Im thinking of downgrading from 45ACP to 40S&W...


PDA






JLStorm
August 18, 2007, 03:35 PM
Well here is the deal I have 2 main carry pistols one is a full size one is a compact and I am thinking of adding a mid size pistol to the mix for those days that I dont want the big boy and dont need such deep concealment as a sub compact. My full size is a 45acp HK USP that holds 12 rounds and is pretty comfortable to carry other than its weight. My sub compact is a 40S&W HK P2000SK. I will be getting something to fill the gap in size, for a few different reasons none of which are really important for this conversation.

Now, I never thought I would say this, but I am thinking of going with another 40S&W because its lighter weight and getting much cheaper to shoot factory carry ammo especially with the 27% increase federal and CCI plan by 2008. I only have one arm for a number of months due to a serious injury, and I may consider reloading plinking ammo after I am better, but even so the price of 45 is still higher, and I wont be reloading carry ammo.

So anyway, I will still train with my .45 and I will carry it when I want my full size, but I will shoot more and plink with the .40's. I will also use the .40's for competitions and training classes where thousands of rounds are required because it saves money in ammo and will allow me to train with the sizes of pistols I tend to carry more often lately.

Now, I KNOW Im going to get all the 1911 fanatics telling me how you carry a full size daily and it works for you. I have several 1911's and I do not carry them anymore due to personal choice, please dont try to convert me in this conversation.

If you enjoyed reading about "Im thinking of downgrading from 45ACP to 40S&W..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Bilt4Comfort
August 18, 2007, 03:52 PM
Is there a question in there somewhere?

JLStorm
August 18, 2007, 04:16 PM
Is there a question in there somewhere?


LOL, ya...I didnt state it very well though I guess.

I am having trouble with the thought of going from 45 to 40 because I feel 45 is a better man stopper, but I can afford train more and carry 40 more comfortably. I also shoot 40 better one handed which I will have to do for a number of months. When I carry a 40 now, I dont feel under gunned, but I have carried 45acp for years and it certainly has superior ballistics, but like I said, Im going to be able to train with .40 more, especially considering some of these training classes require 2500 rounds of ammo, especially once these forcasted price increases come into effect.

Kimber1911_06238
August 18, 2007, 04:18 PM
you aren't giving up much if anything by going from .45 to .40 S&W. don't worry about it, choose the pistol that you want

gp911
August 18, 2007, 04:29 PM
In a gunfight you won't be thinking about what caliber you have, you'll be thinking "Hit! Hit! Please hit!!!" If you shoot .40 about as well, just get one and enjoy it. We worry too much about things, in the end we have much less control than we would like to think. I have a .45, had a .40, wouldn't feel undergunned either way.

gp911

jpwilly
August 18, 2007, 04:55 PM
I carry the Taurus PT145 Mil Pro (3rd Gen) in 45ACP but a 40 would be a good choice too. Get what you can stay proficient with. I reload my practice ammo on a Lee Classic Turret Press to keep cost down but CCI Brass Case 230gr FMJ ammo at Wally World is $10.97 for a box of 50rnds. I shoot that and reload the brass.

boredelmo
August 18, 2007, 04:58 PM
As the THR saying goes, Go with what works for you. Seems like a .40 works better. Besides some good Ranger or Gold dots won't be lacking in power. And now most likely you'll have more rounds per gun.

wally
August 18, 2007, 05:07 PM
I prefer the .40 in sub 4" barrel lengths for better penetration. I don't see enough difference in ammo costs between .45 & .40 to argue about beyond the "deals" in "police surplus" JHP which have been most common in .40S&W these past few years but seem to be drying up.

Reloading .45 is a bit easier, but free or cheap .40 brass is easier to find.

Its a wash, IMHO choose the gun first caliber second.

--wally.

briang2ad
August 18, 2007, 05:48 PM
and:

Cheap brass
Cheaper and more available deals on premium HPs
Better deals on practice ammo. (Here $10 for 50 40, $13 for 45).
More mag capacity
Might get something easier to carry - BHP? (Nice and slim).

JLStorm
August 18, 2007, 06:18 PM
Might get something easier to carry - BHP? (Nice and slim).


If I go with the .40 Im getting a P2000 because its the same exact platform and lever controls as the p2000sk that I already carry, just in a larger package. This will make practicing with and switching between the guns much more seamless for me.

michiganfan
August 18, 2007, 06:20 PM
G23 everyday. 14 rounds and an extra 15 round mag make for 29 rounds in a reasonable weight

22-rimfire
August 18, 2007, 06:21 PM
I still don't see a question? I prefer 40 S&W overall. My favorite 40 is the Glock 23.

Autolycus
August 18, 2007, 06:30 PM
I own a P2000 and a P2000sk in .40 S&W. I traded my 1911 for them. I recommend the P2000 as it is an excellent platform for the .40 S&W, especially with the LEM trigger.

kashton
August 18, 2007, 06:43 PM
"Im thinking of downgrading from 45ACP to 40S&W..."


-- wise choice

Titan6
August 18, 2007, 08:03 PM
I ''Downgraded'' several years ago. Have not looked back. No regrets. Sometimes I get the old .45s out and shoot them and then wonder why I didn't switch sooner.

The .45ACP is a great round. So is the .40 S&W. You really can't go wrong with either.

fastbolt
August 18, 2007, 11:48 PM
"Downgrading?"

Dunno about that ...

It's still just one of the common centerfire handgun calibers commonly used by LE for defensive purpose, as well as the non-LE public.

I held off on owning a .40 S&W pistol for something like 10 years after the cartridge was introduced ... and that was after first shooting it in a G22 & G23 back in 1990. Interesting, but I was pretty much only interested in .45 ACP & 9mm pistols at that time. (The .45 by choice, in a personally-owned off-duty weapon; and the 9mm by requirement, in an issued weapon. ;) ) Not being required to carry a .40 S&W at that time, I had the luxury to hold off and see what the future revealed for the .40 S&W ...

Sometime around the year 2000 I finally accepted that the .40 S&W had seemingly established itself in the LE field. A number of agencies, among them the CHP, had apparently received good service from the cartridge. It looked like we might be adopting .40 S&W weapons, so I thought I might look around for pistol that appealed to me in that caliber and try one ...

Fast-forward to the present and I own 4 pistols chambered in .40 S&W ... :scrutiny: ... and I've since had occasion to carry a couple of issued pistols chambered in it, as well.

I only own 4 pistols chambered in 9mm. Hmmm. Never expected to own that many of either 9mm or .40 S&W.

I own 8 pistols chambered in .45 ACP, equaling the combined number I own in 9mm and .40 S&W. I've always enjoyed owning and shooting .45 ACP pistols. Started young.

Oddly enough, I carry the 9mm most often off-duty, followed by .40 S&W ... and hardly ever carry one of my .45 pistols anymore. Sort of a reversal from when I was a much younger cop. :eek:

I carried an issued full-size .45 for a while, but when a friend really wanted one of the new .45's, and we were between shipments, I turned mine in so it could be issued to him. It meant a lot to him to receive an issued .45, and what are friends for, anyway? I chose a compact .40 S&W as my issued weapon and was totally satisfied.

Now, oddly enough, someone else whom I respect and have enjoyed working with (and for) for many years has decided he wants to carry a compact .40 S&W instead of a compact .45, but we're out-of-stock of the compact .40's for a while ... Sooooo, I'll be turning in my compact .40 so it can be issued to him, which really pleased him ... and I'll make do with his compact .45 ...

I don't mind. It's just a handgun.

So, bottom line? Obviously I don't have any answers.:neener:

Go with what you consider is best for you and your actual and/or perceived needs.

If it's a personally-owned pistol you only have to please yourself, after all.

FWIW, I still rather miss my previously issued compact 9mm service weapon. If it were still an option I'd return to carrying an issued 9mm tomorrow ... (When it came right down to it I enjoyed the lighter recoil and controllability of the 9mm, even when using the issued RA9TA 127gr +P+ ammunition. ;) )

On a more important note, I wish you well in your recovery. I've also previously been limited to the use of one arm because of a couple of injuries and required surgeries, which in my case were concurrent conditions. Lasted more than a year. It was my dominant hand/arm, too.

Speedy recovery.

Pick something interesting and useful to buy and shoot. Whether it's something similar or something different is up to you. ;)

I can say that owning, and having been issued, weapons in all 3 of the 'common' major calibers has pretty much eliminated my concern regarding the relative differences between them. I don't much care to listen or become involved whenever folks start to become involved in passionate ... or simply strident ... debates or arguments about the 'superiority' of any of them.

I don't really care which of the 3 calibers I may carry as issued weapons, and if I feel like carrying one off-duty, or shooting/practicing with one of them in particular, I simply can choose one from my working collection.

Which doesn't at all begin to explain why my interest in revolvers has been reawakened in the last couple of years, and has resulted in me buying a couple of new J-frames in the last several months. :confused: (I own 4 J-frames, now, too. Must be a coincidence the number 4 keeps popping up. ;) )

dstorm1911
August 19, 2007, 12:26 AM
I'm still looking for the question too....... ya've already decided on make/model of gun and caliber so are ya just leetin us know ya are planning to get a P2000 in .40S&W? :)

JLStorm
August 19, 2007, 02:16 AM
no if I decide to stick with the 45 I will wait for the HK45c to come out some time next year.

Monkeybear
August 19, 2007, 03:02 AM
I've said this many times on this forum and I'll say it again-

When it comes to premium SD ammo, if you ever have to use your firearm in defense of your life and you don't make it through it will not be because you used a .45acp/9mm/.40sw instead of a 9mm/.40sw/.45acp. It will either be because one way or another you were unlucky or unprepared.

You can't do much about your luck but you can most assuredly do something about "unprepared". If you can practice more with the .40sw then I say carry a .40sw.

Also, for what its worth, substantially fewer will argue against the reliability of a HK than that of a 1911.

ArchAngelCD
August 19, 2007, 03:06 AM
JLStorm,
How is carrying a .40 S&W a downgrade from a .45 ACP?

Remington Golden Saber SD Ammo
.40 S&W 180 gr 1015 FPS w/412 FT/LBS of energy
.45 ACP 185 gr 1015 FPS w/423 FT/LBS of energy

Of course with the .45 you can buy 230 gr rounds which aren't available for the .40 S&W in Factory ammo but you can also buy the .40 S&W in a 165 gr round which is rated @ 1150/485. You are giving up nothing if you're happy with a 180 gr bullet.

RyanM
August 19, 2007, 03:37 AM
If you've only got one arm for awhile, unless the remaining arm is a real good'un, you may want to consider going all the way down to 9mm. You don't lose all that much recoil impulse by going down to .40, and many people find the felt recoil of .40 much more unpleasant than .45, since you've got almost as powerful of a round, typically in a smaller, lighter gun.

230 gr @ 850 fps = 0.87 lb-ft/sec recoil
180 gr @ 1000 fps = 0.80 lb-ft/sec recoil
147 gr @ 1000 fps = 0.65 lb-ft/sec recoil

And of course, 9mm is even cheaper to shoot, and you can get a lighter gun without sacrificing controllability.

Personally, I like .40 because it's very nearly as effective as .45 but with a higher mag capacity and/or slimmer grip, and I don't find the recoil objectionable at all. But you do definitely know that something's gone off when you fire it, whereas all of the .45s and 9mms I've fired have recoiled more like pointing the gun into a stiff breeze.

JLStorm
August 19, 2007, 06:06 AM
If you've only got one arm for awhile, unless the remaining arm is a real good'un, you may want to consider going all the way down to 9mm. You don't lose all that much recoil impulse by going down to .40, and many people find the felt recoil of .40 much more unpleasant than .45, since you've got almost as powerful of a round, typically in a smaller, lighter gun.

230 gr @ 850 fps = 0.87 lb-ft/sec recoil
180 gr @ 1000 fps = 0.80 lb-ft/sec recoil
147 gr @ 1000 fps = 0.65 lb-ft/sec recoil

And of course, 9mm is even cheaper to shoot, and you can get a lighter gun without sacrificing controllability.

Personally, I like .40 because it's very nearly as effective as .45 but with a higher mag capacity and/or slimmer grip, and I don't find the recoil objectionable at all. But you do definitely know that something's gone off when you fire it, whereas all of the .45s and 9mms I've fired have recoiled more like pointing the gun into a stiff breeze.

The .40 looses more ftlbs of energy than the 45 as the distance increases, thats where I notice the 45 really shines. And as mentioned the recoil of the 45 is much more pleasant than the 40. Of course, the only 40 I have has a 3.27" barrel and weighs 1.4lbs and the 45s all have a 4.4" barrel or longer and weight substantially more. I can shoot the 40 one handed without an issues, as I have practiced this knowing that I was having some pretty extensive shoulder surgery. The real benefit the .40 has over the .45 is the weight, size, and cost of ammo which is very important to me for a carry gun. Plus the fact that I can consolidate most of my ammo to one caliber which will help in bulk ammo buys.

I do plan on getting into reloading eventually, but I assume that .40 is still cheaper to shoot than 45 when reloading, especially considering that most of the price increases coming around in the next year are do to the recent and future increased costs of materials.

Nameless_Hobo
August 19, 2007, 06:06 PM
You're not giving up enough to worry about it.

JLStorm
August 19, 2007, 06:11 PM
The one thing I will miss is that nice slow rolling recoil of the 45, the 40 is less actual recoil, but it has a big snap and makes follow up shots more difficult.

Nameless_Hobo
August 19, 2007, 06:38 PM
Go with .45, if you like the recoil.
I like .45, but, it's a pistolero's caliber. You have to be willing to pay to get good with it.

amprecon
August 19, 2007, 06:56 PM
Glock 23

Harley Quinn
August 19, 2007, 07:26 PM
Im thinking of downgrading from 45ACP to 40S&W..."


Not a down grade it is an up grade and a good one IMHO :neener:

Lighter shooter, more cap in mag (if in area allowed) better selection of shooters.

HQ

Crunker1337
August 19, 2007, 09:37 PM
In all likelyhood, a .40S&W will be just fine.

If you like it for carry more, go for it. Sure the .45 offers more power, but you won't need that extra power if you can shoot the .40 well (you also have multiple shots if need be).

You don't need the biggest, baddest gun on the block to defend yourself adequately, so I say the .40 is just fine if it suits you more.

Ed from Maine
August 19, 2007, 09:43 PM
You can get a .40 FN Hi Power, new in box, from CDNN, for around $430 right now. Excellent platform for the .40.

RichardB
August 20, 2007, 05:21 PM
If you want less expensive practice ammo go for a 9MM. You can carry Gold Dot +p, CorBon etc for serious work. The 9mm got its bad reputation from military ball ammo, the new JHPs are much more effective. Just food for thought.

davinci
August 20, 2007, 06:01 PM
I haven't been here long, but I've seen about a dozen posts of "45 versus 40" or "40 versus 9mm" as a man stopping round.

I don't have a 40 s&w, never have owned one. I feel it's a solution to a problem that never actually existed, though about a million policeman have them for some reason. The .45acp was a battlefield proven round for half a century before the 40s&w was introduced, the 9mm was also a battlefield proven round in the luger pistol. The 40cal, AFAIK, hasn't seen battle. If it did, I'm sure it would perform pretty well and stop as many men as the 9mm and 45acp of decades prior.

Saying that the 40cal is a replacement for the 45acp is like saying that the .308 replaced the 30-06. There's plenty a WWII veteran who would swear by the 45 and the ought 6 rifle.

My opinion, and this is really not that researched, is that all are equally good rounds to stop someone with, then again even a .22lr can be with good shot placement. If you want cheap go 9mm, and in the highly unlikely event that you're attacked, you're not going to regret having 16 shots in a magazine.

JLStorm
August 20, 2007, 07:14 PM
haven't been here long, but I've seen about a dozen posts of "45 versus 40" or "40 versus 9mm" as a man stopping round.

I don't have a 40 s&w, never have owned one. I feel it's a solution to a problem that never actually existed, though about a million policeman have them for some reason. The .45acp was a battlefield proven round for half a century before the 40s&w was introduced, the 9mm was also a battlefield proven round in the luger pistol. The 40cal, AFAIK, hasn't seen battle. If it did, I'm sure it would perform pretty well and stop as many men as the 9mm and 45acp of decades prior.

Saying that the 40cal is a replacement for the 45acp is like saying that the .308 replaced the 30-06. There's plenty a WWII veteran who would swear by the 45 and the ought 6 rifle.

My opinion, and this is really not that researched, is that all are equally good rounds to stop someone with, then again even a .22lr can be with good shot placement. If you want cheap go 9mm, and in the highly unlikely event that you're attacked, you're not going to regret having 16 shots in a magazine.


I dont buy into the battle proven round statement that so many people make for one simple reason...almost none of us who carry be it private citizens or police use nato rounds. We almost all carry hollow points, which are not allowed in battle. The police and FBI testing means much more to me than battle statistics which are limited to SAAMI nato rounds. which mean standard pressure FMJ.

That being said, I still prefer 45 as my "perfect round" but carrying a 45 for 10 or 15 hours straight can be a lot more of a challange than carrying a 40 due to size, weight, etc. I will never completely give up on 45 though.

Oh and BTW, FBI testing seems to point to a bigger is better conclusion, which would also favor the 45 in the 45 vs 40 debate. http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf at the very end, the statement is basically size matters.

10-Ring
August 20, 2007, 08:04 PM
As a mid-range, I prefer the 9mm. It's the cheapest to shoot and w/ a good defensive load, very effective!
If push came to shove and I had to pick, I'd still go 45 acp because I can shoot it better than the 40 S&W -- it would be close in the HK platforms, but I still prefer the 45 :cool:

critrxdoc
September 9, 2007, 10:25 PM
Nothing wrong with your decision. The .40 is a fine round.

Lonestar49
September 9, 2007, 11:24 PM
...

I wouldn't consider it a step down, but a new direction that may take more time, round-practice wise, to get down, least far more than the 45 cal IMO.

But once down, as mentioned, in most cases, you have a higher round count in the magazine and the back-up magazine, along with IMHO, least speaking for my Beretta Px4 40, 4900 rounds, 100%, no FTF, fire, or jams.. none, more reliability, dependability, peace of mind.

So you'll lose some precious clearing, and rechambering, time (practice) with many of the 45 cal guns out there.. lol

(not with Sigs P220 or P229.. ;) )


Enjoy, it's a great load IMO.


LS

doc2rn
September 9, 2007, 11:24 PM
+1 if it is just for cheaper plinking practice ammo get a 9mm. You can get alot more bang for the buck.

camslam
September 10, 2007, 01:01 AM
Im thinking of downgrading from 45ACP to 40S&W...

Think again. :)

boomstik45
September 10, 2007, 09:37 AM
You're not down-grading, believe me. Down-sizing? Yes. But you're going up in speed, penetration (not always, before .45 proponents freak out) and almost certainly in capacity. Considering how things are these days, I'd rather have more rounds to engage more targets, while maintaining carry comfort. I still love .45, but have learned to love .40. Often times, muzzle energy of .40s is greater than .45s due to their superior velocity. Make sure you carry and use a good bullet design. You won't have a problem.

rkh
September 10, 2007, 12:32 PM
I too am considering picking up a .40 S&W.

I'm looking for a compact frame, ~4" barrel, double stack mag, and a grip that would comfortably fit a person with small hands. Preferably not a Glock.

Any suggestions as to what models I should be considering?

Harley Quinn
September 10, 2007, 12:32 PM
If you have a 45 Glock or a Colt Government you can buy a barrel and do your down sizing that way.

400 Corbon is a 40 cal.:what:
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IVG12.html

Quite a bit of good information in the above article, for any shooter.

:evil:

mavracer
September 10, 2007, 01:05 PM
I'm looking for a compact frame, ~4" barrel, double stack mag, and a grip that would comfortably fit a person with small hands. Preferably not a Glock

CZ or witness

easyg
September 10, 2007, 01:22 PM
The .40S&W is certainly not a step down from the .45ACP....

You get more power and more magazine capacity, and you only lose .05 in diameter.

The recoil is no big deal...if you can handle a 9mm then you can handle a .40.

SammyIamToday
September 10, 2007, 01:28 PM
Just made the same "downgrade" myself and I'm totally happy with it. More capacity, pretty much the same power, and a lighter/smaller package.

I'm not looking back.

Kentak
September 10, 2007, 03:34 PM
It's not a downgrade, just a different choice. Both calibers can be satisfactory stoppers with good load choices. I, *myself,* don't think there are any great advantages in staying with the .45 if the .40 gives you the size and capacity you prefer.

I have a full size Glock 22, and the sub-com 27. The G23 in the middle would be a great gun. Go with the platform of your choice, though.

K

Air,Land&Sea
September 10, 2007, 05:24 PM
I just upsized from .40 S&W to .45 ACP. It was a good death.

HM2PAC
September 10, 2007, 05:40 PM
Learn to reload.

Once you are set-up, you will drastically cut expenses regardless of the caliber. Right now it is costing me around $9 per 100 rds to reload .45ACP.

Ala Dan
September 11, 2007, 05:36 AM
" A 9m/m may not expand, but a .45 ACP is not going to shrink"~! ;)

I'm sticking with the .45 ACP myself, cuz the .40 S&W has too much
muzzle blast and recoil; making the .45 ACP more pleasant too shoot. :D

jeepmor
September 11, 2007, 09:17 AM
I'm looking for a compact frame, ~4" barrel, double stack mag, and a grip that would comfortably fit a person with small hands. Preferably not a Glock

CZ or witness

My FS Witness grip is quite big. My hands are too, so it's not an issue. I would suggest looking at the Taurus Mil pros, Springfield XD, or S&W M&P pistols for smaller grips if my Witness is any indicator.

however, I must state my witness is 10mm, and thinking about that, it's based off the 45 frames, not the 9mm frames the 40 based pistols are built on.

brashboy
September 11, 2007, 11:47 AM
If you go with the .40, I just don't see a BG saying, "Thank God he didn't shoot me with a .45"

22-rimfire
September 11, 2007, 12:54 PM
I believe the 40S&W is one of the best self protection rounds available. You get the benefit of a larger capacity handgun and get most of the power that most feel the 45 ACP delivers. When the 40 S&W was introduced, it was a no brainer for me. I like the Glock 23 quite a bit if you feel you can conceal it. It is certainly my choice for defensive combat (riots, civil disturbances, natural disasters, home defense in an auto, etc.). Been looking at some of the Kahr's lately and am considering one of the pocket sized ones in probably 40 S&W. For shooting, the Glock 23 is hard to beat and the smallest Kahrs are a tad too small to shoot often. So it would be mostly a gun like the Smith 642/442 that you shoot just often enough to be comfortable and competent at short range.

JLStorm
September 11, 2007, 01:02 PM
Well guys, I just couldnt do it. It's not that I think 45 is better than 40, its that I have been shooting it alone for 10 years and has been my faithful carry caliber for the same amount of time. The 45 just feels like its part of me and I dont want to screw with a good thing. I went and ordered a USP compact 45 to save in size and weight and I'll just continue to carry an extra magazine, if I need more than 16 rounds Im screwed I guess.

Anyway I just bought my last 2000 rounds of ammo and I will be buying reloading equipment soon.

Thanks a lot for all your input, I did find it helpful, and I appreciate the time. 40, just doesnt give me that natural feeling I have from 45, but I am certainly not saying 40 is a bad caliber.

HM2PAC
September 11, 2007, 07:45 PM
Reloading is really enjoyable. An addiction unto itself.

You will notice that the USP chamber will not allow any poorly resized brass through. I like it that way. The only time my USP has FTF'd was when my resizing was sloppy.

The HK products really make you do your part.

If you have any questions about reloading feel free to contact me.

mavracer
September 11, 2007, 07:59 PM
If your planing on just loading 45 look at a dillon square deal press, they come ready to set powder chg and seat depth and go.rainer bullets work nice and ww231 powder for plinkin'

HM2PAC
September 11, 2007, 08:55 PM
I use Rainier bullets and Win 231 for plinking. They work great. The Rainier bullets are plated instead of jacketed. My experience is that they NEVER separate from their lead core. They are cheap and effective.

For any beginning reloader I would recommend a single stage press. The new reloader needs to become familiar with each step of the process.

Save your brass.

If you enjoyed reading about "Im thinking of downgrading from 45ACP to 40S&W..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!