[Glamdring]

What was base wt and OAL?

How was it normally used? I would think with the 20 round mags they had to use it differrently than Belt fed M60.

What was typical ammo load? Does the barrel switch quickly?

If one has the money and meets legal requirments are there any availible for civilians to buy, and if so how many $$$$$ realistically to buy?

[Chipperman]

I've seen them go for about $20,000. They can be bought by civilians with paperwork and lots O' cash

I believe the weight was about 26 lbs. They were using typical ball 30-06, sometimes AP.

According to one docu I saw, a popular way to use them was to have two BAr men. One would fire in 3 round bursts until empty., Then he would reload as the second followed in 3 round bursts. They could have a constant sustained volume of fire that way until they moved on or ran out of ammo.

[AZ Jeff]

I am sure someone out there can look these specs up in "Small Arms of the World" or similar references, but I can answer ONE of the questions:

The barrel is screwed into the receiver like most conventional infantry rifles. This feature, in fact, is the biggest shortcoming of the BAR, because the operator cannot change barrels when the weapon overheats due to excessive firing.

This lack of quick change barrels made the British BREN gun a much better light machine gun than the BAR.

After the war, in the 1950's, the FN , I believe, came out with a product-improved BAR that offered quick change barrels, but the US military never adopted them, as the M14 and M60 were in development at that time.

[Johnny Guest]

Basic load: Several variations of the BAR belt - - - Some from WW-I had a metal cup on R side to provide for “walking fire,” from the hip. This style had two double ammo Pockets on each side. On L. side, there was a place for two 1911 pistol mags. This style allowed for nine, 20-round mags: eight on belt and one in gun = 180 rounds.

A second type was the assistant gunner belt, with five double mag pouches plus a couple of pouches for 1903 rifle clips.

The more modern, late WW-II and Korean War pattern simply had six double pouches, for 12 mags, = 240 rounds. It is my understanding that Ball, AP M2 ammo became general issue sometime during the war. It was only slight extra effort and expense to manufacture, it did not decrease effectiveness against personnel, and made for much better penetration of structures and vehicles.

The standard US BAR did NOT have a quick change barrel. I understand that a later version produced at FN did, but these were for sale to other countries. This is just something I vaguely recall, and have no documentation for the latter.

I thought the gun ran about 20 or 22 pounds. Chiperman may well have better recall than I, though, especially if he is quoting figures for the gun, complete with the heavy bipod, buttstock support, carry handle, sling, and magazine. No featherweight, in any case.

As a sidelight - - - the excellent movie, “The Sand Pebbles” depicts Steve McQueen using a BAR in a missionary rescue mission. I understand that McQueen, a Class 3 shooter himself, insisted on writing in the use of the BAR, so he could use his own rifle in the filming.

Best,
Johnny

LATE ADD: Looks like Jeff was posting while I was still writing. Tends to confirm what I recalled about the later version, tho. :p

JPG

[Glamdring]

Did they have bolt hold open?

Since barrel wasn't changeable, what was practical substained rate of fire?

[Sleuth]

There are two basic variations of the BAR. The WWI M1918 (no bipod or carry handle, blued), and the WWII 1918A2 (Bipod issued then thrown away, carry handle late in the war, parkerized finish). Wieght w/o bipod about 19 pounds, with bipod about 22 pounds.

The ammo load has to include the A-Gunner (Assistant gunner). In WWI, the A gunner carried his belt with 10 mags + 20 rounds for his 1903 or 1917 rifle, plus left and right bandoliers each with six more mags. The WWII A gunner carried just the waist belt.

I own & shoot a 1918A2 full auto, and have a complete set of WWI & II belts. Registered, post war BAR's run around $12,000 (gun only). Original guns start at $15k and go up - fast.

For more info, go to WWIIBARMAN.com, and buy the book "Rock & a Hard Place", which is Jim Ballou's excellent history of the BAR.

There is no sound like a BAR on slow rate (350 RPM).

[Hkmp5sd]

http://www.gunsamerica.com/upload/976353948-1.jpg

Browning BAR 1918A2 by ERMCO only $14,995.00 (http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976353948.htm)

[Dr.Rob]

I don't own one but I've shot them. Whole lotta fun.

Here in Colorado the only ones I've seen for sale run from $20-25K for those made by Colt and Winchester..

Another note the BAR is an open bolt gun, that helps keep the heat down. You'll notice the forend is FAT, that's because the barrel heats up so fast it can burn your hand after a few bursts.

The one I handled (no bi-pod, fold -up buttplate) weighed 22 pounds or so fully loaded with black tipped 172 AP ammo. Recoil is negligible thanks to the weight but muzzle climb is a bear. After 2 rounds you'll find your muzzle pointing towards the horizon so you really have to lean forward into the gun, like an exaggerated shotgun stance. I was managing hits on propane tanks at 200 yards with the notch and post sights of the BAR.

From a bipod Full auto is very controllable. there is NO such thing as semi auto on a BAR, but with practice you can let off single shots.

The BAR was meant as a light infantry support weapon used in the fire and manuver doctrine, while the BAR men laid down supressive fire, the other troops moved to attack (at least that's what one source I read claims).

On D-Day US Army rangers carried 12 magazines, and it was common for riflemen to carry 2 extras apiece for the BAR gunner.

The BAR also had a colorful history as a gangster gun favored by Bonnie and Clyde, Clyde prefered to lop the barrel off at the gas tube and the stock just aft of the buffer tube, so the rig could be held under an overcoat.

The BAR was still in service through the Vietnam conflict on both sides of the war, as a lend lease weapon captured by the Viet Cong, and as a crew served weapon given to Ruff_Puffs and used by some special forces personnel.

Famous BAR men of film: Steve McQueen, Forest Tucker, Lee Marvin, Harry Dean Stanton

Famous real BAR men: Commando Kelly, Ira Hayes

Can you tell the BAR is my favorite WW2 weapon?

Anyone else have more to add?

[Glamdring]

So the price is similar to low-midrange double rifle. Think they will stay similar in price to a double?

***
How many laws would have to be changed to allow legal manufacture & sale of replicas?

[Sarge13]

And now the rest of the story: :D
In actual fact the WW 2 BAR - M1918A2 With bipod, is 19.4#. OAL is 47.8" with a 24" bbl. Full auto only with 2 rates of fire, slow = 300-450 rpm and fast = 500-650rpm. ANYONE can single shot the slow cyclic rate, no problem on fast with some practice.
WW 2 & Korea the Army issued the standard 6 pocket = 12 mag belt to both the gunner and the assistant - who also carried a Garand and all that went with it. Assistants belt was emptied first - wonder why:>)).
The WW1 BARs - M1918, w/o bipod weighed 16# and were semi & full auto.
I own 2 Korean War mfg BARs. The only difference is the flash hider and the carrying handle that came out late in WW 2 and wasn't used very much was now standard on the BAR.
Fired from the standing position is not bad with the bipod mounted, without it the rifle climbs pretty good. That is when you want to use the issue sling - which was about a foot longer than the Garand sling - to use it standing remove it from the rear sling swivel and adjust it so that you can stand on it when firing. Slings were made in leather and later web.
It was comical to see the RF/PFs walking along with the butt of the BAR dragging, or nearly so, on the ground. They liked them even tho they were heavy - so did the VC!
Transferrable original BARs will run from $17K to 20K+, depending on how lucky you are
Sarge

[Billy Sparks]

There is a company Ohio Ordanace I think that produces a semi auto version of the BAR. I am seriously considering one. The sheriff of the county I live in will never sign for a class 3. Matter of fact I can only think of one surrounding county that the sheriff will sign and then the only people I have seen him sign for are LEO's

[Lone Star]

When I was in high school, we had the M1918A2, two per rifle squad in ROTC. No asst. gunners. We were told that the low rate of fire was 350 rounds, for use against infantry. The high rate was nominally 550 rounds, for use against aircraft. The head drill sgt., a Korean War vet, told us that in battle other men in the squad would hump extra BAR magazines, and the BAR man chose whichever cyclic rate he thought best under the current battle conditions.

Even then, I knew that the Bren was a better squad/section level light machine gun.

I think FN was selling switch-barrel BAR's as early as the 1930 period. Nations using them included Belgium and Poland. Check, "Small Arms of the World" by Smith and Smith. Many libraries have a copy.

Lone Star

[Mad Man]

There is a company Ohio Ordanace I think that produces a semi auto version of the BAR.


Ohio Ordnance Works: http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/

Their 1918A3 Self-Loading Rifle (BAR): http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/slr.htm


And while on the subject of BARs, I have two questsions:

1. About a year ago, I was in my local gun shop and met a guy who was a BAR gunner in Korea with the Marines. He told me that he had a vest that held 11 BAR magazines. Does anyone know anything about these?

2. Was the BAR ever converted to .308, or is there any way to do it? I'd love to get one of those Ohio Ordnance BARs. But I'm not sure I could afford to shoot it enough in .30-06, whereas .308 is cheap and plentiful.

Thanks.

[Byron Quick]

I believe that the FN Model D with the quick change barrel is chambered in .308.

About a year ago, I saw a dealer sample online for sale for $2000...must have been a typo.


Look at the kits for sale with the receivers cut in three places. They sell for about $700 and that's with the extra expense of cutting them up. Think what the price would be if not for these stupid laws.

[Sunray]

20 pounds empty. I know a guy who owns a bAR tha twas made fo rthe US civilian market in the 1920's. The metal, including the mags and bipod, is blued in that old time S&W blue that almost glows. The wood is made of the very finest, and I mean finest, oil finished, burly, walnut you ever saw. Picture the very best custom made bolt action with the very best walnut stock and you'll be close. Friggin' thing is a work of art. It's so pretty I almost cried the first time I saw it.
Oh, they were used in the same capacity as the M60. A squad automatic. Of course the BREN was better. You could snipe with it.

[Sunray]

20 pounds empty. I know a guy who owns a bAR tha twas made fo rthe US civilian market in the 1920's. The metal, including the mags and bipod, is blued in that old time S&W blue that almost glows. The wood is made of the very finest, and I mean finest, oil finished, burly, walnut you ever saw. Picture the very best custom made bolt action with the very best walnut stock and you'll be close. Friggin' thing is a work of art. It's so pretty I almost cried the first time I saw it.
Oh, they were used in the same capacity as the M60. A squad automatic. Of course the BREN was better. You could snipe with it.

[Sarge13]

$2000 for a "dealer Sample" is in the ball park. BUT, remember you must have a $530 ($500 for the Class 3 AND an FFL for $30 a year) Class 3 lisc to buy one. These are post samples and Must be sold when/if you drop your lisc. Pre samples will cost almost as much as a transferrable gun, But you can keep it if/when you drop your class 3 lisc. Then again, should you decide to sell it later it can only be sold to a class 3 and he has to pay the $200 xfer tax just like it was a transferrable.
Both my BARs are pre samples and cost me about $175 each 15 - 20 years ago.
Sarge

[Combat-wombat]

You can get a the Browning BAR Serial #1 for only 600k! Look here.
http://www.thegunsearch.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=360

[Jim K]

The civilian BAR was made by Colt, not S&W, and was called the Monitor. I don't think any of them had a bipod, at least not as standard equipment. The comments about the quality of finish and workmanship are right on the money, though. They have the same glow as the finest sporting rifles of that day.

Jim