[HBK]

I was just wondering, flame me if you want as well, what is the big deal about 1911s? Every gun class I have ever taken there were people shooting 1911s. They were the ones whose guns were constantly malfunctioning or outright breaking. So why the big love affair with the 1911? Educate me.

[makdaddy03]

Nothing. Traded mine for a Ruger P97. Much better handgun. Ducking and running. Slams the door behind me.:uhoh: :evil:

[cordex]

*shrug*
Individual taste, I guess.

For me, it has a good grip angle, points well, is slim enough to carry comfortably with good leather, is in a caliber I like, has easy to operate controls, has a very nice trigger pull, and just plain works for me.

[HBK]

Does yours ever break a lot? Do they all break a lot or was I just in a weird few classes?

[Mad Man]

For most of the 20th century, the 1911 was the most easily available full size semi-automatic pistol in the United States states.

It appears that two things happened:

1. In the 1950s, when Jeff Cooper started teaching and preaching about combat handgunning, a line of thinking developed that went something like "Since the .45 ACP is the best semi-automatic pistol round available, it must follow that the 1911 is the best semi-automatic handgun available."

2. For whatever reason, an entire industry emerged dedicated to customizing and improving the 1911 pistol. This, in turn, led to marketing campaigns designed to create more demand for 1911 pistols.


Now, back when the only bullets available were either solid lead or full-metal-jacket, the .45 was obviously superior to the 9mm. However, the advent of modern self-defense ammunition has made difference in calibers less important.

Also, back when the choice of combat handguns was the 1911, Luger, Walther P-38, and Browning Hi-Power, the 1911 was definitely in the top-half of that list. However, there are many more quality choices available than there were 50 years ago.

While I wouldn't call it a myth, or a big-lie, the idea of the 1911 as the greatest handgun ever is a meme that should have died a long time ago, but instead continues to perpetuate itself with a religious-like following. Having been repeated often enough over the decades, many people accept it.

[Skunkabilly]

Between the Wilson Tactical Elite, Dawson Tactical Advantage, Kimber Tactical Law Enforcement, Kimber Custom Tactical and Springfield Tactical Operator in a Wilson Combat Tactical Assault and Carbon Creations stocks, what's not to like? :p

OK seriously though, it's simple and has history. Everything since then has been different but not necessarily any better. That said, my Elite II is still my favorite, but I still want a 1911.

[HBK]

Thanks, you guys, that explains a lot.

[cordex]

HBK,
Never broken a part on my 1911 yet. I shoot it reasonably often too.

However, you are bound to see some 1911 pattern weapons that are absolute junk. Why?
Consider:
1. The patents have expired on the 1911.
2. It is a popular weapon, and therefore is desirable to produce and sell.
3. With a variety of companies producing 1911 style pistols, it's hard to say "A 1911 is likely to be very reliable" without prepending it with "If built by a competant manufacturer ..."

If there were a dozen small-time companies producing Glock style pistols with a variety of different processes, materials, and even changing fundamental principals of the Glock design, would there likely be variations in Glock-style weapons' quality?

[Sisco]

Just a matter of personal preference.
Some people like Harleys, some like Hondas.

[seeker_two]

Try one...

Then you'll understand...:evil:

[MCNETT]

I own three different 1911 style pistols. BUT, I own A LOT of pistols. That being said, I think that MAD MAN said it best. It has been around for almost 100 years, and has a lot of "die-hard followers". I like shooting mine, but when I put on my CCW everyday, it is my Glock 29 or glock 20, NEVER my 1911's. Personal choice, personal preference.
-Mike

[10-Ring]

I no longer own one. At one time I had 3 :( The 1911 is just a gun that everyone at some point in their shooting experience will gravitate towards. Many like them, just as many don't. I've gone through a few in search of the right one for me! ;)

[Snake Eyes]

Try one...Then you'll understand

No greater truth was ever spoken.

When I first started getting into guns, 4 short years ago, I swore I'd never own one.

1911's are old, obsolete, cantankerous, expensive, only like ball ammo, the rounds are slow, only cary 6-8 rounds, etc, etc, ad nauseum....

Then I tried one.

I found out that 1911's are fast out of the leather, fast to first shot, fastest trigger reset, less recoil than a .40, have the unrepentent joy of never pulling a DA trigger, infinitley modifiable and personalizeable (call Webster! I made up a new word!) and really good for killing people.

You will see 1911's at Bullseye competition, at IPSC, at IDPA, at USPSA, at the PGA, the IRS, the ATF, at the frontlines of the battle and in the breifing room with the generals. You will see 1911's that cost $300 and some that cost $3000 and the $3000 gun doesn't necessarily shoot better.

1911's are like Craps. You can go to Vegas and play slots or Carribean stud all you want, but if you're a gambler you play craps.

You may not be a gunslinger just because you own a 1911 (God knows, I'm not), but I've never met a gunslinger that didn't have at least one.

PT

[Andrew Wyatt]

the 1911 has a better trigger than any other autopistol in current use by a PD or military, is in a caliber that seems to work, and it isn't three feet wide, like glocks, rugers, and hks.

[Tamara]

It's flat, has simply the best trigger design, has a low bore axis, has simply the best trigger design, is easy to customize to suit your individual tastes, has simply the best trigger design, is amazingly easy to CCW for a full-size all-steel service pistol, and it has simply the best trigger design.

None of mine are any more prone to jamming or breakage than my other guns. (Which is to say that the four I currently have have been 100% trouble-free thus far...)

[sonny]

Whats the big deal with 57 chevys or 67 GTOs?:D

[Dobe]

Every gun class I have ever taken there were people shooting 1911s. They were the ones whose guns were constantly malfunctioning or outright breaking

I'm not sure what classes nor how many you have taken, but any real instructor would dissagree about your relaibility statement. I own 4 1911's, and they don't choke.

The hallmark of a great firearm is seen in the amount of shots sent its way. No one would even bother criticizing, if the 1911 had not made such an impact in the shooting world.

[CWL]

I don't see too many M1911s break down, certainly not in any greater % than other guns, and I've seen brand new Sigs break, My P7M8 has broken, and I see more Glocks jam up at local IDPA/IPSC meets -mostly due to self-gunsmithing & crappy ammo.

The M1911 pistols grow on people, I started on hi-cap 9mms, went to .40s before settling down on M1911/.45ACPs as the preferred platform. Nowadays, I can't fire my Glocks accurately because I'm too used to the M1911 trigger.

I don't know what classes you attend, but I must point out that most of the better-known classes & trainers typically use M1911 pistols on the range.

It'll either grow on you, or it never will. At least you get a choice.

[Skunkabilly]

Most of hte 1911s I see crap out are gamers messing with their loads and Para mags going breakey breakey (I think :confused: )....

Mine failed a few times because of a not-so-tensioned extractor. Dorks.

[New_comer]

It's big & loud, akin to America's love for quarter-pounders, Harleys, Mustangs and rock & roll.


It's an endemic, American trademark. ;)

[Boats]

American Icon or eurotrash? Hmmmm. Tough choice.

NAH!!! If I couldn't have any 1911s, I'd be a wheelgunner. Wait--that is exactly what I'll be doing in August. 1911s and wheelguns? I'd better fall in line and start worshipping Tamara.:D

Just nobody tell my wife.:evil:

[sm]

Tamara nailed it.

[harrydog]

At the classes I've attended, the 1911 shooters simply smoked everyone else in terms of speed and accuracy and none of them ever had a malfunction.
At one time, not all that long ago, I also had many misconceptions regarding the 1911. Couldn't understand why anyone would want one. I've since come to realize how foolish I was.;)

[dsk]

My 1911s don't jam. But I do know that many others' do.

Maybe the fact that I usually don't screw with them unless I have to is a factor?

[Sean Smith]

There are a bajillion clones made of the 1911 design. Well, they are clones in the same sense that we can clone sheep, i.e. they look the part but usually don't last like the real thing and have all kinds of inexplicable problems. A 1911 that isn't made by a chump company is, in my experience, as good as anything out there at the same price point in terms of function.

I've owned pretty much everything BUT 1911s for most of my time shooting. Once I got a good 1911, I realized that I personally had no use for 99% of the guns out there. Why should I put up with a blocky grip and crap trigger if I don't have to?

[Soap]

EASY to shoot/conceal/manipulate because:

-Large but thin
-Heavy
-Great trigger
-Powerful
-Reliable if made/tuned properly
-Grip angle
-Placement of controls
-Single action
-And about a million other advantages

[doctorhumbert]

I too had doubts about 1911s in my foolish youth. I mean, thing is almost century old, it's gotta be collectable obsolete toy for old WWII veterans.

Then I bought Kimber Custom, I liked it.

Then I bought Colt Combat commander, colt 1991, ANOTHER Colt combat commander, Colt Gold cup, Kimber Target, then Les Baer TRS, and so on...

So why the sudden addiction on design that is older than my grandpa?

NO other auto handgun. I say that again. NO other auto handgun nicer trigger as 1911. Only other handgun I know that comes close are Sig 210 and HKp7m8.

Many people say it is liked because of history, yes true, but it does NOT make it an obsolete! Far from it!

It is Rugged, Ergonomic, Fast Shoting, Simple, No plastic BS gun.

Designs old as 1911, such as Luger P-08 (1908) are indeed obsolete as a modern combat handgun, but 1911 is still wonderfully dependable, when even compared to so called modern handguns.

Those who say 1911 are hype hasn't fired one.

[bigjim]

Because they can look like this:

www.burnscustom.com (http://www.burnscustom.com/)

[Majic]

Many have told you some of the merits of the 1911. I agree with Seeker_Two, go out and try one for yourself. If something has been manufactored for the better part of a century, with very little modification from the original design, and is still popular today then there must be something very good about it

[firestar]

Try one...Then you'll understand

That is not true. I have had several and I still don't understand what all the fuss is about.

I had two high dollar 1911s that shot really well but if I spent $1500 on ANY gun, I would expect it to shoot as well.

I don't think there is anything really special about the 1911 but there are a lot of custom makers and aftermarket parts that tune a 1911 into anything you want. For the same amount of cash, you could probably turn any gun into a good shooter but the know how is there in spades to tune 1911s.

There aren't as many Beretta custom guys out there but I have heard of custom Berettas being bulls eye gun after some work.

I think it all boils down to ergonomics, the 1911 fits most people's hands better than Glocks, H&K, Berettas, etc. It is also sort of a club to own a custom or high dollar 1911. Kind of like Harley Davidson's, they have appeal just because of the status.

Why do people pay $40 for a T-shirt that says Polo rather then $5 for a plain one? They want people to see that they have enough money to buy what they want. It is way of separating yourself from those around you or to fit into a certain crowd. Some people, probably most of the poeple that are on this site, buy them because they want the added preformance and accuracy that a good 1911 will give you. Most of the people here are probably serious shooters and they know the difference between junk and quality guns. There are a lot of yahoos that just want to tell people that they have a Wilson or a STI etc. Those people probably couldn't tell the difference between a Wilson and a Springfield if the name wasn't printed on the side!:neener:

[Archie]

Good grip shape.
Controllable power.
Excellent trigger.
Excellent reliablility. (At least in the well made ones. Even Cadillac makes a lemon from time to time.)
Controls convenient and easy to operate.

And an intangible. It was designed by, and made for men who understood what combat was really about. It is an engineering statement of what it means to "Stand and Deliver".

I have all sorts of handguns, including a couple plastics. They are all okay in their own right. But if I know I'm going into trouble, a 1911 in 45ACP is at the top of the "A" list.

If anyone cares, I've been carrying a gun for almost 40 years now. I could be wrong, but I'm not in doubt.

[antediluvianist]

I believe it was Cooper who said something like : "You use .45 pistols to be able to use the .45 ACP cartridge; you use the 9mm. cartridge to be able to use the 9mm. pistols. "

If we accept that point of view , then the best of both worlds is a pistol originally made for 9mm. , which fires .45 ACP . I hear good things about the Glock in .45 ACP , although I haven't fired one.

Using Cooper's dictum, the worst of both worlds would therefore be a pistol originally made for .45 ACP, which fires 9mm. For a short time I owned a 1911 in 9mm.. Others certainly will have had different experiences from mine, but my 9mm. 1911 didn't perform as smoothly or as reliably as the .45 1911s I have owned or used, and it didn't have as good a "feel" (too much gun mass for the cartridge, and an abrupt "jump" at detonation rather than the .45's mellower "roll".)

Cooper might be right.

[Feanaro]

Why do people buy Kraft cheese over Southern Home? Because they think Kraft tastes better. I don't really like Glocks. I don't dislike them either though. I don't like Berettas at all. I don't like revolvers much. But I love the feel of the USP, Baby Eagle and the 1911. I cannot tell you why, they just fit me better than other weapons. The 1911 has an intangible attraction. It's a myth, a symbol and, for me, a wonderful weapon.

[Gunner45]

"It's flat, has simply the best trigger design, has a low bore axis, has simply the best trigger design, is easy to customize to suit your individual tastes, has simply the best trigger design, is amazingly easy to CCW for a full-size all-steel service pistol, and it has simply the best trigger design."

Tamara

Very well said Tamara! :)


Gunner45

[Byron Quick]

I've owned a few 1911's. My first was in .38 Super Auto. Once I realized I needed to buy quality magazines for it...I had no problems.

It takes about a 1000 rounds or so to break in a new 1911. Consider how many folks out there say they have trouble with a 1911 when they've fired maybe 60 rounds through it.

I've got 1911's that I have to fire in excess of 500 rounds without cleaning before I begin to experience malfunctions.

What Tamara said.

What Daniel Flory said.

Besides, SA autos rule. The SA/DA platforms are a perfect solution in desperate search of a problem.

[Ian11]

I've owned Colt 1911's and I'll own another again. It was either stick with cocked and locked 1911's or Glock/SIG type guns (no safeties). I chose the latter to simplify my training which I think is far more important than the novelty of having too many types of defense handguns. (Besides I'd be able to keep two different brands. :neener: ) Which is also another huge reason I haven't bought a squeeze cocking H&K P7/M8. Although I'd really love to get my hands on one one day. Perhaps its only a matter of training or whatever but I know I won't have to deal with it.

1911's and BHP's. What's the big deal? They work and they'll continue working until the age of laser pistols. And even then they'll be effective.

And DA/SA's "a perfect solution in desperate search of a problem" huh? Isn't this the same tedious non sequiter used against the .40 caliber and polymer frames that we get beat over the head week after week?


Well, as Ella Fitzgerald and Tamara once said "you say 'po-tay-toh I say po-tah-toe' "

...Let's call the whole thing off:D ;) :p

[Rob96]

What everyone said in support of the 1911.:D

[buttrap]

Ah can anyone rapid fire a out of the box 1911? seems to me a person could put about 6 rounds in a persons gut while the .45 is pointed at the moon? I have a old colt and it does have a good trigger(did not come that way) but its not my pick for fast aimed fire.

[Byron Quick]

Isn't this the same tedious non sequiter used against the .40 caliber and polymer frames that we get beat over the head week after week?

Nope. Personal opinion and personal preference. I have no problem with what others choose. But I could have bought another 1911, revolver, or long gun instead...so I do.

[Al Thompson]

buttrap, it's all a matter of training.

[Tamara]

Ah can anyone rapid fire a out of the box 1911?

The 1911's ability for "fast aimed fire" is part of the reason it shoots in a class of its own in IDPA.

[Sean Smith]

Ah can anyone rapid fire a out of the box 1911? seems to me a person could put about 6 rounds in a persons gut while the .45 is pointed at the moon? I have a old colt and it does have a good trigger(did not come that way) but its not my pick for fast aimed fire.

It should be.

[Pico]

I'm not a fan of the 1911 personally but acknowledge it's position:

-Manual safeties on handguns, can be in the wrong position at the wrong time and get you killed with an AD or get you killed when the gun doesn't fire.
-Don't care for the feeding characteristics of the .45 ACP in JHP and I think the FMJ .45 is a very overrated stopper. I think a handgun needs speed in it's round not mass to be effective.
-Only 7+1 rounds is way too low, you might as well just use a revolver and be done with the hassle of trying to feed that big bore JHP ammo.
-Slow follow up shots.
-Cheap ones are junk, good ones cost an arm and a leg.
-Have to be too loose to be reliable, have to be too tight to be accurate.

-On and on.

After all this, as much as I like the Glocks and Sigs and other "Euro-crap", I know when a "typical" handgun is placed in a museum in 100,000 years by our distant relatives to be, it will be a 1911 next to a picture of John Wayne.

It's like putting a Corvette article in a car magazine... a 1911 on the cover of a gun mag will double sales. As said before, if the same design is still around after 100 years, it must be right for a lot of people.

Pico

[Byron Quick]

-Manual safeties on handguns, can be in the wrong position at the wrong time and get you killed with an AD or get you killed when the gun doesn't fire.

I assume you mean that the user has forgotten to disengage the safety or to reengage the safety not that the safety is in the wrong place on the pistol.

If the first is correct, then it is a practice and training issue...nothing more.

[Quintin Likely]

...that so many manufacturers today have some kind of problem where they try stuffing cartridges that are nearly 1/2" in diameter in a double stack magazine, creating a grip thick enough that'd best be suited for a shoulder fired weapon. ;) I like single-stack .45s, the 1911 seems to be the most popular platform for that purpose. Works for me.

-Only 7+1 rounds is way too low, you might as well just use a revolver and be done with the hassle of trying to feed that big bore JHP ammo.

If 7+1 and a reload can't get the job done, there's several other choices:

1 - More training.
2 - The strategic retreat.
3 - Bring a rifle if you're expecting that much trouble.

-Don't care for the feeding characteristics of the .45 ACP in JHP and I think the FMJ .45 is a very overrated stopper. I think a handgun needs speed in it's round not mass to be effective.

I'm not gonna touch that one with a 10 foot pole...

-Slow follow up shots.

...can be remedied by training and is directly dependent on the shooter.

-Cheap ones are junk, good ones cost an arm and a leg.

I thought that was the way things were in life? Never skimp on anything that's going in your stomach, on your feet, or in your holster. <edit> And besides, you could buy a decent fighting grade 1911, nothing fancy or anything, for well under $1K. Probably within the same price range as most other semi autos (eg Glock, Sig, Beretta, etc al) and not too far away from some higher end revolvers.

To each their own, I suppose, that's why there's hundreds of manufacturers of all different types of pistolas to suit your needs.

[Sven]

There's something in the way she shoots,
Or looks my way, or calls my name,

http://www.imageseek.com/valtro/sven/1998A1_s.jpg

http://www.imageseek.com/valtro/sven/custom45_s.jpg

...with apologies to James Taylor. This gun points very naturally for me, has an extremely light trigger (allowing or more precise shots), and the reset on the trigger is about... half a millimeter... making rapid fire as easy as moving my finger a full millimeter for each shot.

The grips are slim and checkered - much easier to hold on to than any other gun I own. Plus, it eats big bullets.

[Boats]

:rolleyes:

-Manual safeties on handguns, can be in the wrong position at the wrong time and get you killed with an AD or get you killed when the gun doesn't fire.

It never ceases to amaze me that the folks who worry about "forgetting" their thumb safety on a 1911 are going to "remember" to keep their finger off the trigger when they don't want to shoot. I am sure that for Sean, myself, and other ardent 1911 shooters in this thread, we catch ourselves from time to time swiping safeties off on other handguns that don't have them. On the draw I have swiped revolvers, an XD I tried, and once, just once, swiped the pistol grip unconciously on an AR-15. I didn't believe it, but my friends and I were videotaping and sure enough, I'd done it with the first mag eventhough the AR was off safe and already pointed downrange after charging.

-Don't care for the feeding characteristics of the .45 ACP in JHP and I think the FMJ .45 is a very overrated stopper. I think a handgun needs speed in it's round not mass to be effective.

JHP feeding problems are overstated in modern 1911 pistols. From mags that seat the round higher relative to the chamber, ramped barrels, and essentially factory ramped and throated set-ups from everyone else=problem solved.

As for mass versus velocity in a handgun round, there are literally thousands of dead guys killed by Thompsons, Grease Guns, and 1911s who'd disagree mightily about the effectiveness of .45ACP FMJ if they somehow could. :evil:

-Only 7+1 rounds is way too low, you might as well just use a revolver and be done with the hassle of trying to feed that big bore JHP ammo.

There is no feeding problem, but as an aside, one can readily go to 8+1, 10+1, or even 14+1 thereabouts and still have everything a 1911 is famous for. BTW are you going to establish your own "beat zone" of suppressive fire on the street or something? A civilian self-defense shooter "owns" every bullet launched. As a civilian, if 7+1 can't get it done, chances are you are going to prison or the morgue. One thing is certain, you can't find or carry as easily a revolver that equals the power and flat concealability of a Commander sized 1911.

-Slow follow up shots.

Which is of course why the CDP class .45ACP 1911 is as fast or faster than all other times at the IDPA nationals for SSP (Glocks), and SSR (revos). Only the ESP division, filled with SA 9mm "gamers" armed with pistols that not many with sense would rely on in reality, come close.

-Cheap ones are junk, good ones cost an arm and a leg.

Cheap ones can be junk. Good ones are cost competitive with anything on the market. Exceptional ones cost and arm and a leg.

-Have to be too loose to be reliable, have to be too tight to be accurate.

Pure misconception. It is not the slide to frame fit that determines accuracy, it is the quality of the fitting of the barrel lugs to the lock up cuts in the hood and the fitting around the muzzle and the slide or bushing that determines accuracy. Again, in non-.22 accuracy competitions, the contests are dominated by 1911s.

Got any more howlers?:D

[Pico]

Hey great replies everybody. Seriously, Cceared up a lot of my misconceptions.. No kidding. Also, incredible pictures Sven, that is a beautiful gun.

OK,

Boats... 2 of the 3 guns you claimed killed thousands were FULL AUTO. I could also cite the thousands killed with small caliber full auto by Germans and Russians in WWII. But, I am not arguing the .45 ACP (and 1911) has not put time in combat and served well. I am having some problems wondering how dead guys are going to argue anything at all....:) Maybe in the next life we can poll them?

Instead of flipping a switch that may or may not be there, finger off the trigger is a great universal safety that will work on SA, revolvers, BB guns, and everything else from power drills to squirt guns. That is my opinion and the one shared by the overwhelming majority of gun designers in the last decade or so.

I don't own a .45 ACP in a 1911 platform or anything else (go ahead and quote me and say that is the main problem) but all of my friends WHO DO OWN ONE have told me JHP rounds don't always feed well in .45 ACP in their pisolts. Their real live experiences not mine. If you can make them feed fine but the 1911 was primarily designed for FMJ, hardball, whatever you want to call it. Would any of you choose this for a self-defense round?

A 7+1 .45 is low capacity compared to most semi-autos some of which are .45 ACP. This does make a skinny grip to hold and a flat pistol to hide, no argument there. Just pointing it out but if it turns into spray and pray, the other guy will still be spraying and you'll be praying unless you bring some more mags to the party.

I've shot .45's and it is a very different feel from a 9 mm snap and not unpleasant but it isn't anything like what a good, rapid shooting pistol should be. I have big hands and am very strong but I still can empty a mag faster on target with almost anything else.

Guys, I admire this pistol and Mr. Browning's genius. I also admire the SAA Colt and Sam Colt's vision.

I just don't admire either of these fine old handguns enough to put up with them when better, more modern weapons are available which do the job better.

Excuse me, let me get my fire extinguisher.

Pico

[E357]

I don't own a .45 ACP in a 1911 platform or anything else (go ahead and quote me and say that is the main problem) but all of my friends WHO DO OWN ONE have told me JHP rounds don't always feed well in .45 ACP in their pisolts. Their real live experiences not mine. If you can make them feed fine but the 1911 was primarily designed for FMJ, hardball, whatever you want to call it. Would any of you choose this for a self-defense round?
Pico: There are a few semi-autos that were designed for JHP or WC bullets. The majority of (and all military) semi-autos were designed with FMJ bullets in mind.

Elliot

[varoadking]

Second really good tag line I've seen here. Unfortunately, like the other, I'll likely forget it too... :banghead:

[Sven]

Pics were taken by Oleg Volk.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'm still trying to find out what problem a double action auto solves that a 1911 will not, besides safe holsterless pocket carry.


Pico: I shoot a 1911 quite a bit faster than my dad's cz-40, and only a little slower than my dad's ruger mark2 .22 it's likely that your form is not how it should be for 1911 shooting, as a 1911 is different than a glock or a sig.


All of the 1911s in the house will feed empty cases when hand cycled briskly, and none of them have choked on jhp ammo.

I just don't admire either of these fine old handguns enough to put up with them when better, more modern weapons are available which do the job better.

Could you name these "more modern handguns that do the job better"?


Which job are you talking about?

I have big hands and am very strong...

I have small hands and i'm not very strong, and i prefer the 1911, primarly because it's the only full sized autopistol out there that fits me and is in a useable caliber besides the kahr.

[varoadking]

Funny you should ask that... :scrutiny:

Took the brand new .45 Springfield TRP to the range for its baptism today. Second magazine - last 5 rounds discharged full auto. Did this on three consecutive magazines - last 3, 4 or 5 rounds each time. Shot dead-on POA/POI otherwise - 7 rounds/3 holes in the bull! One of them had all 5 rounds through it, so I don't think that counts. :rolleyes:

Fast enough for ya? :neener:

Needless to say - it drew some attention - and was, admitedly, fun. This one's going back to Geneseo on the next flight out...

[B27]

Sure you wanna do that, va?
I could of sworn I saw an ad for thirty round 1911 mags......;) :D

[Quintin Likely]

Instead of flipping a switch that may or may not be there, finger off the trigger is a great universal safety that will work on SA, revolvers, BB guns, and everything else from power drills to squirt guns. That is my opinion and the one shared by the overwhelming majority of gun designers in the last decade or so.

Toting around a single action pistol with a round in the chamber, hammer back with no safety gives me the willies. The 1911 wasn't intended to be carried cocked and unlocked. Either cocked and locked or empty chamber. Keep-your-finger-off-the-trigger-till-you're-ready is great for DA/SA autos, since there's that loooonnngggg 8-10 lbs (if not more) first DA trigger pull.

I don't own a .45 ACP in a 1911 platform or anything else (go ahead and quote me and say that is the main problem) but all of my friends WHO DO OWN ONE have told me JHP rounds don't always feed well in .45 ACP in their pisolts. Their real live experiences not mine. If you can make them feed fine but the 1911 was primarily designed for FMJ, hardball, whatever you want to call it. Would any of you choose this for a self-defense round?

And many of my friends who own 1911s (I don't own one either...not yet) say JHPs cycle fine in them. If feeding a big problem, there's always ammo like Cor-Bon's Powerball or Federal EFMJ. The majority of modern 1911s from reputable manufacturers are screwed together well and are pretty darn reliable. Most reliablity horror stories come from no-name 1911s or from box-stock 1911s that have been tinkered with to the nth degree to the point where reliablity has been compromised. If it ain't broke...

A 7+1 .45 is low capacity compared to most semi-autos some of which are .45 ACP. This does make a skinny grip to hold and a flat pistol to hide, no argument there. Just pointing it out but if it turns into spray and pray, the other guy will still be spraying and you'll be praying unless you bring some more mags to the party.

How many rounds do you expect to fire in a self-defensive situation? I've never been there, but I'm gonna guess if a two-bit crook who wanted your wallet sees you returning fire in his direction, he may bug out and call it even since the guy he thought was helpless is ready to hurt him badly. If the hood in question is trading shots with you, you're probably up against something other than the standard run-of-the-mill hoodlum. And while they may not be "true" 1911s, there are double stack high capacity 1911s from companies like Kimber, Springfield, Wilson Combat, and Para Ordnance if you want to send the best and a lot of it down-range.

<edited for spelling>

[Rob96]

Only 7+1 rounds is way too low, you might as well just use a revolver and be done with the hassle of trying to feed that big bore JHP ammo.

Why use a revovler if you do have a 1911 that will feed JHP's all day long. While I am a fan of 357magnums revovlers, and my my KGP-141 weighs as much as my Colt 1991A1, the Colt is more comfortable. Also, with the dimple throating that they do, it feeds JHP's just fine.

[varoadking]

Don't go givin' me any ideas... :evil:

[antediluvianist]

Regarding this hollow-point versus ball debate, hey guys, let's be real - the chances are you will never get into a real gunfight; and if you do and you hit the guy with hardball - well, the object is to make the other person stop, not necessarily to kill him/her . Anybody out there who won't be stopped with a .45 hardball or two in center mass? The Incredible Hulk?

Placement is always the most important factor. A .45 or two- hardball, softball, blueball, whatever - in center mass will do it. The Brits have had the right idea since they started using their larger Webleys - a large, slow bullet has the momentum to hurt the other person bad.

Here's to large, slow bullets! A 230 grain .45 slug is twice as massive as the typical 9mm. 115 grain slug. Momentum is directly proportional to mass and velocity..
The velocity of the 9mm. slug (about 1200 ft/sec.) is certainly not twice as fast as the velocity of the .45 slug (about 850 ft./sec.), ergo the .45 has significantly better momentum (knock-down power). M x Vsquared is Energy, but what counts is Momentum, which is just M x V.

However, Pico, I do believe you are right that - OUT OF THE BOX - any 1911, no matter how expensive, is not likely to be anywhere nearly as reliable as a modern pistol such as the obviously reliable Glock 17 (the other Glock models are not as reliable.) I say that as an owner of two 1911s. They are reliable enough, but do malfunction. But you gotta love the .45 cartridge. Get the gun for the cartridge.

[lycanthrope]

When I bought my first handgun in 1984, I thought the 1911 looked square and ugly. I was into high capacity and spray and pray. I shot Rugers, Berettas, Sigs and more recently Glocks and XD's.

3 years ago I shot a Kimber .45 and bought one a few months later. Shooting IDPA and USPSA has taught me a lot about what I thought I knew about shooting fast and accurately. I KNOW I can shoot a 1911 A LOT faster than any of the other above mentioned guns (the XD is nice though). There is a reason that single action 1911 style guns are in different divisions than other double action or safe action guns. Correctly fitted to the user, they are almost always faster. I would trade the 15+1 spray and pray to 8+1 "A-zone" hits any day. If I need 15+1 then my situational awareness has likely slipped hard. I'm in a place I never should have been (ok, I do carry an extra 8 round mag, just in case). Cocked and locked? Been carrying high power rifles for years like that. The exposed hammer just freaks out the ignorant.

[Pico]

Of course 15 or 17 rounds should never be needed and I fully see the point that we do not live in the movies where gunfights go on for many rounds. Usually after only one round, someone is dead or incapacitated in the real world.

All of your arguments are very convincing and obviously I am in the minority concerning the 1911 and .45 cart since no one else has really agreed with me.

I've heard some say they love the 1911 and some love it because of the .45 it uses. I think a lot of folks love it because that's what they shoot and is what they'll always shoot and there's nothing wrong with that. It looks like the original poster's question has been answered - repeatedly.

Despite the Glock and Beretta's footprint in the police and military, the .45 is still being used by some elite units (FBI SWAT and Marines MEU-recon). So it is not truly obsolete as a service weapon.

I don't want one but I see now why everybody else does and a lot of good information has come out. Thanks...

Getting off the original subject a bit...

I'm a little confused why people damn a cheap little Kel-Tec P-11 which has been reported to have reliability problems "out of the box" (Mine has never had any problems at all) and smile and allow a much more expensive weapon with problems out of the box to escape criticism. I'm for gun manufacturers to make reliable arms regardless of price and if they aren't reliable, make them so at their expense.

If Glock can make their pistols work more reliably, the other manufacturers should improve their products accordingly and not expect us to complete the process.

Pico

[Byron Quick]

I'm still waiting to get a 1911 that has all the problems folks relate. None of mine have been the super high dollar models. All have run like champs.

The few failures to feed that I've had during the break in period were mirrored by the few failures to feed I experienced with my Glock 29 out of the box.

And I haven't criticized a Kel-Tec. I carry a Kel-Tec as a BUG everywhere I carry my 1911 and many places where I am unable to carry the 1911.

I do not carry a 1911 because that is what I carry and what I shoot.

The first gun I carried on a daily basis thirty years ago was a Mauser Hsc.
Then a Dan Wesson .357. Then a FN HP. Then a Glock 29. Then a 1911.

[Boats]

I'm a little confused why people damn a cheap little Kel-Tec P-11 which has been reported to have reliability problems "out of the box" (Mine has never had any problems at all) and smile and allow a much more expensive weapon with problems out of the box to escape criticism. I'm for gun manufacturers to make reliable arms regardless of price and if they aren't reliable, make them so at their expense.


Isn't this what it really boils down to? You haven't had any trouble with a particular example of a Kel-Tec, and I have had two FTEs on my latest 1911, both occurring in the first 50 rounds, one of which was because a Blazer rim gave way, and never since through the next 5500+. If that is "unreliable" I will take it and the 1911's reputation for choking.;)

[Shaughn Leayme]

A friend brought up the question of the limited mag capacity of the 1911 (7+1, 8+1) and how I might as well carry a revolver.

I had a simple answer, I can reload on the fly at about .85 seconds (average) from a magazine pouch, I haven't timed my reload for a revolver with a speed loader (I don't have any revolvers that use full moon clips, as of yet) but I know it is not anywhere near .85 sec.

In a 1911 (or most any auto) one can dump the empty magazine with one hand, while at the same time be bringing the full magazine up and insert it into the butt of the pistol and release slide and get back to the business at hand.

In a revolver, one must use the other hand to trip the cylinder release and push the cylinder out, turn the revolver upwards and push the ejector rod, to vigorously eject the casings, then with the revolver in a muzzle down position, retrieve the speed loader from it's pouch and insert and using the index finger of the primary hand to hold the cylinder in place, spin the knob on the speed loader with the off hand, then close the cylinder and get back into action.

Now admittedly, the possibility that you would get into a fight that requires a reload is a rare event, but it can happen and given how the bg's of the world are beginning to run in packs, the ability to get back into the action quickly is an important point.

Never mind the fact, that if there is a lull in the action that one can easily top up an auto by inserting a full magazine and retaining the partial, you still have a round up the spout and provided that you have no magazine safety, you can still shoot if need be. With the revolver it is an all or nothing situation, since if the cylinder is open while you are reloading, it is basically out of comission.

Like anything it comes down to the personal preference of the user.

[Tamara]

None of my current 1911's have been anything other than 100% reliable. With ball, with JHP, with semi-wadcutters, with +P, with standard pressure, whatever. I have had, in the past, some much balkier ones. But I should laugh at, say, Wilsons because an Auto Ord was a piece of junk?

[Sean Smith]

My take on this whole thing is, in the end, simply this: you don't have to like design X, but if you are going to talk smack about it, it helps to actually know something about it that isn't gun counter jibber-jabber or third-hand ersatz "knowledge." :rolleyes:

[Byron Quick]

Sean,

I'll agree with that...to a point:D I don't care for SA/DA platforms for I see no need for them. I've always described them as a perfect solution in desperate search of a problem. But I don't denigrate specific models...just the entire class.


ducks for cover...digging furiously

[agentwithrow]

DA/SA , saftey here or there, damn who cares, it why all these fine pistols are made different to suit different shooting styles and people preference. I have absolutely no trouble, switching from my SW1911 (saftey swings down to hot) and then the next set use the 92FS in which it swings up to hot. and if I use my USP Expert it's different with the decock, if you have trouble with a saftey or trigger, you got 3 optioins!

* buy another pistol

* practice more, train, prepare

* don't carry

Oh yeah, ask Rob Leatham if anyone can shoot a 1911 fast.......

[jacketch]

In regard to mag capacity: The 1911 more than makes up for that alleged shortcoming by ensuring a high percentage of one shot stops.

[farscott]

I think there are a few reasons why the 1911 gets a "bad rap" for reliability in some circles.

1) The design has been modified by so many people in so many ways, and there have been many manufacturers, with varying levels of quality. There are variants with 6" barrels and variants with 3" barrels, and just about every length in between. It has been chambered for just about as many rounds as the Colt SAA, everything from .22 LR to .357 Magnum to .45 ACP to 10mm Auto to 9x23 Winchester. With all of these variants, it is not surprising that some 1911's just do not run well.

2) Kitchen-table gunsmithing. Just about every used 1911 I have ever bought has needed some work to be undone. I have found them with mangled sear springs, wacky sights, messed up thumb safeties, horrible sears, and a litany of other abuse. My standard practice when buying a used 1911 is a to take it to my trusted gunsmith for a full check-up. Buying a 1911 used is not an exercise for those new to the platform.

That being said, all of my centerfire autoloading pistols are 1911's. I tried just about everything else, and nothing works better for me. They fit my small hands, are easy to carry concealed, and have a very simple manual of arms. I shoot 1911's faster and more accurately than other autoloading pistol designs.

[CWL]

Every gun class I have ever taken there were people shooting 1911s. They were the ones whose guns were constantly malfunctioning or outright breaking.



HBK,

I would still like the names of the classes/instructors you attended where you witnessed this.

[XavierBreath]

You know, after a decade and a half or so of shooting DA/SA type pistols, this year I finally gave in and bought a Springfield Mil-Spec. For me, the proof was in the pudding. This is a pistol that I am more accurate with. Whether it's the trigger or whatever, I am a better shooter with it in my hand. I am much faster on the first shot as well, and more accurate doing that. It is simply easier for me to hold on target and snick off a thumb safety and fire a SA round accurately than to hold a DA/SA pistol on target while quickly pressing a DA trigger. That first shot does count in defense.

I bought that Mil-Spec around Febuary. I now have FIVE 1911 style handguns, if you count my Paraordnance 6.45 LDA (That is my hot weather carry gun now). The others range from a springfield WWII model to a Gold Cup. A lot of DA/SA iron got traded off, and I'm a lot happier for it. I wasn't a bad shooter with the DA/SA, (and the HK USPs are safe since you can C&L them) but I am a better shooter with the SA platform. That was enough for me. Your results may vary.

[MoNsTeR]

There are 3 wonderful things about the 1911:
1. the trigger
2. the trigger
3. the trigger

[Sunray]

"...the 1911 fits most people's hands better than..." Exactly. I have wide but short hands. My Colt fits me. None of the supernines or DA pistols do. Not one. I hate it, because I was working in a gun store when the CZ75's first came into Canada. Long before they got into the States. Nice. Desparately wanted one. Too big.
In the olden days, the gun rags always said what a big, powerful pistol it is.
Big recoil and all the rest. Nonsense. It's fun shooting a .45. I even find I like it more than my HP. Not as much blast and noise.
The only grief my Colt has ever given me was caused by ammo. Operator failure at the loading bench. Popped a primer that drove the cast bullet about half way down the barrel, didn't notice it and bulged the barrel on the next shot. Change of barrels and away it went as if nothing happened.
Also, they're easy to work on. There's lots of aftermarket parts and you don't have to put anything on one except for good sights. And that's easy and inexpensive.

[HBK]

I don't know the people's names. I was more worried about my shooting and learning what was being taught. I just noticed people working on their 1911s. I took 6 classes. In 5 classes I saw at least one to two people that had something go wrong with their 1911 to the point that they had to get it worked on. I don't know the details. It just left me with the impression, that "If they break down that much, why have one." I think there was an extractor problem with one and a trigger problem with one. That's about it.

[Ian11]

While I highly respect 1911 pistols and numerous other designs by J.M. Browning many of the owners get "annoying" because of their dogmatism. Nothing but a .45 will do and it HAS to be shot through a 1911 design. Nothing else will do for them so nothing else will do for others. "1911 true believers" are more insistant than others on this point. Although in reality they relish the fact that so many others use "inferior" pistols or calibers. These are the same personality types that are dogmatic about their individual Glocks, SIG's, H&K's, and .357 wheelguns. These people are not really concerned about you and your choice. In reality its about how things reflect on them compared to others. There are many great things about owning a 1911 but slandering other people's choices (esp. from people who never actually had to rely on one in real life) simply shows a lack of class. That's why I haven't and will never talk down about another person's weapon.

I primary shoot Glocks and SIG's and I have no problem celebrating the virtues of the "cocked and locked/big and slow" philosophy. I used to own several Colt 1911's myself and decided it wasn't for me. I write this after buying some .40 S&W hollowpoints today and the gun clerk shakes his head and tells me, "I don't believe in those small bullets. That's why I carry a 1911 .45" (Unconsciously, breathes in and pushes out his chest) I remarked "Well, I've a SIG .45 at home too". He retorts, "So what are you doing with this then?"

What are you gonna do? People who truely understand the virtues and pitfalls of 1911's, DA/SA's, Glocks, revolvers, and various calibers (and each of their reason for being) tend to have a more objective, nay realistic, understanding of the role of the defensive handgun.

[Andrew Wyatt]

show me another .45 that'll fit my hand and i'll consider changing my mind.

[Ian11]

Andrew,

Exactly, if it doesn't fit don't force the issue.

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

I have to admit that I prefer my 10mm Megastar over my Plain Jane 1911 since it has even more punch than the 1911 and the big grip does fill my hand quite nicely, but... If Mike Hammer's 1911 Betsy was good enough for him, it certainly is good enough for me. As far as function and reliability of both guns, I have no complaints about either one. They will both shoot as long as you are willing to keep feeding them and pulling the trigger. I have never continuously shot enough ammo in either gun to have either gun refuse to fire because of powder fouling. I have on several occasions shot four or five hundred rounds in one session without cleaning and without fouling jams. That is probably because of the slop built into them, but, then again, I'm not shooting at 50 yard targets either. Both the old 45 and the modern 10 are hard hitters. The 45 has stood the test of time, and I believe the 10 would do likewise if more good guns like the Megastar were made for it.

I also like 9s, 38s, 32s, 25s, and 22s, but I will always have a special fondness for the memory of Mike and his Betsy - and, oh yes, lovely Velma.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Majic]

For an opposing thought to Ian11's comment, most 1911 fans are tolerant of the "it's old, it doesn't hold enough rounds, it breaks all the time, it's too heavy, the bullets are to slow, or you can't controll it rapid fire" comments we hear all the time. I have noticed that my personal experiences with people making those comments usually are not experienced and not very good shooters.
The one and only way to find out the virtues of any handgun is to handle and fire it yourself and draw your own conclusions.
The 1911 is not for everyone, but we have a vast market of other models that may please someone.

[Ian11]

David,

I like Raymond Chandler's character Philip Marlowe and his trusty Luger cruising the Sunset Strip. And a girl next to him with a body that feels like a slap across the face:D



And Majic,

I'm not sure how its an opposing thought to what I've said but I tend to agree with your last post.

[Pico]

Two items to clear up...

Quote #1
--------------
Here's to large, slow bullets! A 230 grain .45 slug is twice as massive as the typical 9mm. 115 grain slug. Momentum is directly proportional to mass and velocity..
The velocity of the 9mm. slug (about 1200 ft/sec.) is certainly not twice as fast as the velocity of the .45 slug (about 850 ft./sec.), ergo the .45 has significantly better momentum (knock-down power). M x Vsquared is Energy, but what counts is Momentum, which is just M x V.
---------------

Speed kills. Little bullets moving fast seems to work pretty well for the military. Do hunters use large, slow bullets? I can throw a rock pretty slow but it will bouce off. I see what you're saying and appreciate it, though. How much momentum is being taken up the equal and opposite reaction aspect of recoil?

Quote #2
----------------
Isn't this what it really boils down to? You haven't had any trouble with a particular example of a Kel-Tec, and I have had two FTEs on my latest 1911, both occurring in the first 50 rounds, one of which was because a Blazer rim gave way, and never since through the next 5500+. If that is "unreliable" I will take it and the 1911's reputation for choking.
------------------
Off the mark. Boats, nobody is pointing just at you. Look, multiple postings in this thread have cited the 1911 as having occasional reliability issues and not being reliable out of the box. Look and read. They also have dispelled many myths, good and bad. No need to defend your purchase to me.

No way am I comparing a cheap Kel-Tec to a fine weapon like a 1911. Just commenting on how people will forgive issues when they are clouded by non-objectivity. I love my wife too and she is far from perfect. :]

Online forums are for discussion, folks. When we all sit around and nod with, "Well, I just think people should shoot what they like and if they do it's fine with me"- type postings it gets very boring. The original poster has received very good evidence as have I why the 1911 has been around for so long. I've learned a lot in the process and have softened my position on this firearm and its cartridge because of it. Still don't want either but I see why you guys do.

Life is too short to not voice your opinion even if people would like to use you as a target holder at the range. I urge everyone to always voice it without fear, even when you know you are in the minority. I respect everyone on this forum very highly and have enjoyed the intellectual sparring but I'm not coming back in because I'm done in general with all online forums for guns, computers, or anthing else.

Later,
Pico

[Rob96]

Speed kills. Little bullets moving fast seems to work pretty well for the military. Do hunters use large, slow bullets? I can throw a rock pretty slow but it will bouce off. I see what you're saying and appreciate it, though. How much momentum is being taken up the equal and opposite reaction aspect of recoil?


That has got to be one of the biggest pieces of misinformation out there. You throw your slow rocks, I'll throw my slow 230gr bullets. Compare the lite fast 45 loads to the 230gr loads, the 230's win out.

Off the mark. Boats, nobody is pointing just at you. Look, multiple postings in this thread have cited the 1911 as having occasional reliability issues and not being reliable out of the box. Look and read. They also have dispelled many myths, good and bad. No need to defend your purchase to me.

Not being reliable out of the box? Have you tried a new Colt lately, they are anything but unreliable.

[Rob96]

Manual safeties on handguns, can be in the wrong position at the wrong time and get you killed with an AD or get you killed when the gun doesn't fire.

Training issue not a hardware issue.


Cheap ones are junk, good ones cost an arm and a leg.

Again, have you looked at the new Colts?

Have to be too loose to be reliable, have to be too tight to be accurate

And again, look at the new Colts. Yes the slide to frame fit isn't as tight as a Les Baer, but is not too loose. Slide to frame tightness is maybe 5% of the guns accuracy. Lockup of the barrel is where it's at.

[Byron Quick]

F=mv.

Equation means that a 115 grain 9mm has to be moving TWICE as fast to deliver the same energy as a 230 grain .45ACP. This, of course, is ignoring variable such as delivery of energy. Any projectile which exits a body has not delivered all of its energy to the target. Which of the above bullets will deliver more of the available energy to the target? Which is more likely to exit the target with undelivered energy? Which is more likely to exit at a higher velocity and thus, a higher percentage of undelivered energy?

[Dobe]

Nothing else will do for them so nothing else will do for others. "1911 true believers" are more insistant than others on this point.

Ian,
Who usually starts these threads? It is usually someone, who wishes to find fault with the .45 and/or 1911. Personally, I think the more guns you own the better. I myself have shot and owned a variety of handguns. My favorite is the 1911 for a variety of reasons. People that really like this handgun do so, because of what it offers the shooter, not for cult reasons.

[Mad Man]

Nothing else will do for them so nothing else will do for others. "1911 true believers" are more insistant than others on this point.

True story:

After Colorado passed a "shall-issue" CCW law earlier this year, a woman I work with became interested in getting a handgun and a permit, but had no experience whatsover. Naturally, she asked me for help.

I let her handle several of my handguns: Glocks, Sigs, CZs, Berettas, 1911s, Browning Hi Powers, and maybe one or two more that slip my mind right now. Because she had so much trouble with the slide and controls, I suggested she start off with a revolver. So we went to the gun store, and she ended up with a Ruger SP-101 (3" barrel, with Hougue grips), for reasons I have described elsewhere (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=350180#post350180). We took it out, and she was pretty happy with it.

She enrolled in CCW course from DFUSE (http://markco.gunsnet.net/training.html). While most of what I heard about the training is excellent, two things frustrated her.

1. She did not want to use her revolver for the shooting test. At first, I didn't understand why, but several parts of the course required shooting timed strings of 6 rounds (3 IDPA targets x 2 shots each), and some required 12 (shoot twice at the 3 targets, reload, do again). Obviously difficult to do with a 5 shot revolver.

2. After having her go through my handguns again, I loaned her my Walther P-5, because it was the easiest for her to manipulate. However, the instructor (whose name I do not remember) would not let her use it, supposedly because the European-style magazine release on the heel did not meet his criteria for fast reloads. Instead, he loaned her/made her use a 1911 (in .40, I think). She ended up having to re-do part of the test, but eventually passed.

Afterwards, he insisted that she should get a 1911.

It was after hearing her tell me all of this that I really begun to get upset with the cult-of-the-1911 mentality. Espeically since I remember when I felt the same way about Glocks -- until I actually started taking people out shooting, and learning (much to my surprise) that different guns worked for different people.

Now, this woman seems dedicated enough that a semi-auto might work for her. She wants to go shoot some more of my guns, to see what works for her before making a decision. She wants to get into IDPA. And maybe a 1911 might be a good choice, although I think she's leaning toward the CZ. (While she can shoot a semi-auto just fine, I think a semi-auto would be a bad choice because of maintenance, but that's another story).

Anyway, Ian's original point about "1911 true believers" trying to force their choice upon others seems valid to me. While the 1911 is a good gun (I own 5, including one I had custom built for me), it seem seems that the whole belief has more to do with the meme being a self-reinforcing feedback loop (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=359475#post359475), rather than anything to do with the merits of the gun itself.

Yeah, the 1911 is a good handgun, but so are many others.

[varoadking]

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Or something like that. There seems to be a stong anti-1911 "cult" as well. As with many things, these anti-opinions appear to have been developed without any experience with what it is someone professes to dislike...

[NoVaGator]

F=mv

Actually, it's energy=mass x velocity squared

A 230 gr .45 @ ~875 fps muzzle velocity delivers 391 ft-lbs (at the muzzle)

A 115 gr. 9mm @ ~1100 fps results in 383 ft-lbs.

Pretty darn close. This doesn't measure stopping power - I don't know if anyone has a accurate measure of that, other than to say that, all other things being equal, speed kills.

FWIW, I own a HK USP in .45, which I feel is a far superior pistol to any comparably-priced 1911 - I've owned a few 1911's.

BTW, first post here. I post under the same name on AR15.com. You have a great board here.

[Boats]

Maybe, just maybe, the idea that 1911 dominance is the"whole belief [which] has more to do with the meme being a self-reinforcing feedback loop, rather than anything to do with the merits of the gun itself," is really a reflection of the fear of suffering cognitive dissonance.

You see, many people purposely avoid the 1911 experience because doing so is going to harm their insular little worldview [this is not really applicable to Sven]. The internet is replete with testimonials of "seeing the light" and going with the 1911 after shooters had futzed with every other platform under the sun. I know what this type of phenomenon is like, having dismissed revolvers without a second thought for many years, I eventually found my dislike for them had really boiled down to two things: a six-inch Python I inherited felt muzzle heavy to me and I hate the S&W style cylinder catch. I could see why revolvers were popular, but I hated every one I had ever owned or tried.

Then again, I had never tried a Ruger. Once I had fired three and four inch GP-100s with their push button cylinder catch, I started putting away my pennies for one or both a GP and an SP. Every conception I had of the revolver as obsolete and next to useless has been laid aside. Wheelguns don't suck. I merely hadn't been using the right one yet. I am also thinking of getting a 4" Python as long as I can find one made before 1983 or so.

Many people confront the primacy of the 1911 in autopistols the same way I approached revolvers during my ignorant phase. The more honest among them have actually tried or owned one and for whatever personal reasons cannot abide by them. These folks can still see why they might be popular with others and content themselves by simply saying the 1911 is not their cup of tea.

Then there are those who automatically view the 1911 as obsolete and think that whatever it is that they own has obviously supplanted it in terms of effectiveness, utility, and modernity. They are loud and mostly uninformed about the pistol. They most likely have never handled one on the range, or those that have were so jaundiced by prejudice that they could never give it a fair shake even when they tried it. These people are mostly self-certain fools and many are active denziens of Glock Talk. A small percentage of them get an embarrassing comeuppance when they actually find they can, like many people, shoot the 1911 better after a short day with it than they can the object of their misplaced devotion they spent years "mastering."

Of course the phenomenon works the other way with a hitch. After the 1911 trigger most other autopistols really do feel like crap.:evil:

Perhaps your girlfriend should shoot a 1911? How'd she shoot with one? My wife started with a steel Colt's Officer's Model when she had no preconceptions of what was politically correct for a "girlie" to shoot. She has never looked back. Some people just don't know what's best for them until they are exposed to it.

I am buying my first Ruger revolver in August.:cool:

[Mad Man]

F=mv

Actually, it's force=mass x velocity squared



momentum = mass x velocity

force = mass x acceleration

kinetic energy = mass x (velocity squared)

[NoVaGator]

Got ahead of myself. Need to add that energy, not momentum, is what matters.

[Mad Man]

Perhaps your girlfriend should shoot a 1911? How'd she shoot with one?

Boats,

I never said she was my girlfriend; she's my co-worker. Read more carefully, and please don't upset my actual girlfriend.

And as I also stated, in addition to being able to shoot a gun (which most people can do), I think a person should be able to maintain the gun they own, which includes the ability to disassemble it.

A person who can barely rack the slide (regardless of sex) is going to have a lot of trouble trying to take any semi-automatic pistol apart. This applies to 1911s, Glocks, Sigs, etc.


I wrote what I did as the owner of 5 1911s, one of them being a custom pistol that I spent $1,600 to have built for me from the ground up.

So I have nothing against the 1911. I actually like them a lot; but it doesn't prevent me from seeing the cult-of-personality that surrounds it.



These people are mostly self-certain fools


That's how I felt about every BM I hever had to deal with... ;)


like many people, shoot the 1911 better after a short day with it than they can the object of their misplaced devotion they spent years "mastering."


And this is based on what? It sounds like another example of cognitive dissonance.

My personal experience is that when letting people try out a variety of guns from my collection, most people shoot the CZ-75 better than anything else.

[Mad Man]

energy, not momentum, is what matters.

Why?

[dsk]

Life is too short to not voice your opinion even if people would like to use you as a target holder at the range.

Yeah, look what happened to these guys when they mouthed off about how their Norinco-made Type 59's are such junk compared to what the American soldiers are using. :D

http://www.nwlink.com/~dkamm/chinese.jpg

[Boats]

Sorry for erroneously stating your co-worker was your girlfriend. Also, I wasn't implying that you were closed minded about the 1911, but many people, including a lot of women in my experience, cannot adequately grip a double stacker like your CZ-75, which isn't exactly a gem to field strip either.:scrutiny:

The conversion eye-opener has not only happened at shooting matches at my favorite gun club, frequently newbies on 1911forum will tell variations of the tale. I am sure that it happens everywhere else too.;)

"I used to hate Glocks until my friend went overseas and loaned me his G23. . . ."

"For years I was telling myself the recoil of the .45 wasn't so bad, then I finally tried a BHP, how stupid was I. . .?"

Blah, blah, blah, that is all any of this board stuff is, please don't take it personally.:D

[shepsan]

When I first got interested in handguns the extent of my knowledge was that a revolver looked different than a semiautomatic pistol. So, starting with complete ignorance, I set about to learn about the features, peculiarities and attributes of various types, makes and models of handguns.

Once my study was accomplished, I bought a number of different types of handguns and trained in their use. It took concentration and lots of practice before I became a safe, proficient and accurate shooter of a specific gun.

I appreciate the design of handguns. Some guns are simple and pedestrian. Others are finely and precisely crafted. In time, I came to favor the type 1911 over all others. I believe its appeal to me is both esthetic and mechanical.

The visual impact of the 1911 design is quite stunning to me. I find its lines, curves and overall picture more pleasing than a revolver or say another semiautomatic pistol such as a Beretta, Glock or Walther. Then too, the overall configuration of the 1911 better fits my hand and allows for a more sensitive tactile feel by my fingers then any other type of handgun.

I have read what some have written about the mechanical failures of the 1911. It is my opinion that the failures experienced by those who have complained were caused by either a poorly made pistol, the failure of the gun owner to properly maintain his/her gun or simply the fact that the gun owner was not rightfully trained in the use of his/her handgun.

IMO, the mechanical working together of the 1911’s components is a masterful design characteristic. It is complex yet provides a gun owner with a product that is durable, reliable and accurate.

The 1911 is my choice for carry gun. I feel confident in my pistol and in my ability to use it. I trust that there are many who feel the same as I do.

[NoVaGator]

why?

Someting to do with vectors.

[Gary H]

I'm new to the 1911 and until last year, never imagined that I would want one. Started going for power and magazine capacity. That got me some glocks & Sig in .357 Sig and .40. I discovered that no matter what was said, I always was a bit concerned about errant finger on the trigger. Like my Glocks. I soon realized that high-caps were not the issue, but what I could shoot well was of prime concern. I bought and tried many top guns and ended up preferring the P7's, especially the M10. Then Sven and others made me aware of the Valtro. I decided to try it. I found out that I shot it better and faster than any of my other guns. It just simply points better in my hand. I spent a couple of hours with John Jardine last week. He has a shooting bag full of various manufacturers magazines (15+) and many types of ammunition. He actually takes them up to the hills and shoots all the stuff..with all the magazines. I infer from this that the 1911 can be a problem with some magazines and ammunition. I also would guess that once he finishes shooting, you can pretty much depend on the guns ability to feed from your magazine. Anyway, I now view the 1911 in a new light. This will be an expensive realization.

[cordex]

Which of the above bullets will deliver more of the available energy to the target? Which is more likely to exit the target with undelivered energy? Which is more likely to exit at a higher velocity and thus, a higher percentage of undelivered energy?
Every shot fired delivers 100% of the bullet's energy to the shooter. Equal and opposite reaction, right?
Granted, the energy is spread out and not being used to punch a little hole in the shooter, just trying to show that energy is not and never has been the be-all, end-all of wounding potential.

As for me, if we're talking about handguns (of which, ALL common calibers are extremely slow), I'll take big ugly holes over little ones any day.

[Dobe]

Anyway, Ian's original point about "1911 true believers" trying to force their choice upon others seems valid to me.

Mad Man,
While it is certainly true that some 1911 shooters have this mentality, I ask that you look in the past at the originators of the the post concerning the 1911 or the .45 ACP. It is usually someone, who is not an advocate of either.

And I do agree with you. There are many guns out there for many people. I have never stated that the 1911 is the gun for everyone, but rather that it is a wonderful design coupled with a proven caliber that has transended time.

[Boats]

If done right, the bang comes as a surprise; just as I have been told, does the climax in love making.


Shepsan, welcome to THR, but I do think I'd advise you to drop the keyboard, get out more, and meet somebody.:what: ;)

[aerod1]

I have three 1911A1 pistols. None have ever malfunctioned. They have been great guns ever since they came out of the box.

Jim Hall

[tac17]

The only big deal that I can see about the 1911 design is the trigger. I have owned a few and my father is a major card carrying member of the 1911 cult. I just don't like them, BHP's on the other hand, now that is a different story altogether. :)

[GSB]

Just a word about feeding reliability: Wilson mags (okay, two words). Really, the mag seems to be the weak spot on many supposedly "unreliable" 1911s. I've got a Kimber Ultra Carry that wouldn't feed properly at all. I was just about to dump it when I thought, what the heck, I'll throw a $30 Wilson at it and see what happens.

I've had no FTFs with it since.

Some 1911s have no problems at all with stock GI mags. Some do.

[GSB]

Speed kills. Little bullets moving fast seems to work pretty well for the military. Do hunters use large, slow bullets? I can throw a rock pretty slow but it will bouce off. I see what you're saying and appreciate it, though. How much momentum is being taken up the equal and opposite reaction aspect of recoil?

Hunters used large bullets for a long time. With the advent of high velocity rifle rounds and modern bullet design, you've got hydrostatic shock, bullet expansion and perhaps fragmentation working for you, so there is no reason not to take advantage of the far superiod long-range ballistics of a modern spitzer bullet of smaller caliber and higher velocity. However, you will not get substantial hydrostatic shock effects in pistol calibers, even the hot ones, and you are not generally concerned with long range ballistics characteristics. Speed doesn't kill. Transfer of kinetic energy and tissue destruction kill. Small and fast can only really work if you have a way of dumping all that energy into the target -- hence hollowpoints. It's really not as simple as you make it sound.

[dsk]

The reason why rifle rounds are so powerful is indeed a result of their high velocity. However we're talking a world of difference comparing a 230gr .45ACP at 810fps and a 115gr 9mm at 1,100fps, versus say a 55gr .223 at 3100fps. When the velocity threshold gets over ~2,500fps a lot happens when that bullet finally impacts the target. Under that you begin to lose the advantage of velocity. For example, on paper the .30 Carbine looks pretty hot (110gr at 1,900fps). Yet in combat it was regarded as having about the power lever of a .38 Special, albeit a longer-range one. No doubt JHP ammo would have improved on the GI-spec ball, but even then it's still no powerhouse.

[GSB]

My point exactly.