[ArmedBear]

I got a couple of older 650s, one in 12 and one in 20, thrown in when I bought an old 20 Gauge O/U.

After dinking with both, fixing broken parts, adjusting everything, etc., I can get perfect shells from them.

OR I can get shells that look mushed down, as in they have big bulges, creases and wrinkles in the plastic.

I've tried my own known once-fired STS hulls, to make sure it wasn't a problem with the bag of hulls I'd been using, but the problem persists. Some come out perfect, some come out mushed. Powder and shot drops are also not as consistent as I'd like, but that's secondary right now, especially since I suspect that the problems are related -- lever travel is impeded when hulls get mushed.

I'm ready to sell the things to someone else and get another Sizemaster in 20 (I've already gone back to the Sizemaster in 12). The 650 does turn out shells faster and more comfortably, which I like, but bad shells aren't worth making.

But first, I thought I'd see if anyone has had this problem, and solved it.

Anyone have any thoughts, advice, etc.?

Thanks in advance.

Barry

[ilmonster]

I would suggest calling the MEC tech. line. Those folks are tremendously knowledgeable and helpful with problems concerning their reloaders. I have a 9000 and once had an issue, a five min. phone call fixed me right up.

[EShell]

The advice to call MEC is probably your best bet.

Been a long time since I loaded on my 650, but, IIRC, if your wad pressure isn't enough, some wads do not seat fully, and the resultingly higher fill level prevents decent crimping, thus leading to mashed shells.

[ArmedBear]

Ah...

Thanks for that clue. I'll have to check. Maybe the thing isn't getting seated well enough.

I've tried higher and lower wad pressures, but maybe there are other things getting in the way sometimes.

[EShell]

It's a good chance that's your problem, assuming all your cases are the same maker and style . . .

Because your machine does deliver good crimps on some/most shells, the crimp station is probably correctly adjusted. You may want to check and see that the crimper parts are moving freely and not binding, but it does sound more like an internal height problem.

When all of your hulls are clean and new, wad pressure required will be relatively light and seating depth will be consistent, even with light pressure. Once you've fired them a few times, the internal surfaces get scorched and scuffed, and not only is the required wad seating pressure increasing, but it will also vary with the hull's varying internal condition.

By running minimum wad pressure, you'll typically get good results in the newer cases, but older cases will resist seating due to increased friction, and then the problem occurs. I've always had most consistent results when wad pressure firmly bottoms out the gas cup on the powder charge and then goes on to momentarity fully compress the wad's shock absorption section.

Another more remote possibility is that the wad seating ram is large enough in comparison to the wad's internal diameter that there is a little interference and the ram is pulling the wad back out with it when you withdraw. The wad can come back up with the ram, but will often stop when the petals bind on the internal side of the crimp. This too leaves the wad at higher or lower positions, thus affecting final crimp, but would be more apparant on newer cases having smoother internal surfaces.

[ArmedBear]

I bought and shot a bunch of STS's, then reloaded the hulls, to remove the worn-out-hull variable.

I'm wondering about the ram pulling the wad back out. Maybe the plastic thingie with petals is misadjusted. I fooled with it, too, but maybe didn't get it right. That should isolate the plunger from the petals of the wad, right?

[Hawk]

Just out of curiosity, are you using Remington figure 8 wads to go with those fine STS hulls?

[sargenv]

There is a great article about crimping shells on MEC presses on Ballistic Product's Web site. The url is: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/mecadjust/mecadj.htm

This might solve your crimping issues. Also talking to the gents at Ballistic products could give you the info you need.

[EShell]

I bought and shot a bunch of STS's, then reloaded the hulls, to remove the worn-out-hull variable.

Yes, seems like they'd be consistent in that respect, though nearly new hulls might contribute to a possible wad pulling problem.

I'm wondering about the ram pulling the wad back out. Maybe the plastic thingie with petals is misadjusted. I fooled with it, too, but maybe didn't get it right. That should isolate the plunger from the petals of the wad, right?

The plastic piece with the petals (fingers) is the wad guide, who's sole purpose is to allow the wad to pass the area restricted by the old crimp - look at it like it's only a fancy-looking funnel . . .

If the wad is coming back up until the wad guide stops it, that IS a problem. If the wad guide IS stopping the wad from coming back out, this would mean the wad has come back up even with the case mouth - obviously not the correct position.

You can tell pretty quickly if there is sufficient clearance between the ram and wad by simply sliding a wad up over the ram while the machine is in the up position. If the wad has a lot of resistance, or if the petals are forced open, this may indicate interference.

One other possibility that occurs to me is that the shell plate MUST index directly below the ram, and if it has a little crud in it that prevents positive indexing, the side of the ram may be slightly misaligned and in hard contact with one side of the internal surface of the wad.

There is a great article about crimping shells on MEC presses on Ballistic Product's Web site. The url is: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi...ust/mecadj.htm

This might solve your crimping issues. Also talking to the gents at Ballistic products could give you the info you need.

That is a good resource, but the web page really doesn't tell one much more than RTFM. Once he's weeded out the few possibilities we've discussed, it may indeed be worth calling B.P., but, IMO, only after calling MEC w/no joy.

IMHO, his crimp station is already "close", if not GTG, since he seems to be getting decent crimps on some, with failures sprinkled in. While it doesn't hurt to revisit the basics, were his crimp station maladjusted, *none* of his crimps would be functional.

[243winxb]

The crimping station has 3 adjustments, at least my 600jr does. I have run into the same problem when using wwaa hulls. This was because they have changed at least 3 time over maybe 40 years. Always to a thiner wall. 1. The cam adjustment i would look at first. This puts a taper on the shell. 2.Then the punch is used to finish the crimp. 3.Or you may need to raise the whole die.