SBR Vector V53 .223 or V51 .308?


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Glock_10mm
August 14, 2007, 10:19 PM
I'm decided in a large cal HK MP style gun and dont know which to go with.

The .223 (40) holds 2x as many rounds as 308 (20), and with the small barrels, is there really an advantage in the .408 (disytance/accuracy wise?)?

Overall is either uncontrollable?

I like the .308 better (I currently reload .308) but the .223 version is tempting.

Any thoughts - PS any ther good quality clone I will consider but in MP SBR layout. Thx in advance.

I'm looking for the shorter SBR layouts not like a cetme or PTR/91 etc.

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MassMark
August 15, 2007, 12:12 AM
If you're going for a true SBR, (not a pistol), I would go with the V-51. I owned and original Flemming HK 51S and it was something else. I think the ammo cost factor for the 5.56, plus the hig cap would be tempting, however there's nothing in my book like the bark of a short barrels 7.62x51. The only time I found my 51S to be uncontrolable was with a registered sear pack on deck. It was fun, but man did it jump... ;) I think since you already load for 7.62, you could mix up some pretty interesting rounds on your 51....Go big or go home....hehehehe...Just had to say it... ;)

PS - the 51 holds 20, cause it takes fewer to knock em down.... :cool:

Glock_10mm
August 16, 2007, 08:48 AM
Thanks for the info - I was headed that direction but everyone who knows nothing about these guns keeps pushing me towards the 223 citing overpower/less ammo, ert. V51 it is -> wish I had the money for the original HK though - maybe next year for that one!

If I ever get a registeret sear, I'll probably put it in a 9mm version.

MassMark
August 16, 2007, 11:40 AM
Your welcome! Enjoy your 51!, (I loved mine)...sniffle,sniffle...If you have the dough for a sear pack, (think wildly expensive), you can put a variety of platforms on deck. One of the coolest things I have seen was a 51S length HK21 made by Vollmer, (I think). It had the updated feed system and was 100% reliable. It was as practical as a two-sided nickel, but holy crapoly was it a heck of a fun ride... :cool:

accomplice
August 16, 2007, 11:44 AM
I've owned both and strongly preferred the V53. The V51 just wasn't as fun to shoot and surely is much less of a viable tool for personal/ home defense. Not to mention that prices of .308 surplus ammo have shot up incredibly.

Bartholomew Roberts
August 16, 2007, 12:51 PM
Looking at the ballistics, the 53 will have reduced recoil, reduced ammo cost, and a flatter trajectory. On the other hand 7.62x51 out of an 11" barrel basically gives you a slightly souped up 7.62x39 out of a full length barrel. I also thing you can get some nice ballistics from rounds like the Hornady 110gr TAP, even out of the short barrel.

MassMark
August 16, 2007, 01:26 PM
I forgot to mention the control issue: In full auto, it's quite a handfull. However in SA, it's really quite accurate. I mentioned in another thread about being centar mass accurate, (with tight groups to match) at 300 yards - spreading out a bit at 500, but still in the ballpark. The HK was pleasant to shoot - recoil was more of a push that anything even approaching sharp.

Glock_10mm
August 17, 2007, 08:57 AM
Thanks for all the useful info - I dont have the extra $10k to go F/A anytime soon, so since the Semi is controllable I'll be going to get one (well start the SBR process) this weekend:)

Crunker1337
August 17, 2007, 02:28 PM
I say the 53, as it willb emore controllable on rapid semi fire and also .223 is cheaper.

anymanusa
August 18, 2007, 07:19 AM
I don't really think cost is much of an issue when using cheap ammo. I just bought 500rnd/$110 .223, and 500rnd/$150 for my .308. hardly worth noting in my book, but to some, that may be a deal breaker.

CajunTim
August 18, 2007, 01:41 PM
Go with the 51 and let us know much you enjoy it.

Bohica_arms
August 19, 2007, 12:14 PM
I've got a V-53 SBR w/ HK collapsing stock and LOVE IT - It's Damn accurate out to 100 yards w/ an EO Tech on it. Even with the std HK type sights it shoots about a 4" group at 100 yds.

FWIW

Chris Rosequist
Bohica Arms Corp

Browning
August 19, 2007, 01:30 PM
Well out of a short barrel like that doesn't the .308's velocity get reduced so dramatically that it's going about 2400 FPS which is about what a 7.62X39 round would do? So what's really the point of having it in .308 Win if you don't have a higher velocity than a 7.62X39 round?

It doesn't really gain you much and you're spending WAY more for ammo.

The grain weight would be higher (150 to 168 instead of 122), but that's about it.

The .308 Win would have gotten the nod before ammo prices went up just because of the higher grain weight when surplus .308 ammo was around for the same price as Wolf 7.62X39 ammo (one hundred and twentyfive bucks per 1000 rounds), but now ammo would cost twice as much ($378 to $400 vs. $150 per 1000 rds at the very cheapest).

Bartholomew Roberts
August 19, 2007, 05:44 PM
Well out of a short barrel like that doesn't the .308's velocity get reduced so dramatically that it's going about 2400 FPS which is about what a 7.62X39 round would do?

Well first, that is a 150gr doing 2400fps vs. a 123gr doing 2300fps. Second, that is out of an 11" barrel vs. a 16" barrel. So you are getting better than full-power 7.62x39 performance; but out of a package about the size of an MP5. That is what attracted me about the concept.

Now throw in some of the specialty LE loads (like the Hornady 110gr VMAX) and you are talking decent ballistics and a flatter trajectory out of the same compact package. Definitely not a cheap solution by any means; but an interesting one.

MassMark
August 19, 2007, 09:17 PM
110gr Harnady TAP's out of a 51 would be something to behold....

jpwilly
August 19, 2007, 11:20 PM
I have an M44 Nagant 7.62x54R that I cut the barrel off just behind the front sight leaving me with a 16.5" barrel that I then threaded and put a muzzle break on. While it's not semi auto the 20mm cannon like fire ball makes the rifle one of the more fun to shoot out of my collection! You won't regret the getting the 308! You can always go get a 223 black rifle too!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p38/jpwilly/ScoutPaint005.jpg

Browning
August 21, 2007, 01:25 AM
Bartholomew Roberts :Well out of a short barrel like that doesn't the .308's velocity get reduced so dramatically that it's going about 2400 FPS which is about what a 7.62X39 round would do?

Well first, that is a 150gr doing 2400fps vs. a 123gr doing 2300fps. Second, that is out of an 11" barrel vs. a 16" barrel. So you are getting better than full-power 7.62x39 performance; but out of a package about the size of an MP5. That is what attracted me about the concept.

Now throw in some of the specialty LE loads (like the Hornady 110gr VMAX) and you are talking decent ballistics and a flatter trajectory out of the same compact package. Definitely not a cheap solution by any means; but an interesting one.

I guess my point is that you'd only be getting a round that's a hundred FPS faster and 27 grains heavier. There's no doubt that you'd be gaining something out of the deal (extra velocity and a slightly heavier bullet of the same diameter for added ft lbs of energy), but is it enough to justify the added expense of more expensive ammo, the extra money for the thousand dollar plus weapon and the SBR $200 expense?

The only person that can really answer that question is the person that might buy it. To me it wouldn't be worth it, to you it sounds like it's worth the added cost for both the weapon and ammo. Neither answer is really right or wrong, it's just individual choices and outlooks coming into play. To me if you're going to have a .308 then you might want to use what it has to offer, with the .308 that means having a longer barrel. If you have a short barrel then it reduces what it has to offer in the first place, thereby reducing why you'd get it in the first place.

Since we're talking about an SBR the whole reason to get it is for added punch since we're not talking longer range here. The whole reason behind it is for added knockdown and penetration. Will that added 100 FPS and 27 added grains really make that much difference? Will it penetrate that much farther through material? I don't honestly know the answer to that question, but I don't really think that it would do much that the 7.62X39 would do out of an AK.

I've never really been one to worry that much about spending a large sum of money to get only slightly better performance. For instance if I were looking for a general purpose hunting rifle, I may prefer the 30-06 since it provides 2800 FPS and good solid performance on most North American game animals, where you may prefer to spend a little more and go with the .300 Win Mag for it's added velocity and punch even though it costs more for it.

See what I mean?

If something does the job very well then I'm usually pretty satisfied and I'll seek to improve what I have through practice and bullet selection, where you on the other hand are probably always on the look out for better performance even if it's only slightly better in addition to practice and bullet selection. We just have different outlooks that's all.

tallpaul
August 21, 2007, 09:45 AM
I believe there are 30 round HK .308 mags from HK

either will be fun and a can for the SBR would be fun for SD or general use also...

Bartholomew Roberts
August 21, 2007, 09:33 PM
I guess my point is that you'd only be getting a round that's a hundred FPS faster and 27 grains heavier.

Yes; but in a package that is at least 5" shorter (assuming a folder AK). Remember you are comparing full-size AK performance to SBR .308 performance. If I take 5" off an AK barrel, the already rainbow like trajectory of the 7.62x39 is not going to improve. On the other hand, the 7.62x51 will still be effective at 300m. The AR can hit just fine at 300m with the short barrel; but it loses a lot of effectiveness with the loss of velocity and you'll never get it as compact as a folder SBR because of the buffer tube.

The reason we have different outlooks is because you are only considering the ballistic performance. I am considering the ballistic performance for its size.

Hk91 Fan
August 21, 2007, 10:31 PM
I have one of the shorty 93's and it is a wonderful rifle. Lots of fun. The only drawback I see is the 40 rd. mags are a bit large for my taste.

Browning
August 22, 2007, 01:29 PM
Bartholomew Roberts : Yes; but in a package that is at least 5" shorter (assuming a folder AK). Remember you are comparing full-size AK performance to SBR .308 performance. If I take 5" off an AK barrel, the already rainbow like trajectory of the 7.62x39 is not going to improve. On the other hand, the 7.62x51 will still be effective at 300m. The AR can hit just fine at 300m with the short barrel; but it loses a lot of effectiveness with the loss of velocity and you'll never get it as compact as a folder SBR because of the buffer tube.

The reason we have different outlooks is because you are only considering the ballistic performance. I am considering the ballistic performance for its size.

I'm considering its ballistic potential for its size, it's just that an AKM with a folding stock is pretty damn short even if its barrel is a little bit longer that what your SBR's barrel would be (11 inches vs. 16 right?). The main purpose for an SBR is to clear rooms without your barrel leading you through the doorway and its ease of getting in and out of cramped vehicles without it smacking into anything on its way out or into the vehicle isn't it?

I realize what it's for and I understand the fact that you'd be getting a powerful carbine in a really short and handy package, I guess that the AK folding stock is just short enough for me without spending an extra $1000 or so just for the weapon alone, without even going into the added expense of .308/7.62X51 ammo right now. I can't even afford to shoot my .308's right now due to the prices of ammo going up. Perhaps you're better off financially than I am though, I'm just a lowly EMT and $450 for a 1000 rds (.308) vs. $158 for a 1000 rds (7.62X39) makes a big difference to me.

I'd probaly get an .308 SBR myself if you could just get them off the shelf by filling out a regular 4473 the way you would with a regular firearm and if it didn't cost so much. To me it just isn't worth it merely because of the paperwork and legal hassles of getting a NFA weapon and the extra money that it would cost, not because it's a bad idea on the basis of what it's for or because of its use potential. To me it doesn't really do anything that a $450 AK couldn't do in just a slightly larger package, but mostly it's just about the money and the hassle for me.

I just guess that I don't have that much trouble being able to do either of those things with an AK if I needed to. Those Krink AK's do okay even though the barrels just as short (I've fired some of the AK "pistols" using a sling to steady it by pushing forward although I personally don't own one myself), especially for engagement distances that are usually across the street. If I remember right projectiles from a 7.62X39 are going about 2100 FPS from a Krink. Perhaps I'm wrong, but talk of good groups with a carbine that's got an 11 inch barrel at 300 yards seems somewhat optimistic to me. Then again I don't have much experience with short barreled firearms with a stock as that's what I can get without a tax stamp and without too much hassle.

An SBR seems like it would be basically for across the street and across the room distances and you'd have it in .308 for a little more thump and penetration through building materials and vehicles, I just can't actually see it making very good groups at a couple hundred yards.

Bartholomew Roberts
August 22, 2007, 02:14 PM
I just can't actually see it making very good groups at a couple hundred yards.

It will shoot as well as any other rifle assuming the same quality of barrel. The only thing the short barrel does is reduce velocity, which gives you increased drop and windage. Once you've got those worked out, an SBR will work as well or as poorly as any other rifle.

Browning
August 23, 2007, 08:18 AM
Bartholomew Roberts : It will shoot as well as any other rifle assuming the same quality of barrel. The only thing the short barrel does is reduce velocity, which gives you increased drop and windage. Once you've got those worked out, an SBR will work as well or as poorly as any other rifle.

The problem is in getting the arms manufacturers to make a really good quality barrel that short. Alot of times it seems they'll just throw whatever barrel they have on there when it's actually just as important to have a quality barrel on an SBR.

MassMark
August 23, 2007, 10:29 AM
Though I cannot speak to what barrels Vector is using, my 51S was a Heckler & Koch built rilfe. It grouped amazingly well at 300 yards and was all over center mass on a full sized silhouette at 500. For kicks from a bench rest, I tried to hit the same target at 1,000-yards and managed 9 hits out of 40-rounds. If Vector is using original HK barrels, (or an equivalent), it is no match shooter to be sure, but is certainly capable out to extended ranges.

Browning
August 23, 2007, 11:07 AM
Bartholomew Roberts : It will shoot as well as any other rifle assuming the same quality of barrel. The only thing the short barrel does is reduce velocity, which gives you increased drop and windage. Once you've got those worked out, an SBR will work as well or as poorly as any other rifle.

MassMark : Though I cannot speak to what barrels Vector is using, my 51S was a Heckler & Koch built rilfe. It grouped amazingly well at 300 yards and was all over center mass on a full sized silhouette at 500. For kicks from a bench rest, I tried to hit the same target at 1,000-yards and managed 9 hits out of 40-rounds. If Vector is using original HK barrels, (or an equivalent), it is no match shooter to be sure, but is certainly capable out to extended ranges.

I just figured since velocity was reduced because of the short barrel, because it's not exactly a match grade target barrel and since it's a semi-auto with a really heavy bolt that has a reputation for heavy recoil that the bullet would drop like a rock and that you'd be all over the place at 300.

It seems like most shooters would think that a short barrel + a semi-auto carbine with a heavy bolt and stiff recoil (like the H&K .308 platform is known for) would probably = inaccuracy. Then again like I said before I don't have much experience with SBR's under 16 inches, it's just a guess based on .308 Win 16 inch carbines in .308 Win vs. 20 or 22 inch MBR's and the few AK pistols that I've shot before.

I own a M1A and I've owned FAL's in the past, so they're what I'm most familiar with as far as .308's go.

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