[envonge]

What would a good round be for my 12 gauge shotgun for home defense? I was thinking some kind of buckshot rounds.

Maybe these.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=513075&t=11082005

Thanks

[wdlsguy]

Those are really going to kick. You would need a shotgun with 3-1/2" chambers as well.

I keep 2-3/4" reduced-recoil OO buckshot loads on hand for this purpose.

[supraneurotoxin]

mine eats wolf 00 buck(see thru, so I don't confuse them with other loads. plus it's really cool to see the shot in there;)) and reduced recoil brenike tactical home defense slugs.

[Novus Collectus]

I have seen this asked before many times and what I have concluded from reading many learned responses is that unless you are shooting in a big room at a distance, just about any shotgun round is good.
Even if you are using subsonic birdshot out of a 12 gage, at 20 feet it would have much more damaging effect than the majority of home defense handguns people would use IMO.
If you are expecting on shooting down a hallway at over 7 yards distance, then bucksot of some kind would be preferable because of the spread and decreased penetration at that distance, but IMO #4 should be good enough at distances encountered in a non-mansion residence.
The drawbacks to larger buckshot in a residence is wall over penetration, but with #4 buckshot you do not have to worry about it as much, so if you chose that, then you are probably right.
Personally I have 000 or 00 buck loaded in my HD shotgun, but that is a personal preference probably not based in actual practicality.

[MillerTimeLV]

There is a ton of info on this topic if you search the forum. You will find almost everyone suggests 00 Buck but you'll find a few who will say slugs or a combo of the two.
I just bought my first 12ga at the gun show and the guy at the ammo booth suggested slugs. However, I went with the consensus and I have it loaded with 00 buck.

[20nickels]

#1 Buckshot scores the most hits on blood vessels on clothed individuals without overpenetration. This has been beaten to death.

[2TransAms]

I switched from Hornady TAP Light Magnum to Winchester Ranger Reduced Recoil. Lots easier on my skinny shoulder.

[jcord]

The very best buckshot load ever developed for the 12 gauge shotgun is #1 buck.

It was proven to have the best balance of penetration and pellet count. The #1 uses a 30 caliber pellet and holds a lot of them (I can not remember the exact number for a 2 3/4 shell but the 3 inch holds 24) The pellet size was set for best performance from choked barrels and will run through a full choked barrel without deforming.

It didn't have the name "00" so it took second fiddle to an inferrior round. The 00 and 000 buck pellets were designed around the common shotgun of the 18th century (the 10 gauge)

Alas, the #1 buck load has become nearly impossible to locate. When I find it I buy a lot of it. My favorite load is the federal premium in 2 3/4 or 3 inch. Either will kill deer at ranges that surprize you. (buckshot is common for deer hunting in the south).

[RNB65]

As many rounds of 00Buck as you can fit inside it. Nuff said...

[clone]

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=232244&t=11082005

cheap(lots of practice) and effective ;)

[Fred Fuller]

I first heard the "#1 buck is best" theory when I took a hunter safety class in high school more years ago than I like to think about. In the decades since then I have yet to own a 12 gauge that will pattern #1 worth a darn. True, #1 has more pellets of a potentially useful size than any comparable load. But I have yet to find a barrel that will effectively utilize that potential.

Unrealized potential doesn't help me. Pellets not delivered on target are a potential harm, not a help- I don't believe in "to whom it may concern" in defensive shooting, especially with a shotgun. I want every buckshot pellet in the shell on a sheet of 8X11" notebook paper at 25 yards, or there's more work to be done on that particular barrel (or failing that, it finds a new home). I have found several loads of 00 buck that will produce those results in several different barrels. So I use 00. It's the pellet size that has the longest track reord in antipersonnel use, that's good enough for me.

If I ever find a barrel and load of #1 that will meet my basic patterning criterion, then I'll load #1- IN THAT GUN. The others will still get 00.

Granted my circumstances are different than those of some of the other folks here. I live waaaay out in rural NC. It'll likely take a county deputy or state trooper half an hour or more to get here if I have to call 911 (assuming they can find us at all), depending on who's on duty and where they are patrolling when the call comes in. If something comes up out here, we get to handle Round One all by ourselves- and likely Two and Three as well.

Being rural, distances tend to run longer here, and there's no guarantee the fight won't be outside and not inside. It's 50 yards from my front door to the driveway gate in front of the house, for example. With a Sidesaddle full of slugs that the gun is zeroed for, ranges out to a hundred yards are not that big a deal to cover. Much further than that and it might well be difficult to make a case for legitimate self defense.

If it were just a question of the few feet across the bedroom to the bedroom door, it wouldn't really make that much difference what was in the magazine. But I have no guarantee what sort of situation might come up or whether it might be inside or outside. The up side to our situation is that I don't have to worry about overpenetration because the neighbors are so far away.

That's my situation here, and the reason why the defensive shotguns at Casa Lapin are loaded one round short with 00 in the magazines and slugs in the Sidesaddles. That's the best bet for handling whatever situation we might face here with a shotgun, as best I can tell.

Almost certainly your situation will be different from ours, your requirements will be different, your need to be concerned about overpenetration and other safety factors will be different. Because 00 backed up by slugs in a tight-patterning shotgun is what I choose, that doesn't mean it's what you need.

Adapt your shotgun and your choices of ammunition to fit YOUR needs, not mine or someone else's. If you live in an apartment or duplex in a city, you have a lot different scenario to think about and a different set of concerns to work through. There is no 'one size fits all' answer to the question of 'the best' ammunition for the defensive shotgun. The only single answer that works consistently is, "It depends... ."

Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

[Dane]

bird shot will get the job done

[sacp81170a]

I want every buckshot pellet in the shell on a sheet of 8X11" notebook paper at 25 yards,

Have you tried the Federal 2 3/4" buffered loads? I've been using those in #1 buck for a couple years now and I can get all 16 pellets in the 9 ring of a B-27 target at 25 yards with both my Mossberg 500 and 590A1. I'm not sure how big an area that is, but it's not too much bigger than an 8 1/2x11 sheet of paper. The only problem is that it's getting harder and harder to find so I have to special order it.

[Dave McCracken]

I've shot some Fed 1 buck that produces nice 25 yard patterns, but not every time. Every 2-3 shots a few pellets end up WAY out.,

Not good enough, yet....

[rantingredneck]

bird shot will get the job done

Depends on which job you mean. Killing dove and quail, yep, works great. Stopping a BG standing in your hallway spraying lead at you and your family, maybe, maybe not. Why chance it?


This thread reminds me that I have some number 4 buck sitting in the safe unpatterned. I smell a range report coming :).

That being said for now it's remington reduced recoil 00 buck for me. It passes the 25 yd pattern test in my 20inch IC 870 barrel. I keep four brenneke slugs in the sidesaddle though. They pass the 100 yd. pattern test. :)

[Zoogster]

This is asked about once a week, and gets answered in more or less detail depending on occasion.

Keep in mind "tactical" or "reduced recoil" means reduced power in either velocity or payload or both.

[ArchAngelCD]

I keep my Mossberg 500 loaded with 2 3/4" #4 Buckshot for HD.

[Geno]

7 rounds of 12-pellot 00 buckshot & 1 ounch slugs in the following combination:

1) Winchester 12-pellot 00 buckshot
2) Wolf 1 ounce slugs
3) Winchester 12-pellot 00 buckshot
4) Wolf 1 ounce slugs
5) Winchester 12-pellot 00 buckshot
6) Wolf 1 ounce slugs
7) Winchester 12-pellot 00 buckshot

If my Kimber Warrior in .45 ACP can't handle matters, my Remington 870 Tactical 12 gauge can. It gives me enough comfort to sleep well.

[Saturnine]

What would the slugs do that the buckshot would not? And why do most of you prefer to keep it in the sidesaddle and not in the magazine?

[Geno]

Slugs penetrate through doors, walls & heavy clothes. Buckshot spreads out and causes immediate damage to stop attacks instantly. Most people call buckshot center of messy. Mine is loaded 24/7. I don't believe in loading during an attack.

Perfect thread...thanks for starting it!

Question: Have any of you heard of Aguila 1.5" (yes, 1 1/2 inch) shotgun shells?! They have the same weight of shot and velocity, but are simply shorter?! Hello?! How?! Do they feed reliably? I'm not convinced. Here is the link: http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=120_205&products_id=619

[Fred Fuller]

Slugs increase the range of a shoutgun beyond the effective range of buckshot, depending on the ability of the shooter to hit with them.

Slugs penetrate barriers to a much greater extent that buckshot, an advantage if your assailant barricades himself behind your refrigerator but a disadvantage if overpenetration is a concern.

So for some defensive shotgunners, slugs stay in reserve unless the situation calls for their use either due to a need for additional range or additional penetration.

As to the minishells, they are cute- but I wouldn't count on them to function save in a break-open shotgun or the shotgun that was made specifically for them (a genuinely odd duck, that one). I have heard claims that this or that model pumpgun will handle them reliably but I have yet to see a repeating shotgun I would count on in a pinch to function with them. YMMV of course.

lpl/nc

[jcord]

Quote:
I want every buckshot pellet in the shell on a sheet of 8X11" notebook paper at 25 yards,

Have you tried the Federal 2 3/4" buffered loads? I've been using those in #1 buck for a couple years now and I can get all 16 pellets in the 9 ring of a B-27 target at 25 yards with both my Mossberg 500 and 590A1. I'm not sure how big an area that is, but it's not too much bigger than an 8 1/2x11 sheet of paper. The only problem is that it's getting harder and harder to find so I have to special order it.

I second the Federal premium buffered loads. I own half a dozen different 12 gauge shotguns. All of my shotguns love the Federal #1 Premium buffered load. 2 of my guns are 870s one is a stoeger coach gun. One is a mossberg 590.

At any rate go with what you know. I know #1 works for me.

[dfaugh]

NO shot cup so it spreads to about 24" at 40 feet (The longest shooting distance in my house) out of my cylinder bore Mossberg "Special Purpose".

7 rounds x 15 .32 caliber pellets = 105 chunks of lead in the air, real fast

In my situation, I don't need to worry about overpenetration



P.S. These DO "kill at both ends"

[kellyj00]

dragon's breath rounds and a fire extinquisher.

I've got Winchester rifled slugs alternating with 3" 00 buckshot in my mag tube on remington 870. I've never had to shoot anyone with it, but I'm thinking it I do either one would be just as effective.

odd are that you'll never need to use that shotgun, just buy enough ammo to get comfortable in practice, then have a few rounds laying around. As a note, ammo lasts for decades and will fire without issue.

[Fred Fuller]

I second the Federal premium buffered loads.

OK, I'll bite. 8^)

Somebody who has some, please look on a box and give me Federal's stock number for that load. If the Federal Premium boxes I have on hand in the MISC SLUG & BUCK ammo can (5-round boxes) are any indication, it's on the end flap in the lower right hand corner in small letters/numbers.

The box in hand says "Federal Premium Buckshot P154 00" on the right side of the flap, it's their 2 3/4" Premium 00 9-pellet load. Of course the #1 load will have a different stock number.

Second question is, where are you folks finding this paragon of buckshot loads available for sale? I've never seen any on the shelf anywhere, but then I don't get out much 8^).

Thanks in advance,

lpl/nc

[rantingredneck]

Is that the one with the "flight control" wad that's supposed to throw a "one ragged hole" pattern at 25 yds?

[Geno]

Lee:

Have you ever tried or tested the buckshot/slug 12 gauge? Apparently is has a round ball slug & #1 buckshot pellets in each shell. Makes me wonder.

Great feedback about the purpose and performance of slugs. We bought this house with de se in mind...it is brick, but more important is the back-drop. Even if a slug did over-penetrate the back of the house (doubtful), it would hit a 20' tall wall of dirt. Our back yard slops upward 20' over the distance of about 30 feet. It's a Hades of a hill to mow!!! Too, the houses to the left and right are also brick, and none of our houses have side-wall windows. I love that! All windows are on the front/rear of the homes. It is an awesome set-up for security. :)

I will affirm one fact...I keep slugs already loaded in my shotgun for the eventuality that someone does get inside of our home, past the dogs. You are correct about the penetration, etc. If anyone is interested in studying the penetration of their preferred round, be that pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun, literally from .22LR right up to and including .50 BMG, there are some excellent videos on the market. I have listed them several times. Those who wonder why I load with what I do, simply need to view these videos; you will no longer wonder.

Any feedback you have on the 12 gauge slug/buckshot shells is appreciated (here is the link):

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1307

Doc2005

[Fred Fuller]

Doc,

The 'buck and ball' style loads were developed back in the Revolutionary War era for smoothbore muskets. Notoriously inaccurate weapons, this load was intended to increase their chances of inflicting a wound- ANY wound- on massed adversaries at a distance of 50 yards or so.

That isn't the situation (I hope!) we face today when questions of self defense and home defense with a shotgun arise. We may face a single adversary, or more than one. But we will be firing at discrete targets with the intention of keeping ALL our projectiles on that target. After all, misses do nothing as far as incapacitating an assailant is concerned, and may pose a hazard for innocents elsewhere.

This is just me, and I mean no braggadocio by saying it, but I intend to hit what I shoot at with any firearm I own. I do not ascribe to a "spray and pray" or "to whom it may concern" theory of defensive shooting. A shotgun is no different in that regard.

I like 12 gauge shotguns for defense because they have a .730" bore and can rapidly, repeatedly and accurately launch a projectile weight of an ounce or so at a useful velocity (about 1600 FPS). Those projectiles can be multiple small ones, or they can be single large ones. For close range use (inside 25 yards) I prefer buckshot, because it has a reasonable chance of stopping an assailant with one good hit (and one shot is all I might be able to manage). If more penetration or more range is needed, I want slugs easily available on the gun.

None of that came down a mountain on a stone tablet with Moses. It's just me, and the conclusions I have come to after years of experience, observation, training and practice.

Those old Brown Bess muskets had a bore diameter of .750". Interesting, isn't it? How close that is to a 12 bore? But the musket had a smaller projectile than a modern slug- musket balls were cast undersize, and were round, so they weighed less. Muzzle velocities were somewhat lower with the musket too (depending on how much powder from the paper cartridge went into the priming pan, and how much got spilled trying to pour it down the barrel). But all in all, a modern shotgun with slugs in the right hands can be MUCH more accurate than a military musket of the time the buck and ball load was in use. No need to waste that advantage IMHO by reverting to a load that was developed and intended to inflict some sort of damage, to someone, somewhere.

hth,

lpl/nc

[sacp81170a]

Somebody who has some, please look on a box and give me Federal's stock number for that load.

If it's the number I'm thinking it is, it's P156 1B.

Second question is, where are you folks finding this paragon of buckshot loads available for sale?

Ahh, there's the problem. I first ran across it in Wal-mart about 4 years ago and tried some. Since then, I've only seen it on their shelves occasionally. I've started ordering mine through one of the local gun stores. I may be paying a little bit of a price premium over Wally World, but at least I know I can get it when I need it and I don't mind supporting my local gun stores.

Edit:

Tried searching on Federal's web site for it, no dice. Then I searched the web and I can't find it for sale anywhere else, either. I haven't bought any for a while, so I hope it's not out of production. :(

Guess I better save what I've got and train with the 00 for now...

[sacp81170a]

Is that the one with the "flight control" wad that's supposed to throw a "one ragged hole" pattern at 25 yds?

Nope, that'd be the "Federal Premium Law Enforcement with FliteControl Wad". That stock number is LE132 00. 9 pellets of 00 buck at 1145 fps. The #1 buck says "1 Buck Magnum 20 Pellets" on the flap right under the "12GA 2 3/4 IN". I was mistaken about the pellet count in my earlier post: I remembered it being 16 pellets, but the box says 20. It doesn't say what the muzzle velocity is supposed to be, but it isn't "reduced recoil", that's for sure!

Tried some of Tactical 00 buck at the range this morning, and I put three rounds on an 8.5 x 11" sheet of paper at 25 yards with it. I'm pretty impressed with it, even with the reduced muzzle velocity.

[Fred Fuller]

OK, I searched "P156 1B" and got one hit that wasn't an airport repaving contract- https://www.vangcomp.com/Pattern_glenn.html . So at least it USED to exist- but according to Federal's current list at http://www.federalcartridge.com/ballistics/Ammo_Search.aspx?act=choose&firearm=5&s1=1 , there are no 12 gauge #1 buck Premium loads available. Seems to be a 'no joy' situation- too bad, I'd have tried some if it were out there still.

Anyone else know of a premium load of 2 3/4" #1 buck with extra hard and/or plated pellets, with buffering material, loaded in a plastic shot cup? A load like that that might have a chance of patterning well.

lpl/nc

[sacp81170a]

Well, wouldn't ya know it. :( I've got about 6 boxes of it left. The only other #1 buck I've been able to find has been either Winchester in 12 gauge or Federal in 16 gauge. Rats! :banghead:

Looking at the results in the chart, I can only say that my patterns with it at 25 yards appear to be better than what they had. I'll burn a box of it at the range tomorrow and let you know the results for sure rather than relying on my memory. The other five boxes, I'm keepin'. I'll have to get some of the Winchester #1 buck and give that a try, but it seems that the argument for #1 buck as a defense load is moot if you can't get it.

[The Deer Hunter]

bird shot will get the job done

If your hunting birds....

[mpmarty]

I will continue to use my kinder gentler #4 3" magnum in my 500 thanks. If they're outside they can deal with my Saiga 7.62x51 with 168gr HPBTs even thought Sierra says not to use them on "game".:evil:

[Nameless_Hobo]

Find yourself a brand of buckshot and a brand of slugs, either 2 3/4 inch or 3 inch. I'd load the tube with buckshot and have some slugs in a butt cuff or side saddle incase you need to hit deep.
3.5 inch doesn't offer an advantage in self defense, lest you're fighting bigfeet.

Do NOT use birdshot. Period.
I don't care that Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, the fudd at the gunshop, the prophet Muhammad, Buddah, Zeus, that guy who claimed to use it in the army/SWAT, et cetera et cetera recommended it.
Birdshot is NOT for humans. Not Swan loads, quail loads not ANYTHING.
Yes, it will work, sometimes, but it won't work reliably.

[cuukoo1]

"I don't care that Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, the fudd at the gunshop, the prophet Muhammad, Buddah, Zeus, that guy who claimed to use it in the army/SWAT, et cetera et cetera recommended it.
Birdshot is NOT for humans. Not Swan loads, quail loads not ANYTHING.
Yes, it will work, sometimes, but it won't work reliably."

this reply is what i've been reading for hours to find.

i bought a shotgun today for #1 the sound it makes when cocked for the two legged critters. #2 close range self defense with one shot .

from what i understand i need to get 00 . i'm learning . some comments on here seem to indicate everyone is an expert marksman. i'm not. average middle aged woman aware enough to know i should learn more.

[Fred Fuller]

Hello, cuukoo1, and welcome to THR. Hope you find the place useful and hospitable.

I"d like to invite you to visit http://www.corneredcat.com/TOC.aspx , a web site put up by one of the members here at THR. You might find it useful, though I don't think Kathy has gotten around to shotguns much yet.

I'd encourage you not to put overly much confidence in the sound of a pumpgun racking as a deterrent. It might work, but it might not. And if it doesn't work, then you are going to have to have a Plan B. Always have a Plan B... in your case, it sounds as if it's plan B for buckshot. That will definitely work if you do your part. But don't underestimate ANYTHING fired out of a shotgun- even blanks can (and have) been lethal. Birdshot too, if the range is close enough.

My wife is a petite 60-something and is quite comfortable with a shotgun (for more see my post at http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3631368&postcount=6 ), there's no reason anyone who is physically able can't completely master the gun in a relatively short time.

There are some links to 'shotgun 101' threads at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=2766 , and some of these might be helpful to you if you are new at shotgunning. Do take care that your gun fits you properly, that your 'handedness' matches your dominant eye, and that your gun mount is in good form. Of course you should have good eye and ear protection when shooting, and start out with light loads to begin with.

If you want to find a trainer, there are several options. Perhaps the most widely available avenue available to you is to look for an NRA certified trainer who's working near you. Just go to http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp and search for one in your area.

I hope all this is helpful- Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

[cuukoo1]

thank you for the response. visited each link and found each very helpful. have located a shooting club in heber springs, which is just 10 miles. the shotgun i purchased yesterday is a winchester model 1200 police 12 ga 2 3/4 & 3" made in new haven, conn. U.S.A. winchester proof stainless steel. will keep reading the helpful info. and practice, practice, practice. again, thanks to all .;)

[New_geezer]

I seem to recall a similar thread that made had some counter intuitive points made by LE types. I will restate as best as I remember.

-- Shot spread is not much of an issue up to about 7-10 yards so regardless of bb size, it will tend to strike as a single mass, at least regards felt impact.

--Assuming the shot is not immediately lethal, 00 buck tends to make nice clean holes a doctor can treat easily.

--Small shot creates a bunch of little holes all over and it's next to impossible to get them all. Tissue is usually torn up pretty badly with a good chance of infection

As Lee said in an early post, consider your circumstances. A slug is just out of the question for me, even 00 buck is a bit dicey. Size 7 shot or smaller is probably too small but I don't feel undefended with 4-6 shot. At the fairly close ranges of a likely (for me) HD situation, I think it will do just fine.

[20nickels]

Come on guys, the Birdshot is for birds. As a foolish child I can recall shooting an overripe pumpkin on a fencepost at less than 9ft with 12ga 6 shot and a 28in. barrel...no eye protection :uhoh:. Fully expecting it to explode upon impact like struck by the hand of god I was astounded, not only did the pumpkin stay centered on the fencepost, but very few of the pellets even penetrated.
....Buckshot is for the bucks. So you don't like #1 buck, it overpenetrates for your needs. Then get some #2 buck. Well that underpenetrates. Then get some 0 buck.
For my needs 00 buck overpenetrates too much as well as slugs. The 2 3/4 12ga will do whatever you wish it to do. Make it dance.

[Sir Aardvark]

give me Federal's stock number for that load.

I have "H132 00" - it is Federal Power Shok 9 pellet 1140FPS; these cartridges produce very good patterns out of my 18" cylinder bore.

The very best patterns I have ever got have been Hornady TAP. They extend the B zone even in my 18" cylinder barrel.

I put my buddy's 870 Police 18" improved cylinder barrel on my shotgun and it was amazing! It was a very noticeable difference and I will be getting one of these soon. This barrel was rifle-sighted and was also deadly accurate with slugs (compared to my bead sight).

Maybe Lee Lapin will want to part with one of his rare and coveted 18" modified cylinder barrels so I can check it out on my gun?