[fatelk]

I've never been much of a shotgunner. I've duck hunted a few times when I was young (It was OK, but I guess hunting's just not in my blood), but I do enjoy shooting clay targets.

The problem is recoil. I have an old Mossberg 500, and a real nice old Ithaca 37, both in 12 gauge. I also have some problems with my back and neck. A few rounds here and there is no big deal, but a couple boxes at a time shooting clay targets and I'm really regretting it the next day.

I've thought about a 20ga. for some time and now I see the local Bi-Mart has Remington 870's on sale, $20 off and a $30 rebate after that, putting them around $200. I'm tempted to scrape some money together and go get one in 20ga. My question is whether the recoil will be enough less so that I will not be hurting so bad after an afternoon of busting clay.

I love that old Ithaca, would love to find it's twin in 20ga, but for the money I think the 870 looks good right now. When My kids get older they could learn with it too.

I thought I might try to get some input from some of you more experienced shotgunners before going down and buying one.

[zinj]

Since a 20 gauge 870 is built on a smaller 20 gauge frame the recoil is not that much less than a 12 gauge. I would look for an autoloader, which will reduce felt recoil significantly, especially in 20 gauge (if it is in your budget).

Maybe take a look at the Browning BPS too. It is a heavier 20 gauge pump with Ithaca style bottom ejection and a Mossberg style tang safety.

[chris in va]

Get a Knox CompStock for it. Feels like a mild 20ga and cheaper than a new gun.

[RNB65]

The weight of a 12ga will do a better job of soaking up recoil than the lighter weight of a 20ga. My recommendation is to buy a 12ga Remington 1100 auto loader, install a Limbsaver recoil pad on it, and shoot either 1 1/8oz light target loads (2 3/4dr) or 1oz target loads.

For a little more recoil reduction, wear a Browning clay shooting vest with a REACTOR gel pad in it.

[Steve C]

+1 on the advice from RNB65. The Ithica and Mossberg are light weight shotguns which results in higher recoil than a heavier shotgun and gas operated semi auto's are softer shooting yet.

[mnrivrat]

Several factors to consider in the 12ga. vs 20ga.

I also have a back problem and I shoot a 20ga. The first factor is the weight of the gun. Handling and swinging a lighter gun is easier on the back and usualy 20ga. guns are lighter.

As far as recoil, that depends on payload and powder charge. If you think you need to shoot the same amount of shot out of a 20ga. as you do out of a 12ga. , and at the same energy level, then you will get more recoil because the gun is lighter.

With a reduction in payload however, the 20ga. will reduce the recoil .

Auto's will always shoot lighter than pumps wether 12 or 20.

[fatelk]

It wasn't easy to justify the $200 for the 870 to my wife, more for an auto or nicer gun is not really an option right now. I would love to get an 1100 20ga, may have to save up if I decide against the 870.

I've had the old Moss 500 for many years, then bought the Ithaca about ten years ago. I was surprised to find that even though the Ithaca is a little lighter and had no recoil pad like the Mossberg, felt recoil seemed less. I guess it just fit better or something. I put a Decelerator pad on it and it's really not bad at all, though it still gets to me after a couple boxes. I tend to buy the cheapest, lightest loaded shells I can find. If the 870 20ga doesn't have noticeably less recoil than my Ithaca 12ga, I should probably forget about a new gun right now.

Do those Knoxx stocks really work? I've heard of them, but I'm pretty traditional in my taste in firearms. I strongly prefer nice wood and blued steel, occasionally stainless. Practicality is nice but aesthetics are important too.

What about the 870 with a real good pad? I've always used the Decerator on my rifles; is there something better for shotguns?

[Dave McCracken]

Fatelk, I'm 60, with herniated T4 and 5 discs, a pinched nerve in my neck and some ripped muscles. I can handle recoil but prefer not to.

And, there's rotator cuff issues and arthritis also.

My field guns are all 870s, running from 7 lbs up. My main clays gun is 8 lbs on the nose. For clays, I shoot 7/8 and 1 oz loads. Zeroing and practicing with slugs sees me wearing a PAST pad.

For less recoil, use a heavy gun and lighter loads.

The guns fit me, they've good pads and I've good form. 150 rounds at trap, skeet, wobble or SC leave me tired but not hurting,

It's been many years since my shoulder area had been sore from kick.

The Decellerator is a good pad for shotguns. Others I like include the KickEez Magnum and Limbsavers.

A tip. Adding a good pad and leaving it full size will look a but odd but the extra surface area really spreads the energy out and helps ease the kick.

HTH, sing out if there's any quesitons....

[Chupacabra]

Do those Knoxx stocks really work? I've heard of them, but I'm pretty traditional in my taste in firearms. I strongly prefer nice wood and blued steel, occasionally stainless. Practicality is nice but aesthetics are important too.

They do. I've had back problems and the SpecOps stock I have on my 870 has helped a lot. When combined with reduced recoil loads they make a 12guage really really easy to shoot. I can also shoot slugs and full power buck shot all day and not have any pain the following day.

[atblis]

A 12 gauge loaded with the same projectile mass, and the same velocity will have less recoil than a 20 gauge firing the same load. Basically, you need a lighter load, not a similar gun in 20.

I'd either find/reload some 7/8 loads at 1150ish, and try that.
if that is still too much try these
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/shotdetail.aspx?symbol=AA12FL&bn=6&use=21

If that is still too much you should try a 12 gauge autoloader. I think there's a big difference between a pump and an autoloader. A lot of that has to do with how light the pumps are, and the ability of the autoloader to lengthen the impulse. A good target autoloader will have a long barrel, and not be particularly light.

You could try adding a recoil pad and some mass
I like the limbsaver stuff
http://www.limbsaver.com/Products/Firearms/Precision_Fit_Recoil_Pad.aspx
and a recoil reducer (really just lead or mercury). It's the mass that matters.
http://www.midwestgunworks.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/40039_2.jpg

Yeah, I know it's manly to use a pump, but I'd ditch it and get an autoloader.

[ArchAngelCD]

I shoot a lighter load 2 3/4" 12 ga shell when blowing up clays. It's a lot easier on the back and shoulder. Remington 12 ga 2 3/4" STS Target Load have a 2 3/4 Dram Eq. instead of 3 Dram and above like Game and Sport loads. Winchester AA Light Target and Ultra Light Target loads are also very good. I buy both when they are on sale. You can shoot several hundred in a day and still shoot the next day. I doubt you would be able to shoot back to back days with standard loaded rounds.

[Geno]

Don't shoot lighter; shoot smarter. Get a Remington 870 Tactical stock. They are also made for Mossberg, etc. They aren't made by Remington, made for them.

Doc2005

[ArchAngelCD]

Why not shoot lighter? There's nothing wrong with a Tactical Stock but it's a lot more expensive than just using different ammo, ammo that won't cost you more than the other ammo available. IMO, using lighter ammo is smart.

[fatelk]

You've all convinced me. I've decided against the 870 20ga., think I'll just get some light loads for the old Ithaca for now, and be on the lookout for a nice old 1100 or similar in the future. I'll also look into a shooting vest.

I appreciate the advice regarding recoil-reducing stocks but I think I'll stick with what I have for now. If I get a chance to try one sometime I very well might change my mind though.

A side note; after church just a little while ago a friend just told me he bought an 870 youth in 20ga. for his son yesterday and they are going out to shoot this afternoon, invited me along. Looks like I'll get to try one out for myself. Seeing how none of you all said "Buy the 20, they kick less", I'm not expecting to change my mind again.

Thank you for all the input.

[fatelk]

Well, I had a good time this afternoon. We busted a lot of clay, shot the old M1, a 45-70, and some pistols.

I really liked that little 870 youth 20ga. I actually don't think it was any lighter than my Ithaca (the Ithaca is a light gun), and I don't think it kicked as bad, not bad at all. He said it cost $230 after the sale and rebate, for the youth model with the laminated stock. It would be about right for my wife, and the kids when they are older. It shot real good for me.

I still might hold out for an autoloader. No need to get in a hurry.

[g.willikers]

Taming the 12 gauge:
Add a really good pad, and a gel shoulder pad, fill the stock with lead, (there's room for up to 1 1/2 lbs in a hollow synthetic stock) and use 7/8 oz. light target loads.
A world of difference.
The lead in the stock also helps improve balance, especially with a full magazine.
Hope this helps others as much as it has me.
The old 12 gauge is back in action and it didn't cost hardly nuttin', either.

[skeeter1]

A 12 or 20 guage shell throwing 1-1/8oz of shot at 1100fps will produce an equal amount of recoil. In general, 20-guage guns are built on lighter frames, so the felt recoil is actually going to be worse.

I'm no spring chicken myself, and recoil was beginning to be a problem. I fitted my favorite trap gun with a recoil pad and switched to 1oz loads of #8 shot. My scores went up, my pain went down, and I could still shoot my beloved SKB doubles. I'd call that a win any way you look at it. Try that before you shell out for a 20... it might work for you, too!

[MCgunner]

A 20 gauge 870 is ligher recoil than a 12. It might be lighter built, but I had one and it recoiled a lot less than any 12. I shot a lot of dove and ducks with that gun.

I'll echo the 20 gauge gas gun, Remington 1100. Get an autoloader and live happy.

[g.willikers]

Reducing recoil the cheapskate way, by changing the way you stand and shoot.

The effect of recoil is greatly reduced if we stand more square to the target, with the shoulders even, rather than the classic kind of sideways stance,
Standing square to the target can also help in quick follow ups and improving accuracy.
This stance will change the effective stock length, though, relative to the more classic stance.
Works for rifle and pistol, too.

[MCgunner]

The effect of recoil is greatly reduced if we stand more square to the target, with the shoulders even, rather than the classic kind of sideways stance,

That works fine in the sanitary conditions of the range, but often when you're sitting on your dove stool, or you're standing 6" deep in muck in a pot hole, you can't always square off to the target. In the first place, you don't know where the target is going to come from next, and then you're stuck in the mud or sitting on your stool when it DOES come. I don't think I've been on a duck hunt that I haven't had to fire over my off side shoulder at a speeding teal or something. This is where skeet range theory falls on its face. Practical shotgunning is not always sanitary. :D

That said, most grown men ought to be able to hold up to a 12 gauge 3" steady diet if the shotgun fits properly. Proper fit will reduced perceived recoil. However, a 20 is still easier to put up with and a gas gun is MUCH easier. My 12 gauge gas gun is SWEET. :D

BTW, I've been convinced both here by the gurus of shotgunning and by actual experience patterning a new 20 gauge Spartan that 7/8 ounce loads in 20 gauge are best for best patterns. Use decent ammo like Winchester AA and leave the bargain stuff at walmart. It'll pay dividends on the pattern board and in the field.

[ArmedBear]

I was shooting pigeons at a feed lot (the owner wants them dead) the other day, in between doves that we were bagging. Those things fly all over the place, and a lot faster than they look.

The only way you never DID shoot was square. Birds weren't cooperative.:)

A few things...

As MC says, fit is key.

Also, a nice pad like a Limbsaver, Pachmayr Decellerator, Kick-Eez, etc. can really keep the shoulder bruising down. Sorry if I didn't mention your favorite. Please add it if I didn't. People have their preferences, but all of the above prevent shoulder bruising.

A light 20 can kick like a mule. Often, the stock is slimmer, too. If you have a hard buttplate, it can smash against your clavicle. Not good.

I love my little 20, though. It's got a thin Pachmayr on it. That's all it takes. Just avoid the hard buttplate and make sure the gun fits you. It's not a duck gun by any means, though.

On a 12, I like the Limbsaver. Or on my old 1100, I have a hard buttplate. The gas gun REALLY soaks up recoil. If you've got more money than you know what to do with, the Benellis with the elastomer stock inserts and buttpad are really bouncy, but they don't hurt at all.

Many will say that this stuff is not necessary. But like MC says, the field is not the range, and at odd shooting angles, perfect gun fit is just hypothetical. A little cushion goes a long way, IMO.

[MCgunner]

I fitted a Pachmayr pad to my 20 gauge side by side yesterday. I didn't really need it for recoil, the thing ain't bad even with slugs, borders on being obnoxious with 3" steel, though, at least firing at a pattern board. But, the thing is way short as it came, not enough pull length. I put a slip on on it for dove hunting and it was perfect, so I went ahead and got a permanent one and fitted it. The pad will be appreciated with 3" stuff if I take it teal hunting and the fit is MUCH better now. I think it could still use a little more drop, but it's fine as is. It felt like an SKS with that short pull length if you've ever shouldered an SKS, well, a Norinco one anyway.

[g.willikers]

Here's a bunch of stuff on shotguns, including a series on stock fit, via podcasts.
http://www.shotgunreport.com/Radio/Radio.html