Some Marines Don't Know?


PDA






Ala Dan
July 4, 2003, 01:15 AM
Funny thing happened at work this evening. I got
into a conversation with a Viet-Nam era United
States Marine and said, "Tom, what does the name
Carlos Hathcock mean to you"? He replied, " Um, I
don't think I know him"!

You would think that someone who eats, sleeps, and
breaths the Marine Corp lingo, and is a former war
veteran himself; should know who this hearlded
warrior is? I quickly brought ole' Tom up to date; and
told him that not many men could walk in the late
Gunny's shoes!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

If you enjoyed reading about "Some Marines Don't Know?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
BowStreetRunner
July 4, 2003, 02:59 AM
i just finished a book about him
brave dude
great shot
what more can you say :)
BSR

Steve in PA
July 4, 2003, 07:45 AM
Perhaps he was a cook......or in motor-t during the war.......I would expect a grunt would have a better chance of knowing who you were talking about.

I was in the USMC during the late 70's...early 80's and I was in the grunts......and I can honestly say I never heard of Carlos Hathcock until after I got out and read a book about him.

Ala Dan
July 4, 2003, 10:33 AM
Amazing!

Gunny Sgt. Hathcock's vanity Virginia license plate
said it all:

SNIPER

I read an old article from The Washigton Post,
whereas the Corp raised donations totaling $5000*;
and they delivered it the old fashioned, Marine Corp
way. They ran the 216 miles from Camp Lejune
North Carolina to the Sgt.'s Virginia Beach, VA home!

*these donations were used to help fight MS; the very
diesase that took the life of the famed warrior, at age
57.

ooo-RAH! Semper Fi,

Carry On-
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

MarineTech
July 4, 2003, 11:24 AM
Carlos Hathcock really did not become widely known until the book about him came out. My father, who served with 4th CAG, 3rd MAF in Vietnam from 68-69 had never heard of him until he read the book. I think that Carlos was more well known when I was in the Marines from 89 - 94 than during the Vietnam era.

It reminds me of a saying that I say somewhere:

For every battle honor awarded, 1000 heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered.

I'm glad to see that Carlos Hathcock finally did not fit into that category.

cobb
July 4, 2003, 11:49 AM
Ask him who Chesty Puller was, he should know that name. I would think that all Marines would have read a book about him.

444
July 4, 2003, 12:35 PM
I have always thought that it would be a good idea to add some history to military training. Especially the history of your particular branch of service and your particular unit. I think it would be a great motivator and instill pride in your unit.

I was never a Marine, but have read the book. What motivated me to read the book was ironically the same kind of thing this thread is about. I saw all the wild claims made on the cover and thought to myself; I am surpirsed I never heard of the guy if all this is true. Especially when you consider that he was not only a sniper, but also a GREAT sport shooter prior to becoming a sniper.

Sunray
July 4, 2003, 12:50 PM
Why does it surprise you? Hathcock, from what I hear, wasn't the legend he is now everybody thinks he was. He was a guy doing his job, just like all the rest of them. Without the book he would never have been heard of by anyone. How many guys in any military force know all the guys in every unit everywhere? None. Exactly.

MarineTech
July 4, 2003, 01:00 PM
I have always thought that it would be a good idea to add some history to military training. Especially the history of your particular branch of service and your particular unit. I think it would be a great motivator and instill pride in your unit.

Actually, the Marine Corps is very big on this. As a recruit, you're expected to at least be familiar with Louis B. "Chesty" Puller, Dan Daly, Samuel Nichols, Smedly Butler to name a few. Other big names from Marine Corps history are Herman Hanneken, "Manila" John Basilone, Greg "Pappy" Boyington, Evans F. Carlson, Merritt A. Edson, John A. Lejeune, Joe Foss, Holland Smith, and many many others.

When it comes to snipers Chuck Mawhinney is another name that stands out in recent memory. Chuck's "record" actually exceeded Hathcock's in many ways. If you want a good book on Marine snipers in Vietnam, you should also pick up "13 Cent Killers" by John Culbertson. Very good book about the snipers with 5th Marines.

DigitalWarrior
July 4, 2003, 01:13 PM
You would be amazed how much history they taught us. Marinetech has it right. Chairborne Rangers we may be (4066) but WE ARE RIFLEMEN FIRST.

444
July 4, 2003, 01:13 PM
Sunray, note that I said I am surprised that *I* hadn't heard of him. In reading MarineTech's post, I have heard of pretty much all of those guys and have a very brief idea of who they were including Chuck Mawhinney . It isn't a question of knowing every guy that ever served in the military, it is about knowing the few guys that stand out among the others; Hathcock was one of those.

clem
July 4, 2003, 01:35 PM
I didn't learn of Gy. Sgt. Hathcock until well into my years in the Corps. Marines just don't publicize a special weapon like the Gunny.

Chipperman
July 4, 2003, 03:10 PM
Snipers, I understand, had been stigmatized a bit until more recently. That also may have kept his "fame" lower before now.

Kentucky Rifle
July 5, 2003, 09:31 AM
Kentucky Rifle

4v50 Gary
July 5, 2003, 11:17 AM
Who was Adalbert Waldron & what is he known for?

444
July 5, 2003, 11:49 AM
Did you mean Adelbert Waldron ? :)

Detritus
July 5, 2003, 07:11 PM
Who was Adalbert Waldron & what is he known for?

Sergeant First Class Adelbert F. Waldron.... 9th Infantry Div.

the Army Sniper with the Highest number of Confirmed kills (109) during the Vietnam war. yes that's 6 more confirmed kills than Mawhinney.

the Marines have/had been known to try to tone his record down some by claiming that since, supposedly, most fo Waldron's kills were scored from atop a FSB instead of his actually "stalking" the person, Waldron was more a "sharpshooter" than a "sniper" . this of course is BS esp in light of the record of the man THEY want recorded as the "best sniper of Vietnam" Mawhinney who's ratio of "kills from a guard towner" to "kills in the bush" pretty much mirror those of Waldron.


as to who was better...... neither, both were great snipers. Waldron simply was able to CONFIRM (basicly, walk up search and mark the body after the kill, and have this action witnessed) his killing of six more enemy soldiers than Mawhinney.

Ala Dan
July 5, 2003, 07:23 PM
Sorry guy's, but I've got to take a break and do
some reading about SNIPERS. You see, I just
received these two books via parcel post:

Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills

and

One Shot One Kill


Which should I read first? I hear that both are
great books.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

4v50 Gary
July 5, 2003, 07:27 PM
My mispelling.

Yep. Waldron got 6 more confirmed that Mawhinney. BTW, it's not about body count but doing one's job so you & your buddies return home alive and in one piece.

Detritus
July 6, 2003, 03:36 AM
you have a point,

that is Exactly the goal that EVERYONE should remember.


Dan, read "one shot, One kill" first. read the one that only tells part of the hathcock story first, THEN the one that is more in depth.

a word of advice on "Marine Sniper: 93 confirmed kills"

read it with the following knowlege

It is a great book and those with an interest in Military sharpshooting, or Military history in general should read it. But, the version that was and is still being printed, is NOT the book that Charles Henderson originally set out to have published.

the original, according to Henderson and others involved in the project, was an overveiw of Marine Snipers in general, with focus placed on stories of the establishment of the program during the War and the exploits of selected graduates and instructors.
this original was a bit "beefy" and Henderson's publisher told him to pare it down to a "managable" size, and to narrow the focus down to a single major "player" or core group of players, in the USMC sniping program in Vietnam. this was done b/c at the time it was not beleived that a large "history of marine snipers in Vietnam" type book would sell, while a smaller, "mass market" sized book about a "hero" type could be marketed.
henderson decided (for good reason) that his best canidate for such a focus was Hathcock. so he told the story of HOW hathcock wound up where he did doing what he did. and told as many of Hathcock's personl exploits as he could. but Henderson also fully admits to having credited the Gunny with doing a few things that have never been pinned down to a particular sniper, or were never offically confirmed.

good book, but it MUST be read with the understanding that while it is 3/4 or more, confirmed fact, that the remaining bit has been, due to a publisher's decision, fudged a bit to make a better story and fill it out some.

nothing about this detracts from the book, or from the legacy and heroism of carlos Hathcock. it is simply a fact that those looking for historical accuracy should know.

Ala Dan
July 6, 2003, 06:36 AM
Many thanks for the advice Detritus!:)

I'm sure there was/is a lot of very good professional
Military sniper's out there; and in all likelyhood, some
that we have never heard of? I would imagine that a
lot of them don't go around bragging about their work.

Its my understanding that Gunny Hathcock was more
proud of saving those men from that burning inferno
where he was burned over 70% of his body, than he
was of killing people. He was awarded this nations
second highest award, The Silver Star for those
actions. Also, he was very proud of not losing any men
under his command, when he became a sniper DI.
He definitely was a remarkable person who could
"Talk the Talk, and Walk the Walk". I'm sure I will
enjoy both books; many thanks again for the advice.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Preacherman
July 6, 2003, 09:31 AM
Another very good book on sniping in Vietnam is "Dear Mom" by Joseph Ward. He was taught by Mawhinney, and took over his rifle when Mawhinney left - in fact, it's because he publicized Mawhinney's accomplishments in this book that the latter is today recognized as the Marine's top sniper in Vietnam.

280PLUS
July 6, 2003, 10:12 AM
i was going through this thread and was thinking about why noone had mentioned "dear mom" yet

you just beat me to it!

i always wondered about why hathcock was more well know than muhwhinney (sp?)

possibly because he stayed in to teach the school and retire while they (ward and muhwhinney) got out after their tours(?)

ward was #3 in confirmed kills if i remember correctly, for the usmc, anyhow

a side note, i met an original greenface once who was very upset by all these various spook story books that have been coming out

he said it makes it too easy for the wrong people to put together who did what and where which could lead to reprisal if someone were determined enough to pursue it.

another sidenote

i believe carlos hathcock died an early death due to the results of being exposed to agent orange

someone correct me if i'm wrong

m

MarineTech
July 6, 2003, 11:11 AM
i believe carlos hathcock died an early death due to the results of being exposed to agent orange

To my knowlege, Carlos Hathcock died as a result of complications due to Multiple Sclerosis.

4v50 Gary
July 6, 2003, 11:53 AM
Chuck Mawhinney is a quiet guy and very modest. He worked for the Forest Service after the war and his coworkers never knew about his work over there. He stayed hidden until Joseph Ward mentioned him in Dear Mom. Afterwards some articles appeared and Peter Senich (author of several books on sniping) is suppose to be working on a book about him.

Shooter 2.5
July 6, 2003, 12:31 PM
The one thing I like with all the books out there is they have publicized what these heroes have done and they separated the fact from the legend.

I had someone claim that Hathcock had killed a NV Colonel from a firebase with a borrowed National Match Garand.

I checked the books White Feather, One Shot One Kill and Marine Sniper and that incident doesn't exist. I did read the first NV that Hathcock killed was when he was an MP and he used an M-14.

4v50 Gary
July 6, 2003, 12:33 PM
Purported Hathcock as a MP got 14 to 16 at 600 yds distance using a M-14. Lesson: don't plant mines where a marksman can hit you. :)

BadWolf
July 6, 2003, 03:09 PM
I think it depends on what circles you were in to know who Hathcock was. Of course the book and the interest in snipers made him more known to everybody later, but he was definitely still famous in certain circles during his service in Vietnam. I know a SEAL who made a point to go meet him when passing through some base he was stationed at. Brad, (the SEAL) told me he went into some hut or something where Carlos and several others were a little drunk and shook his hand and said "It's an honor to meet you" and left.

Ala Dan
July 6, 2003, 05:49 PM
How about the 2500 yard shot* that Carlos made on
the 12 year old boy, who had NVA type weaponary
on a bicycle and was headed down the Ho Chi Minh
trail to resupply the Viet-Cong? His first shot actually
destroyed the bicycle; and Carlos was hoping that
the lad would turn and run. But to his surprise, the
kid went for an AK-47; so Carlos nailed him!:D :uhoh:

*FootNote- weapon was a M2 .50 caliber machine gun.
This shot may have actually been from 2500 meters;
instead of yards?

**FootNote- an account of which is in the book
Marine Sniper.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

280PLUS
July 7, 2003, 07:56 AM
"To my knowlege, Carlos Hathcock died as a result of complications due to Multiple Sclerosis."

i did a little search and multiple sclerosis is being called the cause of his death at the few sites i visited

however, there are those who question whether the MS was caused by agent orange or that , more possibly, the effects of agent orange were misdiagnosed as MS

not unusual in the days when the US govt was claiming that agent orange was not the cause of the many mysterious ailments nam vets were experiencing

understand, the longer the govt was able to disclaim the effects of agent orange the longer it had while those affected succumbed.

therefore, every one who succumbed was one less the govt had to pay when it finally admitted to agent orange being the problem

the person EXPOSED gets paid, not the surviving spouse or siblings, so if you die before you get paid, your family loses...

the govt is JUST ONLY RECENTLY, starting to pay those left alive

so lets see, nam was officially over in 1975(?) and i think they finally started paying last year, 2002, so they managed to stretch it about 27 years

and by now, theres not a whole lot left of those who were exposed

MS is/was a great disease for covering up agent orange illnesses as MS has no clear way to be diagnosed, there is nothing available, to this day, that will prove beyond a doubt that MS is what you actually have

MS also mimics quite a few other diseases

MS is almost a catchall diagnosis for when the doctors have no idea what your true diagnosis should be

i mean, think about it, you are the US Govt, do you really want to catch the blame for killing one of your top marines?

ps,,,was that a military doctor that diagnosed Gunny with MS???

hmmmmmmm,,,

please stand by while i return you to the original thread line...

'POOF'

:D

MarineTech
July 7, 2003, 10:01 AM
280Plus, you really might want to check out this product:

http://www.zapatopi.net/afdb.html

And make sure to watch out for those black helicopters.

In all seriousness, do you have actually evidence to corroborate your theory? Do you have locations on where Agent Orange was used, cross referenced with where Hathcock served? My father served as a Marine in Vietnam with 4th CAG, 3rd MAF in the Quang Tri City area of I Corps. Agent Orange WAS used fairly extensively in his area, and he has had no ill effects, now 35 years since.

Yes, there are a large number of veterans that served in Vietnam that have health problems because of Agent Orange. Just as many of us that served in Desert Storm are having health issues for unknown reasons. To my knowlege, the VA admitted to the health issues regarding Agent Orange well before Hathcock passed away. One would think that with the disclosure that was made, if he were indeed ill due to it's use, that it would be documented.

Sometimes a shovel is a shovel, sometimes a spade is a spade, and sometimes MS is just MS.

280PLUS
July 7, 2003, 04:33 PM
i didnt look but i assume its the tin foil hat,,,

anyhow, no i have no such corroboration,

just some vets having a talk one time, just about a year ago

one of them had just received his first payment from the govt for his illnesses attributed to agent orange, and was quite vocal on all that i posted EXCEPT the hathcock story

that i picked up i know not where, ive read, seen and heard a lot of stuff over the years

so with nothing to back it up,

and with all due respect to gunny hathcock

i'll stand corrected

apologies

m

but you know, there WAS a helicopter circling me for quite a while this a.m.

it was green though,,, do those count?

i fought the urge to wave...

:D

280PLUS
July 7, 2003, 07:51 PM
4v50Gary said,

"Chuck Mawhinney is a quiet guy and very modest. He worked for the Forest Service after the war and his coworkers never knew about his work over there."

point well taken,,,

i recently saw a few short clips of him talking about his experiences and he seemed exactly that, quiet and modest.

m

clem
July 7, 2003, 09:32 PM
This will explain "exposure" to Agent Orange.

http://www.lewispublishing.com/research.htm

280PLUS
July 8, 2003, 07:58 AM
the part that sticks in my head is 19 MILLION gallons

another couple of memories from that conversation that i now remember was actually at last years superbowl party

they were spraying it right on top of our troops, he remembered being covered with the stuff

they were told it was harmless and they believed it

and, the most affected were the air crews that mixed and loaded the stuff onto the aircraft, they were exposed literally 24/7

sorry this thread got so far off topic

m

brownie0486
July 8, 2003, 08:13 AM
Agent orange had nothing to do with Gunny Hathcocks MS.

MS is caused by a virus, in women twice as often as men, usually contracted between the ages of 20 and 40.

MS is unknown in areas of the world that experience year round cold weather.

Yes, I know alot about MS. Someone in the family has it. It definately [ Agent Orange ] had nothing to do with the Gunnys MS issues, though I believe he had other health issues as well as the MS.

I talked to the gunny a few years before he died relative sniper training in Va. and our times in the Corps. A real gentleman.

Brownie

Detritus
July 8, 2003, 08:52 AM
though I believe he had other health issues as well as the MS

massive scarring resultant from his rescue of the Marines aboard the Amtrac (it was a USMC amphib. tractor type APC wasn't it?) amoung them.

For those of you who might not know, large areas of scar tissue, can lead to a reduction in range of motion, moderate to severe pain with even every day movement, and in some cases the scarred skin can wind up prone to tears or splits, that are painful if not very apt to bleed profusely.

it is the "medical aftermath" of the Amtrac rescue that ultimatelty lead to Hathcock's retirement, NOT his MS. his MS WAS begining to worsen but at the time of his retirement the USMC oppinion was that it was not a limiting factor in his duties.

My understaing is, that once he was retired the Corps brought him back on as a civilian instructor and advisor to the Program.

280PLUS
July 8, 2003, 09:57 AM
"I talked to the gunny a few years before he died relative sniper training in Va. and our times in the Corps. A real gentleman."

my experience has taught me that the great ones usually are, no matter what job it is they are doing.

having never met him i can tell you thats exactly what i would expect him to be like

i've come to notice that the wannabes are usually the ones with the attitudes...

thanx for straightening me out on this

m

added 7/9 -

i have scarring on my L/I finger from a bout with a bench grinder 15 years ago, to this day it splits and bleeds regularly and causes pain daily

i don't envy the gunny at all having to live with that over a larger scale for most of his life

just another example of his fortitude

in my search i read he was most proud of the fact that he never lost a marine under his command

m

Delgado
January 16, 2008, 03:15 AM
Found this site while doing some research on Military Sniping. In regards to MarineTechs post about 13 Cent Killers. I was a bit confused. I looked it up on Amazon and found out that the author is trash talking Carlos Hatchcock, one of the snipers I'm currently researching.

Several of the reviews on Amazon for 13 Cent Killers (http://www.amazon.com/13-Cent-Killers-Snipers-Vietnam/dp/0345459148) states:

For reasons known best to Culbertson, several times throughout his book he calls to question the ability and veracity of Carlos Hathcock, the legendary Marine sniper. Without naming Hathcock, he dismisses out of hand many of Hathcock's accomplishments without providing a single document, official or otherwise, or even quoting the usual unnamed sources. He merely labels it nonfactual. For example, he describes Hathcock's elimination of an enemy company in Elephant Valley as "BS".

Also:

The author out right accuses others of lying about their achievements; yet, Culbertson does not provide proof or reason for these accusations. Culbertson accuses one of the most prominent Marine snipers, Carlos Hatchcock, of either lying about the number of kills or of not being a Marine sniper at all. Hatchcock is one of the most well known snipers in military history, and a Marine hero. Culbertson should site his sources if he is going to make accusations like this.

I own several books about sniping, including a couple about Gunny Hatchcock and I just found the above quotes a bit wierd. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks in advance for your replies.

Wes Janson
January 16, 2008, 03:42 AM
All I can say is, there's just no way someone could deliberately hit a moving bicycle at 2500 or even 2000 yards with a scoped M2HB, and then deliberately hit the young kid riding it with a second shot. That's not skill, that's astronomical luck, because the total system-the weapon, the platform, the optics, and the ammo-simply aren't capable of that shot. Even assuming you could get 1 MOA out of Ma Deuce (which is a hell of an assumption), that's a theoretical 20-inch group at 2000 yards, on a moving target only a couple of inches wide. If range estimation is off by more than a couple yards, the shot would miss entirely.

Delgado
January 16, 2008, 03:49 AM
All I can say is, there's just no way someone could deliberately hit a moving bicycle at 2500 or even 2000 yards with a scoped M2HB, and then deliberately hit the young kid riding it with a second shot. That's not skill, that's astronomical luck, because the total system-the weapon, the platform, the optics, and the ammo-simply aren't capable of that shot. Even assuming you could get 1 MOA out of Ma Deuce (which is a hell of an assumption), that's a theoretical 20-inch group at 2000 yards, on a moving target only a couple of inches wide. If range estimation is off by more than a couple yards, the shot would miss entirely.


I thought that particular shot was done at 1000 meters out. It's a bit early in the morning right now for me so I'm probably confusing yards and meters. Also, would you happen to have any opinion on my previous post? :confused:

Hunter0924
January 16, 2008, 04:02 AM
Carlos Hathcock (White Feather) is a hero of mine and many of us in the Marine Corps talked about his feats over many a cold beer.
I would hope to be the marksman he was one day.

Delgado
January 16, 2008, 04:11 AM
Carlos Hathcock (White Feather) is a hero of mine and many of us in the Marine Corps talked about his feats over many a cold beer.
I would hope to be the marksman he was one day.

I'm guessing that the references Culbertson makes are nothing more then bs. Since the link I provided seems to be the time I've ever seen someone talk about Gunny Hathcock like that.

Still makes me wonder why though... :confused:

209
January 16, 2008, 06:32 AM
The main thrust of the thread-

Many Marines in during the 60s and 70s never heard of Hathcock. He was not yet among the Marine legends. We all knew of Chesty and I can recall laying in my bunk saying, “Goodnight Chesty wherever you are!” as a nightly practice.

As to the book, 13 cent Killers, I haven’t read it. The author, John J. Culbertson, has this written as his background.

John J. Culbertson served with the 2/5, 1st Marine Division, at A Hoa, Republic of Vietnam, from December 1966 to July 1967. Mr. Culbertson served as a Marine Rifleman, MOS 0311, on Operation Tuscaloosa. He completed 1st MarDiv Sniper School in Da Nang, where he earned the secondary MOS 8541. He was wounded in action and earned three Purple Hearts. He also was awarded the Combat Action Ribbon, Presidential Unit Citation, Navy Unit Commendation, Meritorious Unit Commendation, Vietnam Cross of Gallantry with Palm, Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal, and multiple expert rifleman badge awards. Mr. Culbertson received an honorable discharge from the U.S. Marine Corps in 1971 at the rank of sergeant.

Maybe he wants to be as well known as Hathcock and wrote what amounts to nothing more than “sour grapes”. Maybe he knows something the rest of us don’t. Who knows...

If you use Culbertson’s list of medals, ribbons, and awards as a barometer of his actions in the service it should be noted Hathcock was awarded the Silver Star and was probably also awarded most or all of the ones Culbertson lists (though I'm not sure how many Purple Hearts were awarded to Hathcock). Hathcock was twice nominated for the Medal of Honor. Using that as a basis of performance, I’d say Hathcock did some brave dangerous things. Hathcock also won top honors at the National Rifle matches at Camp Perry Ohio, including the Wimbledon Cup in 1965. That’s not an easy thing to accomplish. I'll continue to believe Carlos Hathcock was one-hell-of-a-shot.

Double Naught Spy
January 16, 2008, 08:32 AM
Some Marines Don't Know?

Right, some Marines don't know. What is the big deal? Lots of Marines don't know a lot of Marine history. Being a Marine does not make you a walking encyclopedia.

Most could not tell you who these fellows were and what distinguished them from others.
Louis Cukela
Daniel Daly
Earnest A. Janson
John Joseph Kelly
Mataj Kocak
John Henry Pruitt

Anybody know? These are the creme de al creme of the Marines. These are Marines who have earned double Medals of Honor that are considered part of the listing under the Congressional Medals of Honor.
http://www.cmohs.org/recipients/double.htm

Vermont
January 16, 2008, 08:52 AM
All I can say is, there's just no way someone could deliberately hit a moving bicycle at 2500 or even 2000 yards with a scoped M2HB, and then deliberately hit the young kid riding it with a second shot.

I am not sure how true that is, since I have never shot with that equipment or at that distance. However, I do know that there is no way that the kid could have hit Hathcock with an AK-47 from 2000 yards away, especially since he probably couldn't even see Hathcock, so I don't see why that second shot that killed the kid was necessary. He could have started shooting at the bicycle and rifles. That would have stopped the transportation of the rifles just as effectively.

I put the book down in disgust the first time I tried to read it, because of that scene. I picked up the book again recently when I was in need of some reading material and I decided to give Hathcock the benefit of the doubt, since I have never been in combat.

XDKingslayer
January 16, 2008, 09:54 AM
I have always thought that it would be a good idea to add some history to military training. Especially the history of your particular branch of service and your particular unit. I think it would be a great motivator and instill pride in your unit.

I was never a Marine...

Then let me stop you right there.

History of the Marine Corps is drilled into you at boot camp. While marching to and from places, drill instructors will constantly teach history and test you on it over and over again until it's seated as tightly in your brain as cleaning your rifle.

While I was at boot camp in 1992 Carlos Hathcock wasn't part of that history. Names like Chesty Puller, Smedley Butler, Dan Daly, Archibald Henderson were. There were historical Commandants or people that achieved things much greater than Hathcock. People with 5 Silver Stars, and Medal of Honors on their chests. Not saying that Hathcock isn't deserving, he's just not a part of the history that keeps the Marine Corps alive. However, people like Ira Hayes, Franklin Sousley, Rene Gagnon, Harlon Block, John Bradley, and Michael Strank were.

Howerver, usually by MCT, most Marines know who he was. You can pretty much forget about getting a copy of his book One Shot One Kill and the PX as Camp Gieger usually has an entire wall dedicated to it.

DragonFire
January 16, 2008, 10:07 AM
so I don't see why that second shot that killed the kid was necessary

In war, you don't just kill people who are immediately able to kill you. The "kid" was armed, and actively aiding the enemy. Seems like a justifiable target. Maybe not a desirable one, but still a target.

Lots of our guys were killed by kids and old women (among other "non-combatants").

brownie0486
January 16, 2008, 12:37 PM
MS is/was a great disease for covering up agent orange illnesses as MS has no clear way to be diagnosed, there is nothing available, to this day, that will prove beyond a doubt that MS is what you actually have

MS also mimics quite a few other diseases

MS is almost a catchall diagnosis for when the doctors have no idea what your true diagnosis should be

The medical profession has been able to accurately diagnose MS since MRI scans have been around. There's no question of who has it, who doesn't have MS in medical terms.

There's also 4 types of MS, one that takes you pretty quickly and the others that you can live with for decades.

Primary progressive
Secondary progressive
Relapsing remitting -- the most common
Benign -- the mildest symptoms and least disabling

Relapsing remitting can advance to one of the more aggressive/progressive types.

I'm quite sure Hathcock was properly diagnosed, if not initially, then later after the medical profession caught up with the MRI scan technology in the 80's.

While I was at boot camp in 1992 Carlos Hathcock wasn't part of that history.

When I was in boot camp, Carlos was MAKING history.:D

If memory serves well enough, the shot he made was 2250 as his longest shot. It held as the longest combat shot until some Canadian sniper in Iraq/Affy broke it shooting something like 2400 meters

Brownie

XDKingslayer
January 16, 2008, 02:20 PM
When I was in boot camp, Carlos was MAKING history.

And when you go outside, deer line up to lick you...:)

brownie0486
January 16, 2008, 02:31 PM
I'm too old for that stuff anymore:D

Brownie

Rshooter
January 16, 2008, 02:35 PM
Some Marines do know.....The Army had some wonderful snipers that worked at night using M14's and night scopes that decimated the enemy. They were not publicized because they were a "secret" weapon. As history goes and as someone mentioned earlier many heroes fade off unheard of. I am not trying to take anything away from the Gunny but I am trying to recognize all of the others who served. :o

209
January 17, 2008, 04:37 AM
brownie0486


When I was in boot camp, Carlos was MAKING history.


:D

I remember the DIs telling us about some excellent marksmen who had been Marines when getting us hyped up for the rifle range. I won't post here who they mentioned. In today's PC world, people would take offensive. :evil:

1911Tuner
January 17, 2008, 09:32 AM
Hathcock's 2500 Yard Shot...Here's the skinny that I got from somebody who claimed to have been on-site.

The weapon was sandbagged in and preregistered on a designated spot...not to engage individual enemy personnel...but to damage vehicles. When a vehicle passed a designated point, observed by the spotter, the signal was given to fire, so that the bullet and the vehicle would meet at the target area. Sorta like the old VASCAR speed traps. Line to line distance, and calculated speed.

A spotter noticed movement, and determined that it was an enemy soldier, scanning the area with field glasses...and guessed to be a forward observer attempting to figure out where the fire was coming from that was damaging their trucks...and a bet was struck. He moved close to the designated impact point.

It was noted that within a second or two after the shot fired, that the soldier...kneeling at the time of the shot...stood up and was struck high on the chest. It was reckoned that if he hadn't stood up, the shot would have gone over his head.

Anyway...That's the story I got. Dunno how true, but it sounds plausible.
I'd place it in the same category as Billy Dixon's 7/8ths mile hit on a Kiowa warrior with a .50 caliber Sharps rifle. About 99.5% luck.

GRIZ22
January 17, 2008, 01:06 PM
I think that Carlos was more well known when I was in the Marines from 89 - 94 than during the Vietnam era.


This is true. Fame usually follows the career by at least a few years.

it's not about body count but doing one's job so you & your buddies return home alive and in one piece.
__________________


Agreed. Besides who's the better sniper, the guy with 500 200-400 yard kills ore the guy with 100 800-1000 yard kills? They both are very good.

MoralPluralismsBarrel
January 17, 2008, 01:21 PM
:what: Im enlisting here pretty soon ( As a Tanker, I ride my weapon :D) and I knew who Hathcock was in 6th grade. The fact a Marine doesnt know this is surprising. I orginally wanted to enlist as a sniper but decided not to and the moment I said sniper, my recruiter immediatly mentioned Hathcock. hm.....

Detritus
January 17, 2008, 02:51 PM
I won't post here who they mentioned. In today's PC world, people would take offensive.

I'm pretty sure that you are refering to Lee H. Oswald and Charles Whitmann...

that little tidbit has been completely out in the open since the release of "Full Metal Jacket".

and if anyone that takes offense at those facts, is trying to blame training for the results of mental illness.

If you enjoyed reading about "Some Marines Don't Know?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!