What's a good C&R rifle in .308 for 600YRD shooting?


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silverlance
August 15, 2007, 11:25 AM
I'd like to get into somewhat long distance shooting mainly because all my friends are and I'm feeling rather left out. I have quite a few C&R bolt rifles but no .308s that are accurate enough for this work as they are milsurps. I am dead set on .308 because that's also what my buddies shoot and we'd like to share reloading supplies.

So, I'm looking for:

- A commercial bolt action rifle in .308 that is 50 or more years old (made before 1957). I have NO idea what this might be other than winchester model 70s, but those are far above my budget. I THINK the Rem 700 is also more than 50 years old. Of course, I'd have to find specific c&r dates.

This bolt action rifle should preferrably have scope mounts installed or be easily adaptable.

In other words, I'm in the market for an old deer rifle in excellent condition. What are some models that I can search for? Once I know the name and model I can keep trolling auction sites and forums for it, but as of right now I have no idea what I'm looking for.

And why C&R? Well, I've only got about $300 left in spending money. C&R will tend to be a bit cheaper as the rifle will be used and Id also be able to save of FFL. Besides, I like my guns used.

So, please, give me some names and models!

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ArmedBear
August 15, 2007, 12:41 PM
BATF's C&R list is on line.

It appears to me that current production rifles are only included on the list if they're true antiques, from certain serial number groups with rare configurations, commemorative editions, etc. Those are true collector's items, not just old rifles, and probably won't be cheap.

Also, the .308 was introduced in September 1952. There won't be a lot of rifles over 50 years old chambered in .308, one way or another, and in excellent condition, they may be collectible. I just paid $400 for a Marlin .22LR lever gun from 1973, because it's a rare variant (regular ones go for $300+ from that era, but much more if antique). That's a .22! What you ask for is a really tall order.

I'd ask some of the older guys at your clubs if they'll sell you a used deer rifle that's ugly but shoots straight.

tinygnat219
August 15, 2007, 12:57 PM
There's really only one rifle that fits your Milsurp criteria, Enfield 2A

Aim Surplus still has them for 169.00, so it also falls within your budget.


http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Enf-2A__Enfield_2A_.308_NATO_7.62x51_Rifles.html

ArmedBear
August 15, 2007, 12:59 PM
Will the 2A shoot modern .308 civilian loads, or just lower-pressure 7.62 NATO?

I thought it was the latter.

Jim Watson
August 15, 2007, 01:00 PM
I don't think it is feasible. Either start a Christmas Club account and save up for a real .308 target rifle or get a Swede or Swiss and a set of $25 Lee dies.

TimboKhan
August 15, 2007, 01:09 PM
Either a Swiss K31 or a Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 Swede would be suitable for your long range shooting, as mentioned above. Why so stuck on the .308? It's a great long range cartridge, but if you want to stick with C&R guns, your just limiting your choices.

Honestly, you can probably find a used Remington or Winchester or Savage or whatever else in .308 used for around 2-300 dollars, so if you really have to have .308, thats what I would do.

ball3006
August 15, 2007, 02:12 PM
the only way you would know the difference is by looking at the ammo box.......chris3

ArmedBear
August 15, 2007, 02:17 PM
the only way you would know the difference is by looking at the ammo box.......

Uh...

7.62 NATO is 50,000 PSI, proofed to 67,000. .308 Winchester can be up to 62,000 PSI, is proofed to 83,000+.

Military chamber is .013" longer.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/rimless2.JPG

http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/7_62vs308.htm

Sunray
August 15, 2007, 02:57 PM
"...accurate enough for this work as they are milsurps..." Whoever told you that is confused. Look around for a K98 Mauser that has been converted. The Israelis use them, as did several South American countries. Mind you, the sights and trigger may need changing.
"...Rem 700 is also more than 50 years old..." Is the C&R not mostly limited to milsurps?

ArmedBear
August 15, 2007, 03:00 PM
Is the C&R not mostly limited to milsurps?

Lots of civilian guns, but generally not current-production common-caliber hunting rifles, even if they're older, unless they're rare variants of some sort.

C&R List:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

dstorm1911
August 15, 2007, 06:12 PM
As mentioned your not going to find anything within your extremally narrowed search criteria, as Mentione the C&R will only cover rare varients not normally available in otherwords HIGH $$$ much more than paying a $20 FFL fee or skip the FFL fee and go cruise the local used dealers ya can even take a look at Wal mart, For .308 your really outa the C&R arena unless ya find a nice chilian converted mod 95 but a nice one is still going to set ya back $300 or better another option is to get a tight milsurp Mauser and if your into doing your own rebarrel ya can get Parker hale target barrels in .308 from Samco for around $40 a real simply rebarrel if ya go with scope only as no indexing or mounting of sights ya can cut the extractor notch with a dremel then screw it in and lock it down they are usually short chambered so give a local smith $30 to set your headspace via chamber reamer and your set.... otherwise hit the local shops for a Savage 110 etc...

Gator
August 15, 2007, 06:20 PM
A C&R is anything over 50 years old, plus what is specifically listed.
You might find an Israeli Mauser for $300, or an FR8, an Ishapore Enfield would be easy to get for under $300, but none of those will be very accurate at 600 yards. Generally, acceptable accuracy for a milsurp is 2-4" at 100 yards.

The Swiss rifles can be very accurate milsurps, but they are not .308s.

ArmedBear
August 15, 2007, 07:16 PM
A C&R is anything over 50 years old, plus what is specifically listed.


True.

However, since the .308 was the first of its family (.243, 7mm-08, etc.), it was the first cartridge in what is now the common American short action centerfire rifle. It came out in late 1952, made by Winchester, which was then (as more recently with WSM's) using its guns to sell its cartridges.

So, the earliest guns you'll find will be Winchesters. He said no Winchesters, since pre-64's are out of range. The 700 didn't exist 50 years ago. Other guns in the 50+ years old time frame will have collector value as "first year made" guns, if in great shape. Anything made after 1957 is not a C&R unless listed, and those are rare variants.

So the chances of finding a non-Winchester, non-collectible civilian .308 in excellent condition made between 1953 and 1957? Zip. Unfortunately.

dracphelan
August 15, 2007, 08:57 PM
I know you specified 308. However, a sporterized 1903 Springfield rifle in 30-06 could meet all of your other requirements.

Outlaws
August 15, 2007, 09:25 PM
A C&R is anything over 50 years old, plus what is specifically listed.
The 700 didn't exist 50 years ago.

The 700 didn't, but the 721, 722, and 725 did. Check Remingtons website for production years. The 722 is the short action, available in 308 starting in 1956 (so that would limit the amount available via C&R), but the 721 is the long action and available in 30-06 starting in 1948. These rifle actions are the foundation for the 700. The actions are every bit as strong, and the rifles are known for being extremely accurate for a hunting rifle.

http://www.remington.com/library/history/firearm_models/centerfire/model_721.asp
http://www.remington.com/library/history/firearm_models/centerfire/model_722.asp

ROMAK IV
August 15, 2007, 10:28 PM
The real difference between 308 and 7.62 x 51 is the increased allowable length on the 7.62 x 51. Get yourself a commercial no-go guage, and if your bolt closes, only the 7.62 x 51 is safe, unless the chamber also closes on a military field guage. The pressures are measured by different methods and are roughly the same. Now I would avoid a Hornady 308 light magnum. Can't comment on the Enfields, but the Isreali Mausers that I have seen are about $250 and not in that good of a shape. You could also get a decent Savage/Stevens bolt gun new for not much more than $300.

Float Pilot
August 15, 2007, 11:55 PM
I have an Ishapore Enfield in 7.62mm that shoots pretty darn good for a $115 rifle.

The Aussie are now importing an Aussie built 7.62mm Enfield with better sights...
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-AIA/index.shtm

My old WWII era M-1 Garand with the Navy 7.62mm chamber conversion shoots even better...Actually lots better...

My old Steyr Mauser in 7.62 would be lucky to hit anything at 600 meters...

I always wanted a Moroccan contract Mauser in 7.62mm, but they are spendy and the 17 inch barrel does not do much for the sight radius...
there was one for sale a while back but the stock and sling attach points were not correct...

I looked around for an old Remington 722 in 308,,, no luck ,, just 300 Savage.. And they cost a pretty penny.

The Annoyed Man
August 16, 2007, 12:01 AM
I saw a Savage "package" gun chambered in .30-06 in a wood stock with a scope at a local megasporting goods store here in the DFW area, with a fully floated barrel and the Accutrigger system for $519.00. I also saw another one like it at their major competitor outside of Fort Worth that was in .308, but had a cheap synthetic stock, for $459.00. It also had the fully floated barrel and the AccuTrigger. I realize that's more than your $300 limit, but it includes the scope.

Hope that helps.

Jeff F
August 16, 2007, 12:01 AM
Don't overlook an enfield in .303 british, they will get it done at long range. A few of my friends have 2a enfields in .308 that work pretty well at long range but only with hand loads developed for each rifle.

silverlance
August 16, 2007, 12:24 AM
thanks for all the replies, and taking my (now that i'm more awake) noobish question seriously.

I own k98s, k31s, m39s, no4mk2, and m98k bolt rifles. those are just the accurate ones. the ones that are pretty lousy on accuracy i wont mention.

Here's what I've found out so far.

1. the 1952 .308 round has VERY few commercial rifles made for it that will fit into both c&r my budget. the round is simply too new. that said, here are some possibilities that nevertheless fit the original bill:

a. israeli converted k98 - ive seen them, and doubt they can hit 18" plates at 600 yards. about $300
b. ishapore 2a - issues with pressure safety. and i doubt the accuracy of these even more.
c. spanish civil guardia k98 in .308 - how about these? haven't tried one yet.


2. "However, a sporterized 1903 Springfield rifle in 30-06 could meet all of your other requirements." WHAT A BRILLIANT IDEA! it fires the .308 round, so I can use the really dirt cheap .308 bullets that are always in abundance, and reloading the cases is pretty easy. only one problem though. springfield 1903 rifles that are in good enough condition to hit 600 yards is probably hard to find - and expensive when you do.

see, guys, i plan to use a lee loader to reload. i dont have the space requirements for press reloading. i can easily reload 3006 or 308.

so... what good rifles that are 50 years or older are there that are chambered in 30-06 - and can also be counted on to hit 18" 600 yard steel plates? last i checked, springfield 1903s are pretty pricey these days.

cracked butt
August 16, 2007, 12:39 AM
Check out the Stevens model 200. Its nothing other than a savage 110 that lacks any form of spit and polish and theaccutrigger. They can be had for right about 3 bills.

for a surplus rilfe, I'd go with the K-31 or Swede mauser- cartridges fired by either of these have almost identical ballistics to a .308 win.

As far as .308s go, the only ones that are C&R that I can think of are the Spanish FR-8, the Ishapore 2A, and the spanish 1916 mauser but I've never shot any of those so I can't comment.

Outlaws
August 16, 2007, 01:41 AM
delete

Dr. Peter Venkman
August 16, 2007, 10:09 AM
In .308 you are really limiting yourself. You can get an Ishapore Enfield (I'm somewhat iffy on those, never handled/fired one myself) or an Israeli K98 converted to 7.62.

For long distance shooting of the C&R Variety, you cannot beat anything chambered for 6.5 Swede or 7.5 Swiss.

dstorm1911
August 16, 2007, 10:21 AM
the 7.5 Swiss uses a .308 blullet so ya can share most of the reloading supplies with your buddies same primers/ powder and bullets just gotta run your own brass and dies, the 7.5x55 swiss is nearly identical to the .308 ballistically

cracked butt
August 16, 2007, 12:21 PM
uses a .308 blullet so ya can share most of the reloading supplies with your buddies same primers/ powder and bullets just gotta run your own brass and dies, the 7.5x55 swiss is nearly identical to the .308 ballistically

For that matter, I use almost the exact same load in my .308s and 7.5 swiss loads.

silverlance
August 16, 2007, 12:35 PM
hm.

now it's a big toss-up for me. should i invest in reloading gear (there's no lee loader for 7.5) and use my k31s (one is already scoped, bought it that way), or should I find a .30-06 (which i have no rifles for, but i do have the reloading equipment)?

this will take some thinking.
can they both use 110gr lightweight bullets for plinking? i have 2000 .30 carbine .308 110grs that i never got around to loading.

dstorm1911
August 16, 2007, 01:57 PM
Graf and sons $22 for the dies if thats the only caliber your gonna load for get a whole starter set from lees for under $50, your budget was $300 so $169 for the rifle the balance in a basic loader setup and some reloadable ammo like Privi Partisan etc... your next batch of ammo will be dirt cheap reloaded AND tailored to your rifles chamber

http://www.grafs.com/metallic/product/148864

ArmedBear
August 16, 2007, 02:01 PM
The 722 is the short action, available in 308 starting in 1956 (so that would limit the amount available via C&R)

That's my point.

Any C&R 722's are "first year made" guns, and in good condition, have collector value.

islandphish
August 16, 2007, 02:31 PM
Original 1903's are expensive, custom/sporters can be had at good prices.

I stole mine at 50$.

SlamFire1
August 16, 2007, 02:37 PM
Original 1903's are expensive, custom/sporters can be had at good prices.

I stole mine at 50$.

What a deal!. I think 03 actions are going for $200.00 nowdays.

dmftoy1
August 16, 2007, 02:52 PM
If your only requirements are a 30 (ish) cal rifle with approximately .308 ballistics then I'd pick up a nice Enfield No4 Mk 1 and some brass. The bullets are slightly bigger (.312 vs .308) the ballistics are pretty close and you can get them and the brass pretty cheap. The only knock I can see is that the bullets will be a bit more expensive because you won't be able to buy pulldowns.

dracphelan
August 16, 2007, 09:13 PM
2. "However, a sporterized 1903 Springfield rifle in 30-06 could meet all of your other requirements." WHAT A BRILLIANT IDEA! it fires the .308 round, so I can use the really dirt cheap .308 bullets that are always in abundance, and reloading the cases is pretty easy. only one problem though. springfield 1903 rifles that are in good enough condition to hit 600 yards is probably hard to find - and expensive when you do.

see, guys, i plan to use a lee loader to reload. i dont have the space requirements for press reloading. i can easily reload 3006 or 308.

1. The auction sites and just about every gunshow I go to have sporterized Springfields for less than $300. Example:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=77994112

2. Instead of getting the loader, get a Lee hand press. I use one as part of a portable reloading kit. They run $30 and are more flexible.

Outlaws
August 16, 2007, 10:22 PM
That's my point.

Any C&R 722's are "first year made" guns, and in good condition, have collector value.
Ya, for the 308s. But for since the OP is open to 30-06, that opens up his options a lot.
Here is a 721 made in 1951. $300
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=78219279

U.S.SFC_RET
August 17, 2007, 06:00 AM
Gator Quoted: A C&R is anything over 50 years old, plus what is specifically listed
Just because it is 50 years old doesn't mean it makes the cut. The list makes the cut.

tinygnat219
August 17, 2007, 07:51 AM
I have a Remington 721 in 30.06 that's my hunting rifle. Great rifle, very accurate and it's still pretty.
I picked mine up with scope for $290.00

silverlance
August 17, 2007, 12:53 PM
can your 721 do minute of 2'x1' at 600 yards? if it can, i think i need a 721.

I have a scoped k31 that MIGHT be able to do that. that barska just doesn't have enough adjustment, though.

i mean, i'm not trying to shoot clover groups at 600 yards. all i want to do is smack steel. but unfortunately all my bolt guns, no matter how accurate, can't do that as they all have non-adjustable sights. if i shot with the same rifle and the same ammo every day for a year, i probably woudl be able to do it by kentucky windage. but id rather use a scope and a gun that is known to be accurate.

i'm looking at 1903s right now.

Davo
August 17, 2007, 01:58 PM
If you are serious about long range shooting, and it must be with a milsurp your going to need a swiss k31 or a sweedish mauser, neither is chambered for .308.
Conversly you can get a new .308 that willl shoot well for under 300 bux.
If your friends already reload, all you need are 7.5 swiss dies, everything else can be used with both .308 and 7.5 swiss.
Ive scoped one of my k31's and its a great gun shooting excellent issue ammo.

KaiserBen
August 17, 2007, 07:18 PM
Gator Quoted:
Quote:
A C&R is anything over 50 years old, plus what is specifically listed
Just because it is 50 years old doesn't mean it makes the cut. The list makes the cut.

Wrong, a firearm is C&R eligible if it's on the list *or* 50 years old.

Citation: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/relics/

trs18
August 18, 2007, 01:48 AM
In the bolt-action military rifle matches around here, I see most folks with 6.5 Swede or 7.5 Swiss, and a few 30-06's and 7x57's. I have a Chilean M1912/61 in 308 (marked 7.62 NATO) that is one of my absolute favorite bolt-action military rifles to shoot.

U.S.SFC_RET
August 19, 2007, 06:57 AM
KaiserBen: I stand to be corrected on that one. I always thought that it wasn't automatic once it makes the 50 year mark.

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