.223/5.56 carbine for self defense


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chaim
August 19, 2007, 01:59 AM
A lot has been written about this caliber for home defense. Many experts claim lower overpenetration than even many handgun calibers, along with good short distance stopping power, making it a great home defense choice. I don't want to argue the effectiveness of the round for this purpose, I am sold. I have been in my parents' house so the distance between houses is just enough that I felt OK with a 12ga with 00buck for my home defense long gun choice. However, I'm moving to an apartment- to lower overpenetration issues with a 12ga you have to go to shot weights that are too light for my comfort (maybe #4 buck will work out). So, I think I may start saving for another .223/5.56 carbine or rifle and just use the shotgun until I get the new carbine (late fall/early winter target date but waiting until tax refund time isn't unlikely either).

Some considerations:

-It is for home defense so I definately want it in semi-auto or a lever rifle (the Browning BLR has a box mag so spitzer/pointed rounds, like the .223, is safe, but I haven't checked to see if they chamber it in .223). A bolt rifle in a scout rifle configuration may work for this use, but speed may be an issue (I am not very experienced with bolt rifles). Still, you may be able to convince me on that particular configuration so I'm open to hearing any benefits I'm overlooking.

-I will be living in Baltimore City where even the most clear cut self defense cases in your home will probably result in charges. Baltimore City juries aren't going to be particularly knowledgable about guns. So the more PC it looks the better (i.e. no ARs, wood furniture, a lever rifle is probably a plus if it can fit my price range).

-I am a teacher, I am moving in Sept and have a lot of furniture that needs replaced (I've been living with my parents too long and storage didn't agree with some of my furniture, especially the upholstered items) so I have a lot of one time expenses coming up. I may not have a lot to spend on the rifle. Definately, it has to be under $1K, and preferably more like the $450-700 range.

-I am open to other caliber suggestions, within reason, but don't try to talk me out of my belief that .223/5.56 is a great caliber for my needs. If you know of another caliber that will be good for stopping an attack without too much overpenetration (thin apartment walls, I don't want to hit my attacker, have the round exit and then have sufficient energy left to go through the wall and hit a neighbor). I am partial to revolver caliber lever rifles, but I am worried that .357mag and certainly .44mag would have too much overpenetration for my situation out of a revolver, so out of a long gun it certainly is an issue.

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TOU
August 19, 2007, 02:04 AM
Saiga 19"

Bartholomew Roberts
August 19, 2007, 02:10 AM
.223 is very effective; but ammunition selection plays an important role as well. First, I would consider whatever rifles I already owned and whether they could be serve well with good ammo selection.

If you are still set on .223, take a look at the gel tests in the Rifle Forum Reading library. They will help give you an idea of how your defensive ammo might perform.

Finally, if you are set on a new .223 rifle, I would consider a Saiga for your criteria. They are affordable, reliable, and tough. You could leave it in its stock "sporter" form to make it appear less threatening; but still have a detachable magazine semi-auto that can take large mags and would be very effective for your purposes.

chaim
August 19, 2007, 02:13 AM
I've thought a little about the Saiga. With the sporterized stock, and if I go with wood furniture as well, it looks pretty much like a hunting rifle at first glance. However, (maybe because I'm a gun person and know what it is) when I look at the receiver it says "AK" all over it to me. I'm in Baltimore, think "we'd ban guns if the state would let us" mindset of the politicians in charge- I don't want to have headlines of "Tenant kills several youths with assault rifle" while the article extolls the virtues of the "young kids who never got into trouble" between drug dealing arrests, who I brutally killed when they were engaged in a home invasion of my place. I'm probably just being paranoid though. I'll see if I can find a Saiga at a shop in the area and see what they look like in person.

rangerruck
August 19, 2007, 02:13 AM
You have two good choices here, the saiga is fabulous, and cheap, but will frowned upon, if you ever have to go to court, since it is a deff 'evil AK' the most evil of all weapons. Also Keltec has a line of m16 knock offs, with folding stocks, and they take reg aftermarket m16 mags, plus the c and d model has a toprail, to attach all kinds of lights and goodies, plus it is all milspec so you can attach reg stuff that uses military measurements. it is about 150 bucks more than a Saiga, but you should still be able to get for under 500.

rangerruck
August 19, 2007, 02:16 AM
to avoid overpenetration all together, find an old remmy semiauto , shotgun, that holds I think 5 or 8 410 shotgun rounds. Should be about 300 bucks or so, more if in great condition, I personally would love to get a hold of one of those, for fast, light , home defense.

chaim
August 19, 2007, 02:25 AM
.223 is very effective; but ammunition selection plays an important role as well. First, I would consider whatever rifles I already owned and whether they could be serve well with good ammo selection.

My AR would be ideal, if I lived somewhere else. The one thing I can pretty much be assured of in Baltimore City is if I am in a defensive shoot (no matter how good a shoot) I probably will be charged. Also, racial tensions around town are getting ugly so I probably wouldn't have a very sympathetic jury (Orthodox Jews are particularly hated by certain of our neighbors). I want a gun that looks as PC as possible (for my home defense handgun I'll probably go back to using revolvers exclusively and only use the auto pistols for range fun and CCW when out of state).

My other long guns:

SKS. 7.62x39 will have far too much penetration to be safe for my needs and with the bayonnet it is definately not a very PC safe choice.

Benelli Nova 12ga, 18.5" barrel with rifle sights. With effective ammo overpenetration may be just a little high for apartment use. Also, with my PC looks concern, I'll at least have to replace it with something else as soon as I can even if I do stay with a shot gun (maybe a wood stocked Mossberg 500).

Winchester 94 in 30-30. Overpenetration would be a huge issue. It is plenty PC enough, and I can get off shots almost as fast as with a semi.

Winchester 94 in .45LC. Maybe, but probably too much overpenetration. Also, something about the .45LC and the Win 94 action isn't quite a perfect fit- I usually have some kind of minor reliability issue every 2-3 boxes of ammo. I hear .357 and .44mag are much more reliable, but definate overpenetration issues if I trade it for a 94 chambered for the magnum chamberings. Maybe a Win 73, Puma, or Marlin in .45LC would work?

Marlin Model 60. Don't laugh, .22lr out of a rifle can be fairly effective. However, it would probably take several rounds, and in Baltimore City (again the PC issue) the more stopping power the better since the fewer rounds the better (if it takes 5 rounds of .22lr I can see the prosecutor now talking about how blood thirsty you have to be to put 5 rounds into the sweet innocent kid with a gun who was kicking in your front door).

chaim
August 19, 2007, 02:54 AM
Hmm, one option I was seriously considering looks like it is off the table.

I was thinking the Browning BLR would be near perfect (hard to be more PC than a lever rifle and the Browning looks like a deer rifle) but they don't have .223 on the website. The BAR also seemed a good choice for my needs (semi-auto and removable mags are good for HD, yet it looks like grandpa's old deer rifle) but again it isn't listed in .223. Does anyone know if they ever chambered these in .223 or am I not going to find them, new or used, in .223?

RockyMtnTactical
August 19, 2007, 03:07 AM
I'd stick with a pump shotgun if you are ruling out all the "evil looking" rifles.

Monkeybear
August 19, 2007, 03:17 AM
A mini 14. Its small, handy, easily resold, and semi-auto.

Still I would think that despited the penetration issues of 00 buck the energy lost per penetrated wall would be far greater than that of a .223 due to the lack of spin of the projectile and the lower sectional density, am I wrong?

Slvr Surfr
August 19, 2007, 03:17 AM
I don't understand why you believe a .223 will not over penetrate like a 12ga would ? Have you read this :http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

For home/apartment defense the .223 will be more likely to over penetrate and kill a neighbor than your 12ga. will. I know of at least one case where a guy had an AD with an AR .223 and shot the neighbor next door. The neighbor was asleep in bed, and was shot through the wall while in bed.

RockyMtnTactical
August 19, 2007, 03:28 AM
Slvr Surfr,

You are correct on one thing specifically, and that is, the .223 very likely will over penetrate.

That is not exactly why .223 is better in urban areas... although the reason is still that it is "less lethal". This is because although it will pass through barriers (just like shotgun pellets, other rifle rounds, and other pistol rounds), the passing through of barriers will (hopefully) slow the bullet below fragmentation velocities making it a less harmful .22 caliber projectile...

Slvr Surfr
August 19, 2007, 03:51 AM
The only real world tests I have seen are from the Box O truth, so.......I would assume that a shotgun pellet that stops in 6-7 sheets of sheet wall is going to have less lethal force than a .223 that goes through all 12 sheets. We can argue that .223's may frag and fall apart, but the fact is that it penetrates more so, than 12ga depending on the round.

I wish I had a place to do all my own real world tests, but I don't.

RMT,
If you have any other sites that give good info on this please post em up.

Monkeybear
August 19, 2007, 03:51 AM
Rocky- but a 00 pellet will slow down into an even less dangerous projectile if that is what you are going for.

woof
August 19, 2007, 03:58 AM
It's hard to get more PC looking than the almost "cute" little cz carbine in .223. I just bought a new one for $450 and love it. With practice, the smooth and short Mauser action can be operated pretty quickly.

chaim
August 19, 2007, 09:05 AM
slvr,

While those tests are interesting, what makes them useless for judging overpenetration in a self defense situation is that he is shooting directly into building materials. With any gun, even a .22lr, you are pretty much screwed so far as the bullet being a risk to someone else if you miss. .223 will go through hard barriers pretty well. What I'm interested in is OVERpenetration should I hit the target.

Once it hits the human body, the small and light projectile of the .223 probably won't exit. If it does, there have been other tests (many documented/reported here on THR) that show the .223 to have less overpenetration danger than pretty much any other effective defensive round. Other than trying to evaluate real life shooting events (which isn't very scientific), the best test is shooting into a block of ballistic geletin with buiding materials placed behind it.

Again, I don't want this discussion here, as I am convinced. I am not seeking to convince anyone else if they don't want to be convinced. It has been rehashed again and again here and other gun boards. If you want to see for yourself do a search here, at TFL or even on Google to find the benefits of .223/5.56 for defensive and law enforcment use.

PT-Partners
August 19, 2007, 09:16 AM
Just an thought and I have seen it in somes places for use, keep the pump shot gun and change the load to number 4 buck shot. 27 or so pieces of lead at about the size of a 22 round at one time in the space of any size room (15" to 25") should be adequate for any situation with the excpection of body armor.

Now if some one or several individuals are entering your apartment without your permission with body armor and brandishing firearms there is something else going on and you are in very, very, deep "waste material."

On the overpenetration part, I think the speed of the load is in the 900 fps range. You stay politically correct if there is such a thing in a large city. :rolleyes:

Again, just a thought.

Dave Markowitz
August 19, 2007, 09:24 AM
Look for a used Mini-14, e.g., a police trade-in. It should run $400 or less. Use Ruger factory mags or if you can find them, pre-ban PMIs.

Pro-Mag introduced 20s and 30s after the AWB sunset, which mimic the Ruger factory design to a "T" and have a very good reputation. I have a 20 but haven't tried it yet, but assuming it works it's a cheaper alternative to the Ruger or PMI mags.

woof
August 19, 2007, 09:36 AM
After thinking about this I don't really think it matters. If you ever get charged the fact that you have an SKS in your apartment will be dragged out and you will be branded as an assault rifle owning wacko anyway.

stevek
August 19, 2007, 09:41 AM
Remington also makes the Model 7615, a .223 pump rifle, with wood furniture and a 10 round magazine...might be a good alternative, but I'm don't how much they're selling for. Good luck in your search.

chaim
August 19, 2007, 09:49 AM
A mini 14. Its small, handy, easily resold, and semi-auto.

Look for a used Mini-14
The Mini-14 is one of my top choices, but I'm looking for other alternatives as well. With how their prices have skyrocketed, I'd probably go used (hard to justify paying about the same for a new Mini as I paid for my AR a few years back).


Still I would think that despited the penetration issues of 00 buck the energy lost per penetrated wall would be far greater than that of a .223 due to the lack of spin of the projectile and the lower sectional density, am I wrong?Each pellet is .33 caliber in 00buck and about 50-55gr and you are throwing 9 of them. Individually, each may be less likely to overpenetrate the human body (more frontal area for the same weight, no rifled spin) but you've increased the odds by 9 times v. a single projectile. Further, from test results I've seen and testimonials from police trainers and other advocates of the carbine for HD and law enforcement use, I have been convinced it is "safer" to use the .223/5.56 than the 12ga with an effective weight projectile (sure, the birdshot has virtually no overpenetration problem, but it isn't very likely to penetrate enough to be effective).

I'd stick with a pump shotgun if you are ruling out all the "evil looking" riflesThere is a real possibility that I'll simply stay with the pump shotgun (but replace my tactical looking model and go with a wood stocked version).

However, in that line of thinking, the Remington 7615 is looking interesting (though I don't like the $900+ MSRP). Designed after the ever popular Remington 870 and the Ranch Carbine has non-threatening looking wood furniture (looks like a hunting shotgun to a large degree). Meanwhile, it is capable- reliable 870 action and AR mags (5 and 10 rounders to look PC, and I could load my 20 round AR mags if I really felt the need). The only negative, you need the 7615 tactical (looks tactical) or the camo (not sure how that would play with a potential post-shoot jury) to get iron sights so a scope of some kind would be a must (and "tactical" scopes, like a red dot, may remove some of the PC looking benefits).

It's hard to get more PC looking than the almost "cute" little cz carbine in .223.You are right that a bolt rifle may be a good bet. Definately not going to look too tactical. The removable box mag may help alleviate the lower round count somewhat (also a consideration with the BLR). I guess I could go with something like this and just stick with the shotgun a little longer while I got used to the action type.

Just an thought and I have seen it in somes places for use, keep the pump shot gun and change the load to number 4 buck shotIf I stick with the shotgun, that is definately the way I am going. Lighter shot would definately alleviate some of the overpenetration worries. In the end it would certainly be the least expensive PC looking option (I could probably trade my Benelli Nova for about what a wood stocked Mossberg 500 would run and if I kept both we're talking what, $200-250 for a 500 or 870).

sansone
August 19, 2007, 09:57 AM
the Russian Saiga .223 or 7.62x39 is a good low-priced alternative to a mini-14.. they are higher quality than the Romanian & chinese AK's.

chaim
August 19, 2007, 10:00 AM
After thinking about this I don't really think it matters. If you ever get charged the fact that you have an SKS in your apartment will be dragged out and you will be branded as an assault rifle owning wacko anyway.

Woof, I hadn't thought about it before, but you are probably right. Even more than the SKS, the AR (EBR) and the numbers in my collection (less than 2 dozen, significantly more than 1 dozen) will hurt. Maybe I should keep most of my non-home defense guns in a storage unit (eZ Storage isn't that much per month, about $60 for a small AC/heated unit), it may turn out to be cheap insurance (and would solve a big part of my gun security issue I posted in general gun discussions due to mainenence having access to the apartment).

Remington also makes the Model 7615, a .223 pump rifle, with wood furniture and a 10 round magazine...might be a good alternative, but I'm don't how much they're selling for. Good luck in your search.Steve, you posted while I was composing my last post, appears we are on the same wavelength. Other than cost (MSRP over $900) the main problem is that that wood stocked Ranch Carbine is drilled and tapped for a scope but has no iron sights. Since the camo version and tactical version do have sights, and since it is modelled after the 870 which has all kinds of accessories available (including sights) I doubt it would be too hard to address as an aftermarket modification though (however, it would add even more to the cost).

Domino
August 19, 2007, 10:21 AM
The 7615 should be around ~$6-700 if you look around. That or the Mini-14 should be the most likely choices.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/36_57/sort/3a/page/2

Hypnogator
August 19, 2007, 10:23 AM
There is a real possibility that I'll simply stay with the pump shotgun (but replace my tactical looking model and go with a wood stocked version).

That's what I'd do, IIWY. If you're looking for "harmless," get a skeet gun in either a pump or autoloader. It has a relatively short (26") bbl, open choke, and you can't get more "gentlemanly" than a gun designed solely to break clay birds.

(sure, the birdshot has virtually no overpenetration problem, but it isn't very likely to penetrate enough to be effective).
Whoever told you that must've been smoking crack. You get a solid torso hit on an unarmored goblin with a 12-ga skeet load (#9 shot) at across-the-room distances, and I seriously doubt you'll have to worry about what he'll do next, other than how are you going to clean up all that blood! Not that I recommend skeet loads for SD, but, again, for the "harmless" defense, I would have a box of high-base #4 goose loads handy. If you wanted to hedge your bets, as has been suggested, get some #4 buck.

Another rifle possibility, almost as "harmless" as the skeet gun would be to get a Marlin 1894 or Win 94 in .44 Mag., then load it with .44 Spl SWCs. Fast-shooting, punches big holes fairly deep, and the SWC configuration is a "target" load.

I know you don't want to hear this, but I consider .223 in an urban apartment to be bad juju. It's going to be close, fast, and nasty. Unless you're talking head shots, the .223/5.56mm just isn't going to be effective enough fast enough, and if you do get a head shot, you're dealing with the overpenetration issue again.

Just my $.02 worth (after taxes).

bhk
August 19, 2007, 10:37 AM
I think a shotgun would be the best choice. You are right about the Browning BLR not being available in .223, but it IS available in 22-250. With light bullets, it would pretty much mimic the .223 in performance (slightly more effective) and pretty much shake the the evil image the .223 has in the eyes of some folks. The 22-250 is a very popular varmint cartridge and the BLRs are very slick, fast-action lever rifles.

ny32182
August 19, 2007, 11:13 AM
If you are worried about overpenetration, I think the *key* scenario you have to worry about is if you miss. If you get a torso shot, only big, obviously-overkill loads are going to have big energy upon exit. You can see that from all the gel tests. Hits aren't the problem. Misses are...

The key with .223 is ammo selection. Milspec ammo will cut through building materials like the rifle round that it is. You don't want milspec ammo if you are worried about overpenetration in an apt. You should probably consider a 40-50gr frangible "varmint" bullet. This round will generate a much shallower wound than milspec ammo, but should still penetrate far better than birdshot (which I would never consider for home defense). In the event of a miss, frangible .223 should also break up considerably in just a few layers of drywall, and is probably the best overall compromise you will find in any rifle round if overpenetration is a concern.

As far as the gun, a used wood-stocked Mini-14 with a small mag is as cheap and as "hunting rifle" looking as it gets.

txgolfer45
August 19, 2007, 11:16 AM
A shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 or 8 shot is probably your best bet in an urban home defense scenario (especially an apartment). If you lived out in the country, I could see the AR type rifle in .223.

jpwilly
August 19, 2007, 11:30 AM
You're not going to like this either. I don't believe the 223 and or most rifles / carbines to be good PC home defence. You should get a revolver if you want to be PC + you can keep it on your person instead of at arms reach out in the open sitting arround. You plan to have guests? Parties? etc...where's your carbine then? Handguns are pretty good for home defence especially in an apartment.

Browning
August 19, 2007, 11:55 AM
Concealment does not equal cover military video of penetration tests.
http://www.militaryvideos.net/videos.php?videonum=43

Tests on 5/8 gypsum with various calibers
http://www.huts.com/Huts%27sBallisticTest.htm

.223 Rem Horandy TAP ammo through auto glass.
http://www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/automotive_glass_penetration_performance.htm

MSNBC puts body armor to the test.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904/

Bullet penetration on a Buick.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot6.htm

Bullet penetration on standard drywall.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm

Tests on 1/2 inch drywall.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Wounding effects of .223 Rem/5.56 Nato
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs26.htm

Best Choices for defensive ammo
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=237

Fragmenting .223 Rem ammo
http://accutecusa.com/

.223 Rem ammo review.
http://www.aaconsult.com/ammoreview/html/_223_reviews.html

I've always heard that in .223 Rem the 40 grain HP was best for Home Defense as it supposedly doesn't penetrate through drywall, wood, cinder block and/or brick like some of these others, but I was unable to find any tests that confirmed that with video or pictures. Since it's meant for varmint shooting it disinegrates on impact and doesn't hold together once it strikes something.

So if that's true then it gets rid of two kinds of varmints. :D

chaim
August 19, 2007, 11:56 AM
Hyptnogator:
I've thought about the .44mag lever rifle loaded with .44spl. It would be a sentimental favorite since I absolutely love lever rifles, and it certainly looks PC. I'm also pretty fast with a lever rifle (I can get off aimed shots almost as fast with a good lever rifle as I can with an SKS or AR). However, even the lightly loaded SWC is a big heavy bullet, and out of a carbine length barrel it will have some velocity to it. How is the penetration/overpenetration? It is higher than .223, but other than that I'm not sure what it would compare to. This is an idea I would love to use if I can.


BHK:
22-250 is an interesting idea and one that would let me use the BLR. However, I have two concerns having not seen any ballistic gelatin tests for this round:
1) Will it penetrate enough to incapacitate an attacker
2) Will it overpenetrate and exit the attacker putting other people at risk

You should probably consider a 40-50gr frangible "varmint" bullet.
NY, personally, I don't like frangibles much. With penetration there are two concerns: 1) will it penetrate enough to incapacitate an attacker (it needs to be able to hit major organs and break bones), 2) will it overpenetrate and exit your attacker putting other people at risk. Most of what I've read on frangibles shows #2 isn't much of a risk, but most frangibles don't penetrate enough (sure, the entry wound is impressive, but they stop pretty fast and often won't hit vital organs, and if they hit a bone it is the bullet and not the bone that will shatter). However, you may be right that it may be one of the better answers for an apartment (I'm hoping it isn't the best answer though).

You should get a revolver if you want to be PC + you can keep it on your person instead of at arms reach out in the open sitting arround. You plan to have guests? Parties? etc...where's your carbine then? Handguns are pretty good for home defence especially in an apartment.

JP, I agree that a handgun is a vital part of anyone's home defense plans. However, as they say, a handgun is just so you can fight your way to the shotgun/carbine (something more effective than a handgun). I have several handguns that take their turn as home defense guns (and I usually have one of my J-frames loaded up serving as CCW around the house). I do agree that the revolver is more PC than the auto pistol, and being in Balt City (one of the more anti-gun jurisdictions in a particularly non-gun friendly state) that is an issue. I may replace my 1911s for home defense duty with a .44LC or .44spl revolver (and until then use my .357mags loaded with .38+P)

Bartholomew Roberts
August 19, 2007, 11:58 AM
Just some quick points from the 20 other discussions we have had on this subject that I know chaim has read; but apparently others have missed or forgotten:

A shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 or 8 shot is probably your best bet in an urban home defense scenario

I've talked to a man who was shot in the upper torso from 15' with birdshot from a 12ga (probably #8). He made his own 911 call and was conscious until the paramedics arrived. He survived because the birdshot did not penetrate enough to damage any internal organs. I've told this story before as well as linked to other examples (13yr old girl shot in the head from across the porch survives by fleeing her attacker).

Let's look at the numbers, according to this Guns and Ammo article (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/hevi_hitter/), #4 Hevi-Shot bird shot penetrates 3.6" in ballistics gel. #4 lead birdshot penetrates 3.2" in gelatin. For an average male, your heart is going to be about 2-3" (and behind the sternum) at the absolute best profile possible. Now throw in an intermediate barrier, an arm, a weapon, or practically anything and you have an impressive surface wound; but one that will not physiologically stop an opponent.

The shotgun can be a fine HD weapon; but the birdshot recommendation is a bad one IMO unless your attacker is only 4" deep. You need a heavier shot to make the shotgun effective and you need to pattern your shotgun so you know how much of that shot is going to miss the torso entirely and zip through the neighbor's apartment.

You should probably consider a 40-50gr frangible "varmint" bullet.

People tend to use frangible and varmint interchangeably because they are both designed to break up on targets quickly; but technically, a frangible bullet is a training round made of compressed sintered metal. They are usually less reliable for function and often have the same underpenetration problems that birdshot has.

Varmint bullets are just coventional hollowpoints or ballistic tip bullets that are lightweight and moving out at very high velocity. They function more reliably than frangibles; but they also can have penetration issues. You need to know the gel numbers for your selected round and decide if that is adequate for your needs.

One thing to remember for any home defense scenario is that your attacker will likely not be presenting the classic front-on unobstructed shot to the center mass of his thoracic cavity. In fact, if you are justified in using lethal force, there is a very good chance he will have his arms out in front of him blocking that zone, as well as a decent sized chunk of metal in those arms. The arms alone can be equivalent to 4-6" of gel penetration for a round... so your round the penetrates 7" of ballistic gel is now penetrating 1-3" of the torso and your "special home defense Glaser" round is now not reaching the torso at all.

chaim, too bad Hornady does not make something like the 110-gr VMAX in .30-30 for their Leverevolution line. Something like that would probably meet your needs very well. If you already have a reliable semi .223 that will serve in the HD role, you might consider setting aside the new rifle money to talk with a defense attorney, explain your concerns and get his recommendations on how to mitigate those concerns.

chaim
August 19, 2007, 11:59 AM
I've always heard that in .223 Rem the 40 grain HP was best for Home Defense as it doesn't penetrate through drywall, wood...Pretty much every caliber, including .22lr, will penetrate standard construction materials. My issue isn't with what happens if I miss since any chambering will be dangerous in that situation. My worry is with OVERpenetration, you hit the target and the round exits your attacker with enough energy to still penetrate construction materials and be a threat to your neighbor. Most experts and tests seem to confirm that the .223/5.56 is even better in limiting this kind of overpenetration than most handgun rounds.

Browning
August 19, 2007, 12:05 PM
chaim : Pretty much every caliber, including .22lr, will penetrate standard construction materials. My issue isn't with what happens if I miss since any chambering will be dangerous in that situation. My worry is with OVERpenetration, you hit the target and the round exits your attacker with enough energy to still penetrate construction materials and be a threat to your neighbor. Most experts and tests seem to confirm that the .223/5.56 is even better in limiting this kind of overpenetration than most handgun rounds.

That would be my worry as well. It seems like most of the .223 Rem/5.56 ammo penetrated more than most people think though (than I thought anyway). As far as I knew until recently the .223 wasn't supposed to be able to go through 2, 3 or 4 walls, but that belief didn't match up to the evidence.

This one's supposed to fragment though, so I wonder how it would do on drywall and wood.

http://accutecusa.com/

chaim
August 19, 2007, 12:09 PM
...you might consider setting aside the new rifle money to talk with a defense attorney, explain your concerns and get his recommendations on how to mitigate those concerns.
You are probably right. As woof said, my "arsenal" will probably be used against me if charged in a defensive shooting no matter what I used to defend myself. I am going to be in Baltimore City where I will be charged if I find myself in an unfortunate situation where I have to defend myself from an attacker. Talking to a lawyer experienced in such situations may be better than the guessing game.

I can't wait until I can afford to buy a house. At that point I'll be moving to the part of the Orthodox Community that is in Baltimore County instead of Baltimore City (assuming I don't move to another state altogether). Balt. County is so much more sane than Balt. City.

Dave Markowitz
August 19, 2007, 12:35 PM
While I discount the "PC" factor, since to antigunners all guns are bad, another good option could be a coach gun. Stoeger and Remington both sell coach guns in 12 and 20 gauge. They have a couple of big advantages IMO:

1. Intimidation factor. EVERYONE knows what's being pointed at them when looking down two shotgun barrels. You can't rely on this, but since the vast majority of defensive gun uses do not see a shot fired, obviously the intimidation factor is something to consider.

2. They are very short for the barrel length, when compared with a slide action or semiauto.

I have a Stoeger Uplander in 20 bore with 26" tubes. It's not that long. I'm still giving serious consideration to picking up a 20" barreled 20 gauge coach gun, maybe one of the Remington Spartans (made in Russia by Baikal, strong like bull).

Load of choice would be 2-3/4" No.3 buck (.25 caliber balls), whichever one patterns best in the gun.

hags
August 19, 2007, 12:56 PM
I'll address some your concerns from this point of view.
Rifles and shotguns are offensive weapons, at the very least that's the perception.
You also mentioned this:

SKS. 7.62x39 will have far too much penetration to be safe for my needs and with the bayonnet it is definately not a very PC safe choice.

Benelli Nova 12ga, 18.5" barrel with rifle sights. With effective ammo overpenetration may be just a little high for apartment use. Also, with my PC looks concern, I'll at least have to replace it with something else as soon as I can even if I do stay with a shot gun (maybe a wood stocked Mossberg 500).

Winchester 94 in 30-30. Overpenetration would be a huge issue. It is plenty PC enough, and I can get off shots almost as fast as with a semi.

Winchester 94 in .45LC. Maybe, but probably too much overpenetration. Also, something about the .45LC and the Win 94 action isn't quite a perfect fit- I usually have some kind of minor reliability issue every 2-3 boxes of ammo. I hear .357 and .44mag are much more reliable, but definate overpenetration issues if I trade it for a 94 chambered for the magnum chamberings. Maybe a Win 73, Puma, or Marlin in .45LC would work?

Marlin Model 60. Don't laugh, .22lr out of a rifle can be fairly effective. However, it would probably take several rounds, and in Baltimore City (again the PC issue) the more stopping power the better since the fewer rounds the better (if it takes 5 rounds of .22lr I can see the prosecutor now talking about how blood thirsty you have to be to put 5 rounds into the sweet innocent kid with a gun who was kicking in your front door).

you know what that sounds like? You have an "arsenal", yes, as silly as it sounds, someone will sell that idea.
If you're seriously looking for a self defense gun then you should consider a handgun. If you are worried about perception then get a revolver. Better yet a model or similiar that's used/been used by police.
You'd be hard pressed to do better than a 4-6" .357 magnum or .38 special six or seven shot.
Just my $.02 worth.

woof
August 19, 2007, 01:09 PM
Look at it this way - whatever you get you will be practicing with it and fondling it a lot more than you will be using it in self-defense (probably never). Since it sounds like you really want a levergun and your main concern is overpenetration, get whatever lever you want and get some low power loads (commercially or made for you) to keep it loaded with for SD. You can get a .30-30 load that will not come out a BG's back and go on through a wall.

chaim
August 19, 2007, 01:14 PM
another good option could be a coach gunIf I decide to stay with a shotgun, I may consider that. Coach guns are nice, and I've wanted one for a while. Giving myself one more reason for one may put it on top of my list to be my next buy. However, I will be in Baltimore City. Home invasion isn't an impossible scenario. I'd feel much more comfortable with more rounds (maybe I could buy 2 coach guns :D ).

you know what that sounds like? You have an "arsenal", yes, as silly as it sounds, someone will sell that idea.


If you think that those five rifles and one shotgun (in addition to the quoted list, I mentioned my AR in the previous paragraph) could be spun to look like an arsenal, then my handgun collection and stockpile of ammo may really look bad.

I'm back to the idea of checking with a Baltimore area lawyer just to review the issues I'll be facing.

Anyway, I may just drop the PC look issue. If to protect myself in that manner I'd have to sell 3/4 of my gun collection then maybe I should stick with just worrying about overpenatration (don't want to hurt a neighbor) and capability (the fewer shots the better, especially in an anti-gun climate where extra shots to end an attack can be spun as "overkill") and just have a really good lawyer on hand to handle the "spin" issue that I would be facing.

I guess I could keep most of my guns in storage but:
1) There is nothing that says a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney wouldn't bring them out anyway since they are my guns.
2) Even in a climate controlled unit they aren't that well climate controlled. Humidity/moisture could be a big problem
3) How well would they really protect my guns from theft? I could buy a safe, but there would definately be no where to bolt it.
4) Legality? When I first got my storage unit for the guns, I checked with the couple running the place and they had no problem with it. Since then, I heard the speech the new operators gave to someone when he rented one. They claimed that storing guns, ammo or explosives in a storage unit were now all illegal.


I am very grateful (for more reason than legal exposure of course) that the chances of having a violent home invasion or some other attack in the home is extremely low.

txgolfer45
August 19, 2007, 01:15 PM
Chaim,

You've mentioned owning a Benelli Nova and 1911's. Look no further. You have the basics for what you need for SD. Train with those and forget about the rifle idea, for now, for SD. The Nova is a 12 ga pump shotgun. Brown wood doesn't make it less PC. Although, I wouldn't talk you out of getting a Remington 870! :D

meef
August 19, 2007, 01:19 PM
Info from Hornady's site for consideration:Hornady (Dept. ST, P.O. Box 1848, Grand Island, NE 68803; 308-382-1390; www.hornady.com) manufactures a line of ammunition called "TAP" (for Tactical Application Police) that has been available only to law-enforcement and military units. Until now. Recently, the company introduced a similar line for personal protection. This new line of ammunition is referred to as TAP FPD, with the FPD suffix indicating "for personal defense."

The line includes rifle ammunition, handgun ammunition, and shotgun loadings. The rifle ammunition comes in .223 Remington with 55-, 60-, and 75-grain loadings that are said to be "exceptionally accurate and consistent with enhanced terminal performance for rapid expansion and fragmentation to reduce the risk of collateral damage due to over-penetration or ricochet." In .308 Winchester there are 110-, 155-, and 168-grain loadings with high ballistic coefficients (B.C.) that are reported to produce match accuracy with rapid fragmentation for dramatic wound cavities and a reduced risk of over-penetration.

The handgun ammunition includes 9mm with 124- and 147-grain loads, .40 S&W with 155- and 180-grain loads, and .45 ACP with 200- and 230-grain loads. The handgun rounds are loaded with the Hornady XTP (Extreme Terminal Performance) bullets.

hags
August 19, 2007, 01:25 PM
If you think that those five rifles and one shotgun (in addition to the quoted list, I mentioned my AR in the previous paragraph) could be spun to look like an arsenal, then my handgun collection and stockpile of ammo may really look bad.

Yes, because I guarantee you that the "normal" people on the jury will be told that you are part of the gun violence problem.
Normal people don't "stock pile" an "arsenal" of guns and ammo, that is, unless you're a dealer. :D


4) Legality? When I first got my storage unit for the guns, I checked with the couple running the place and they had no problem with it. Since then, I heard the speech the new operators gave to someone when he rented one. They claimed that storing guns, ammo or explosives in a storage unit were now all illegal.

Not only that but when they get stolen and used in a crime you'll face legal charges for that too.
I missed the mention of the 1911s, I would look no further than what you have on hand.

ndolson
August 19, 2007, 01:32 PM
If you think that those five rifles and one shotgun (in addition to the quoted list, I mentioned my AR in the previous paragraph) could be spun to look like an arsenal, then my handgun collection and stockpile of ammo may really look bad.

Don't watch the news much do ya?

As for the topic at hand, I'm constantly mulling over which would be best to use should the unfortunate event happen. I have quite an array to choose from. Maybe a .45 out of my 1911, or some .357 out of my 686, .223 out of my AR15, or slugs out of my shotgun. A 1 oz rifled slug would be a devastating wound, something along the lines of 1000 lbft of energy.


It seems lately, there has been an increasing amount of incidents in home invasions involving 2 or more perpetrators. Then you have to ask yourself is 5, 6, or 7 rounds going to be enough? Maybe a carbine in .223/5.56 with a 30rd capacity is the way to go.

Bottom line - use whatever you can hit your target with. A good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of what "evil" weapon you might be using.

hags
August 19, 2007, 01:38 PM
Hornady (Dept. ST, P.O. Box 1848, Grand Island, NE 68803; 308-382-1390; www.hornady.com) manufactures a line of ammunition called "TAP" (for Tactical Application Police) that has been available only to law-enforcement and military units. Until now. Recently, the company introduced a similar line for personal protection. This new line of ammunition is referred to as TAP FPD, with the FPD suffix indicating "for personal defense."

The line includes rifle ammunition, handgun ammunition, and shotgun loadings. The rifle ammunition comes in .223 Remington with 55-, 60-, and 75-grain loadings that are said to be "exceptionally accurate and consistent with enhanced terminal performance for rapid expansion and fragmentation to reduce the risk of collateral damage due to over-penetration or ricochet." In .308 Winchester there are 110-, 155-, and 168-grain loadings with high ballistic coefficients (B.C.) that are reported to produce match accuracy with rapid fragmentation for dramatic wound cavities and a reduced risk of over-penetration.

The handgun ammunition includes 9mm with 124- and 147-grain loads, .40 S&W with 155- and 180-grain loads, and .45 ACP with 200- and 230-grain loads. The handgun rounds are loaded with the Hornady XTP (Extreme Terminal Performance) bullets.

Highly effective ammo. Very accurate.

Local police department that I have ties to recently had a suspect in a car, officiers armed with ARs (16" carbines) opened fire on the approaching vehicle through the windshield. Guess what? All rounds struck the windsheild and were merely peppering the offender, he was unaffected and continued to drive until shot and disabled through the driver's side window which was broken by one officiers .40 department issued handgun.
That department has since switched to two different rounds. One is a AP/penetrator round effective beyond glass and sheet metal and the other is an antipersonnel softpoint.

hags
August 19, 2007, 01:40 PM
Bottom line - use whatever you can hit your target with. A 1 oz rifled slug would be a devastating wound, something along the lines of 1000 lbft of energy.

Absolutely! Shot placement is king! The .22 lr you have is better than the .45 ACP you don't.

Harley Quinn
August 19, 2007, 01:45 PM
Just bought a Kel Tec 16 su ca 223 will be blazing away pretty soon.

I have decided its take down ease and other good points, it will be with me along time along with my model 37 "stakeout" shotgun and seveal of my Glocks and Berettas will be around in various locations, if needed Hmmmm

It is touchy in CA and I find the Kel Tec to be a good one for now. Hope it does not get placed in the "no can have". Politics is a very terrible thing, for freedom (2nd amend) folks.

HQ

chaim
August 19, 2007, 02:02 PM
txgolfer, I have far beyond the basics, however my collection isn't necessarily geared towards urban apartment specific issues (it best addresses HD in a suburban house, CCW, target shooting). I am fine on the handguns (though I may add a big bore, non-magnum, revolver), but on long guns I don't really have anything suitable for my new situation (the shotgun can be made to work with changes in ammo selection).


Meef, that Hornady TAP may be my best option, whether I go with a .223 carbine or stay with a shotgun. It is far more effective than the frangibles, and with less overpenetration than the standard rounds. I may look into it for my handguns as well (though, it is another argument for switching my HD guns to revolvers only again- 200 rounds through an auto to be sure the ammo is reliable in the gun, at those prices, ouch). Hmm, I wonder if that stuff would make the .357mag or .44mag lever rifle more of an option (I do love my lever rifles :D). Even independent of PC image issues, I think a lever rifle has a lot going for it for a home defense carbine (relatively good stopping power as revolver rounds do gain an edge in a long gun, relatively low overpenetration compared to a rifle round, long sight radius, quick to get off aimed shots, can top off the mag on the fly, etc.).

Don't watch the news much do ya?
Well, I do, which is partly why I was worried about keeping my defensive guns PC. I guess I was being somewhat naive thinking the image of what I used would be used against me but what was locked in the safe would be ignored. Still, it is possible that the image of what I use will also be used against me as well as the "man with an arsenal" type stuff.


You know, maybe the tactic to use what the police use may work. "What do you mean that AR is just for crazies intent on killing masses of people. But the police have it." Still, you have to know Baltimore City's prosecutors office and jury pool- anything like that makes me very nervous.

Anyhow, lets drop the PC image requirement. It may not be 100% a non-issue (they may use both the image of the gun used for defense as well as the "man with an arsenal" stuff), but it is secondary to suitability in an apartment (need to limit overpenatration), and capability (sufficient initial penetration, power, etc.).

C-grunt
August 19, 2007, 03:07 PM
Our swat team uses soft point .223 55grn (Federal I believe) and it works wonderful. I was talking with one member and he said they switched to the M4 with .223 softpoints from the MP5 because of increased stopping power and far less over penetration. According to him and the firearms detail who run the patrol rifle program, the softpoints rarely ever exit the badguys and when they do its just a few small pieces.

Prdatr
August 19, 2007, 04:03 PM
IMHO it really depends on just what your trying to protect. But in most all cases the .223 is a very poor choice. Unless you live alone, @ least 1/2 mile from the closes neighbor, and have a full auto with a 30 round clip or drum.
With that being said, you should play out the scenario in your head.
1. Will there be one or more attackers (home invasion or cat burglers)
2. Do you live alone or do you have loved ones to protect, and where will they be?
Have you told/gone through a drill with them in case something does take place? Do they know what to do or will they come into the line of fire or potentially become a hostage when they start investigating what the noise is?
1. Where will the gun be when you need it. On the night stand, or in the safe or quick access lock box?
3. Do you have an escape plan or route?
4. If living alone and you know someone is in your place it may be a lot wiser to grab your shorts and cell phone an high tail it out a window (provided your not 20 stories up), RATHER then confront someone (thieves rarely operate alone) and risk the liklihood of being outgunned just to save your plazma TV (that is if you are more fortunate then I and own one).
5. If you don't own a dog and if it is practical to have one by all means do so as they are much better at early detection then we are and a couple of barks and the would be intruders are most likely gone, looking for easier marks.
6. If there are some defensive training classes in your area, take a few so you know how you are going to react in a HIGH STRESS situation when you are awakened from a sound sleep. Have a plan. I just can't stress this enough. Do you investigate the sound first or check on loved ones that may be sleeping first?
7. If you have ever been shot at I can tell you it is no picnic but an intruder is expecting it so when he/she hears a firearm discharge and a a little dust flys because the projectile is of small diameter and traveling at 3,400fps it is not so nearly intimidating as hearing the rack of a shotgun followed by a 12" hole in the wall or door. There are a lot beter choices in home defence then the venerable .223.
Buy a inexpensive home defence shotgun in 12gauge and some #4 Buck with a LED Flashlight strapped to the barrel.
If you plan on using a handgun then use some home defense rounds like the Glaser brand.
And just remember, if you are vindicated in criminal court the attacker and his family can always sue you in Civil court.

RockyMtnTactical
August 19, 2007, 04:17 PM
Our swat team uses soft point .223 55grn (Federal I believe) and it works wonderful. I was talking with one member and he said they switched to the M4 with .223 softpoints from the MP5 because of increased stopping power and far less over penetration. According to him and the firearms detail who run the patrol rifle program, the softpoints rarely ever exit the badguys and when they do its just a few small pieces.

Does Federal make a 55gr softpoint that is not bonded? The Bonded softpoints they sell are some of the best penetrators in .223 available...

ndolson
August 19, 2007, 05:19 PM
IMHO it really depends on just what your trying to protect. But in most all cases the .223 is a very poor choice. Unless you live alone, @ least 1/2 mile from the closes neighbor, and have a full auto with a 30 round clip or drum.

um...

I'd like to know where you get your wealth of knowledge from. The fact you called it a clip from the get go makes me negate the rest of your post.

it is not so nearly intimidating as hearing the rack of a shotgun followed by a 12" hole in the wall or door.

roflmao are you serious? those bad guys are gonna crap their pants as soon as you rack that slide? you want to alert your armed bad guy that you're there so he can be ready to attack you? and know that you have at most 6 or so shots?

And just remember, if you are vindicated in criminal court the attacker and his family can always sue you in Civil court.

Yeah, maybe if you live in a communist state. Out here in the free world, there are laws in place to prevent that from happening.

non-THR content removed

Maybe you should visit this site first www.theboxotruth.com and then come back when you've had those silly notions wiped from your mind. :) If you're going to try and advise someone on issues that could affect their livelihood, try to put a little more thought into it. I'd be really sorry if someone took your post to heart.

Bartholomew Roberts
August 19, 2007, 05:24 PM
If we are dropping the PC requirement, then I would suggest Hornady 55gr TAP FPD in the AR you already own. This is essentially a Hornady VMAX. You can see gel shots of the 40, 55, and 75gr Hornady rounds here (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506&page=9) (7th post from bottom).

The 55gr VMAX does about 8-9" in bare gel with most fragmentation occuring in the 3-6" range. This is under the FBI requirements (12") but should minimize your overpenetration concerns without sacrificing too much terminal performance. The 40gr literally explodes and penetrates about 5". If you decide either of those is less penetration than you want, then the Hornady 75gr TAP is well-recognized as a top performer in the terminal effects department and meets all FBI criteria.

If you plan on using a handgun then use some home defense rounds like the Glaser brand.

Well, we just had the discussion of why birdshot from a 12ga is ineffective. So I am going to disagree and say that #12 birdshot from a handgun (Glaser Blue) or #6 birdshot from a handgun (Glaser Silver) is a not a good choice for self defense. You can do a search of THR and find several real-life examples of failures (including a store owner who was forced to fire through one-way glass to stop a robbery and an x-ray of a trauma victim in Johanesburg, SA).

Harley Quinn
August 19, 2007, 05:55 PM
Bartholomew,
That picture (blown out primer) is a good one to put over at the high pressure of .223 being displayed at the high pressure thread :what:

Being a "Mod" you will be able to find it :scrutiny::D

The birdshot situation with a handgun for self defense is not all that bad especially if you hit them in the face IMHO...Second shot would not be BS though:neener:

benEzra
August 19, 2007, 08:38 PM
I don't understand why you believe a .223 will not over penetrate like a 12ga would ? Have you read this :http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

For home/apartment defense the .223 will be more likely to over penetrate and kill a neighbor than your 12ga. will. I know of at least one case where a guy had an AD with an AR .223 and shot the neighbor next door. The neighbor was asleep in bed, and was shot through the wall while in bed.
Slvr Surfr,

The box'o'truth tests primarily involved FMJ, and (I think) one test of some FMJ-profile sintered metal target bullets designed to disintegrate when they strike metal. Neither would be the best choice for defensive use in a non-rural area, IMHO, due to greater penetration of typical building materials.

40- and 55-grain jacketed hollowpoints penetrate less in typical building materials than 9mm JHP and most buckshot loads, according to most studies I've seen. Yes, they don't penetrate as deeply in gelatin as 55-grain and heavier non-HP's (especially the 40's), but under certain circumstances I think it is an appropriate tradeoff.

hags
August 20, 2007, 01:07 PM
Quote:
Our swat team uses soft point .223 55grn (Federal I believe) and it works wonderful. I was talking with one member and he said they switched to the M4 with .223 softpoints from the MP5 because of increased stopping power and far less over penetration. According to him and the firearms detail who run the patrol rifle program, the softpoints rarely ever exit the badguys and when they do its just a few small pieces.

Does Federal make a 55gr softpoint that is not bonded? The Bonded softpoints they sell are some of the best penetrators in .223 available.

The department I metioned earlier in this thread uses Federal Tactical 62 gr as their main round and Remington 55gr soft points as their secondary.

Soft points have reduced penetration, especially in "hard" barriers and reduced ricochet potential as expounded on below. This quote is from www.policeone.com.

The .223/5.56mm

The move away from pistol caliber carbines to the .223 Remington cartridge (military 5.56 mm) has been written about in great detail. The wide range of available bullet types for this caliber allows users to select ammo types according to their tactical needs.

In a recent Chicago-area shooting I described in Part 1, pistol and .223 rifle fire proved ineffective in penetrating the automobile sheet metal and laminate glass. The .223 bullet type deployed that day was not designed to penetrate hard barriers. While the final open-air head shot with the .223 proved immediately incapacitating, reports of numerous officer-involved shooting incidents in recent years show many took place on the street and included gunmen taking cover behind autos and other barriers.

In such situations, officers can address vehicle or barrier penetration with the Federal Tactical bonded bullet, the Hornaday TAP barrier penetrator or the recently introduced Corbon DPX solid copper round. Each of these bullets is designed to penetrate barriers with minimal deflection while retaining sufficient weight and velocity to make deep wounds. A number of federal agencies (e.g., DEA, FBI, etc.) issue the 62-grain Federal Tactical round as the primary duty load for the above reasons. The Corbon load demonstrates excellent performance against sheet metal and auto glass, losing less than 10 percent of its weight.

Yet populated, high-density locations may require the reduced penetration and ricochet potential found in more frangible projectiles, such as a 55-grain soft-point. Deploying the .223 with 55-grain soft point in a residential structure, school or workplace environment reduces the likelihood of a bullet passing through multiple walls or doors and striking an unintended person.
In addition, the .223 effectively penetrates soft body armor. This is a real consideration as violent criminals increasingly use body armor, such as the bank robbers involved in L.A.'s North Hollywood Bank shootout.

000Buck
August 20, 2007, 01:14 PM
Unless you are looking for a reason to buy another gun, what is wrong with #4 buckshot again?

SpeedAKL
August 20, 2007, 01:50 PM
This may sound extremely naive, but even in this media-saturated, paranoid world is it really a concern that you will be jailed for protecting yourself from someone trying to harm or kill you just because you used an Evil Black Rifle to do it?

ECVMatt
August 20, 2007, 04:35 PM
Federal 125 grn. HP's. This is an often over looked round for SD, but has shown me good potential on a few coyotes I have shot using it. It tends to expand rather quickly, but penatrates about 14 inches or so on a chest shot coyote.

Matt

RockyMtnTactical
August 20, 2007, 05:04 PM
A number of federal agencies (e.g., DEA, FBI, etc.) issue the 62-grain Federal Tactical round as the primary duty load for the above reasons.

You do realize that this specific round mentioned is a SP, as well as the 55gr bonded tactical round?

hags
August 20, 2007, 07:49 PM
c-grunt posted this:
Our swat team uses soft point .223 55grn (Federal I believe) and it works wonderful. I was talking with one member and he said they switched to the M4 with .223 softpoints from the MP5 because of increased stopping power and far less over penetration. According to him and the firearms detail who run the patrol rifle program, the softpoints rarely ever exit the badguys and when they do its just a few small pieces.

RockyMtnTactical posted this:

Does Federal make a 55gr softpoint that is not bonded? The Bonded softpoints they sell are some of the best penetrators in .223 available...

I posted this as part of an article on .223/5.56 use in LE:

Yet populated, high-density locations may require the reduced penetration and ricochet potential found in more frangible projectiles, such as a 55-grain soft-point.

I think you can conclude that the 55gr soft point would make a decent home defense round, without the worry of overpenetration or high risk of ricochet. This, my experience and other PDs going the same route seem to me to be a good test bed for actual use ballistics testing.

Harley Quinn
August 21, 2007, 01:21 AM
I would look at using you .30-30 with..

Federal 125 grn. HP's. This is an often over looked round for SD, but has shown me good potential on a few coyotes I have shot using it. It tends to expand rather quickly, but penatrates about 14 inches or so on a chest shot coyote.

Matt

I have found that to be true with the pistol bullets in a 35 rem lvr action myself.
Pistol bullets are quicker to mushroom and expand at lower velocity, so when loaded up in a rifle they are very destructive and will not penetrate (or will if soft tissue only)

You need to find a happy medium. It really seems to be obsessive on these boards, and the continual in-fighting as to what will do this or that.:cuss:

So many variables the best to do is go with what others have mentioned and try to be in the middle of the road, I'd mention on this one.
Are you shooting long distance or are you in a middle of the road situation?

This is one of the major concerns of LEO. Based on expert (so called or not) advise they attempt to make a good decision regarding the weapon and round to carry on duty in the jurisdiciton they have.

Some of the worst second guessing is when one department has a 40 cal and another department, across the double yellow, has a 9mm for the same job:eek:

Practice is the key and having the weapon avaliable to use is another.

chaim
August 21, 2007, 01:24 AM
Unless you are looking for a reason to buy another gun, what is wrong with #4 buckshot again?From what I've read #4 buck is the heaviest you can do without much overpenetration risk (doesn't answer your question yet, it is only why I don't want anything heavier in an apartment). Also, #4 buck is about the lightest you can go with and still have sufficient power to stop an attack, #4buck is the minimum effective self-defense load in a shotgun. While minimum is "good enough" I suppose, I don't really want just minimum stopping power. It will be OK as a stop-gap until I can buy a carbine in a more suitable caliber, and there is a chance I may go with it long-term, but I'd feel more comfortable with something else that may give me both (relatively) low overpenetration potential with higher power levels. The one that comes closest seems to be the .223/5.56 at indoor home defense ranges.

I would look at using you .30-30 with..

Federal 125 grn. HP's. This is an often over looked round for SD, but has shown me good potential on a few coyotes I have shot using it. It tends to expand rather quickly, but penatrates about 14 inches or so on a chest shot coyote.

That is a direction I haven't really considered. I suppose with some loads, guns in chamberings that normally wouldn't be suitable (too much overpenetration) may be OK. So, hunters, I'd be interested in your experiences with different loads in:
-.357mag*
-.44mag*
-.45LC*
-30-30
-.223/5.56
-(maybe) 22-250, .308 and .243 (would make a BLR and BAR possible)
I'm looking for loads that don't overpenetrate (they shouldn't exit the target), while still penetrating between 8-14", preferably in deer and similar size animals.

*I am primarily looking for info on the revolver calibers in a carbine, but revolver performance would also be welcome.

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