[wnycollector]

My wife has just applied for her CCW, she enjoys shooting my .22 revolver but not any of my auto's (9mm, 9x18 and .45). Luckly she is not too recoil sensitive, she just prefers the simplicity of a revolver. I found a 3" model 36-1 in good (85%) condition that fits her well and I'm thinking of buying it ($250 otd). I have a .357 S&W 28-2, again for simplicity, I would like to load them both with +P .38 swchp's (FBI load). We would shoot wadcutters out of the model 36 90% of the time but maybe a box or 2 of the +p' a year...just to stay sharpe. Any thoughts?

[mtnbkr]

I do that all the time. Works fine in my flatlatch 36 and 37-2.

It will accelerate wear, but you'll spend more on +P ammo to get to that point that you paid for the gun.

Chris

[Pumpkinheaver]

I shoot a few +Ps in my 36 from time to time. I do try to limit them as much as I can.

[The Lone Haranguer]

An older gun like this is not specifically rated or approved for +P ammo. It will not blow up with it. What may happen over time and several thousand rounds fired is that the cylinder indexing will get out of time. Even with jacketed bullets, the pressure/velocity is not high enough to cause forcing cone or bore wear. I suspect that, in reality, your hand will give up before that gun will. ;)

[Old Fuff]

I've decided to put it this way...

You can in yours, I don't in mine - unless it's a version that is factory rated for Plus -P.

Personally, I think if either you or your wife ever has to shoot someone they won't know the difference. :scrutiny:

[35Rem]

buffalo bore is supposed to make a NON +P load like you want that shoots to the same velocity as the +P stuff...sounds too good to be true, I know...
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#standard38

[mtnbkr]

The problem is, around here at least, there isn't much in the way of non +P SD loads. The standard pressure stuff is all wadcutter or jacketed hardball. All of the HPs I've seen except for Federal's anemic 110gr Hydroshok are +P.

Chris

[M2 Carbine]

I would like to load them both with +P .38 swchp's (FBI load).

I keep +P SWCHP in all my 38 pistols and shoot a few rounds once in a while.
I practice with 158gr lead SWC bullets loaded slightly below standard.

[texas bulldog]

i seem to remember posting this before, but i'm having trouble finding it...

anyway...a while back i was looking at a flat latch model 36 no dash at my LGS. i asked the shop employee this very question, and he specifically told me not to use +P in this or any gun that is not specifically rated for it. he recounted a tale of a model 36 that had to be sent back to S&W after just five shots of the stuff.

my BS meter did raise a few degrees on this comment, for sure. but i also figured it was better to be safe than sorry, and it didn't make much sense for him to tell me a BS story that would dissuade me from buying the gun. [course i've been surprised in this regard before...]

and then of course there are also those that claim +P is simply what .38 spl used to be back in the day before it got dumbed down.

hard to say, but i think i'll stick with old fuff on this one...

[MICHAEL T]

I had a old 36 from 60's I shot the 159SWCHP +P off and on for years. Never a study diet , I carried the +P Hwas never a problem. Today I have a old Bodyguard want to guess carry load. I belive a limited amount won't hurt. Yes I belive todays 38+P are same as old 38spl. Lawyers at work.

[jaholder1971]

I've got an older Model 36, so old it's got no -# like some others.

In practice I shoot Winchester or Remington 130 grain ball. For social occasions I keep it loaded with Speer 135gr +P Gold Dots. I've shot 2 cylinders full of the Speers, they're stiff but not brutal. I don't plan on shooting +P on a regular basis, only when I probably need them.

[Old Fuff]

texas buuldog:

hard to say, but i think i'll stick with old fuff on this one...

If I had "a" revolver, and only one, and it was an older one, I probably would carry some carefully selected Plus-P once and awhile. But the fact is I don't need to because I have a snubby that's rated for Plus-P, along with some that are not.

Some folks believe they couldn't possibly survive a shooting incident unless they carry in their snubby or compact pistol the most powerful load on the market. The truth is that the best fight stopper is not a kick-butt load, but rather bullet placement where it will do the most good. I can place my shots more precisely, and do it faster, with a moderate load then the kind that kick so hard they leave your hand numb. Heavy loads in heavy guns make sense. The same cartridges in lightweight snubbies don't. At least that's the way I see it.

I am also aware that parts and competent repair persons for some of the older guns are getting fewer and fewer. These older guns are not only fine weapons, but also works of gunsmithing art. It is well said that they don't make them that way anymore because they can't afford too. I would like to think that someday when I pass them on they will still in good shape with nothing worse then normal wear.

What others do is their business.

[Iggy]

There were an awful lot of handgun cartridges that worked just fine until Elmer Keith, Jeff Cooper, and the gang, started writing for the gun rags.......

The cemeteries are full of people that were killed by underpowered bullets from .38's, .32's, .380's and 9mm's.

[sm]

Old Fuff and Iggy's post worth reading again.

I always liked and carried the standard pressure 158 gr LSWC, or LWSC-HP in Model 36, 37, Body Guard, and Model 60.
Folks that carried Colts, like Detective Specials did/do same.

Most .38spls were designed to shoot 158 gr POA/POI - which is great for shot placement. ;)

1928 Colt Detective Special I know of, currently uses standard pressure 158 gr LSWC. (note, not hollopoint).
Shoots POA/POI and is easy to shoot and get quick effective hits with.

If I want a bigger "thump" I prefer .44 Special, in standard loadings as well.

Low pressure rounds do well in enclosed areas , such as cars, small rooms, homes, apts, businesses...

[shooting on a shoestring]

It was my carry gun since the late 70s or early 80s. It was fairly loose when I got it used. I shot it mostly with 3 gr Bullseye and 158 SWC. Probably 20% were 5 gr Unique, probably 5 to 10% were 6.0 gr Unique 158 JHP(definitly +P levels). Finally stretched the cylinder gap to 0.012", and the hammer would drop in DA before the cylinder locked. S&W fixed it. Cost me $50 to send it to them, they set the barrel back, recut the forcing cone, installed a new cylinder hand, shipped it back to me for just under $100. I'm happy. I switched to a .357 SP101 a couple of years ago, but now I sometimes revert to the Mod 60 when lighter is better.

Moral of the story. +p stuff will loosen up a J-frame, given enough shooting. When you get to that point, send it back to S&W, they'll fix it, and for a small price too.

[wnycollector]

Thanks for the feedback. Since we live in NY it takes between 2months to A YEAR to get a ccw so I have time to find her just the right gun. I might pass on the 36 for now and try to find a 2.5-3" revolver that is rated for +p!

[pinkymingeo]

Shoestring has the right idea. It's unlikely you'll shoot a Smith loose. If you do, they'll fix it. Depending on how they're feeling that day, and whether they figure the lifetime warranty applies, they'll either do it for free, or dirt cheap. Just shoot the gun and don't worry about it.

[Old Fuff]

Shoestring and Pinky might be in for a shock next time around. S&W is in business to sell new guns, not necessarily fix old ones. The aren't making parts for the old-timers, and current parts don't necessarily fit. Hammers for some models being a good example.

Also they won't work on older models for which they don't have parts - for obvious reasons. :scrutiny:

[35Rem]

Sounds like a pretty good deal, and if it "fits her well" that's really important.
Nothing wrong with standard pressure loads, order some of the buffalo bore stuff and the BG won't know the difference.
You are more than likely going to practice w/standard pressure stuff anyway.
But, if it's not what you/she wants, keep looking.

[SaxonPig]

Factory +P (125/925) is not a powerful load. I consider it too underpowered for defensive use. I load 125 JHPs to 1,150 FPS for carry in my J and K frames. So far, after many hundreds of rounds through 1940s-1950s J and K frames, no problems. No modern S&W would be harmed by the weak and underpowered +P loads.

[Rick O'Shea]

I have a M36 no-dash, and run 148 gr. wadcutters through it.
Standard pressure, accurate, mild recoil, and pretty close to POA at "fighting" distances.

Wadcutters make nice clean, open holes. Open holes bleed more :) .

[Gordon]

The above advice on the 148 wadcutters is the best advice in the thread IMHO for 90% of .38 special shooters out there. I can rip off 5 wadcutter Mid range loads in 1.5 seconds into 6" at 7 yards from a 36.:) they have adaquate penetration at that distance!

[SaxonPig]

IMO anyone who relies on 38 Special mid-range wadcutters for self-defense should make sure they have their affairs in order. Almost zero stopping power.

[Old Fuff]

Almost zero stopping power.

Sure...... :confused: :confused:

How come??? :)

[Gordon]

I have KILLED more than my share of livestock with wadcutters and here is some tangible proof, not opinion:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=260768&highlight=gelatin+test+.38+wadcutter

BTW 16" penetration and .422" of sharp lead ought to get er done!

[Neo-Luddite]

My wife got her 36-3 w/3" barrel from her dad. Granted, it's a newer one than your wife's (rated for occaisonal +p use) but we load it with +P's. A couple boxes a year from a steel mod 36 in +p range I wouldn't worry about. Years back I had a 36 airweight w/ aluminum frame. I was a kid and didn't know better--so it was fed a diet of +P. Now, the only aluminum framed gun I have is my 10/22.

My wife has the lady-smith varriant (nice grip and smoothed trigger). It is a joy to shoot and even my nephews could handle it well at age 10. That barrel length has a just right feel, too.

[SaxonPig]

Back in the 1960s it was popular to load wadcutters (sometimes backwards) for defensive use. This was before the high performance ammo became readily available. Numerous magazine writers recounted their experiences and it was all bad. These slugs tumble badly and are inaccurate at high velocity and don't penetrate well at lower speeds (real bodies, not clay or gelatin) and almost never show even the least bit of expansion.

I read accounts of such loads failing to stop small pigs (40 pound range) at close range and of people accidentally shot with these target loads who sometimes didn't realize they'd been hit until someone told them. A relative who was a surgical nurse told me of a gunshot victim who took one of these target grade wadcutters to the forehead at contact distance. The slug bounced off the skull leaving powder burns and a deep scalp laceration. A bouncer in a bar was shot through the lip by an irate patron with a 38 wadcutter and the bullet was stopped by his front tooth.

I have no reason to doubt any of these stories and I have shot enough 38 wadcutter ammo into solid and semi-solid targets to know that I would not rely on it to save my life against a determined man trying to harm me. I want more velocity and some expansion from a round I depend on for self-defense.

Would I want to be shot with target ammo? Certainly not. Might this load prove fatal? Could happen, but the odds are against you in using it and I want the odds in my favor, not my opponent's.

I would never tell a man what to carry. Anyone who is comfortable with low-speed target ammo is welcome to pack it as far as I am concerned.

But like I said, make sure your will is signed.

Frankly, I find it hard to understand why anyone would need to have explained to them why a 148 grain bullet at 700 FPS doesn't make a good defensive load.

[sm]

Here is my take:

Handguns are not great to start with - still they are a portable and concealable tool in the toolbox.

No absolutes in anything, and this includes anything doing what what they are supposed to.
Be this "supposes to" coming from writing on a box of shells, magazine advertisement, what someone else wrote or says.

I grew up shooting dirt/mud. Yep the Scientific Mud/Dirt Test. Mentors did it to see how a bullet held up.
I thought they were just messing with me, a kid.
I mean many times there was a "target" in front of said dirt/mud.
Still they poked a stick in, and got an idea how far in.
Looked at the various bullets to see what it looked like.
Comparing a factory load to a reloaded one, or a batch of homemade lead bullets, or homemade lead slugs for shotguns (12, 12, 28 and .410).

Odd deal is - how scary close these bullets looked when taken from a critter shot.

Gordon,
Like you, I have seen lots of standard pressure 158 gr LRN, the so called "widow makers" put a Cow down!
Seen the 148 gr wad-cutter do the same thing, and many many times just a small "pocket pistol" like a J frame or Detective Special.

I had Mentors that had been shot with rifles in Conflicts all over the world, and here they walk up and pop a cow with plain old .38spl from a "pocket pistol".

Mentors were Mentoring, because I was asking a lot of questions.
They showed me books, some were nurses, some other Docs and ....

I get bigger and work in Main OR.
-We are going to do a Organ Harvest on someone a .22 short killed.
-We get a guy that sticks a medium frame .357 revolver in his mouth and pulls the trigger on a .357 load - and he lives.
-14 gunshot wounds and this guy is cussing up a storm.
We had no idea what he was shot with, until we retrieved them.
.380, 9mm, .38spl, .357 and .45ACP.
Cops later shared about shell casings and all to assist with all this. He lives.
-00 buckshot and this other guy, is really ticked his clothes are messed up, and he lives.

No wonder Mentors never felt bad when they got to where they could not shoot .357s and went to 38spls. No wonder when hands got worse, they did not worry about carrying standard 158 gr LRN, and when it even worse, 148 gr wad cutters.

They got what THEY could shoot, and get shot placement, quickly and effectively.
They did NOT go out looking for trouble, kept in practice evading and what to do if they could not evade, still...

Walk out with the pocket pistol and pop a cow, the deer hit on the highway, whatever...and kept on going on with life.


Folks want "nasty results" - Get a 40 oz beer bottle.
Talk about a nasty result, he died pretty quick, and quit doing what he was doing and bled out before the EMTs could arrive.
We got him for Organ Harvest.

Person that hit him, stopped a immediate threat, and just used what was handy. That bottle, on the ground tossed aside.
Thank goodness for litterbugs....

[SaxonPig]

"Handguns are not great to start with - still they are a portable and concealable tool in the toolbox.

No absolutes in anything, and this includes anything doing what what they are supposed to. Be this "supposes to" coming from writing on a box of shells, magazine advertisement, what someone else wrote or says."

In my opinion you are 100% correct in what I copied. My thinking is that, accepting the reality that any handgun is inferior for serious work, I want to give myself the best chance possible. Therefore, I would eschew (I love that word) the low-speed target ammo and use something offering more performance. Some would demand a bigger caliber. I consider the 38 Special adequate with proper loads.

[wnycollector]

problem solved...found a S&W 65-3 .357 for her. A little bit more expensive than the model 36 but now I dont have to worry about damaging the pistol with +p .38. Again thanks for ALL the input!