What happened to the cheap CZs?


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Gord
August 13, 2007, 12:55 AM
All I've been hearing for the past six months, whenever anyone asks about the best .22 for pretty much anything, is "get a CZ."

I'm finally starting to get tired of my old Savage 64F misfiring every couple of rounds and want a .22LR bolt so, as one other OP so eloquently put it, "I can pretend to be Bob Lee Swagger on a budget." (though the 64F will knock off shotgun shells one by one at 75 yards or so with boring regularity...)

So I go to look at the 452s and they've miraculously jumped from $250 or so up to $350+ everywhere I look - I believe it was $351 for the 452 American and $377 for the 452 Varmint. I'm a 19-year-old kid who's into Mosins, milsurps and Walmart guns; $350 for a .22 rifle is way outside of my acceptable bang-for-buck ratio.

Cheapest I've been able to find a CZ for is a normal old 452 for $289 - the sights look cheesy and ruin the elegance of the rest of the gun (though the concept of any gun without backup irons makes me leery for some reason) and I can't see how one would get any sort of acceptable cheek weld for a scope on the goofy-looking Euro stock. It's still a bit more than I'd prefer to spend anyway.

Am I just looking in the wrong places, or am I really going to have to settle for a TOZ-78? I don't like the idea of hunting down some 11mm scope rings and that stock is just plain hideous.

Crap. :(

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jefnvk
August 13, 2007, 01:18 AM
Get the 452 Special, same thing as Lux with a matte beech stock and park'd finish insted of glossy walnut and bluing.

IndianaBoy
August 13, 2007, 02:34 AM
That 'goofy euro stock' gives a perfect cheek weld when shooting with iron sights on the Lux, Ultra Lux, or Trainer model.

If you want to scope it, get the American.

The sights that come on the Lux type rifles from CZ are far superior to almost all rimfire sights until you get into the realm of rear aperture peep sights.

I can regularly (90% of the time) hit a milk jug, seated and slung, with my Lux at 200 yards using bulk ammo. It is lethal in the squirrel woods, and more than capable on the sillhouette range.

Get one and you will understand. They are worth the money.

I paid 300 for mine when it was new, 3 or 4 years ago.

You can get them for a reasonable price from Whittakers Guns in Kentucky, and have them ship it to your FFL.

Oh yeah. BKL rings are rock solid and fit the 11mm dovetail just fine. They are very nice. Get a set of those if you want to scope a Lux. I would suggest you stick with irons though.

Gord
August 13, 2007, 02:42 AM
Thanks for your post, it was very informative.

I would like to scope it, but of course that brings up the issue of whether or not I'm willing to shell out for "enough scope." Most likely I'll just strap a cheap Bushnell or equivalent 3-9 to it - I figure if my $25 4x Tasco Pronghorn has kept perfect zero on the 64F for all these years and thousands of rounds, $60 will be good enough for the CZ. Maybe I'm naive. Anyhoo, I figured I'd need an American for that, thanks for confirming.

I'm open to suggestions for a mag-fed bolt .22 in the $200-and-under range. Accuracy is top priority, followed by looks - would really prefer that the mags be flush, as the Savage faux-banana clip bolts make me want to gag...

aspade
August 13, 2007, 03:23 AM
The same thing that happened to cheap ammo, cheap gas, cheap food, and cheap houses. Print too many dollars and they aren't worth much anymore.

Whittakers still has the 452 Trainer under (barely under) $250 before shipping.

Kilgor
August 13, 2007, 03:26 AM
Look over the used racks at your local pawn shops and gun shops.

Take a notepad and write down the guns that interest you and their prices.

Come back and search them out on THR and gunbroker.

Go buy your used .22 bolt action of choice.

OR

Go to Walmart and buy a Marlin <$200.00.

Cosmoline
August 13, 2007, 03:58 AM
I've found the "A" prefix and American styles to be somewhat inferior to the originals. They're still good rifles, but they're not as good. My advice is to look around for a used CZ 452 ZKM trainer made before they started up CZ USA. It should have no "A" prefix but should have the tangent sights. These are the rifles that were imported in the 90's to the US and made CZ into a legend. I foolishly let mine go in a breakup and last year I spent weeks cleaning up a homestead to get it back. PLUS I had to give her a brand new CZ 452! And I consider that price to be cheap.

Gord
August 13, 2007, 03:59 AM
The same thing that happened to cheap ammo, cheap gas, cheap food, and cheap houses. Print too many dollars and they aren't worth much anymore.

Actually, the housing market's in the crapper right now. There's plenty to choose from in my area under $200k and quite a few tidy bargains under $150k, even.

...boy did I choose the right time to build a coupla houses on 5-acre lots in SoCal... :rolleyes:

Really though, the CZs have gone up a bunch in price in a relatively short time, unless I'm smoking something and remembering incorrectly...

Whittakers still has the 452 Trainer under (barely under) $250 before shipping.

Is there a difference between the 452 Trainer and the 513 Basic other than the stock and forty bucks?

There isn't much reason to get a CZ if I don't scope it - I have trouble making out small targets past a few hundred feet with irons unless they're brightly colored, and if I'm gonna be shooting primarily inside of 200 feet I may as well just go buy another 64F - or anything else, pretty much - and save myself $250. The whole point of this is to have a .22 that's accurate out to 150-200 yards or so, which I should be able to do with a decent budget scope and no wind.

Cosmoline
August 13, 2007, 04:03 AM
Also, remember the exchange rate problems. Imports, esp. from Europe, are costing more and more.

CZguy
August 13, 2007, 04:07 AM
How about a used Marlin model 60. I see them at pawn shops for around $75.00. They are surprisingly accurate, and easy on your budget. As more money becomes available later on get a CZ. Much later on get a Kimber or Annie.

Don't fall into the trap of "gotta have it now"

WeedWhacker
August 13, 2007, 04:11 AM
Actually, the housing market's in the crapper right now.

Do remember all those billions of dollars worth of cash "injected" into the market a little while ago? Funny money. Gov't-created cash they didn't even bother to print, just typed in a few zeros into their computers and gave it to the banks. It's as if a few million savings accounts cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. >:|

Gord
August 13, 2007, 04:27 AM
As more money becomes available later on get a CZ.

I've actually got a few thousand in free money at the moment - I can just think of a long list of things I'd rather spend $400 on (like a nice toolbox for the truck, or a CZ 75B, or to put towards a cheap used 400-500cc quad) than a .22 rifle. The things are fun and economical as all get-out but when it comes down to it, they're just not practical for anything but plinking and varmint-sniping and I can't bring myself to drop (what I consider to be) "serious money" on what's essentially, for me, a toy.

Same reason I can't bring myself to blow $350 on the tacticool Rem 870 HD I've been wanting for the last few years, now that I live in the middle of Mormonville and leaving everything unlocked 24/7 is a fact of life. Waiting for a good deal on one of those gorgeous old deep-blue Wingmasters instead. ;)

I figure a decent semi .22 will run me about $150 max; allowing another $100 for a barrel that's presumably a cut above the norm and a match chamber, I don't see why Basics shouldn't be available for around $250 MSRP. At that price point, tacking on $50-100 for a scope and $50 or so for a Harris bipod comes out to $400, which doesn't sting too terribly much; having to drop that much on the rifle alone does.

For $550 I could get a pretty sweet setup going with a K-31 and a much higher-quality scope, with enough left over to start exploring handloading for the 7.5x55.

My advice is to look around for a used CZ 452 ZKM trainer made before they started up CZ USA. It should have no "A" prefix but should have the tangent sights.

Duly noted. Thanks! :)

rangerruck
August 13, 2007, 05:02 AM
go to a gunshow, or a gunshop, or check here or auctionarms, or
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/
in their for sale areas. you should be able to do better.
However, when they first came in, you could get cz's for cheap. i got two centerfires, about 5 years ago, with all lettering stamped in, funny measurements, cyrillic markings, the whole Czech shebang.
But about 2 years ago, their rep go so good, that they just raised the prices up on everything, about 100 dollars. Like good drugs , I suppose, get you hooked on the cheap, then they got you.

Gord
August 13, 2007, 05:19 AM
Guess I'd better get that 75B while they're still cheap, then.

Dunno what everyone's talking about saying the 97B is for people with big hands - I couldn't tell a difference between it and the 75.

Slimjim
August 13, 2007, 05:38 AM
Theres also the 10/22, can be had used for 140 bucks.

Threejs
August 13, 2007, 08:02 AM
I've had a 513 Basic (Farmer) for a couple years now, and it is one of my most accurate rifles. When I get the cash, I will probably go out and get a 452 in a full stock.

OCJ
August 13, 2007, 09:09 AM
If you want a bolt action, take a good look at the Savage Mark II with accu-trigger. I have one and I love it, it is very accurate.

Gord
August 13, 2007, 09:48 AM
If you want a bolt action, take a good look at the Savage Mark II with accu-trigger. I have one and I love it, it is very accurate.

At this point, this (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_62/products_id/24894) is pretty much what I'm looking for at $100 cheaper than the CZ. I had looked at the Savages previously but missed that one tucked in between the synthetic-and-banana-mag barf inducers.

Have Savage's synthetic stocks gotten any better, by the way? The one on my 64F is a badly-contoured, hollow misstamp of an affair with sharp seams all over the place - makes the Rem 597 I got for my brother look like a McMillan in comparison.

Any experiences with the Winchester Wildcat? I know it's based heavily on the TOZ, but with a much nicer stock and (presumably) an American-standard dovetail. How's accuracy?

IndianaBoy
August 13, 2007, 10:31 AM
I have heard only good things about the CZ basic, however, it has a simplified non-adjustable trigger. The 452 has a nice user adjustable trigger.

I haven't touched mine, it was great from the factory. Some people see fit to adjust theirs.

I should have added: The American has standard 3/8 dovetails. So any regular standard ring bases will fit. The BKL mount will fit 3/8 or 11mm dovetails, and they are very nice. But if you get the American, they aren't necessary.

If you want the best all around 9mm you can buy, get that 75B as well.

Mine is the most accurate handgun I have ever shot. (I shoot more accurately with it than with a Sig 210, and the CZ doesn't hammer bite me.)

I use if for USPSA and carry it occasionally. The trigger was a little rough initially but has smoothed out NICELY as I have shot it. I have lots of rounds through mine now. I'd hate to guess how many. Thousands. It has NEVER jammed or failed to function in any way.

452:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/gnieman/lux/small3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/gnieman/protection_2.jpg
Squirrel stew made possible by the rifle.


75B:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/gnieman/grips/grip_tape001_small.jpg

Gord
August 13, 2007, 10:42 AM
I've been sold on the 75B for a few years now, since being able to handle and shoot one at a range once; feels like it's made for my hand. Just been waiting so that I wouldn't have to bother with a neutered 10-round CA mag. I'll be picking one up in the near future.

Damn you for tormenting me with CZ porn. ;)

The only thing that really bothers me about the 452 standard/basic/whatever is that front sight hood - just looks so flat-black plasticky and cheap, and so inelegant compared to the rest of the gun. Looks like it's just slotted into the sight base - would it be easy to remove? Is the front sight even more hideous with it off? :p

IndianaBoy
August 13, 2007, 10:44 AM
I looked at a Wildcat the other day.

It's made in Russia, and it looks it.

Accuracy may be fine, but Winchester no longer makes elegant rifles. What a shame.

Savage rifles are very accurate. If you just want an accurate rifle, get the savage.

The CZs are worth the extra 100 bucks, in my opinion.

EVERYONE should have a good, accurate bolt action 22.

Gord
August 13, 2007, 10:51 AM
If you just want an accurate rifle, get the Savage.

It seems to fit the bill pretty well - accurate .22 bolt on a budget. The Accutrigger is just a bonus.

This is probably gonna sound stupid, and maybe condescending, but it's meant earnestly: what about the CZ is worth the extra hundred bucks? :o I want an American badly, I'm just not sure about dropping $370 or so on one, which seems to be the going rate online (AuctionArms, Gunbroker, GunsAmerica and even Bud's) as well as locally.

I'll be going out in a bit to price .22s, and I guess we'll see about that Savage.

IndianaBoy
August 13, 2007, 10:53 AM
You can remove the front sight hood easily.

It is metal, not plastic. Not sure if you were just referring to appearance or actual composition.

It serves a purpose though. If the sun is shining on one side of your front sight, it affects the way you perceive it, and will cause you to unconsciously change point of aim.

There is a reason for the sight hoods. Kind of odd (to me) that you don't like them. I think the Lux and Ultra Lux with the irons are some of the most elegant looking rimfire rifles being made. Absolutely handsome to behold, in my opinion.

The Americans are very nice as well. But I wanted iron sights.

I personally don't care for the Varmint. By all accounts on rimfirecentral, it doesn't shoot any better, and it is muzzle heavy, so it doesn't handle as well while hunting.

I know bull barrels have their place. My 220 Swift has one. But light rifles are a joy for most real purposes.

ArmedBear
August 13, 2007, 10:56 AM
That 'goofy euro stock' gives a perfect cheek weld when shooting with iron sights on the Lux, Ultra Lux, or Trainer model.


Yeah, but the Euro stock design causes more felt recoil. Watch out if you shoot Stingers...;)

IndianaBoy
August 13, 2007, 10:57 AM
Hold them both, look at them side by side, and you will see the difference in workmanship.

Only you can decide if it is worth the extra money, to you.


One note: My CZ 452 action was not particularly smooth at first. After cycling it while well oiled a few hundred times in the process of having a lot of fun shooting it A LOT. It is like butter. It was still smoother than any new Savage I have handled.

However the Savage 17HMR I bought for my dad slicked up nicely, I put a little flitz on the bolt and worked it a few hundred times. Like glass as well.

I'm not knocking Savage rifles. They are excellent, unless you like the extra 'pretty' that you get with a CZ. I do. :)

IndianaBoy
August 13, 2007, 11:02 AM
I definitely think the sights add to the look of the rifle.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/gnieman/lux2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/gnieman/lux1.jpg

Compare to the savage that I traded towards my CZ.

(I got my CZ for 300 out the door, 150 cash after getting 150 for the Savage.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/gnieman/savage_hmr.jpg

IndianaBoy
August 13, 2007, 11:03 AM
I will NEVER part with my CZ until I give it to my son or grandson someday.

It would be the last gun I would sell... seriously.

eliphalet
August 13, 2007, 11:09 AM
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=CZ+22&osCsid=97a285dad587aeb2c39f95ad5c257cac&x=15&y=3

Gord
August 13, 2007, 11:19 AM
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/a...57cac&x=15&y=3

Already looked, but thanks. :p

IndianaBoy, thanks for all your feedback - nice to be able to get concise answers :) With regards to the front sight, personal preference I guess - it's just that the rest of the rifle is so sleek and streamlined.

Maybe I'm just used to the irons on my Savage - the front sight is a tiny little blade. Actually lends itself to precision shooting much better than the wide, handgun-style sights on the Rem 597.

CZguy
August 13, 2007, 11:27 AM
what about the CZ is worth the extra hundred bucks?

Read about it here.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18

Gord
August 13, 2007, 11:49 AM
I don't like RimfireCentral much - they need a General forum. Having the subforums divvied up by mfr pretty much guarantees that the only thing that ever goes on in them is predictable "my xyz rocks" threads and troubleshooting for that particular mfr. There aren't a whole lot of comparison threads or meaningful pro/con discussions, just a bunch of "hey my 7th CZ rifle is as accurate and purdy as the other six."

I'll see if I can find a Savage locally for $250 or less OTD. If not, I'll try to bargain and barter my way to a 452 American. Too bad the only place that stocks CZs locally has an "all sales final" policy, else I'd just go pick up the basic 452 for $290 and try it out to see how the Euro stock felt.

I suppose I should have subtitled this thread "talk me into spending $400 on a .22" - thanks for being patient while I agonize over the decision, all. ;)

CZguy
August 13, 2007, 02:09 PM
just a bunch of "hey my 7th CZ rifle is as accurate and purdy as the other six."


I'm not sure what you mean, I only own eight of them. :D

CZs are addictive, something about the all wood and steel. (except the magazine well, and that can be fixed) Many RemWinRugSavgs had to be sold to feed this addiction.

I suppose I should have subtitled this thread "talk me into spending $400 on a .22" - thanks for being patient while I agonize over the decision, all.

I would go with a $75.00 used Marlin model 60, you can't beet the accuracy for the price.

KaiserBen
August 13, 2007, 02:29 PM
I have a CZ452 Lux, and I agree with the overall sentiment in this thread. It was well worth the $320 I paid, plus the ~$100 for a mount and scope and the $20 I spent later on a trigger kit. It is one of the most accurate rifles I own, while being visually appealing, easy to handle, and having a wonderful trigger ($20 Eric Brooks kit really is worth it). All told, I spent near $500 on a .22, on a student's budget. Worth every penny. One caveat, mags aren't cheap, buy the metal ones if you can (never had the plastic one fail, but the metal ones look much sturdier).

DWH
August 13, 2007, 02:59 PM
If you're fretting over ~$150 for a rifle your grandkids will someday be able to use, perhaps you should just get your cheap quad and run it into the ground. Then, when you're scrapping it, you can wonder why you didn't get the CZ a few years back when you had the chance to get one inexpensively.

Just because you don't like the format of Rimfire Central, doesn't mean you shouldn't peruse the trading post classifieds for a good deal on a used rifle!

jefnvk
August 13, 2007, 03:55 PM
Is there a difference between the 452 Trainer and the 513 Basic other than the stock and forty bucks?

Sights, adjustible trigger.

About the best reccomendation that I can give about the CZ, all my friends have loved it. Usually a couple hate something about any given rifle, but I can't find a single person that has a complaint about it.

As far the goofy euro stock, it is VERY comfortable.

Kilgor
August 13, 2007, 08:42 PM
Why aren't you considering a Marlin bolt action?

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/BoltAction22/925.aspx

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/BoltAction22/981T.aspx

Gord
August 13, 2007, 09:46 PM
Why aren't you considering a Marlin bolt action?

Haven't heard any high praise on 'em - or anything about them at all, really. Local gunshop owner did suggest Savage and Marlin for accurate low-cost bolts today though.

Looks are a factor, and the stock on the Marlin 60 and its copycats (10/22, et al) is butt-ugly to me. Hopefully the stocks on Marlin's bolts don't look so rounded and chunky. I'll take a look at 'em. :)

All else being equal, I'd rather have the Savage for the Accutrigger.

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