[benewton]

For one reason or another, I'd like to try the AP ammo out of my M1A.

Any idea where I might lay hands on a couple of hundred rounds or so ?

[CWL]

Uh,
True armor-piercing ammo is illegal, or at least restricted ammo for us non LEO/military peeps.

It's not wise to ask for illegal items on the internet.

[45Badger]

AP illegal? It's for sale at every gun show I've been to in the last year.

Maybe surplus is legal, and it's illegal to manufacture new?

[Ian]

I looked into this exact issue. Manufacturing AP is illegal. Selling AP is also illegal - but only if you have an FFL. The black-tip surplus .30-06 is NOT legally AP - it's specifically exempted. So is the .223 SS109/M855. I think .50 BMG is also exempted, but I don't recall seeing the clause that says so.

I never did get a straight answer about whether 'manufacture' meant making bullets of assembling cartridges.

[CWL]

Interesting, had to look it up myself before deciding if I must take foot out of mouth.

Technically, it is not illegal possess the stuff (depending on your State), just no legal way to get any.


Look here:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm


AP ammo is defined as the 'bullet' itself and not the complete cartridge.
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

.308 NATO M61 and SLAP are specifically listed by BATF as bad boys.


There is some confusion of certain ammo -namely the .223 M855/SS109 which has been specifically ruled a non-AP round.

Less-than-reputable dealers will sell certain legal ammo which they claim to be AP, but it isn't. Lots of suckers buying Chinese 7.62x39 junk.

[Art Eatman]

Some manufacturer chambered a single-shot pistol (Thompson Center? Disremember.) in .308. The BATF jumped in and howled that this meant the .308 AP had become the Evil Cop Killer Bullet Pistol Ammo.

Art

[benewton]

I could have sworn I'd see the AP kicking around one gun show or another, but, since I reload everything and wasn't interested, I could have been mistaken.

Now, were I to purchase some 06 M2, pull the slugs, then reload them into commercial cases over a .308 Winchester load, against the listed 7.62 x 51 data, I wouldn't have a NATO AP round, would I?

[Ian]

Yes. I've been told that the .30-06 AP bullets are too long to stabilize well from a normal .308 (1 in 12" twist, IIRC) barrel, but I haven't tried that myself yet.

[Phil in Seattle]

Now, were I to purchase some 06 M2, pull the slugs, then reload them into commercial cases over a .308 Winchester load, against the listed 7.62 x 51 data, I wouldn't have a NATO AP round, would I?

Right you wouldn't have a 7.62 NATO AP round. The 30-06 AP projectile is 163gr the 7.62x51 AP (M61) is 151gr.

I haven't tried the 30-06AP projectile in a 308 or 7.62x51 loading, I have however used them in 300WM loadings.

[benewton]

That should mean that the AP bullet will work fine in the M1A, since I've been playing with 168's forever.

Ah well, just an off the wall thought, related to a local problem, of course, and so not really of a serious nature.

Still, lots of info on arcane matters, so thanks for the support, guys!

[Ian]

I believe the potential problem would be in bullet length, not weight. The .30-06 AP bullets are awfully long, about 1.38 inch. My 150 grain .308 bullets are only about 1.12 inches long.

If anyone knew a place that sold pulled M61 bullets (from 7.62x51) I'd be very interested.

[CWL]

Like I posted above, BATF views the 'bullet' as the illegal AP device, not the completed cartridge.

This makes the M61-AP bullet in .308 not available for legal sale in USA to private party.

That's why 30-06 is the alternative under discussion.

[kotengu]

"30-06AP projectile in a 308 or 7.62x51 loading"

I have - it works great in my 1:12 FAL, and stabilizes just fine. Fun to play with and see what you can penetrate, but that much utility value.

[Ian]

CWL - According to the ATF link you posted, it is legal to own and to sell privately. Or rather, nowhere in there does it say that possession or private sale is illegal. It just defines AP ammo, prohibits its manufacture, importation, and sale by FFLs.

[Phil in Seattle]

WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.

2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
transfer AP ammo.
From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
bullets themselves does

[CWL]

Hey, like I said, it's not illegal to own the stuff. (so please don't lump me in with the antis.)

My question is how can one get it legally? Where did the AP originally come from then?

§ 922(a) It shall be unlawful --
7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition

"any person" encompases more than only licensed dealers, since the exception is for licensed dealers selling to LEO, military and for export only.

[benewton]

I was aware of the twist/projectile length issue, but I thought that it'd be worth playing with for $20 or so. Sounds like it will be.


Given the level of expertise in the LEO ranks, I'd probably be OK simply removing the black tip marking, thus avoiding any questions at all. Too, I'm not manufacturing the bullet, merely reloading the round.

An interesting legal question, I'm sure I'll try to avoid, but, sometimes, you just have to play.


Thanks for the comments.

[Ian]

If you remove the black paint, it would be next to impossible to get caught (assuming that your AP ammo actually is illegal to have and use). Even a magnet test wouldn't be conclusive, considering the steel-plated surplus .308.

[uglygun]

Here's a picture of a 165grn AP bullet next to an old 168grn Vmax VLD(middle) and a 180grain Sierra MatchKing(right), three bullets on the right duh :)

http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/bullets/bulletcomp.jpg

They truely are LONG suckers. And the bullets are the most fun when squirting out the barrel of something truely hot like a 300WinMag or a 300RUM.

[FireInTheHole]

what kind of penetration did/does the original 163gr 30-06 loading offer anyhow?