I want an AR SBR !!


PDA






TonyStarks
August 15, 2007, 10:34 AM
I am not sure where to start on this one.
I was at the range this weekend and saw a couple of guys shooting an AR-15 SBR. It basically looked like the AR Pistol but it had a stock vs the tube found on the pistols.

Anyone have an AR SBR or know of a good manufacturer? I am very interested in buying one and i dont know where to start...i do have a TRUST setup already.
I like RRA but im not sure if they make SBR's. Post pics if you have 'em.

Thanks,
Tony

If you enjoyed reading about "I want an AR SBR !!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
HorseSoldier
August 15, 2007, 10:48 AM
There can be reliability issues with ARs running less than 12" or so of barrel. Some of the least functional ARs I've ever seen had improperly designed or assembled SBR uppers on them.

I'd recommend going with whatever lower you want, but putting it under a Lewis Machine and Tool or Noveske upper. I've seen a large number of both on top of .mil M4A1 lowers the range, and known people who used both downrange in the sandbox, and they're worth the money.

(Or invest in a Lewis Monolithic Rail Platform, and then get a 10.5" barrel plus whatever other lengths you want. Also allows you to shoot 6.8mm and .204 with a bolt and barrel swap, so far, other calibers could and hopefully will follow.)

CommanderPoopyduX
August 15, 2007, 10:51 AM
Several companies make them, including RRA. You may also check out CMMG. In order to own an SBR, you must get the proper paper work. I believe it is the ATF Form 1. I would double check that, but you easily find the forms online. It will cost $200 just to get the OK for the SBR.

I would say the first place to start is deciding if it is worth $200 to have a shorter barrel (read less accurate/less energy) to play with, keeping in mind resale is tough because you can't just sell it to anyone.

praharin
August 15, 2007, 10:58 AM
less energy, sure. however the accuracy wont be degraded beyond any other ar of similar quality with the same sight radius. mechanically speaking of course. a longer barrel will mean more weight, which in some cases improves shooter accuracy

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 15, 2007, 11:00 AM
however the accuracy wont be degraded beyond any other ar of similar quality with the same sight radius.

Hold on, are you determining factor regarding inherent accuracy is sight radius? That may effect how effective the sighting system is, but not the actual accuracy of said barrel.

TonyStarks
August 15, 2007, 11:25 AM
I'd rather buy an assembled SBR rather than build my own. I beleive the process to purchase it will be the same as buying any Class 3.
I just cant seem to find any companies that list their SBR online..any suggestions?

Lashlarue
August 15, 2007, 11:27 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/C5Sam/bargains.jpgThe paperwork hassle is enough to keep me from buying one, but they definitely exude "cool"

waterhouse
August 15, 2007, 12:04 PM
I just cant seem to find any companies that list their SBR online..any suggestions?

Most places don't list them as SBRs. A lot of places will list them as pistol uppers, or just go to the "Upper" section of websites and there will be some under 16".

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=7

CommanderPoopyduX
August 15, 2007, 12:23 PM
I could have swore I already said CMMG

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=752190&cat=62&noCookiePassThrough=Y&

that is the direct link to their "SBR" Page, and they sell separate uppers as well ( http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=752190&cat=43&noCookiePassThrough=Y& ).....pay attention to my post next time....

TonyStarks
August 15, 2007, 01:01 PM
Yes sir Commander sir!:rolleyes: But i had no idea what CMMG was on your original post...
Thanks for the link BTW! Exactly what i was looking for!

Glockman17366
August 15, 2007, 01:14 PM
"Several companies make them, including RRA."

I think you'll find RRA makes the uppers (7" and 10" barrels), but not sold with the lower as an SBR complete.

EShell
August 15, 2007, 02:59 PM
Plan A:
1) get a regular AR15 lower receiver assembly and use that serial number for the ensuing paperwork.
2) File a federal "Form 1", which states that you intend to build an SBR and wish to pay the required "tax" on it.
3) When your *approved* Form 1 comes back, have your lower engraved as an SBR, etc,
4) Go buy a 11.5" upper assembly from one of the sources above and install it on your new SBR.

FYI #1: Buying/possessing a short barreled upper in conjunction with possession of a standard (non-SBR) lower prior to filing a Form 1 can be construed by our federal govenrment as "intent" to build an unlicensed SBR - a felony offense (and one of the very first "thought crimes" we've been subjected to).

FYI #2: As posted above, many/most of the very short barrels aren't reliable. The 11.5 is considered a good compromise between "handy", "cute" and "reliable".

Plan B:
1) Locate an existing complete SBR, or an SBR registered lower for sale and throw your money down.
2) File a federal Form 4, the transfer paperwork you'll need to pay your "tax".
3) When the *approved* Form 4 comes back, take delivery on and enjoy your SBR.

TonyStarks
August 15, 2007, 03:36 PM
Eshell,
I think i'll go with Plan B and purchase a complete SBR vs trying to build my own. A local dealer has some in stock from RRA and i plan on stopping by there on Saturday to check them out. Again, the ones i saw at the range appeared to be 10-11 in length (barrel). These guys were getting good groups at 100 yrds but those things were loud and not fun to stand next to when they fired.
Thanks again for the info.

MisterPX
August 16, 2007, 01:55 AM
Another reccomendation for do it yourself, ofter much more cost effective.
However, plus side of shelling out for a factory SNR is that the factorys name is the one engraved, not yours. Although, you'll have to factor in another who knows how long for the F3 transfer.

As for the barrel legth/accuracy thing, put a scope on a 11'5, and on a 20. NOt much accuracy difference at all, if any. Sight radius is the big thing.

The paperwork hassle is enough to keep me from buying one, but they definitely exude "cool"
If by hassle, you mean the 15 minutes it takes to fill out teh form and put everything in an envelope, then I guess so.

MatthewVanitas
August 16, 2007, 09:41 AM
I've been vaguely considering a similar project, but more interested in .22LR or 9mm than in .223

Are you dead-set on getting one in .223, or are alternate calibers also appealing?

The 9mm would be fun as heck with a suppressor, so there's that.

Onmilo
August 16, 2007, 10:47 AM
Danged old Illinois!.
Short barrel rifles are even more restricted in this state than machineguns and getting approval for a machinegun is all but impossible!

EShell
August 16, 2007, 11:08 AM
Another reccomendation for do it yourself, ofter much more cost effective.
Agreed . . . and not a lot of difference "who" professionally lays the upper on the lower and skillfully pushes the pivot and takedown pins into place . . . LOL.

However, plus side of shelling out for a factory SNR is that the factorys name is the one engraved, not yours. Although, you'll have to factor in another who knows how long for the F3 transfer.
True, but, since the "SBR" part is only the (stripped) lower, worth less than the tax stamp/transfer costs, the resale value consideration (based on who built it) is sort of a moot point.

The F-3/4 to transfer would be about the same time delay as an F-1 to build, since all of the same steps/hoops apply - correct?

As for the barrel legth/accuracy thing, put a scope on a 11'5, and on a 20. NOt much accuracy difference at all, if any. Sight radius is the big thing.
Agreed, sight radius and barrel quality. Probably see more difference in ammo types than barrel lengths.

Quote:
The paperwork hassle is enough to keep me from buying one, but they definitely exude "cool"
If by hassle, you mean the 15 minutes it takes to fill out teh form and put everything in an envelope, then I guess so.

Photographs, fingerprints, local CLEO background check/signoff, two visits to the seller if you buy one pre-assembled . . . better call that "17 minutes" . . . :)

EShell
August 16, 2007, 11:12 AM
The 9mm would be fun as heck with a suppressor, so there's that.
Cheap to shoot, no recoil, "movie quiet" . . . heck yeah. The only thing missing is terminal effect.

Danged old Illinois!.
Short barrel rifles are even more restricted in this state than machineguns and getting approval for a machinegun is all but impossible!

If the SBR/MG is "legal" in your area, and the only problem is getting someone off their ass and out of their judgemental mode to sign the "CLEO" space, you might consider doing a corporation that invests in such things. This eliminates several steps otherwise imposed on individuals buying C-III devices.

MisterPX
August 16, 2007, 04:23 PM
IIRC, I believe F3's are taking a few weeks, whereas my F1's were getting done within 2.

Cheap to shoot, no recoil, "movie quiet" . . . heck yeah. The only thing missing is terminal effect.

So you're sayinga ll those 147gr loads are not good for terminal effect? Better let LE know that.;)

As far as IL, he could have every CLEO willing to sign, they're illegal per the Daley regime.

EShell
August 16, 2007, 04:41 PM
So you're sayinga ll those 147gr loads are not good for terminal effect? Better let LE know that.
LOL, no sir, I didn't say "not good", I said "missing" in the context of comparing the standard rifle round to the handgun round.

I wouldn't say "not good" in the context of "totally ineffective" any more than you would suggest that a 9x19 is anywhere near the equal of a rifle round like a .223, which is what we would be giving up.

As far as IL, he could have every CLEO willing to sign, they're illegal per the Daley regime.
Not being able to be familiar with the legalities of every state, I prefaced that statement above with "If the SBR/MG is legal in your area . . .". You might slow down long enough to note that the poster I quoted didn't mention absolute terms like "illegal", "banned" or "forbidden", he actually used the term "restricted", and my post was clearly in response to that statement, which I indicated by quoting him.

RobZ71LM7
August 16, 2007, 06:58 PM
If you get an SBR don't go cheap-get a quality upper and assemble it with the right parts. I have two 10.3" AR SBR's both with uppers from CMMG. They're been 100% so far-I can dump several mags down them as fast as I can shoot with no issue. They will also cycle fine with .223 loads to hotter mil-spec ammo or Mk 262 handloads.

Here's my setups:

10.3" CMMG Upper 1/7 twist Chrome-lined 4150
CMMG bolt carrier and bolt OR LMT carrier and bolt
Wolff XP Extractor spring
Black extractor insert
Dfender D-ring or suitable O-ring
H2 buffer (or whatever buffer works well with the ammo and gas port you have)
Std CAR buffer spring

StealthyBlagga
August 16, 2007, 10:00 PM
Build your own on a Form 1. That way, you can buy the components from the best source, rather than being locked into one of the few AR manufacturers who are willing to supply complete SBRs. Most importantly, the Form 1 route is faster (no Class 3 transfers) and does not involve a Class 3 dealer (no extra fees).

Do it now, before some idiot in congress bans new manufacture. Here is mine (7.5" Model 1 upper on an Ameetec lower):

http://www.hunt101.com/img/507268-big.JPG

ZeroCool
August 16, 2007, 10:19 PM
I am VERY tempted to turn my 9mm AR into an SBR. I dont think that a .223 would be nearly as fun as the 9. I personally like the .223's in the RECCE style vs the SBR.

Depending on how my finances turn out, I may very well look into this in the future.

If you havent done so already, go to AR15.com and under the "Pistol and Rimfire Caliber" section, there is a pic thread at the very top that shows a lot of 9mm SBR's. Bring some towels because your keyboard will be full of drool.

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=208426

TonyStarks
September 17, 2007, 05:41 PM
Ok, thanks to all for your help. I recently purchased an RRA Pistol in.223 with a 10 1/2" upper. I bought because the price was too good to turn down, and i have never used an AR Pistol.
However i do not like the buttstock/tube that is installed on it.
Can anyone tell me what my options are for different tubes / stocks? Do i need to look for a special type of tube or will any AR Stock/TUBE work?
Thanks

here is a link to the one i purchased, it is the 10 1/2" A4 in .223
http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR2115X&storeid=1&image=larp22307.gif&CFID=2904630&CFTOKEN=65814151

MisterPX
September 17, 2007, 09:01 PM
You're almost there. Get your F1 done, after that, you can merely unscrew the pistol tube, and install any standard stock.

seektruth
September 17, 2007, 09:43 PM
Anybody tried the CMMG M2SG upper? It has two gas blocks that are set up in a way that they claim increases reliability and reduces wear and tear. I understand why it should work, but does it really make a difference in the real world?

BucksDC
September 18, 2007, 08:40 AM
Good luck. They are fun and addictive. I enjoy my SBR's so much, that my full length rifles don't get shot, nor do my pistols.
I am working on registering 2 more AR lowers. One for a 9mm build and one for a .22cal suppressed build.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c225/BucksDC/totodd.jpg

RonE
September 18, 2007, 08:52 AM
George at shooters depot in Corpus Christi seems to have prefected reliable functioning of 7.5" SBR. www.shootersdepot.com he has several styles available.

cbsbyte
September 18, 2007, 03:32 PM
I heard the best SBRs are from LMT and Colt.

TonyStarks
September 18, 2007, 05:46 PM
Thanks, I am speaking to RRA in order to determine if the lower on this pistol is marked "pistol only" anywhere because i can see that it is. According to BATF if it is marked "pistol only" then i cant make it an SBR on a form 1.
Anyone deal with this already?

BucksDC, that AR-SBR on the left is sweet! I notice a fire breathing pig on that muzzle device, what is that? Nice work BTW!

wdlsguy
September 18, 2007, 05:53 PM
According to BATF if it is marked "pistol only" then i cant make it an SBR on a form 1.
Do you have a link for this?

MisterPX
September 19, 2007, 02:02 AM
YEah, I'd like to this confirmed. So far ATF has approved many F1's on pistol frames/receivers.

TonyStarks
September 19, 2007, 09:38 AM
I did'nt read this on their site, i was told this when i called in to find out about obtaining the Form.

I'll look for a link on their website.

If you enjoyed reading about "I want an AR SBR !!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!