C&R Pistols


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Picknlittle
August 13, 2007, 10:52 PM
Besides the 7.62 Nagant, CZ-52 and CZ-82, what other C&R handguns are out there? It seems these three are about all I see in the surplus listing of rags like Shotgun News.

What is another good resource?

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MartinBrody
August 13, 2007, 11:10 PM
Don't forget East German & Russian military Makarovs.

There are plenty of handguns out there more than 50 yrs. old, those you see in shotgun news are just what is coming over by the crate right now, and usually is cheap. But don't overlook 1911s, P-38s, and the tons of other cool old pistols out there.

Check out Empire Arms, he usually has more than just what is surplus o' the day.
http://www.empirearms.com/

Also check out this C&R forum for ideas.
http://pub176.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum

jonnyc
August 13, 2007, 11:11 PM
Add Lugers, Nambus, Lahtis, Tokarevs, Mausers, etc.

MartinBrody
August 13, 2007, 11:13 PM
Almost forgot...

http://www.auctionarms.com/

http://www.gunbroker.com/

At least for ideas & prices.

bluetopper
August 13, 2007, 11:41 PM
The three you mentioned pretty much sums it up as far as I know on the current market. All Makarovs have been sold and the ones you see from time to time are on the second hand market.

woad_yurt
November 21, 2007, 12:48 PM
Online auction sites have tons of available H&Rs, Iver Johnsons, S&Ws, etc, etc, etc.

JBP
November 21, 2007, 02:19 PM
J&G (http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/c/c-r-guns/cPath/290) is selling the Polish and Romanian Tokarevs as C&R. I picked up one of each and had them out to the range Sunday. Both performed flawlessly. If you were getting just one I would recommend the Romanian. It's $60 cheaper ($10 extra for a Polish w/o cracked grips) and comes with an extra brand new mag (wrapped and loaded with cosmoline). Mine was also more accurate the the Polish model.

AIM (http://www.aimsurplus.com/) had Star B 9mm. 1911 style except for the safety grip.

Gator
November 21, 2007, 07:09 PM
Any handgun made before 1957 :)

woad_yurt
November 21, 2007, 08:31 PM
Any handgun made before 1957 as long as it's been also classified as C&R eligible. Just because it's 50 years or more old, it doesn't automatically become a C&R gun. It needs to be approved as such first.

joab
November 21, 2007, 08:59 PM
Aren't the Star Model Bs listed at AIM C&R

Gator
November 21, 2007, 09:22 PM
Just because it's 50 years or more old, it doesn't automatically become a C&R gun. It needs to be approved as such first.

Sorry, but that is completely wrong. C&Rs are anything over 50 years old, and what is on the list. Check out the definition of a C&R on the ATF (http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm) website.

woad_yurt
November 21, 2007, 10:48 PM
In order to be on that list, it has to be approved as C&R eligible first. How do you think it gets on the list?

Gator
November 21, 2007, 11:01 PM
In order to be on that list, it has to be approved as C&R eligible first.

Of course, but that has nothing to do with the 50 year rule. The list is of guns that were deemed C&Rs, but not yet 50 years old, at the time the list was created. Guns are added to the list today by request, but nothing is ever taken off, even if they are now over 50 and no longer need to be separately listed.

Read the definition of a C&R on the ATF website.

Ed Ames
November 21, 2007, 11:40 PM
As I read it....

There are three ways a gun can gain C&R status. "To be recognized... firearms must fall into one of the following categories"

1) Firearm manufactured at least 50 years prior to today's date, not including replicas thereof (in other words a commercial replica luger isn't a C&R even though an original commercial Luger is)

2) Firearms certified by the curator of a city, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be a curio or relic

3) Any other firearm which derives a substantial part of its monetary value from the fact that it is novel, rare, bizarre, or because of its association with some historical figure, period, or event.

A brand new gun can be a C&R. All you need to do is convince the BATFE its primary value is as a collector's item. The brown C&R list has instructions (page 9 and 10) for getting a determination for a gun or family of guns. A used gun that is indistinguishable except by serial number from a million like it can be a curio because of who owned it or how it was used, which is why there are so many specific serial numbers called out in the list. A gun marketed as a "special edition" (and for which a premium was charged) is also going to be a C&R basically from day one which is why the published C&R list has so many entries like "Smith & Wesson, City of Los Angeles 200th Anniversary Commemorative model 19 revolver, cal. .357" ...

The troublesome part is "original configuration".... the assumption is that the pistols Arafat wore when he met with Clinton would cease to be collector's items if you (not Arafat) added tritium sights, a krylon black finish, and compensators. That's why most companies won't sell Tokarevs as C&R even thought they might otherwise qualify... they've been modified from original configuration. That's not a CFR issue though. It's a judgment call of the BATFE.

I could be wrong about part of it, but that's what the BATFE material says.

Novus Collectus
November 22, 2007, 12:18 AM
Any handgun made before 1957 Actually any handgun made before today's date (November 22nd) in 1957 barring any leap year calculations possibly is automatically a C&R. ;)

Gator
November 22, 2007, 12:23 AM
Yer right!

Hkmp5sd
November 22, 2007, 01:28 AM
The troublesome part is "original configuration".... the assumption is that the pistols Arafat wore when he met with Clinton would cease to be collector's items if you (not Arafat) added tritium sights, a krylon black finish, and compensators.

As long as no permanent changes are made and you retain the original parts and can easily restore the gun to original configuration, ATF claims it is still C&R elligible.

gcrookston
November 22, 2007, 01:32 AM
Basically, there are hundreds, maybe thousands on the batf list. Certainly broad strokes like 50 year old hand guns and rifles, but there are individual exemptions and additions made all the time.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/

Autolycus
November 22, 2007, 01:33 AM
Once it is a CFR could you modify it?

If I found an old WW II 1911 that had all original parts could I then have a gunsmith change parts for me to make it more modern?

Novus Collectus
November 22, 2007, 02:54 AM
Once it is a CFR could you modify it?

If I found an old WW II 1911 that had all original parts could I then have a gunsmith change parts for me to make it more modern?Yes.

The only thing is if you change the configuration you can no longer sell it as a C&R unless you changed it back before transferring.
There is a complicated deal with a few certain C&R rifles that would be illegal to change the configuration of unless one replaced a certain number of parts with American made parts, but I don't think there are any handguns that this odd situation would apply to.

Autolycus
November 22, 2007, 03:25 AM
Thanks for the information Novus Collectus.

SaxonPig
November 22, 2007, 12:51 PM
As I understand it, the only guns disqualified as C&R if modified from original form are military rifles. Put a new stock on a 1903 Springfield and it's no longer C&R according to the ATF. I do not see this rule affecting handguns and I believe as long as it's 50 years old a pistol is C&R even if modified. Same with sporting rifles and shotguns. It seems only the military rifles cannot be altered.

And a gun does not need to be specifically authorized or listed to be C&R. It only needs to be 50 years old to be automatically considered C&R.

Hkmp5sd
November 23, 2007, 12:13 AM
It seems only the military rifles cannot be altered.

It applies to all firearms that are less than 50 years of age and have been added by ATF to the C&R List. It is just that few handguns are modified from their original configuration because of their value.

You can put a new stock on a 1903 because it is a C&R by virtue of its age. A new stock will not change that. The catch is imported firearms. Per the 1968 CGA, the only legal way to import military firearms for civilians is if ATF classifies them as C&R. It doesn't matter if it is older than 50 years or not, the reason it is allowed to be imported is because ATF says that it is a C&R in its original, military configuration.

The prime example is the SKS. In its military configuration, it can be imported into the US. If you make alterations to the SKS, it can lose its C&R status, which can put you in violation of 922(r), which prohibits the assemply of firearms from parts which would make a firearm illegal for importation.

Most of these people that buy a SKS and slap on a pistol grip stock and a 30-round magazine are violating the law, they just don't know it. As most gun fanatics know, you can do ATF's "parts count" game and get around 922(r). The average Joe Blow doesn't know that.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. The Chinese Norinco SKS imported prior to 1989 is exempt from 922(r). The Post-89 Norincos were imported without bayonets because ATF ruled them "sporting" firearms in that configuration. Adding a bayonet puts them in violation of 922(r).

And yet, I am not aware of any incident of anyone being charged with modifying a SKS in violation of 922(r), so why worry about it. :)

BlkHawk73
November 23, 2007, 07:47 AM
Go to the ATF site and go to the C&R area. I do believe you can still view/download the entire listing of C&R guns there. Some would surprise you.

Gator
November 23, 2007, 08:15 AM
The list is not the entire list of C&R guns. All guns made at least 50 years prior to the current date are C&R. The list is those guns that may not have been 50 when added, or were added because of historical importance. The list is badly out of date, many guns on it are now over 50 so don't need to be specifically listed any more. But the ATF will not update it, they just keep adding to it.

O.S.O.K.
November 23, 2007, 11:43 AM
The auctions seem to have higher prices - but not always and of course, there are guns not currently being sold by the wholesalers.

The "trick" is to keep up with what's currently being offered and buy the ones you want as they become available. Otherwise, you end up paying more.

Again, that is for "newly available" guns - not the other thousands of models that are on the general used market.

And what you buy just depends on your personal tastes - some like "standard" cartridge chamberings only and others like unique or more interesting chamberings like the nagant.

I like both. :D

claiborne
November 23, 2007, 01:18 PM
I have a S&W 66 Dallas PD Commemorative revolver made in 1981. It is listed as a C&R by the ATFE. I traded a used .22 Golden Boy for it. One of the best gun trades I ever made. Fortunately whoever had this before it ended up in a Nevada Pawn shop, shot it quite a bit and saved me the trouble and heartache of taking a commemorative edition revolver out of the wooden display box.

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