[Andrew Wyatt]

...and not a pistol owned by oleg.

After reading several of the after action reports about the need for more pistols in iraq, I got to thinking about what the ideal backup weapon would be to issue to every combat arms person, rather like the reichsrevolver and volkspistole concepts.

such a gun would be issued (or allowed to be bought by) everyone in the military, with preference given to those in combat arms positions (infantrymen, tank drivers, etc.), and would be simple to operate and clean, be inexpensive to replace, use 9mm ammunition, and also be small enough to tuck into a pocket, pouch or be holster carried on the first line without undue discomfort.


what do you guys think? are there existing pistols out there that could fulfill this role?

[Penforhire]

I like the idea. And price would be lowered by substantial volume. Maybe a moonclip small revolver? Perhaps a Derringer fixed-double barrel type? Not to awesome in firepower but very small and cheap. Hmm, would that really be better than a tiny break-open 12 gauge, looking like a bang-stick (ignoring our short-barrel laws)?

[Jim March]

I think it's already been built: Ruger SP101 in 9mm with moons. Eats NATO-spec ammo, has a simple operations drill, concealable, potent (esp. with a 3" barrel), tough and not very expensive in bulk purchase amounts.

[firestar]

Sounds like the Kahr K-9. Maybe the price would drop if they made them in volume.

[Thirties]

"rather like the reichsrevolver and volkspistole concepts"

Andrew, would you mind bringing me up to speed on the above?
I think I understand it, but if you could provide more info, or links/leads to more, I'd appreciate it.

I assume you are not talking about the WW2 Liberator .45 pistol.

[newman32]

How about the Kel Tec P-11? I't around $250, 9MM, 10+1 rounds, small.

[Erich]

The true heir to the Volkspistole concept is the Hi-Point.

Sorry, but it's true. Look at the VP-70Z, a fine weapon, btw, which grew out of H&K's delving into the Mauser Volkspistole research.

[Tropical Z]

Erich beat me to it! They arent the easiest handgun to disassemble,but other than that they meet the "peoples gun" requirement.:)
www.hi-pointfirearms.com

[Mikul]

I was thinking of a Makarov.

[Tamara]

I know you're a big revolver fan. I am, too.

A five-shot small-frame 9mm wheelie would be a fine weapon if confronted by one or two muggers in a parking garage. It'd be pretty far from the top of the list, however, if three or four bad guys decided to join you on the bottom of a muddy foxhole. I'd want lots of bullets and something that's not likely to jam because the cylinder won't turn from the goop caught between it and the frame.

[RON in PA]

If the Keltek P11 could be made reliable it would do the job. Small, light and decent firepower. Glock 26 is another alternative. I'd be happy with a J frame in 9mm.

[PC Load Letter]

Definitely the Kel-Tec p11. It's pocket-weight (about 14oz unloaded),DA-action, and small size make it perfect for stated requirements. Now, if they could just fix that slide-stop problem...

[4v50 Gary]

A polymer frame (cheaper to produce) stamped slide gun should fit the criteria. All internal parts should be stamped to keep costs down. Even the sights could be cheap stampings. By comparison, revolvers are too complicated to make.

[Andrew Wyatt]

THe p-11 was the first thing that came to mind too, as well as the hi point. (i'm an auto guy).

anyway, what i was thinking of wasn't the reichsrevolver (which was an issue weapon of normal construction to the german army in the 1880s) but the Jager, which was a completely stamped conscrustion wwi era pistol in .32 ACP that was sold commercially to german soldiers.

I think if kel tec made a p11 that took beretta magzines, that's be about the ideal. they're lighter than most revolvers, and considerably smaller than the meaty rugers.

[Thumper]

FWIW, the P-11 is the first thing I thought of, too.

[CWL]

Bill Ruger tried to launch this concept with his line of inexpensive-but quality semiautos, his version of the "everyman gun".

[T.Stahl]

I'd take a Glock 19.

[sw442642]

Glock 26 really but these discussions have gone on before and no military has really ever gone for such a gun. I doubt it really is needed except for some unlikely scenario.

[Andrew Wyatt]

Glock 26 really but these discussions have gone on before and no military has really ever gone for such a gun. I doubt it really is needed except for some unlikely scenario.


A pistol does not win wars, but it sure helps a man feel more secure in his foxhole.

[George Hill]

http://gungallery.euweb.cz/Pict/FP-45%20Liberator.jpg

[Bigjake]

liberator (?)

[seeker_two]

Ruger P-95 that could take Beretta mags...:cool:

[Andrew Wyatt]

a p95 is huge. a p11 isn't.


i'm not talking about a liberator. I'm taking about a pistol for general issue to infantrymen and whatnot, not a way to cap someone and steal their mauser.

[Jim K]

A cheap, easily made, reliable pistol in 9mm already exists. It is called a Hi-Point.

Jim

[Justin]

How, exactly, are we defining 'volkspistole?' To my mind this brings forth images of a service pistol that is either fullsize, like a Beretta or G17, or slightly smaller, like the CZ-75 compact. Such a pistol would have to have the following stipulations:

1)Easy and cheap to manufacture
2)Combat-grade accuracy
3)Simple manual of arms, such that you could teach grandma to use it in about half an hour
4)Robust enough that it will work in adverse environments with minimal maintenence
5)Concealability is a plus

I'm not real hot on Glock pistols, but I think that something like the G19 would be just about perfect for that role.

Hi-Points are out because they are inherently unsafe to carry with a round in the chamber.

[sm]

P-11

[Jim March]

Right now, we're not giving most of our front-line grunts ANY handgun. That's nuts. The handgun they need doesn't have to be a main-line battle implement, it's a last-ditch "get 'em off me NOW" for when the rifle goes puke.

Yes, I think a revolver can do that. And be more likely to go "boom" at that critical moment.

A Hi-Point? Jesus H. Christ, if we can't keep Berettas running...:eek:

Let's remember that, guys: we can't keep Berettas running in the field properly.

If I need a mass-produced gun that will go "bang" RIGHT NOW, every time, it'll be a Ruger wheelgun - SP, GP or even a New Model SA :). If the weight on the GP could be cut down by running a shorter 6-shot 9mm moonclip cylinder and otherwise shaving the frame by six ounce or so, that'd be even better.

[Andrew Wyatt]

and a revolver can be pocket carried, or stuffed in a 30 round mag pouch.

[sm]

No problem with a revo with me guys.
Just thinking ammo compatability, price for a mass produced pc, and parts swapping if need. I've put my Keltec through some 'testing' and survived. Just a niche gun.

Yes a plain jane vanilla revo like you mentioned Jim would be fine. Oh many years ago I had a Charter Arms .44spl BullDog, always thought that would make a nice -'get off me now' pc. If the quality was better.

[Tropical Z]

An open slide gun should NEVER have been chosen as the handgun of choice for the U.S.military! This is being proven in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Oracle]

I think that the Glock 26 would work very well for this concept, but only if the currently issued pistol was changed to the Glock 17. The 26 is small, easily concealable, reliable, and can accept the same magazines as the larger G17, a big plus in a combat zone. If they weren't going to change the current issued pistol, I would suggest a smaller gun that could take the same magazines as the larger current military pistol.

[Jim K]

Jim March: A Hi-Point? Jesus H. Christ, if we can't keep Berettas running...

I was not being entirely serious, but a Hi-Point is a lot simpler than a Beretta, and the question was about a cheap, reliable emergency pistol, not a standard service sidearm.

As for issuing every GI a pistol, I think those guys have quite enough to lug around already. Plus, it might be well to remember the experience in WWII when one division commander prohibited his men from keeping captured German pistols. It seems that in one two week period, his division lost more men to wounds from playing with captured pistols than from enemy action.

Jim

[Boats]

Not that he needs it, but I second Jim March's nomination of the SP-101 9mm moonclip, though I think it should also be able to hold up to 6 rounds and sans clip if it must through some chamfering in the cylinder holes. The role envisioned here is something tough, reliable, potent enough, and the absolute last ditch weapon before the bayonet right? I think a revolver can fill that role, especially a modular, field strippable one like the Ruger. I think it would be interesting to put one through some trials. I don't think it would jam very easily.

Revolvers worked on the battlefield extensively up through WWII and were the preferred weapon of some tunnel rats in 'Nam speaking of crud environs. In fact the Navy SeALs are reported to resort to stainless wheelguns at times. A rugged, militarized, bead blasted stainless revo would be nothing to dismiss if it were in your face as the enemy. Yep, a 3" SP-101 with a nylon pocket holster would readily make for cargo pocket carry if one wished, or just harness mount it, or add a holster to the armored vest, or . . . .

[DMK]

Personally I think we should get away from 9mm. Why do we need NATO ammo compatability anymore? They'd probably be getting more ammo from us than we would from them anyway.

Until our troops are allowed to use expanding ammo, I say a 45ACP revolver is the way to go for a last ditch sidearm.

[Dave Markowitz]

I'd nominate the Ruger P95 DAO. It is an unfortunate fact that most troops don't get adequate training with handguns. Using a DAO semi gets you a consistent trigger pull that isn't bad once the gun is broken in, and is safer in the hands of the average soldier.

The Ruger may not have the cachet of a SIG or an HK, but they are cheap, built like tanks (i.e., as close to soldier-proof as you can get) and ultra reliable.

While the idea of a 9mm wheelgun has a lot of merit, I'd prefer something with more firepower for a weapon to be carried by troops in hostile territory.

IMO, of course.

[Andrew Wyatt]

it's a backup handgun, and ruger autopistols are hyoooge for the role.

[Glock Glockler]

A Kahr P9 or P40 shoud do the job fine.

[jsalcedo]

Stechkin





http://world.guns.ru/handguns/aps.jpg

[ElToro]

Glock has a per unit manufacturing cost of about 75$ each. i bet other gun makers arent far behind that. with a bulk .gov purchase by any country i.e. many thousands of units, i bet you could get the purchase price waaaay down there...