[Glamdring]

The hunts of a lifetime for me are Kodiac Bear and African Lion.

I would like to get one of each.

I may own true heavy rifles (.40+) someday, but I don't think they are needed for hunting bears or lion.

I do plan to own two medium calibers. Ruger No.1 in 375 H&H (the next rifle on my list). And a Pseudo Scout (more like Cooper's Lion Scout that used long loaded 350 Rem Mag) on a '98 Mauser in 9.3x62.

Wondering what your choices would be?

[BigG]

375 and 458 Magnums. :D

[stevelyn]

45-70 Gummint.

[Bigjake]

.375 H&H is real potent, never shot any animals with it besides the occasional woodchuck, but it was purchased for use on kodiak.

maybe a .700 nitro double rifle?:evil:

[BigG]

Glamdring, I suspect that the two ctgs you are thinking about are too similar, unless you are wanting pretty much the same thing in two different rigs. The 9.3x62 Mauser (I looked it up in Ctgs of the World) is pretty similar to the 35 Whelen which is pretty similar to the 375 H&H, given similar bullet weights, of course. Naturally, the H&H will have a little edge but I don't think you are going to see a dramatic difference.

When you get to the +40 calibers you will see a large increase in killing power (on both ends of the rifle!) :uhoh: :o :D

Just my two pesos, amigo.

[Brian Williams]

416 Rigby
either in a commercial Mauser or a Ruger no 3

[H&Hhunter]

No if ands or buts about it.

A 375H&H shooting a quality expanding 300gr bullet. That is the bear and lion rig. I recomend the Barnes X.

I personally do not recomend single shot rifles for dangerous game. I'd recomend a mauser type positve feed action in the turn bolt of your choice.

Second if you just have to have one a 416 of your choice also in a mauser type turn bolt such as a winchester model 70 or a CZ or a Ruger magnum rifle.

I perfer a stainless synthetic gun especially if your hunting in AK anywhere your apt to have big bears.

My personal do everything .375 is is a Stainless model 70 cut to twenty inches and topped with a Leupold 1.75X6.

I would stay away from the bigbore rifles just because your apt to be taking longer shots especiall for bear and I find I'm more handy at range with a good medium like a .375 or a .416.

[Keith]

Yeah, .375 is the classic Kodiak rifle.

I like your second choice also, but in a short action. My favorite rifle is a .350 Rem Mag in a Model Seven action. People forget (or don't know) that Kodiak terrain is largely vertical, and wet, and very densely grown in alders and chest high grass.
A short, light rifle with plenty of punch is your friend!

The Remington Custom Shop will build a .350 on a Model 7 for about $1100. Not bad for a custom rifle.

I suppose anything that will kill a Kodiak will work even better on a lion.

Keith

[Glamdring]

Well the two rifles I mention are supposed to have similar (terminal)performance. But the 375 will have same trajectory as my light rifle (308 Scout) a 375/270 Failsafe@2700 will equal trajectory of my 19" barreled 308.

The 9.3 will probably use 286 grain partitions or North Fork bullets.

The No. 1 in 375 will encourage proper shot placement. I mean if your shooting this BIG critter that can kill you and you have a single shot more likely to avoid iffy shot to start with IMHO.

The 9.3x62, for those who don't know, is based on the 30-06 family of brass. It is a bit more poweful than the 35 Whelen on paper, is legal in some African countries for DG.

In a '98 Mauser it will hold 5+1 and can be reloaded with stripper clips if needed (not that I plan to use stripper clips in the field, but you have a heck of a lot more "fire power" with a stripper clip fed 9.3x62 than any other type of rifle that one might use on DG that I know of).
***
Keith: What bullets do you use in your 350? I almost bought a Model 7 in 350 Rem when I was in a Cody, WY gunshop on vacation last year.

[Keith]

Glam,

I use 250 grain Nosler Partitions, mostly.

I've noticed a growing number of .358 bullets available, just in the last couple of years. When I got this rifle four years ago, there wasn't much of a selection. Today, you can get bullets from 180 up to 310 grain! Some are "premium" like Swift A Frame or Nosler Partition, and plenty of cheaper "plinking" bullets as well.

Midway has 33 different choices, last time I checked.

Thinks are looking up for .35's.


Keith

[CTI1USNRET]

I'd choose my Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 Govt.

[Sunray]

"A short, light rifle with plenty of punch is your friend!" Stainless steel?
A .30-06 will do for both, but not as well as a .357 H&H, but go here. There's a forum with people who have actually been to and are in Africa to be sure. It's really interesting to hear from African PH's about what is required and the best thing to use. Big bears are the classic example of shot placement. They really don't need a shootzenbanger to put down.
http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi/

[Dr.Rob]

CZ 550 magnum in 375, Barnes x bullets. Spare plastic stock for the Kodiak trip, nice wood one for Africa. Scope optional.

When going after dangerous game, a close up shot might be needed.

[nextjoe]

I'd use my custom CZ 550 in .416 Rigby with Woodleigh 410 grain softs. Woodleigh has a new 450 grain soft which might be interesting to try, too...

Best,
Joe

[s&w 24]

I'm still wishing that some company would come out with a good solid for the 405 wichester cartrige.

the other thing that is always been on my wish I could have one list is a 375 flanged double with express sights (3 leaf folding) and a tang sight.
My only current hope is that a gundealer I know gets a fixer upper in a caliber I would like even then last time I asked he was getting $700 for a 22 hornet double with a damaged stock and non working locks.

[HankB]

I've taken one African lion - probably the only one I'll ever take - and I used a .375 H&H handloaded with a 300 grain Swift A-Frame. It worked very well, and if I ever hunt Kodiak bear, I'll use the same load and rifle.

I'd advise against any sort of non-standard cartridge, as simple logistics - like the airlines separating your rifle and ammo, which are supposed to be packed in different checked bags - may effectively put your custom rifle out of action.

Try and get cartridges for some oddball wildcat - or even something uncommon, like a 9.3x62 - in Lusaka!

[DAL]

Although I've never hunted anything that could eat me, and probably never will, I still have an opinion on what I'd use to hunt with--a Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H Mag. A VERY close second would be a .45-70 Marlin lever action with HOT loads. Yup, this is one area where my trusty, insanely-accurate Winchester 670 in .30-06 would have to play second fiddle, even though I'd like to hunt the aforementioned dangerous game with it.
DAL

[nextjoe]

While the .45-70 is a fine cartridge, I'd question the wisdom of using a hot-loaded .45-70 lever gun for dangerous game. The combination of a relatively weak action + weak extraction + high pressure + high temperature is just begging for reliability problems, IMO.

A very important element of the original Nitro Express cartridges was very large case capacity, to reach the desired ballistics at very low pressure. BIG margin of safety.

Sure, that lever gun would *probably* work fine, but if my life's on the line, I'd personally rather have a gun that gives me all the horsepower I want while still WELL below the red-line. Things usually work better and more reliably when they're not pushed to their limits.

Best,
Joe

[kudu]

If I were to get a dangerous game rifle it would probably be the .416 rem in a M700. Second choice would be .416 Rigby in Ruger No.1, I love No. 1s.

I have hunted plains game in S.Africa and used the Ruger No. 1 in .338 win mag for most of the game, shot three animals with a .375 weatherby in a Remington 700 action, just to say that I used it over there.

The minimum caliber most counties will let you take dangerous game is the .375, usually in H&H. My buddy shot a cape buffalo and an eland with a .416 weatherby in a Remington 700 action, both animals went down with one shot using barnes X bullets in handloads. Both animals also had one shoulder taken out and the bullet exited the cape buffalo with a huge wound channel. But it hurt a bit to shoot it without the muzzle break.

Another friend took a brown bear at about 300 yards in Alaska with a .416 Rigby on a Ruger No. 1 action, dropped in it's tracks. With the same rifle took a six x five elk in Colorado with two shos in as many seconds. They are a very quick reloading rifle if you practice.

Hope these accounts help in your decision.

[only1asterisk]

If I were in you enviable boat, I'd combine the 2 guns and build a 9.3x64. It has the capabilities of both chamberings you listed, and while not as widely available as either, it can be had without too much fuss. You may want to consider the legalities where you wil be hunting lion,m as there are caliber restrictions in some countries. There is a huge repository of knowledge at the forums on the accuratereloading.com site. Should keep you busy for months.


David

[Wildalaska]

While the .45-70 is a fine cartridge, I'd question the wisdom of using a hot-loaded .45-70 lever gun for dangerous game. The combination of a relatively weak action + weak extraction + high pressure + high temperature is just begging for reliability problems, IMO.

Hi a properly tuned lever action rifle in 45/70, 457 magnum and/or 50 Alaskan is more than adequate for dangerous game in the hands of an experienced hunter, as demonstrated time and time again....

Heres one Hunting story (http://www.wildwestguns.com/AboutUs/A_Kamchatka_Bear/body_a_kamchatka_bear.html)

WildasceeredofbarsAlaska

[nextjoe]

Hi a properly tuned lever action rifle in 45/70, 457 magnum and/or 50 Alaskan is more than adequate for dangerous game in the hands of an experienced hunter, as demonstrated time and time again....

You might want to reread my post. I never said it was inadequate. I know all about Vince Lupo and the other guys who use their 45-70s for dangerous game. It's been beaten to death, several times over, on another forum I frequent.

What I said was that I personally want a gun with a larger margin of reliability than a loaded-to-the limits lever gun. If you're pushing up against the strength limits of the action, as some of the hot 45-70 loads are, you're compromising your reliability. You're more likely to stick a case and you won't have the camming power of a bolt-action to help you out. It'll *probably* work fine. When my butt's on the line, I want to do all I can to change that "probably" into "definitely."

So, I use a bolt-action with moderate-pressure loads. If I could afford a double (and I'd dearly love one) I'd again take care to keep pressure down, since there would be less action strength and less extraction power. Of course, most doubles are made in calibers that were purposely designed to produce very mild pressures in the first place.

And if someone offered me a free trip to Africa, with the stipulation that I only use a 45-70 lever gun, I'd surely go. But I'd be very careful in my choice of ammo and I wouldn't have the same confidence that I have in my .416 Rigby.

Best,
Joe

[Hkmp5sd]

http://www.accuratereloading.com/416w.jpg

[only1asterisk]

On nonstandard ammo,

I have found that sending a supply ahead is the best way to get around losing it in transit.

David

[Glamdring]

nextjoe: If someone told me "I could go to Africa to hunt if I took a 45-70" I would go also :D

IMVHO a double has similar problems to a lever gun for DG. Though I would pick most doubles over a lever. I would rather have a single (falling block) or a bolt. Doubles are weak (action not cartridge) and fragil.

I always find it a bit strange that most people seem to think a double is better for DG than a single (other than as a personal choice).

I guess most shooters today don't know about the guys that killed elephants for a living in the ivory hunting days with single shot rifles (like Selous IIRC with a .461 Gibbs Metford using a 540-570 grain lead bullet at 1250 fps...but a 375 bolt isn't enough?).

[Wildalaska]

You might want to reread my post. I never said it was inadequate. I know all about Vince Lupo and the other guys who use their 45-70s for dangerous game. It's been beaten to death, several times over, on another forum I frequent

No actually your words were "question the wisdom"....

My response stands...

WildiknowmanyguideswhousethelevergunsAlaska

[nextjoe]

IMVHO a double has similar problems to a lever gun for DG. Though I would pick most doubles over a lever. I would rather have a single (falling block) or a bolt. Doubles are weak (action not cartridge) and fragil.

A double has the same weaknesses, yes, but if it's built to use a low-pressure cartridge it should be very reliable. Where you hear about problems is with things like .458 Win Mag doubles, since the Win Mag is belted instead of rimmed and operates at high pressure. Mismatch between the action and the pressure it's being asked to take.

So, if the caliber is appropriate to the action type, things should work well. That's my whole point here. If you take a lever gun built for low-pressure cartridges and start jacking up the pressure, there *might* be problems. And for dangerous game, that's something I won't risk.

Glamdring, know anyone who might fund an expedition to test this?:D

Best,
Joe

[H&Hhunter]

Glamdrig,
Your reasoning is sound as far as functionality is concerned. But having been in some tight situations I've dicovered that there really is a reason the double gun has become king in close quarters type dangerous game hunting.

If you've ever been in the tall grass with an angry elephant at close quaters you'll soon find out why the double gun is king. Same goes for buffalo, leapord, lion, hippo you name it.

The whole point of a double gun is this it is capable of firing an adequate calibre for knocking down the largest of dangerous game. And it is capable of delivering a second shot faster than any other rifle configuration on earth when using an adequate caliber.

While it is true that in the days of lore many pros/ivory hunters used single falling blocks because that was what was available. They were replaced by turn bolts and doubles as they became available because they are a better tool for the job.

I've been in two situations were I was wishing for the fast handling characteristics of a double. Once on a gut shot buff in the tall grass and the other time with a particularly pissed off cow elephant that I stumbled into also in in the grass at about 25 feet.

My current heavy rifle is a custom built stainless mod 70 in 458 lott. A very adequate rifle and caliber set up. But my double .470 NE arrives next week;)
I'm not saying not to use what you want, I'm just saying that in a tight situation I like to have more than one round. (And I want more power than even a hot 45-70) The 5000 ftlb magic number has alot of validity....And larger bore diameter/ heavier bullets do make a difference on knock down on thick skinned dangerous game.

Top ten reasons to own a double.

1. Much of the stuff you've heard about doubles and there "weak" action have been solved with modern meturolgy. They really are quite stout now days. (Note never use high pressure rounds in a double .458 win + double=BIG TROUBLE! EAA stopping rifle included!)

2. Think of it as two single shot rifles tied together (at least in one with two triggers/hammers and a non automatic safety) so if one rifle dies you still have the other barrel.

3. Automatic ejectors makes it actually faster to shoot four rounds than a turn bolt. (I know... but it's been proven time and again.)

4. Nothing on earth handles faster than a double rifle that is fit correctly.

5. Nitro express rounds while not any more powerfull than current shorter rounds are so long and fat they just look more powerfull.
:D

6. Most likely you'll be the only kid at the range to have one.

7. You really didn't need all that money in the bank anyway just sitting there collecting all that pesky interest.

8. At $10.00 a round your not just shooting your helping increase the GNP.

9. Chicks dig it.

10. Cool factor is so high that sun glasses are required at all times when carrying it.

[H&Hhunter]

The term "tall grass" gets seriously over used. Here is an example of true african tall grass. This was taken on the Kilombero river sept 2002.

Oh and by the way how long did it take you to pick out the mature bull elephant standing at less than 75 yards!

This is double gun country.

I was standing on top of a 20' fly deck from a river boat when I took these. This grass is between 8 and 15' tall.

[H&Hhunter]

Sorry double post.

[H&Hhunter]

Maybe this will clear it up for you.
In the first picture the gray blot in the middle of the picture just sticking out of the grass is the top of the elephants head. Next time you go to the zoo look at an african elephant and try to figure out how tall and dense the grass has to be to completley hide an elephant.


This is the same elephant that has just moved into shorter thinner grass.

[Preacherman]

Thanks for posting those pictures, H&H... brings back fond memories. Aah, nostalgia! :D

[s&w 24]

as far as penitration on the 45-70 the tests I've heard about the 45-70 out performs some big bore "african cartriges"


But I still say they need to make 405 winchester solids!

[cooch]

I'd be interested to know how many of these penetration tests used identical projectiles. If not, the test is of projectle performance, and is not a valid test of the respective cartridges.

The other valid question, is how often people get charged/bitten/gored/stomped by the wet newsprint that seems to be the usual media for such tests.???

The problem with large, irritated and rapidly impending wildlife is that they don't represent homogenous targets. They have soft bits and hard bits,,,, and some of the soft bits that you really need to make holes in are behind hard bits.

No doubt this one will go on.....

Cooch

[Keith]

Two different subjects, almost - hunting and guiding.

Guides like to carry short, handy, heavy-caliber rifles because they may have to root some wounded critter out of the brush after their client has botched a shot. So, a Guide Gun or big double makes a lot of sense.

For pure hunting, you're better off with a .375 (or something in that class) that gives you additional range.

Of course, either class of rifle will do either job if called upon. You can always get closer with your double or guide gun, or pull the scope off your .375 and follow up a critter in the brush.

Keith

[H&Hhunter]

S&W

The 45-70 is an adequate round for buffalo. As is a 375H&H as are many other rounds. It all boils down to personal preferance. I have no problem what so ever hunting buff with a .375 or a .45-70. Under good conditions.

It's the bad days that make me more happy with a cartridge that fires a 500gr bullet at 2100 fps or greater. It's just my comfort zone in the thick stuff.

A 300gr 375H&H penetrates better than just about anything out there. But a .458 lott with 500gr solid does too and there is a noticable difference in knock down between the two.

When my first glance at a target coming at me in the thick stuff is measured in feet not yards I want something with major authority. A true heavy has a chance of turning a buff to a shoulder shot. I don't think a .375 or a 45-70 will. (and the heavy may not).

Keith,
You have a valid point. And one in which I won't argue. To my way of thinking what happens when the guide ain't there to save your butt?

I always have two rifles in the truck/ boat. A scoped .375 and a proper heavy. Depending on the situation depends on what comes with me on a stalk.

I do believe that a thick skinned dangerous game gun should be iron sighted fast handling and of capable power.. Or be equiped with an extremly low mounted low power variable scope if you shoot that better.

I like ghost rings, Short barrels and positive feed.

[Keith]

Well, the subject is African lions and Kodiak bears. For them, either a .375 or a .45/70 (with a 530 grain Garret Hamerhead!) will serve!
The only difference is the package the rounds are delivered from and the terrain in which you're confronting them. Most of Kodiak will rival any of the tall grass of Africa - it's only July and the grass is already head high here!

I wouldn't want to be forced to stalk up too close to shoot, so to me the .375 makes a better hunting rifle. For a guide, who may be forced to confront a Kodiak bear up close in the brush (or for those of us who simply need a heavy to pack around for defense), the short, handy Guide Gun makes an awful of sense. A double rifle would be an equally good choice, but I don't think you'll find anybody willing to drag around a rifle of that cost in this climate.

Keith

[H&Hhunter]

A 375H&H shooting a quality expanding 300gr bullet. That is the bear and lion rig. I recomend the Barnes X.
My original reply

Keith,
And that is exactly what I recomended for bear and lion. I should add that in that circumstance I also recomend a scoped rifle. Especially for bear and it is almost a given for lion especially while hunting off a bait due to often poor lighting conditions.

I wonder why no one has ever tried a stainless synthetic double like a ruger red stainless only in .45-70 or .375flanged. What an awsome Alaskan double that would be. I wonder if that could be done? Use a stainless red label action and barrell to a rifle round...Hmmmmm...Sorry I've got double rifles on the brain.......

Searcy built a .470 stainless & wood rifle for a while and said he sold several of them to Alaskans but at $16,000 a copy they never went to far.

[Glamdring]

H&Hhunter: While it is true that in the days of lore many pros/ivory hunters used single falling blocks because that was what was available. They were replaced by turn bolts and doubles as they became available because they are a better tool for the job.

My point was they used "worse tools" to kill more elephant than I will ever see, let alone shoot. [I don't ever plan to hunt elephant or buff it holds no interest for me.]

Some ivory hunters picked calibers like 303, 7x57, & 6.5's over big bore doubles for much of their shooting even when they had both with them.

I suspect economics, logistics, and ammo capacity (not for firepower, but to counter all the bad primers & other ammo related problems) were couple of the reasons.

I have also noted that most guides/ph's would prefer that their client shoot well with a little caliber vs poorly with a big one.
***
Talk about drifting threads though ;)

[H&Hhunter]

Glamdrig,
I have also noted that most guides/ph's would prefer that their client shoot well with a little caliber vs poorly with a big one.

No doubt a true statement.

They are even happier when the client can shoot a big caliber well;)

As far Ivory hunters using small calibers it's a matter of personal prefrence. Use what you shoot well and you'll stay out of trouble. Professional cullers of today almost all use .458win mag or .375H&H. As in the days of old people will use what is most readily available.

One thing you will never see however is P.H. using a single shot rifle as a back up weapon that would be pure insanity.

Of course as Keith so eloquently mentioned hunting and guiding are two different subjects.

I have a good friend in who owns a ranch in Namibia and has killed 7 or 8 cattle killing lions with his one and only rifle a Ruger #1 in 7X57 mauser.

If you've got the hots for a single shot go for it. All I'm saying is there are better choices for dangerous game in my humble opinon.:) :)

[s&w 24]

please look below

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp

one mans expierence with the 45-70 on flesh and bone also check the pictures of game taken

[HBK]

Would an M-14 work?

[Art Eatman]

HBK, the .308 will kill the bear or the lion. The primary question is whether they'll die before chomping on you. Killing and stopping are two entirely different issues.

Depending on who you read, it is said that an African lion can charge across 100 yards in three to five seconds. Having twice seen mountain lions moving at Maximum Effort, I believe! I believe! And so I'll leave the scenario to your own imagination...

And keep in mind the discussion is in the context of the hunting ethic, not with full-auto equipment. :)

Art

[Glamdring]

My personal opinion is that any good deer cartridge will work on lion, they are not a huge or thick skinned critter. IIRC many ordinary people have used cartridges like 7x57, 30-06, 303, etc to take many African lions with no problem.

But were would the fun in that be? :D That said I would really like at least a medium bore if it was up close and personal.

I recall Teddy Roosevelt saying somewhere that African Lion seemed easier than grizzlies he was used to hunting in lower 48. But I don't remember if he used his '06 or 405 (maybe both?) on lion.

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me that there's a bunch of difference between a calm and peaceful critter that doesn't know you're there, and some critter that's pumping a big load of adrenalin.

It's this latter case which redefines the word "insurance".

:), Art

[cooch]

Wasn't it Sir George Grey who made the terminal mistake of trying to stop a Kenya lion with a .280 Ross Rifle?

Possibly the major issue was bullet construction, as I've seen sketches of bullet fragments recovered from the lion.

All the successful users of smallbores seem to have used solids of the greatest weight-for-calibre that were available. Penetration alone was not the issue, but reliable penetration from any angle and without deviation.

I'll have to dig out my copy of Pease' "The Book of the Lion"... but I seem to recall him advocating the use of 12, 10 and possibly even 8-bore rifles as close-range lion-stoppers. Perhaps watching Grey get mauled (he was present) influenced him.

It would me........ :what:

[AmericanFreeBird]

Just my .02 but I've done some "normal" bear hunting and I've not seen anyone remind you to bring your backup in either .357mag or .44mag.

A nice six shooter on the hip for close encounters. If you choose the .357mag, solid steel HP bullets will do a grizzley nicely with a head shot or two. The .44mag will do nicely with just about anything, I'd reccommend a JHP Hornady XTP load.

AFB

[HBK]

Would a 10mm with the proper ammo work as a backup gun?

[Wildalaska]

Would a 10mm with the proper ammo work as a backup gun?

I know a young man who just killed a small griz with a 10mm after it charged him. Hes gonna buy another 10 mm for his girlfriend.

Heres a lion shot I just got in:

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Gallery/DREWLION.jpg

WildgrowlAlaska

[Glamdring]

Wild is that barrel even 16" long? Looks very short.

[Wildalaska]

Hi its 16 1/2...

I like em even shorter...Ill have a pic of an 11 1/2 later this week..

WildherekittyAlaska

[Glamdring]

"Here kitty?"

Just use catnip :D

[HBK]

Did you kill that lion WA? That is pretty impressive.

[Wildalaska]

No no my experience with cats is the siamese I used to have, and the Lynx I chased around a few years ago with a S&W 22..

The guy in the pic is a fellow from Texas I beleive....he also has a 50 Alaskan and I am waiting to see what he got with it..

WildmeowAlaska

[Dogstail]

I purchased my Rem700, Safari Grade, 375H&H Mag in Alaska - there, the 375H&H was the cartridge of choice. The '06 class didn't have the power to knock a "Brownie" off its feet if charging - if "up close", you get only one shot. I found the 1-4X Leupold to be ideal; you don't want a hi-mag scope when a bear stands up at 30 - 40 ft in the alders. I shot a trophy size, 60 inch moose, one shot, knocked it off its feet. Fantastic ! The 375 with the 270grBT Speer is ideal flat-shooting, long range elk-- I load it down to 75% if I'm going to shoot elk <200yds. I weigh 150 lb & recoil of the 375 doesen't bother me at all. True, it's a BIG "push" but not the painful jab of the 300s.
Another, of many advantages, is that you can find 375 ammo, off-the-shelf practically anywhere in the world. For decades, the 375H&H has been aclaimed as the best all-around-cartridge in existance. Somewhere, in high road, yesterday I put in some citations & authoritative articles that have been published about the cartridge over the last 20 or 30 yrs. If you can find it, it will likely convince you that the 375HH is the "only" thing to buy.
kunosoura@aol.com

[JOE MACK]

While I really like my .411/.416 Rem Mag., It's a Ruger #1 single shot. I'd rather shoot both at a distance with something like that. For my main DG weapon, I'd like a Winchester M70 controlled feed in stainless with a good synthetic stock. The barrel would be 22 inches and caliber would be .458 Lott. If forced to, one could shoot .458Winchester in it. The bullets would be Barnes-X or Trophy Bonded. Optics would be a 1-4x scope in QD mounts with a ghost ring as back up or close range. :scrutiny:

[Sunray]

"...The hunt of a lifetime?..." A single shot .45-70.

[TK73]

However, it remains a legitimate question. :D

Allright, I am no dangerous game hunter (yet). The African lion is strong and moves very fast. The Kodiac bear is of huge size, is unbelieveable strong and moves fast. Being attacked by either is a terrifying thought. According to the reports I've read, the African lion is not as difficult to put down than an angry Kodiac bear.

I think, a .375 H&H seems to be the absolute minimum caliber I'd have in my hands in case of a charge. The .416 Rigby looks even better and even one of the big .458 caliber rifles or the .470 N.E. 3 1/4" doesn't look to be too much gun, provided the user can shoot them accurately.

Col. Jeff Cooper recommends the .30-06 w/heavy 200 grs. bullets for lion. Legality in many African countries aside, this combo seems to me to be a little bit on the light side, but I have no experience.

[SunBear]

If you decide to go with the slapdown 45-70 loads in a Marlin, you might as well go with the Cowboy model with the 10 ROUND MAGAZINE!!!! :evil: :neener:

[Jeremae]

How about the Steyr scout in 376 steyr? Looks like performance is very close to the 375 h&h but short action....

[ranburr]

I would either go with a 9.3x62 or a .35 Whelen. I am not a magnum guy if I can avoid it.

ranburr

[JohnKSa]

I personally want a gun with a larger margin of reliability than a loaded-to-the limits lever gun. If you're pushing up against the strength limits of the action, as some of the hot 45-70 loads areNot arguing for the 45-70, just pointing out that the 45-70 can be plenty effective without pushing the gun to its pressure limits.

There was a magazine article awhile back written by a man who hunted Cape Buffalo with the 45-70 and the Cor-Bon load. The Cor-Bon load isn't maxed out and yet it fully penetrated a large buff, breaking both shoulders and also did the same on the smaller cow concealed behind it. The bullet stopped under the offside skin on the cow.

Not hard to understand when one realizes that a huge number of Bison were killed off with the black powder 45-70 which only stepped out of the muzzle around 1300fps...

[Art Eatman]

A few years back, Rich Lucibella did an Arican hunt with a lever action .45-70. He got a couple of buffalo.

You can do a search in the Hunt forum over at TFL for stories and pictures.

Art

[BlackCat]

Col. Jeff Cooper recommends the .30-06 w/heavy 200 grs. bullets for lion. Legality in many African countries aside, this combo seems to me to be a little bit on the light side, but I have no experience.

"Ernest Hemingway, on his 1936 safari, used his .30-06 Springfield to take lions, buffalos and rhinos, because he abhorred the trigger pull on his double .470."

And ballistics have certainly improved since then!

[Yooper]

I would choose the largest rifle I can hit consistently with. I see no reason to not do this.

[Zerstoerer]

Top ten reasons to own a double.

1. Much of the stuff you've heard about doubles and there "weak" action have been solved with modern meturolgy. They really are quite stout now days. (Note never use high pressure rounds in a double .458 win + double=BIG TROUBLE! EAA stopping rifle included!)

2. Think of it as two single shot rifles tied together (at least in one with two triggers/hammers and a non automatic safety) so if one rifle dies you still have the other barrel.

3. Automatic ejectors makes it actually faster to shoot four rounds than a turn bolt. (I know... but it's been proven time and again.)

4. Nothing on earth handles faster than a double rifle that is fit correctly.

5. Nitro express rounds while not any more powerfull than current shorter rounds are so long and fat they just look more powerfull.
:D

6. Most likely you'll be the only kid at the range to have one.

7. You really didn't need all that money in the bank anyway just sitting there collecting all that pesky interest.

8. At $10.00 a round your not just shooting your helping increase the GNP.

9. Chicks dig it.

10. Cool factor is so high that sun glasses are required at all times when carrying it.


H&H Hunter,
like your reasoning.
Now, which double rifle make/model do you recommend?
What $$$ are we looking at and caliber?

[H&Hhunter]

H&H Hunter,
like your reasoning.
Now, which double rifle make/model do you recommend?
What $$$ are we looking at and caliber?

Zerstoerer,

My opinion only as there are lots of good doubles out there. For the money if you want a good solid working double the Searcy PH model in .470NE is very tough to beat.

I owned a Searcy field grade in .470NE and traded it in to the factory on the newer, nicer PH model last October. I'll be getting my new PH model this year sometime.

I like the .470NE caliber for several reasons. It is the most common NE round on the planet and that makes ammo and component availability very easy to come by. The .470 has just enough power to handle any hunting situation on earth yet isn't obnoxious to shoot in a well fitting rifle.

I've killed buffalo, elephant, wildebeest and impala all in the same week with the same .470. I've also killed feral hog and coyotes with it well past 100 yards. The Searcy is one of the most accurate rifles I own. The accuracy on this rifle must be seen to be believed.

.470 caliber doubles tend to have a higher resale value than other NE rifles due to the popularity of the caliber.

I don't know for sure what the prices are this year I heard they are going up. The PH model was $9500 last year.

Some other nice doubles for around the same money are Kreighoff and Merkel.

I've shot them all and prefer the Searcy.

www.searcyent.com

Greg

AHH I just had a look. The price HAS gone up!

[Matt G]

(What do you expect? The thread's two and a half years old!)

[H&Hhunter]

Matt,

Are you trying to give us a clue?:confused: :D :D

[Zerstoerer]

I like the .470NE caliber for several reasons.

I've killed buffalo, elephant, wildebeest and impala all in the same week with the same .470. I've also killed feral hog and coyotes with it well past 100 yards. The Searcy is one of the most accurate rifles I own. The accuracy on this rifle must be seen to be believed.

.470 caliber doubles tend to have a higher resale value than other NE rifles due to the popularity of the caliber.


AHH I just had a look. The price HAS gone up!

Greg,

thanks for the info. I have never shot anything that big. How does recoil compare to let's say a lightweight 12 GA shotgun?

Thanks

[Cosmoline]

CZ 550 magnum in 375, Barnes x bullets. Spare plastic stock for the Kodiak trip, nice wood one for Africa. Scope optional.

When going after dangerous game, a close up shot might be needed.

Ditto. That .357 CZ is one rifle I really regret not hanging onto.

[Redhawk1]

My CZ550 416 Rigby. :D

[killzone]

I wouldn't be a lot of help as far as lions goes. But I can tell you this with high conficance.... 338 Lapua will take any Bear any size and any where, under any circumstance.

It is very potent and can easly become your best friend at the range and on the hunt....

Good luck on your search

Killzone

MN (-60 Last week):neener:

[12-34hom]

I've often looked at Brownings BAR in 300 or 338 Mags for close up work on dangerous type game where caliber restrictions would not apply.

Follow up shots would be fast, shorten barrel lenght down to 20 inches with a Boss system installed, install a premium red dot type sight.

12-34hom.