in Africa who cut off his own head with a butcher's saw in a busy market.

My problem is with the central thesis of his argument, the same one my brother is using:
A cooling off period will prevent crimes of passion
This hypothesis is stated as fact, so it follows that the fact must be backed up by evidence. Where is this evidence? If it exists, I'd sure like to see it. If not, the statement is unsupported. Not fact, and certainly not true. I don't doubt that people have bought guns and then used them within a few hours on themselves or others. What I do doubt, and see no proof of, is any preventive effect imparted by waiting periods.

On the other hand, I'm certain I can show, for a fact, that waiting periods have cost lives. I've found a few sources, still looking for more.

[SIGarmed]

"cooling off" period is a way to legitimize how liberal anti's want guns portrayed in our society,and they are succeeding. Its a way to make guns seem responsible, and not people.

As if the legitmate legal violence of self defense is as bad as illegal violence like robbery, rape,et cetera. The ones that have pushed for these laws that only bar the use of arms to honest men have basically legislated pacifism to the extent that it kills us, literally. Just listen to the so called million mommies. "get rid of your guns".

What happens when a woman is being stalked and she needs protection that law enforcement surely won't give her within the time frame of the so called "cooling off" period. You cannot have a legitimate arguement regarding "gun safety" without the acceptance of the fact that guns save lives. This is something the liberal left gun grabbers don't ever want to admit.

[Telperion]

Though they may not provide concrete examples of where a waiting period disarmed a victim, you may find the following analyses helpful. I found them on www.guncite.com, a very good site in general.

California's Handgun Waiting Period Law, 1952-1990: Did it Work? (http://www.claytoncramer.com/cawait2.html)
Why Gun Waiting Periods Threaten Public Safety (http://www.saf.org/journal/4_Kopel.html)

My argument against waiting periods is simpler: if I pay for the gun, it becomes my property. It belongs to me, so I have the right to carry it out the door. To me, waiting periods are nothing more than warrantless seizure of property -- with the government forcing the dealer to act as its agent.

[foghornl]

Debating the merit of waiting periods

There is no merit to any waiting period.

[tiberius]

The waiting period is silly feel good legislation. While I have never had to wait myself (either bought my new guns before Brady or after CHL) I just don't see the sense in making someone who already owns a gun to have to be approved to buy another.

Sometimes someone really does need a gun "right now" for legitimate reasons.

The only good that I can see that comes from the waiting period (and background check), is that it HELPS prevent FFL's from selling to people who are prevented by law from buying guns. This should, in theory, help protect them from liability since determining legality is taken out of their hands.

A small benfit perhaps, but something :)

[4v50 Gary]

Waiting periods are irrelevant to those of us who already have a gun. All it really does is to prepare a space at home to receive in.

[Carlos Cabeza]

If I have cleared NICS once, why should I have to wait through the check again ? Purty stoopid.................Why do I have to fill out the paperwork for every purchase ? ............that one is easy.

[AZRickD]

1) John Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime" states that waiting periods have been linked to a slight increase in crime.

2) How many days into California's 15 day waiting period was Nicole Brown-Simpson before OJ showed up with a knife?

3) A waiting period for a gun is just as unconstitutional as a waiting period for a newspaper article. Oh, words don't kill people? Ask him if he remembers how the Spanish-American war was started? "Remember the Maine"? Randolph Hearst? Yellow Journalism... not to mention the Declaration of Independence or "Uncle Tom's Cabin."

Rick

[Graystar]

The amount of gun related crime committed by the actual owner of the gun is extremely small, only a few tenths of a percent. Waiting periods could only affect this tiny percentage.

As for the issue of a woman needing a gun because of an abusive boyfriend or spouse...Unfortunately that's not a good example. The reason is that in most cases the abuse has been going on for a very long time (sometimes years) before the woman is actually killed...plenty of time to have acquired a weapon, no matter how long the waiting period. Many of these guys have had multiple restraining orders placed upon them. Ultimately, there is some other reason as to why the woman failed to get a gun to protect herself...fear, no money, who knows. But I doubt a waiting period can have any real effect on the murder rate of abused women.

[Skunkabilly]

Like most gun control measures, it has little to do with crime control, and more to have the perception of doing somethinnnnnnnnnng. :rolleyes:

whine whine whine liberal liberal whine whine cry cry

[answerguy]

2) How many days into California's 15 day waiting period was Nicole Brown-Simpson before OJ showed up with a knife?

What's the story behind this?

[TheOtherOne]

My argument against waiting periods is simpler: if I pay for the gun, it becomes my property. It belongs to me, so I have the right to carry it out the door. To me, waiting periods are nothing more than warrantless seizure of property -- with the government forcing the dealer to act as its agent.Hmmm... Very good point! Maybe someone that lives in California (or any state with a waiting period) can get the ACLU to fight this exclusively on grounds that it violates the 4th Amendment? :D

I should throw this over in the ACLU topic.

[spacemanspiff]

there are no merits to waiting periods. the premise is based on the idea that anyone who buys a gun is anxious to commit murder. yet the same person could buy a knife with no questions asked or a hammer without any suspicion.

[Standing Wolf]

I'll figure waiting periods are okay when leftist extremists agree to waiting periods on books and magazines.

[Justin]

Waiting periods for guns are based on a completely specious and unprovable idea. The idea that making someone wait a few days to buy a gun will result in reduced violence is completely absurd.

So in a debate you shouldn't have to prove that waiting periods are bad. They should have to prove that they are good, which is an impossible task. If a law cannot be empirically proven effective then it is therefore superflous and should be done away with.

I'll figure waiting periods are okay when leftist extremists agree to waiting periods on books and magazines.What have you been smoking?

[Zundfolge]

there are no merits to waiting periods. the premise is based on the idea that anyone who buys a gun is anxious to commit murder.

I think thats the real reason for waiting periods. It codifies into law the notion that the desire to own a gun is at least a little weird and anti-social and quite possibly criminal.

In addition, it complicates the gun ownership process just a little bit more ... thus possibly causing some people to decide against gun ownership. The less new gun owners, the less new RKBA supporters.

[Standing Wolf]

What have you been smoking?

Winston light 100s in the soft pack.

My point was that waiting periods for books and magazines would transport leftist extremists into veritable seizures of howling rage, as would having to undergo background checks before buying, say, computer software, or tickets to movies or tennis shoes or...

[sm]

Standing Wolf...:D


All animals are created equal....some more equal than others Animal Farm.

I don't believe in waiting periods...of course I don't believe in any gun laws-period.

Reality is there is no merit. Crimes of passion? Didn't someone have a link to the most common "tool" was a bat, or what it a hammer?

[Waitone]

Gevernments at all levels find it convenient to be blind to the consequences of their decisions and actions. Government is self-blinded by the statistics it chooses to collect and by the methods it uses to collect statistics.

Example: unemployment statistics are a measure of people receiving gov't compensation. Those who don't get govt compensation or those who have run out of compensation are not measured. Conveniently their fate is to be returned "working" category" when reality is something else.

Gun law? Gov't does not collect statistics on violence committed after a restraining order has been issue. I'd love to see that figure.

Gov't does not gather statistics on the number of people killed or injured between the time a 911 call is logged and when LE arrives on the scene. Well......statistics may be collected but I've not seen them.

Reason for not collecting key statistics is simple. Taxpayers may begin to question effectiveness of those responsible for said stupidity. Can't have that, can we?

[tiberius]

Example: unemployment statistics are a measure of people receiving gov't compensation. Those who don't get govt compensation or those who have run out of compensation are not measured. Conveniently their fate is to be returned "working" category" when reality is something else.

By the way, the above is incorrect. The unemployment rate is determined by survey, not by who's on the dole.

[Art Eatman]

Two facets to waiting periods: The first--and traditional--has to do with passion or insanity. The second, later in time, is our NICS "check for criminality" deal.

I tried to find info about the effects and "need" for the first case, back before NICS. As near as I can tell, it works out to about one gun-related death per state per year, maximum, for a shooting immediately following a purchase. This includes suicide as well as some crime-against-person. Totally unscientific survey of course, but I've not seen any other data...

IOW, there's no real justification for a cooling-off waiting period. While I don't like the NICS deal, it is at least rational.

Art

[Nightfall]

The beauty of the waiting period to liberal anti-gun losers is that there can be no scientific study to show that it hasn't given a potential murderer a chance to calm down. Since there is no method for seeing the past emotions and intentions of people, we can't prove that it hasn't done such.

Not that we should even have to prove to the people putting laws in place that our Constitutionally guaranteed rights shouldn't be infringed...

:cuss:

[QuickDraw]

spontaneous suicides.

Huh?? :confused:

This is a new one on me!

QuickDraw

[dance varmint]

Waiting period is a euphemism for "death threat fulfillment period".