USAF anti-2nd amendment?


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ctrout
August 17, 2007, 08:43 AM
I am an E-6 in the active duty Air Force. By volunteering myself to defend this country with my life, there are certain constitutional rights that I have knowingly accepted some restrictions of. For instance, as an Air Force member, I must support the Commander In Chief, even if I think he's a jackass. It is against the law (UCMJ) for me to burn the flag or publicly speak out against certain political positions based on national security. It's even possible that I could face retribution for this post if it gets to my supervision.

Now on to the meat of my post. I just returned from a very successful combat mission in Afghanistan where I had tactical control of 15 of America's finest aircraft weapons loaders. Upon my return, I was ordered to report to Goodfellow NCO Academy for a 6 week leadership class. The class is in Texas and my cwp is honored here so I brought my Kimber with me. Regulations dictate that personal weapons must be stored in the armory while on base so I turned in my weapon and filed the appropriate paperwork with the armory as well as with the school commandant. I was very disturbed when yesterday I was informed that the commandant has decided that I will not be allowed to draw my weapon from the armory until my permanent departure from the base. Am I wrong to be VERY frustrated by this?

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40SW
August 17, 2007, 08:50 AM
Its a good thing you didnt bring a Colt Commander. :):banghead:
but seriously, I am 100% in agreement with your frustration. I guess only officers and MPs are allowed sidearms on duty. , which is unfair, but then again, as a firearms instructor and CWP holder, I can't bring my ccw into a library, courthouse, hospital, postoffice, bar, etc. Life aint fair, but I am 100% behind your frustration. Its wrong and insulting.

HankB
August 17, 2007, 08:51 AM
And of course, they didn't tell you any of this before you checked in your pistol, right?

Do the regulations state you MAY check the weapon out when leaving base? Unless weapon checkout is at the commandant's discretion, then is it possible that the commandant, himself, may be in violation of a standing order?

I guess they now want to ensure your loyalty by seizing your property and holding it hostage . . . you might ask him if that's the case.

ctrout
August 17, 2007, 08:58 AM
They didn't tell me before I checked it in and I didn't expect to carry it on duty. I was seeking permission to exercise my constitutional right as a citizen and sign my pistol out this weekend for legal carry off base. It is never legal to carry concealed on base (federal property) so I wouldn't even consider that.

AirForceShooter
August 17, 2007, 09:18 AM
You think it's just the AF?
It's every branch. The DOD in general is anti-gun.

AFS

Correia
August 17, 2007, 01:03 PM
L&P is closed. This is for Activism, so please, only posts that help the original poster come up with ideas and a plan for action.

tenbase
August 17, 2007, 01:38 PM
I just returned from a very successful combat mission in Afghanistan where I had tactical control of 15 of America's finest aircraft weapons loaders.

how can this be, I separated 7 years ago :cool:

yep, its not just AF either man. buddy in the Marines had a nearly identical situation occur. its irony on the order of Washington DC being one of the most tyrannical jurisdictions in the country.

what can ya do.

ctrout
August 17, 2007, 01:38 PM
Update. I have addressed it through my chain of command which is the only appropriate method and my flight leader told me that the commandant is currently reconsidering her decision pending verification of the credentials that I provided. I feel guilty until proven innocent but at least I'm closer to justice now. I should have the final answer by C.O.B. today.

Scorpiusdeus
August 17, 2007, 01:58 PM
Welcome to the military sport. You don't have the same rights you are fighting to protect. You did agree to this ya know.

And since we're here, what is "tactical control" of personnel vs say you led or were in charge of same?

alsaqr
August 17, 2007, 02:15 PM
Few, if any, military bases allow carry of personal handguns by servicemembers or visitors. Ft. Sill, OK is like that; concealed carry is not allowed. i am an Army retiree. In order to shoot and hunt on Ft. Sill; the guns that i take there must be registered on base. i do not have a problem with that. Many of my guns are not registered on base because they are never taken there.

Jimmie
August 17, 2007, 02:37 PM
And since we're here, what is "tactical control" of personnel vs say you led or were in charge of same?
That sounds like fluff you'd write on a performance report. :scrutiny:

You're on an AETC base and you're surprised they've got gay policies? Good on ya for taking it up your chain, though. Hopefully they change their mind.

wideym
August 17, 2007, 03:31 PM
You don't become a commandate without aways covering your ass.
If a student has an incident involving a firearm he nominaly has under his control, he could kiss his carrer goodbye. So he instutes a no privately owned weapons will be released until you leave policy. I'm suprised you were not read the riot act just by bringing it with you. Most tdy orders specifiy no privately owned weapons allowed at all.

When I was my units armorer at Ft. Campbell you had to jump through all sorts of hoops to draw your personal weapon from the arms room. You had to submit a request in writing 48 hours in advance to the Company commander or XO for their approval. It had to state when you wanted to draw it, for how long, where you took it, and when you were returning it.

The former armorer was a complete a-hole who would'nt let you draw it on the weekend, even though he lived in the barracks.

41magsnub
August 17, 2007, 04:13 PM
This policy is the entire reason I elected to not bring any guns with me while I was in the Army. I do not like not having any control over that much personal property.

My guns got to have a nice vacation in my parents gun safe and come out for hunting season only for 4 years.

HankB
August 17, 2007, 07:48 PM
. . . my flight leader told me that the commandant is currently reconsidering her decision . . . I see part of the problem right there . . .

But rather than go on an off-topic rant about the suitability of members of the fair sex being placed in command of men training for COMBAT, I'll ask - is there some way you can store your pistol off base? Perhaps in a safety deposit box at a local bank? Or are there any storage companies in town with 24-hour access to their facilities?

ctrout
August 18, 2007, 08:14 PM
It seems that some folks are misunderstanding what I have tried to communicate in the original post. I am not trying to carry a weapon around ON BASE. I am not attempting concealed carry ON BASE. I am here for 6 weeks so I brought my pistol with me on the 1600 mile drive. I carried it legally in my vehicle as every state I traveled through recognizes my Idaho permit. I am trying to sign the weapon out for legal concealed carry OFF BASE. As for keeping it at an off base facility, that's a moot point now because now that I have signed it into the armory, I am unable to withdraw it again without permission and it appears that permission will not be granted until I return to my base in Idaho. And no, I did not sign up or agree to being disarmed. I have a safe full of guns at home station that I can take out whenever I want to without anyone's permission and put as many rounds as I want through them. I was at the mercy of the individual who won't grant permission only because I had no other legal options for storage when I arrived. There are students in my class who are stationed here where the school is who do not have to ask anyone's permission because they have a house in which to store their weapons.

SigfanUSAF
August 18, 2007, 08:30 PM
ctrout, as a USAF veteran, I strongly advise you to edit out the central portion in the top paragraph of your post.

I feel your pain, it wasn't quite as strict pre-war, but it seemed to be dependant on the mood of the commandant on any given day.

USAFrenegade
August 18, 2007, 10:10 PM
ctrout, as security forces I can tell you this if you go to the armory during normal business hours, and fill out a 1297 form and you can check out your wepon for upto 24hrs. if they tell you they cant do that talk to THEIR flight chief.

JamesM
August 18, 2007, 11:52 PM
is there some way you can store your pistol off base? Perhaps in a safety deposit box at a local bank? Or are there any storage companies in town with 24-hour access to their facilities?

I agree. Few banks have access to safety deposit boxes 24hrs/day but you could just rent a small storage unit.

sandy4570
August 19, 2007, 12:51 AM
Staff sergent ctrout
Don't feel bad about the USAF being anti gun , I was in the army and they locked up my M1 Garand and Mini14 for years and draw that weapon out requiered more paper work than getting the hummvee off the motor pool.
My friend and I resorted to keep our weapon off base by pawn them for $5 (I still need to register them with the provost marshall) .When we had money for ammo we would paid the pawn shop $5 and got our rifle and pistol back. The pawn shop I used was the one that sold guns and vhs tapes to me so they knew me and I could trust them . I don't know if you want to go to that route because your Kimber is sure cost more than $5
You can keep the gun with someone who live off base too but it is more risky because of the BE

sandy4570
August 19, 2007, 01:07 AM
On a second thought, may be it is a bad idea to pawn your prized Kimber in the pawn shop especially if you are a new guy in town . It took me a few years to trust any of the pawn broker and proved to them that I am financially responsible and a good customer.

Green Lantern
August 19, 2007, 03:19 PM
The War aside, maybe if the Armed Forces didn't force soldiers to give up basic rights that they risk their lives to let the REST of us have, they wouldn't have to worry as much about meeting recruitment quotas - ?

Cosmoline
August 19, 2007, 03:37 PM
This is a fascinating business, and it goes beyond the AF. Indeed in some ways it's a very, very old notion that goes back long before the current gun debate. The officer class was literally the upper class and the enlisted and NCO's were lower class. The notion that lower class men, even soldiers, would be allowed to have sidearms was anathema to this scheme. They had rifles, and those rifles could only be loaded or utilized under precise orders from the officer class. That's what drill is all about. The officer's sidearm was used primarily to enforce discipline by killing any men who got out of line. It has virtually no use in combat, Hollywood aside. In contrast to the rifleman's rifle, it's always kept loaded and ready to fire. You can even see this when armies surrender. The officers are sometimes allowed to keep their sidearms because it's a way to keep the men in line. When Lee surrendered to Grant, for example.

Even today, the notion of an enlisted man with a personal weapon, esp. a sidearm, rubs a lot of general officers the wrong way. They assume there will be "trouble" if the rabble are allowed to have personal firearms. Though of course these days the concerns are particularly bizarre given the amount of firepower enlisted men frequently have at their command.

ctrout
August 19, 2007, 09:29 PM
The commandant is enlisted. Only three pay grades separate her from myself. And just as an aside, Sandy4570, the AF rank for an E-6 is Technical Sergeant. Staff Sergeant is an E-5 in the AF.;)

sandy4570
August 19, 2007, 11:38 PM
The commandant is enlisted. Only three pay grades separate her from myself. And just as an aside, Sandy4570, the AF rank for an E-6 is Technical Sergeant. Staff Sergeant is an E-5 in the AF.

Technical Sergent Ctrout , I don't mean to demote you .:) I hope you get your Kimber out from the armory .How do you plan to store your Kimber ? I could not imagine keeping $1,200 pistol in the locker that is not secure ,do you have seperate quarter or do you have to share with other personel ?

bogie
August 20, 2007, 02:50 AM
The military is not anti-gun.

It just assumes that _all_ service members are of equal intelligence - the lowest common denominator.

Same reason they didn't let us have sharp pointy objects in basic... They figured it'd result in sick call.

If you're on post, and need a weapon, then I'm sure some will be available. If you need to travel somewhere, tell the CO that you need to boomstick, and you're taking it off post.

ctrout
August 20, 2007, 10:51 PM
S4570, I don't mind keeping it in the armory when I'm not using it. That's probably the safest place for it because I'm in a hotel and I can't take it to work with me. I would just like to have the same off-duty recreational access to it that I would at home station. I think the headache here is because it's a training base and the training command is used to brand-new, straight from basic. They aren't trusting a 36 byear old, 14 year veteran NCO. oh well, live and learn.

ctrout
August 24, 2007, 07:18 PM
Three days short of a month and they have finally allowed me permission to have access to my pistol again. I'll be returning to my base in two weeks so I'm glad that I'll at least have an opportunity for some recreational opportunity while I'm here. Would have been nice to have had a bit MORE opportunity though.

dpesec
August 24, 2007, 07:47 PM
Hey I feel your pain, but remember in the military we're not under the Constitution, but the UCMJ.
It's the actual base commander that decides these rules.

I was thankful I was in the reserves and an O3 to boot.

jkingrph
August 24, 2007, 07:51 PM
Back in early '70s when a young single O-3, living off base I was threatned with a mandatory move to the BOQ. My justification for staying off base was my small collection of firearms. It worked.

Nomad101bc
August 24, 2007, 07:54 PM
Its because too many enlisteds do stupid things like hide rounds in their boots then load thier M16's and try to kill the first sargents. True story I heard from a reservist. The private that did it needless to say was dishonerably discharged.

Officers go through a far more involved screening process and yes they are supposed to be the upper class.

ctrout
August 27, 2007, 08:21 PM
Oh, I get it now. I'm a substandard piece of crap that can't be trusted in spite of my 14 years of distinguished service and extensive background investigation (TS). I feel honored that the upper class would take the time to respond to the post of a surf. Thank you. I'm not worthy.

James T Thomas
August 27, 2007, 09:06 PM
"Ctrout:"

I had been "upper class" ages ago, and at that time we had access to some very nice Hi Standard 22 auto's that were available for only signing out; 82nd Airborne Div. I did borrow those; one for me and one for my friend to go hunting and target shooting. No questions asked. The armorer even cleaned them upon return! Available to any rank.

Now, your situation. It's disgusting, I agree. And if I were king, then...
I too have served under say "Career minded officers" who were condescending and arrogant. I could not stand it either.

I'm surprised however that the USAF would oppress you like that, as I witnessed a more "working" and congenial attitude between the commissioned and enlisted in my experiences with them.

It brings to mind the Pearl Harbour debacle that has all but been forgotten.
There had been warnings prior to the attack, and the military had even been placed on alert for it. Still, the Army commander Gen. W. Short?) as well as the Navy commander had kept the munitions locked up tight; so tight, that the defenders were helpless for too long of a time.

That was long ago, and another situation. Or was it?
It seems that same attitude or similar one is in force in far too many places today.

The unreasoning control over trained, dedicated, experienced, and loyal military, regardless of rank, depicts not a distrust, as it seems, but rather,
a placing of career advancement -record and reputation, above the integrity and dignity of entrusted and responsible men under the command of an undeserving commander.

I served in a combat zone where on rare occasion "fragging" happened, and there was not restriction or disarmament enforced.
When the NCO in Iraq had murdered one of his chain of command in Iraq, again, there was no orders to disarm. Had some of the men in the area been armed, as they should have, this murderer would have been stopped.

It's too bad that all those now serving are not under the command of officers who have had the "experience" of combat and the understanding and appreciation for all ranks that it brings.

Your sacrifice and effort on behalf of our nation are appreciated.
By most, but not all.

sandy4570
September 1, 2007, 06:42 PM
Oh, I get it now. I'm a substandard piece of crap that can't be trusted in spite of my 14 years of distinguished service and extensive background investigation (TS). I feel honored that the upper class would take the time to respond to the post of a surf. Thank you. I'm not worthy.

Technical Sergent Ctrout
I can feel your frustration . My CO refused to sign the provost marshall registration form for my Ruger GP100 on the ground that he did not trust me with the gun and I had too many guns in the armsroom already.
I hope you get your Kimber out from the arms room and spend time at the range-good Kimber should not be left alone with all those M16 and M9 in the arms room .

748
September 4, 2007, 04:44 AM
When I came back form japan there was no way I was living on base.
"too many guns in the armsroom already" ummmm, yea kind of like that.
I don't even want to think about what their thoughts on smokeless powder and NFA (title 2 & 3) firearms would be.
I think it would be some where between :scrutiny: and :what::cuss: .

Sam
September 15, 2007, 10:38 PM
legally they cannot prevent you frm withdrawing from teh armory and transporting off the installation.
If you need so more help/info, PM me.

Sam

phaed
September 15, 2007, 10:54 PM
you aren't wrong to be frustrated. and, this is not all that uncommon. all too often, some soldier/marine/zoomie/swabby does something stupid, and commanders make policy to correct this that screw over everyone else.

we have very restrictive gun laws on most bases put in by military leadership, aside from federal restrictions already in place.

that being said, it's part of what we raised our hands for. we can be frustrated. we can present our case and can ask for waivers or exception to policy...or even ask them to change the policy. but, that's it. we must salute and drive on with whatever their decisions are.

Clyde Nocar
September 17, 2007, 12:51 PM
CTROUT: THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!! You have my heart-felt gratitude. I share your frustration & anger.

daehawc
September 17, 2007, 05:19 PM
I understand your frustration but just wanted to let you know it's happening to a lot of us. I'm a Marine 1stLt and had to fight for 7 months for me and my buddy just to be able to check in our weapons. Then we had the same issue about getting half of your chain of command to sign off before you wanted to use it. Hell, I even worked in the Armory for a few months in Quantico and found it easier to leave my 1911 off base in a secure lock box. As far as officers carrying weapons on base as some people have stated. I've have never seen that authorized and I've tried for it at my last 4 commands. The only exception is when on duty but officers and SNCO's alike are issued weapons for that. Good luck and keep fighting. Also if you ever find out how to get a federal carry permit keep me in the loop. I could use one of those!

cpttango30
September 17, 2007, 05:29 PM
Shoot my first wife left me and my CO MADE me put my guns in the arms room. The Armour and his chronies nicked scratched and dinged my rifles and pistols into worthlessness. But when I complained they said so what you don't need them anyways. I had some very nice rifles at the time. They came back and were a rusted heap. I had a sweet Ruger m77vt in 220 Swift. The barrle was blue when it went in when I got them out it was rust. They would not let me in to clean them or do anything with them.

The military is so anti-gun it is not funny. At fort dix I was told that if I brought firearms on post I would be arrested but I had to bring them on post to the police station to register them. Go figure.

Horrido
September 17, 2007, 06:51 PM
Sorry friend, the military is not a democracy, democratic or in the habit of seeking a consensus or votes before it acts. A service member's rights are different, and as it should be. Although I sympathize with your current situation, I would side with the military as to placing your firearm in the armory until you have finished the course. Off post, I see no problem for a service member carrying a permitted firearm with a CCW. On a military post...no! Firearm goes into armory.

Anyway, I am sure that I will get FLAK over my post. In closing, thank you for your service to our country, and the things that you have given up that so many take for granted.:)

NRA member. CCW holder (in state of California no less!), C&R lic. 20 years regular Army and Army National Guard, retired E-7. Scouts out.

Double Naught Spy
September 17, 2007, 08:51 PM
Now on to the meat of my post. I just returned from a very successful combat mission in Afghanistan where I had tactical control of 15 of America's finest aircraft weapons loaders. Upon my return, I was ordered to report to Goodfellow NCO Academy for a 6 week leadership class. The class is in Texas and my cwp is honored here so I brought my Kimber with me. Regulations dictate that personal weapons must be stored in the armory while on base so I turned in my weapon and filed the appropriate paperwork with the armory as well as with the school commandant. I was very disturbed when yesterday I was informed that the commandant has decided that I will not be allowed to draw my weapon from the armory until my permanent departure from the base. Am I wrong to be VERY frustrated by this?

No, but you seem to be naive about such matters. This is partially apparent in your presentation about your long career and recent mission success. Since when would either dictate what rules should or should not be applied to you? They don't. So the issue at hand would be whether or not commander actually has the authority to restrict access to your personal firearm in the manner described. If not, then you have reason to file a complaint. Your commander would not be the first to misapply, misinterpret, or overstep rules.

The military is not anti-gun.

Agreed. They are just not big on personal rights as are recognized in the civilian sector.

Grizzly Adams
November 10, 2007, 09:55 PM
TSgt Ctrout, unless the regs. have changed, you are entitled to check you personal weapons out of the armory at anytime during posted hours when you are off duty and going off base. If your commandant does not come around go see the JAG. This is not AF policy. This is her dictate!

Navy joe
November 10, 2007, 10:48 PM
Two solutions: One, I was off to a six week course in Florida and I took an AR-15 and a 1911. No way I was driving 700 miles on 01/01/2000 unarmed. I got there, found a self-storage place two blocks from the base gate, ignored their silly policy about no firearms and rented a storage locker for my two guns and later my electric frying pan that the CBQ staff frowned upon.

2nd, start a campaign to get an MWR(Morale, Welfare, and Rec) range at your post. I am blessed to have access to Camp Allen weapons range in Norfolk, it is on the non-secure side of the base(housing area) and you can come and go freely with guns. I have two lockers that I have the only key for and they are chock full of guns. Never dealt with the stupid post armory, never will.

Crash_Test_Dhimmi
March 1, 2008, 11:16 PM
Not That I have EVER done this, but I would have kept it in a locked case, sans ammo, deep inside the bowels of my cars contraband compartment underneath the trunk, underneath all my other crap that I just moved with, and stayed at the Angelo Inn. But that is me, Not that Ive ever done such a horrible thing.
You need to cross over to the Army.

BTW CTROUT, I hear ya... you and I both know why you were at goodfellow, just as any intelligent person can deduce... and from that deduce other things... But its bad opsec to put your clearance level in any internet post.

I remember some idiot with a "TSECRET" license plate on his beemer while I was there, I Face Palmed myself every time I saw it on the street. Opsec people.

mek42
May 3, 2008, 05:42 PM
I failed MEPS a few years ago and thus have no direct experience with the military. The ideas I have may not be worth following.

First, if following the chain of command does not acheive the desired results, would it be possible to speak with an Inspector General or a JAG personnel? Maybe try phrasing it as, "I didn't think this was how it worked, could you go over the regs with me?"

Maybe find some local gun shops and inquire about the possibility of renting secured storage at their location. If you called in advance, I'm sure some of the owners would be willing to make an appointment for an out-of-hours pick up. Try to find a mom-and-pop store for this as opposed to a large Gander Mountain style establishment.

Pilot
May 3, 2008, 05:55 PM
The officer class was literally the upper class and the enlisted and NCO's were lower class. The notion that lower class men, even soldiers, would be allowed to have sidearms was anathema to this scheme. They had rifles, and those rifles could only be loaded or utilized under precise orders from the officer class. That's what drill is all about.

This is very true and a good historical perspective. My Dad, a dentist, and Captain in the Medical/Dental Corp was called on the carpet and lectured by General Mark Clark about fraternzing with enlisted personal. In Germany, in 1946, he went to a movie and sat with some enlisted personal he knew. That was it, he just sat with them in the theater. The enlisted guys cheered when he and my Mom sat with them. It was a lot more of a class thing then than I think today, but my Dad was just a regular guy and being Medical Corp usually got away with more.

To keep this gun related, he had to carry a 1911A1 as Officer of the Day every few weeks. His only comment to me about it was that it was heavy.

M14/11B
May 3, 2008, 07:10 PM
I was enlisted and stationed in
D.C. area. I got married while in and moved off base to an apartment with my bride. We brought my .22 rifle with us when we moved to the apartment from CA. Mentioned it to a buddy at work one day and my CWO4 Boss had a coniption fit. Said I should register it with the Provost Marshall. This was from a combat veteran with tours in nam and korea.
I almost laughed in his face but maintained. Never registered it either. BTW this was an Infantry outfit, Go figure.

CHAINGUNMASSACRE
May 3, 2008, 08:21 PM
My wife and I vacationed in Ney York City in 2005. At the time, I was still in the reserves, so we stayed CHEAP at Ft. Monmouth,NJ. I was a good soldier, and checked my BHP into the armory, 1st thing upon arriving on base. Being from the midwest, I was totally unprepared for his reaction upon seeing those federal 9bp's in the mag."You can't have those in New Jersey!" he exclaimed. Apparently hollow points are not legal there. Upon re-issuing me my browning he said"Don't get caught with those here!" That's it. I was going to load up with ball, but trying to find handgun ammo in the NYC area, even ball, is like trying to find a river in Kuwait.

hso
May 5, 2008, 11:58 AM
We seem to have wandered OT and there's not much that can be done to change any branch of the armed services practices related to personal firearms.

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