[Bezoar]

When does a person just stop looking at or listening to what the so called gurus of the handgun world have to say about specific models and brands?

Its like everytime i can almost say, "yeah that would be a good first handgun from what everybody on such and such a forum/magazine say" someone comes along with a list of "defects" for that specific model of handgun?

[Tom Servo]

When does a person just stop looking at or listening to what the so called gurus of the handgun world have to say about specific models and brands?
Usually, when they start presenting themselves as gurus. :)

[Standing Wolf]

Usually, when they start presenting themselves as gurus.

This is America. We have a healthy, long-standing distrust of those who appoint themselves this, that, or anything else.

[W.E.G.]

I'll see your guru, and raise you a poobah and a wazoo.

[sm]

Is the person sharing life experiences and observations
or
"telling" , "parroting" and "chest thumping" to feel part of a community?

Has the person been around sometime, has years of experience
or
Did they start shooting only a few years ago?

Is this person centered and is so because of living life for as long as they with "Street Smarts" gleaned from surviving the streets, conflicts while in the service, and continued quality interaction
or
Part of the Ego Training Loop.
Instructor or Groupie, either one, just they just need each other to feed egos.


Let me see, I have already used Bob Brister, Pat Rogers, Awerbuck this week for examples...

Tom Givens.

Who?

Rangemaster, Memphis,TN.

Why should I care about him and what he says about guns?

Tom Givens spent over 25, maybe 30 years on the Streets of Memphis, one of the most dangerous places to reside, work and attend College.
Plus years since he has since starting Rangmaster

His CCW students have been IN MORE Gunfights than any other CCW training facility in the US.

That is why.

Someone from Up, down, left right coast that is trying to make a buck, or a student that feeds ego from attending said ego tripper, is not going to give REAL Street Savvy advice on what works for a Gun in a Gunfight.

Tom Givens earned his stature and respect. He continues to earn by training himself with such things as being part of the Study Group at NTI...

Nobody is most likely going to be at your gunfight - Awerbuck

[DrLaw]

There's gotta be a story behind this question. Care to spill it? :rolleyes:

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[YosemiteSam357]

As you gain knowledge in the gun world you're more able to divine true nuggets of wisdom from general self-serving babble. It happens in life in general, but is very obvious in this microcosm. Gun forums are at least as bad as the magazine writer and "gun store conversation" world, too. Well, maybe not as bad, as there is usually some useful information to be gleaned online.

I'm really heartened to see more people picking up on the idea that more people complain about bad guns than they praise good ones. That's a big factor in any discussion. It's just human nature.

Also, once you learn to accept that no gun or caliber is perfect, everything is a tradeoff, and there really isn't anything new under the sun, you'll be that much closer to achieving firearms ownership zen.

-- Sam

[Geronimo45]

Gun forums are at least as bad as the magazine writer and "gun store conversation" world, too. Well, maybe not as bad, as there is usually some useful information to be gleaned online.
Don't know about that... seems that you'll get more informed opinions on the internet. If someone says something off the wall "9mm overpenetrates, .45 knocks 'em flat", there's usually someone in the wings to correct that (false) assumption. I made that assumption myself, and was corrected on the point.

Generally, I get a little cross-eyed when someone starts trumpeting how this gun or that is latest and greatest, all new in principle, can stop a charging bull with muzzle blast alone.

[SkiLune]

Doubt any and all who express even the slightest doubt that the Glock is the greatest handgun ever made... :neener:

[pax]

I disbelieve anyone, online or elsewhere, who says stuff that contradicts what I've seen with my own two eyes.

Funnily enough, though, the more I've seen with my own two eyes, the more apt I am to discover that what inexperienced people believe and repeat isn't always congruent with reality as it is understood by people who've seen a bit more.

As an example: a guy who has a single, great experience with a certain brand of gun might be tempted to think that everyone who bad-mouths that brand is just stupid -- since his gun worked just fine. Someone who has seen a lot of different guns over the years, including many of that brand, is more apt to realize that, by and large, some brands are going to be more reliable than others.

So bottom line? If you write something that disagrees with my own experience, I won't believe you right off the bat. But if it turns out that you've had a broader experience in some area than I have, I'm more apt to believe that my own specific but narrow experience might not trump your more-varied understanding.

pax

[DogBonz]

The tell me that they "cocked the hammer on their Glock"...:p

[Neophyte1]

Glean; I believe is the correct word/wording.
We that experience and have experienced have a basic understanding.
My Stuff is the BEST Stuff
My insecurity with myself will cause me to fight till death because I'm righteous.
It doesn't make a dang whether my brand, and your brand are exactly the same; My Stuff is BEtter.
My nose is long from looking down at the little people.
Cause My Stuff is BEtter.

Folks: the good Lord gave me sense enough to buy shoes, and guess I'll walk away; From me; Cause my Shoes are better than My Shoes.

Kinda stupid aint it

I'm proud of the folks and friends in my life; they accept this poor pathetic excuse for what he is.
Bring what you brung and we will enjoy it together, don't be bothered with the "NAME" branding.
It is the Person not the Shoes; that will be sitting at my table.

Craig

[40SW]

A <<Guru >>(Sanskrit: गुरू), is a teacher in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Sikhism, as well as in many new religious movements.

A proficient, card carrying member of the gun culture:
aka <<Counterguru.>>

[christcorp]

"Doubt any and all who express even the slightest doubt that the Glock is the greatest handgun ever made... ":neener:

ooooo, ouuuuuch, hmmmm,???? Now, if you had said doubt anyone who had the slightest doubt that SIGSAUER is the greatest handgun ever made, I'd agree with you. :D Hee Hee... Later... Mike.....

[esmith]

If people say something where they sound as if they know of a guns defect, then i usually wont listen to them. Like if they say something like this, "Ahh those guns suck cause they are always prone to rusting". If they say something like, "I have heard that those guns rust easily if you dont take care of them," then i might listen to them.

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

I t seems that the more I learn , the less I know !
I have learned a great deal from all of you on the forum over the past couple of months ! Thankyou !

[Shooter973]

When I see a glowing article about this new whizbang new firearm and then look on the oppisite page and theres an ad from the gun maker trying to sell me the same firearm. And reading or hearing about some make of firearm (Glock, Sig, CZ,etc.) that it is the best thing ever invented. I'll have to handle it and shoot it a lot before I'll believe any of the HYPE surrounding them. :scrutiny:

[armedandsafe]

more people complain about bad guns than they praise good ones.

If you don't believe this is human nature at work, go read any of the mainstream media junk. "Good news is not NEWS."

Pops

[HankB]

A guru's credibility goes down when he takes personal offense to someone who doesn't kneel at his feet and accept the knowledge he deigns to provide . . . sometimes he will label his critics with scatological terms.

A guru's credibility goes down when he starts hawking a product which has a marketing tie-in with him or his business.

A guru's credibility goes down when he begins recommending things made by a company in which he has a financial interest.

A guru's credibility goes down when I experience results with a product which are completely at odds which what he related through his writing.

A guru's credibility drops when he decides to use his print column in a gun rag to launch a general attack on internet forums such as this.

This doesn't mean that the gurus are liars or nincompoops (though it might!), it just means that their writings ought to be regarded with a more critical eye.

[CU74]

I stopped listening in 1984. Nowadays, if I don't SEE it on The High Road, I pretty much ignore it................

[EddieCoyle]

I've been in manufacturing for almost 30 years and learned a long time ago that when you're making a bunch of something, occasionally a good product will come out bad and a bad product will come out good.

I trust very few people's opinions on the subject of what's good and bad because their opinion is going to be based on a very small sample size.

[PzGren]

When personal opinion is dressed up as scientific facts, my b.s. flag comes up and I just give up.

That flag is tattered from use:)

[dhoomonyou]

After YOU shoot the gun in question and make your own decision.

[medmo]

I always trust in the Word of The Gurus........ when I agree with them.

[TimboKhan]

I guess I use them as guides, but I don't think I worship at the feet of any particular guru. I have long held that the 1911 is not the be all end all of pistol design, and that pretty much goes in the face of every guru out there....

That being said, I think some of these guys have the goods. Jeff Cooper was certainly worthy of respect, and I think Mas Ayoob is too. Respect doesn't mean hanging on every word they say, but I don't think it hurts to listen to their opinions with an open mind.

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

maybe we shoould just switch gurus until we find one that tells us what we want to hear ?!

[Bezoar]

Its just disgusting, some are sooo hyped up on what they say that they say anything, do anything so their "tests" come out the way they want.

For example only, I looked up the Taurus Gaucho revolvers the other day. Gunblasts Jeff Quinn, was rather happy with the one he got from the factory. he did lots of nice scientific testing with different ammo and with actual factory style pistol shooting rigs.

Thise other so called "guru" compared it to another low priced entry level SAA clone. Somehow the taurus shot as poorly as the tester/guru felt it would before shooting started.

In this case i think Mr Quinn is far more accurate, sure I might be biased but from the Gunblast site i have a feeling he is far better then the other guy.

SO how does one go about figuring out credentials of those who are and arenot gurus? is it classes they went to, magazines they write for, or is it "this guy hunts and carrys big bore revolvers all the time and can make them perform" while " this guy has a degree in journalism?"

[RCouch]

Guns are like everything else, you will always find someone who has all the info and is always right and usually feels that they are blessed with that knowledge.
I usually listen to everyone good and bad and then try to sift through what I've heard and come to my own conclusions.
Dr. Daniel Vestal was my pastor at Tallowood Baptist Church in Houston in the early 1990's and he once said that "no one ever learned anything while their mouth was open". I wonder how some of those that always express their superior knowledge ever had the chance to learn.

[2RCO]

My best advice is don't go with the new great gun everyone is raving about it'll be a piece of crap down the road according to those same clowns. Gun writers are full of it for the most part and we are all biased. I'm a 1911 nut so they are always best unless they have MIM--I'll shut up now. Take advice but take it with a grain of salt.

[tipoc]

"When does a person just stop looking at or listening to what the so called gurus of the handgun world have to say about specific models and brands?"

Well you stop when you want to. This may be when you learn enough on your own to know what you need more information on and what you no longer need info on. Or when you learn to seperate the hype and a writers or instructors personal preferences from objective fact. Ask the same question about cars or trucks, video or stereo equpiment, computers, camping or fishing gear, sports equipment, etc. and at some point you'll get my point.

"Its like everytime i can almost say, "yeah that would be a good first handgun from what everybody on such and such a forum/magazine say" someone comes along with a list of "defects" for that specific model of handgun?"

Let's rephrase the question; "A good first handgun for you, according to the guys over to the High Road, would be the Booty Blaster Xtreeem but according to the latest issue of Gun Tests and the instructors over to 'Don't Shoot Yourself In The Foot School of Gunology' this gun is a piece of crap"

But what is your opinion? And what is it based on? If solely on what you've read and heard well maybe all you can say is "This is what I've read and heard take it for what it's worth". Nothing wrong with saying that cuz it's true and you're not pretending to know more than you do. Or you can tell me what you started out shooting and whether it helped or hindered you develop your skills. Base your opinion on what you know and know when some of what you know is second or third hand.

tipoc

[christcorp]

Actually, I don't think you should ever stop listening to other people. When you stop listening, you stop learning. Even in every lie and line of B.S. will always lye some truth.

The objective however should be to not blindly obey, follow, believe, etc... anyone else's opinion or suggestion just because they said it. Take everything they say, along with everything everyone else says about the topic, and decide for yourself. If possible, get first hand experience for yourself.

There are obviously some definite flag raising B.S. meter statements made by some. If you see definitive words such "All", "Always", "Never", etc... then that's a sign to be carefull. We know for a fact that not "ALL" guns of a certain brand have a problem and not "ALL" customers feel that way. On the other hand, if I hear 7 people in a row say that a certain gun is a problem, and only 2 say that it's fine, I may be a little suspicious of the gun. Anyway, I don't think you should ever discount anything anyone says. There's "Always" some value in what they say. Later... Mike....

[MCgunner]

See, I know what I like. If the "guru" agrees with me, I'll read his "advice". LOL! I think 90 percent of the 1911's popularity is the guru factor. I don't care for the things at all, prefer a good DA gun. They're not that accurate, they're finicky with anything but ball, and I just want a DA first shot. Now, I ain't sayin' all 1911s are inaccurate, just that I can get a gun out of the box from Sig or Ruger or HK or Glock or whatever that'll out shoot all, but the most well tuned 1911s and still perfect and rugged and reliable with most hollowpoints. And, then, there's the big bullet .45 gurus that make up mathematics to prove their points. Those mathematics are normally based on momentum, because it supports their ".45 is the only way" theories.

So, I know what I like. I read the 'zines and if the article agrees with me, I'll read it. If it don't, I just write that "guru" off as an ignorant moron and move on. ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

Just shoot a bunch of guns and determine for yourself what works for you. Magazine articles, by and large, are yappin' about the latest and greatest to sell guns and if you keep chasing the elusive "perfect weapon" according do 'zines, you'll never be satisfied. Heck, I don't know if they even write articles about revolvers anymore and I carry a revolver a lot. No, it's not the latest and greatest thing to come down the pike and no guru that I know of really praises revolvers. The ones that did are all dead. So what? They work for me! I really don't care what the "experts" say. I don't even bother picking up those tacticool rags like "Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement" anymore. I don't need no picante rails, flash lights, range finders, bottle openers, or mace cans hangin' off my CCW.

[mavracer]

sorry I wasn't paying attention whats this thread about.

[YosemiteSam357]

I stop reading when I see "Poll" in the topic title. :)

-- Sam

[hemiram]

I know several self annointed "gurus". One guy thinks 1911's are the only handgun to own, and gets angry every time he sees me and I tell him "no", when he asks me if I finally got a 1911. I had two of them, and they were both train wrecks. I notice he had FTF problems with both of his custom 1911's he brought to shoot at a mutual friend's house. If I'm paying $2000 for a gun, it should shoot FMJ without any problems. All the non 1911's, my Witness, my friend's Sig, and a Taurus 24/7 Pro all gobbled up the same ammo he was shooting. And yes, the 1911's had been broken in.

A actual friend felt the same way until recently, when his collection of high dollar 1911s were made to look bad compared to a .45 Eaa Witness and a CZ97B. Besides, I do not like the grip on a 1911 at all. The CZ type grip is much better, IMO.

Another guy is a Ruger fanatic, he hates Dan Wesson revolvers, says they are "junk", yet I've never had any real problems with any of the six model 15's I've owned. Not that Rugers are bad, but I just didn't like the Security Six I had a long time ago, and in general think Ruger revolvers are odd looking.

I stopped listening to gurus a long time ago, I buy what I like, and, if possible, what I can fix myself (DW). So far, I've done very well not paying attention. If only I could shoot like I did 20 years ago....

[sig226]

The best advice I've ever seen in this regard was a tv commercial about train crossings.

Stop. Look. Listen.

Do that for a while at the range and you'll get very good at separating the wheat from the chaff.

[glassman]

I always listen to what other people have to say but then back it up with research before making a decision. Everyone on the different forums has an opinion and the guys in the shops are trying to sell their wares. It can get confusing and frustrating but in the end, there's no substitute for doing your homework.

[welldoya]

For the most part I usually ignore what gun writers say. They are usually just selling ad space.
I've found on most forums people will hype whatever gun they happen to own thereby reinforcing their belief that they made the right choice. It's like they really are trying to convince themselves they did OK in the choice they made .
You've got to hold and preferably shoot the gun yourself. Sure, look at what people are saying and if it's all bad, you might want to reconsider but if just a few people don't like it, I would probably ignore those posts.
I just bought an S&W 642. I went and looked at one, held it and put it in my pocket. That was enough to convince me I needed that gun. Then when I came out to The High Road and saw 170 pages on "The 642 Club" thread and it was all good, that was just reinforcement. (there I go convincing myself that I made the right choice )

[Serpico]

I've been shooting for over 30 years and know quite a bit about guns...I got my first handgun, a Colt automatic Detective Special when I was 18. Since then I have owned a bunch of G-frame Smith&Wesson semi auto revolvers, along with some double action Glock 38 specials and 9mm rimfires...so feel free to ask me anything.

[welldoya]

When I first started reading Serpico's post, I thought "What the heck ?" but then when he mentioned the G frame Smiths and the rare 9mm rimfire, I could see he was indeed an expert.

[hamourkiller]

The Guru's are GOOD!

See Honey the reason I need another gun is right here! Just read how bad this one is and how gooooood that one is!

Works every once in awhile and well woth the effort!

[mballai]

There's a big difference in listening and following.

It helps to ask yourself if you are asking the right questions, with the right motivations and that you plan to do something with the information.

If someone asks which is the better gun instead of asking what guns are appropriate to do this or that, I know they are in trouble. Nobody really cares what gun is better in a gunfight or a match.

It also helps to ask the right people. I don't care if you were in a gunfight or not. In all likelihood the gunfight you were in will not remotely match the one I might be in. Yes I want to know what you experienced, but that won't help me pick a gun.

I don't even care if you are/were Mr. SWAT/Ranger/Police Officer/PhD/NRA Certified. I'm not. I can't carry an MP5 or M14 in my neighborhood and I don't get a bullet proof anything.

I just want to know what will work for me and how to determine what I might use to enhance it.

And one more thing. I no longer give weight to what someone behind the counter might say unless I independently verify it. I spent years behind the counter and other than specific product information know that I can't depend on almost anything I hear there. Do your homework. If they don't care about how the gun feels in your hands and if the sights work for you and if you can operate the gun easily, go somewhere they do.