So i want my first rifle for HD and Plinking. Saiga or (gasp) Hi Point?


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indie
August 20, 2007, 11:57 AM
i was almost sold on a saiga, but now im thinking. Hi point. Not looking to spend more than 400 dollars.

1. Saiga 7.62x39 rifle, Skeletonized Stock

Pros
1. Top Notch Russian AK-47 Reliability/Durability
2. Value will increase
3. Can be converted to AK-47 for hi capacity
4. Longer Range + More Powerful Cartridge
5. can penetrate cover and body armor
6. Can hunt with it and can make good shtf type rifle. (if necessarry)
7. Can get skeleton stock for pistol grip type handling.

Cons
1. Ammo harder to find. Costs a bit more than 9mm
2. Ammo overpenetration. Goes through people and walls. Possible Bad News in home defense situation.
3. magazines are expensive.



2. Hi Point 995, ATI Stock
Pros
1. Reliable and accurate
2. Pistol Caliber. Most common caliber. Good for home defense & Plinking
3. Lower price
4. Can be easilly souped up with laser, red dot and extra mags
5. Light weight and maneuverable with pistol grip
6. 9mm out of 16 inch barrell increases energy
7. Lifetime Warranty and Good Support
8. Pistol caliber can be used at indoor range nearby

Cons
1. Hi Point negative reputation
2. ugly and build quality
3. 10 round mag capacity
4. Not effective against body armour



I was almost sold on a saiga, i still really want one, but for practical purposes im starting to lean more towards the hi point.

magazine costs, 922r hassles preventing higher capacities, inability to use at nearby indoor range, and overpenetration are the big things that neutralized the saiga for my purposes

the cons of hi point are really no big deal to me. Only high capacity and lack of effectiveness against body armor. With the ATI stock and laser, its a decent looking and functioning rifle.


anyway, i hope to get some more opinions before i decide. I need your 2 cents.

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strat81
August 20, 2007, 12:09 PM
Cons
1. Ammo harder to find. Costs a bit more than 9mm
2. Ammo overpenetration. Goes through people and walls. Possible Bad News in home defense situation.
3. magazines are expensive.

1) All Saiga calibers are easy to find. IMO, if Wal-mart carries it, it's "easy to find". Rifle calibers are generally more expensive than pistol calibers.

2) <Sigh> Go the range with some sheet rock and see how much your 9mm penetrates. Bring a steel entry door too. 9mm penetrates just fine. Miss your target under stress in a populated area, it doesn't matter if you're shooting 223, x39, .40 or 9x19. Same goes for shotguns. For more info on penetration, visit http://www.theboxotruth.com/

3) They're not cheap, but they are readily available. I don't think hi-point mags are $10 like AR-15 mags are.


GET THE SAIGA. Besides price, it is better in every way.

EdLaver
August 20, 2007, 12:11 PM
That seems like alot of hassle to get the ati stock and the hi-point. I suggest spending a little extra and just getting the Beretta CX4. It's already good to go out of the box and mags arent that expensive for it. Plus you can get higher capacity mags for it too. I completely understand the pistol caliber carbine / over penetration of 7.62 x 39 thing and in my opinion either way you go...Beretta or Saiga or Hi-Point you should be satisfied.

Avenger29
August 20, 2007, 12:18 PM
Go with the Saiga. The Hipoint is a fun gun, but I'd prefer a Saiga myself. It is just a better rifle to me.

indie
August 20, 2007, 12:28 PM
strat. My local walmarts dont stock 7.62. Which would be the caliber i want if i get a saiga. I cant just run to the store and grab a box anytime. Especially not at a good price. So thats why im saying availability, as in convenience of being able to pick it up whenever i run across it. I wont just happen to be in a store and find a good price on 7.62. I will be able to do that with 9mm.

Also, on # 2, 7.62 is much more likely to zip through a human body and then through drywall.
If 7.62 was not a notorious penetrating round and was as commonly available, i would not even be considering the high point right now.


to Ed. I can find the hi point in the ATI stock configuration with a laser and red dot for around 300. And have basically the same functionality and look of the Beretta Storm for alot less. Only thing is the magazine capacity =(. But i'm on a tight budget currently and i could really get a both the high point and the saiga for about the price of the beretta. If i had that much available to invest in a rifle, id definitely get the saiga and the high point. I might end up eventually getting both, but right now, i'm looking at getting the better rifle for my needs.

indie
August 20, 2007, 12:32 PM
i had a feeling everyone would say go with the saiga.
but then at the same time, everyone says an AK is not a good home defense weapon

and hd/personal defense is my primary purpose. Followed by fun and other utility.

i have been drooling over a saiga for about a month. LOL but my mind is telling me that i should get the more practical home defense weapon.

I also wouldnt have as much opportunity to shoot the saiga as a pistol carbine.

MrTuffPaws
August 20, 2007, 12:41 PM
Comparing 9mm to 7.62x39 is like....well, comparing 9mm to 7.62x39. One is a handgun ammo, and the other is a rifle round.

9mm is a good defense round. It will still go through walls like butter though. In the land of military rounds, the 7.62x39 is consider a good penetrator, so expect more walls to get holed and what ever is behind them as well to.

If you are really worried about over penetration, you should go with your normal run of the mill pump shotgun.

MD_Willington
August 20, 2007, 12:59 PM
Mags aren't really hard to find, I grabbed 3 OEM 10 round mags from Krebs for $18 (.223) a piece... (7.62x39 are usually $16 ea.)

indie
August 20, 2007, 01:05 PM
Mr Tuff Paws for other reasons, i chose to go with a rifle over a shotgun.

especially considering i have a rather small/petite wife. I have recently gotten her to actually go to the range .. weildability (pistol style grip the saiga skeletonized and hi point), recoil, ability to practice, expense of practice, having to pump to chamber each shot, shot pattern, etc all made me opt for the carbine/rifle over the shotgun.


Up untill yesterday, i really had my heart set on a saiga because i wanted an ak variant and with it being in my price range, but i really need a home defense primary weapon that my wife can also use easilly, and something we can both get plenty of practice with.

Saiga, i probably wont get to break out and shoot it very often. While there is an indoor range less than a mile from my home.


Saiga says i'm the gun you want
Hi Point says i'm the gun you need.

Coronach
August 20, 2007, 01:06 PM
This is not even a question.

Saiga, if it is one-or-the-other.

The hi-point is a fun little carbine, but the Saiga is a fun little carbine that can also be made into a serious fighting rifle (if it's not serious enough for you in its present trim) with a little bit of elbow grease and a handful of parts. I would not even consider them in the same category (which, they aren't, really...one is a pistol caliber carbine, the other is a rifle caliber carbine...completely different capabilities). Of course, Option C (Get Both) will give you a capable PCC for plinking and an RCC for plinking and other uses. But if I was limited to one, it would be the Saiga without second thoughts or regrets.

Mike

B.D. Turner
August 20, 2007, 01:13 PM
The FBI did a bunch of testing on bullet penetration. The 9mm is no slouch and will keep going and going through walls. I like the hi point and for the money is a great little rifle. If I were going to use it in the house I would get some fragmenting ammo just for that reason. I would not want to live next door to someone who is using a 7.62x39 for his only personal protection.

Coronach
August 20, 2007, 01:17 PM
I also wouldnt have as much opportunity to shoot the saiga as a pistol carbine.I missed this on the first pass.

This changes the rules a little. And, you put it in the correct terms. Before you decide upon a model, you need to decide which class of weapon you're looking for. Do you want a PCC or a RCC? This is the real question. If you're looking for a PCC, the Saiga need not apply. If you're looking for a RCC, the Hi-point is not an option.

Decide THAT, and the choice is obvious. However, only you can decide if it is worth it to have greater power and flexibility that you will be able to shoot less often, or if it is better to have a more limted rifle that you can easily take shooting.

Mike

Lashlarue
August 20, 2007, 01:24 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/C5Sam/Laser995.jpg I have the tricked out hi-point, surprizingly accurate with the laser sighted in for 50 yds, sub 2" groups from a rest. 200 rds without a hiccup, although I did fine tune the mag release to handle both the oem and pro-mag magazines.

MD_Willington
August 20, 2007, 01:28 PM
Would be nice if they made the Highpoint run off of Glock magazines... {/wistful thinking...

Here's a tricked out HP carbine from the Saiga forum:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/MDWillington1976/Firearms/hipointcarrailgriprd2-1.jpg

indie
August 20, 2007, 01:36 PM
Mike what is PCC and RCC? Still new to the lingo.

edit, answered my own question

Pistol Caliber or Rifle Caliber

the answer is i want BOTH lol. But At the moment, home defense is the primary concern making the rifle caliber less practical for me.

indie
August 20, 2007, 01:41 PM
lash, thats how i want my hi point configured if i end up gettting one.

its just so hard with the saiga calling me to commit lol

Oleg Volk
August 20, 2007, 01:48 PM
Hi-Point is accurate but unergonomic, hard to clean. I would advise Saiga.

megjur
August 20, 2007, 02:14 PM
You can get a Saiga in .223, cuts down on the overpenetration problems.

strat81
August 20, 2007, 02:56 PM
strat. My local walmarts dont stock 7.62. Which would be the caliber i want if i get a saiga. I cant just run to the store and grab a box anytime. Especially not at a good price. So thats why im saying availability, as in convenience of being able to pick it up whenever i run across it. I wont just happen to be in a store and find a good price on 7.62. I will be able to do that with 9mm.

Bummer. My Wal-mart carries 7.62x39, .223, .308, and 12ga (i.e., ALL of the Saiga calibers). x39 is not an odd caliber and most gun shops should carry it as well as gun shows. It's also readily available over the net. Your profile says you're in South Carolina, so there aren't any ammo shipping restrictions to SC that I'm aware of.

However, my Walmart doesn't carry premium SD pistol ammo. Have to go to a gun shop, gun show, or the internet for that.

If you want your wife to use it, .223 might be a better choice since it recoils even less than x39.

Of course, I buy my 7.62x39 by the case (occasionally 1/2 case) from AIM.

Also, on # 2, 7.62 is much more likely to zip through a human body and then through drywall.
If 7.62 was not a notorious penetrating round and was as commonly available, i would not even be considering the high point right now.

Most FMJ rounds can overpenetrate, rifle or pistol. If you're loading up with x39, look at the soft point and hollowpoint options from Wolf as well as the premium stuff from Winchester.

Why are you set on 7.62x39? .223 is a very good round for SD/HD and there are plenty of ammo options out there for it.

If you want a low cost carbine, don't forget Kel-Tec. They make them in pistol and rifle calibers and the rifle caliber carbines use AR-15 mags which are cheap and plentiful. I'd take one of their guns over a Hi-point. I'm sure the Hi-point is a fun plinker, but I would not trust my family's lives to one.

Lashlarue
August 20, 2007, 03:26 PM
Saiga 16" carbine in 223 is on my wish list. I have a K_T P-11 and almost bought an SU-2000, but that gun has the worst trigger I've ever felt and does not lend itself to scopes. The fold up feature is ok , if you're going to rob a bank, but my last one made me enough to retire on.:)

indie
August 20, 2007, 03:28 PM
cost of ammo is a definite major concern as is the cost of the weapon, cheaper ammo = more practice for me and less of an argument about gun related money expenditures with the wife since we are still "getting on our feet".. So if i get an inexpensive gun, and inexpensive ammo that is capable of serving the home defense purpose that is great, i can hold off on the guns i just "want", at least until i can make a little bit more money.

Correia
August 20, 2007, 03:34 PM
If you're worried about penetration get the .223 over the 7.62x39.

Basically the Saiga beats the Hi-Point in every way possible.

The only advantage I can think of is ammo cost and shooting on indoor ranges. But actually engaging another person in a gun battle? Saiga, every single time.

More range. More power. And it will last longer than you will.

Practice with cheap ammo. Keep something like Hornady TAP in the gun at home.

strat81
August 20, 2007, 03:37 PM
If ammo cost is a major concern, don't buy a rifle caliber anything. Even Wolf rifle ammo is ~$200/case now vs ~$150/case for 9mm. Combine that with the rifle issues your range has, and it seems like a pistol or PCC is your only choice.

PCCs don't store as nicely as a pistol and that may be an issue if you have young ones running around (now or in the somewhat-near future). If I was in your shoes, I'd get over to www.summitgunbroker.com and pick up a LE-trade S&W 5906. All steel so recoil is minimal, mags are cheap and plentiful, and the gun itself has a great track record for reliability, dependability, and accuracy. Plus it'll retain its value much better than a Hi-point. Stoke it with some Hornaday TAP, Remington Golden Sabers, or similar ammo when it's in the nightstand and practice with WWB.

indie
August 20, 2007, 03:38 PM
lol you guys are making this harder..LMAO..i really appreciate all of the help...im learning!

indie
August 20, 2007, 03:44 PM
i currently have a 357 mag k frame revolver and i love it.. My wife shot it for the first time about 3 weeks ago and had a good time, after not wanting a gun in the house at all.. She will be going back to the range to shoot my best friends Ruger 9mm and Glock 22 next month.

We are planning to start trying to have a baby at the beginning of next year. So there are kids in the near future.

Slimjim
August 20, 2007, 05:14 PM
Kel-tec Sub2000 with the glock magwell in 9mm. 31 rd mags FTW.

Correia
August 20, 2007, 05:26 PM
Okay, I sell guns for a living, and I'm going to break this down for you like I would break it down for a customer.

First off, what is your mission? You need to define what you are looking for.

If it is primarily for fun, that is one thing. If it is primarily for home defense, that is another.

I'm going to assume that this is for serious business. Because if it if for fun, pick the one that you think looks the coolest.

9mm vs. 5.56 vs. 7.62x39

I got to sit through an 8 hour wound ballistics class two weeks ago. We looked at a couple hundred autopsy photos. Pistol cartridge loses. Period. Not even close to comparable.

Your home defense gun is for one purpose. Stop a threat. It isn't for fun. It isn't to look cool. It may do those things, but it is primarly to put down a threat as quickly as possible.

A pistol cartridge is a pistol cartridge, whether you fire it out of a long gun or not. It is still relatively feeble. It may very well do the job, but it will never do the job as well as a rifle bullet.

Now for penetration, 9mm penetrates like a son of a gun, still. Anything that can punch a hole in a person is going to punch a wall.

There are some excellent choices in rifle bullets that will not penetrate as deeply because of velocity and bullet construction.

That's why I say if you're going to use it in the house, get the 5.56 Saiga. It has more ammo to choose from than 7.62x39 and you can choose a load that will have less chance of overpenetration.

Either of the rifle cartridges will enable you to reach out about 5 times further than you could with the pistol caliber gun if your situation changes.

Even if ammo costs 50% more, are you buying this to plink, or are you buying it to defend your family?

MD_Willington
August 20, 2007, 05:36 PM
and I'll throw this in to temp you even further on the Saiga...


{cue spooky mesmerizing music}

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/MDWillington1976/Firearms/Saiga223/crazyturban5we.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/MDWillington1976/Firearms/Saiga223/saigasmall.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/MDWillington1976/Firearms/Saiga223/crazyturban5we.gif


Look at the swirly graphics... you know you want the Saiga.... all the cool kids own a Saiga... the Saiga goes well with Nike shoes... oooooo


:neener:

indie
August 20, 2007, 05:48 PM
Correia, thanks for the breakdown. Home defense is primary, plinking/fun is secondary. But i do take in consideration my ability to practice with the weapon. And in that case, the high point wins. I can go right down the street to shoot, and i can afford to buy more ammo, and get ammo at my convenience. Im pretty sure 9mm would get the job done for my needs.

but on the other hand thanks to saiga instigators like MD, LMAO....saiga is the damned devil! i want a saiga.

lol...i am still undecided. I just called my range to verify what i could and could not shoot. Saiga = No, 9mm carbine = yes.

i might just keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on both and get whatever jumps out at me first as a "buy it now!" price.

Lashlarue
August 20, 2007, 05:49 PM
If Saiga's are so cool, why did you put up a photo of a modified[ costs two hundred dollars more] one.Sorry for home defense I want the round with the least penetration[ I have no desire to kill any of my neighbors] My 9mm pistol loaded with Glasers fills the bill. BTW the Glasers and Magsafes according to FBI statistics have a higher kill percentage than any other cartridge including hydra-shock and black talons.

Correia
August 20, 2007, 05:55 PM
Lash, you got a link to where the FBI said that?

I'm pretty sure I know where your stat is coming from, and it ain't the FBI...

Nameless_Hobo
August 20, 2007, 06:11 PM
Oh really? I've heard the findings were the other way.

If you want lower penetration, why not use .22 short?

MD_Willington
August 20, 2007, 08:01 PM
It did not cost $200 more...

I purchased the PG, PG screw & nut, G2 FCG, & NATO stock for a grand total + tax of $118...

The rifle was $305, that includes transfer and shipping to my FFL

4 nylon hole plugs cost 0.17 x 4
1 metric screw + lock washer and nut ~ 0.75

You can get the Saiga online anywhere from ~$240 on up


Spent July 4th with my son changing out some parts on the rifle and touching up the receiver and thats it.

clange
August 20, 2007, 08:09 PM
Kel-tec Sub2000 without a doubt. It is by far my favorite firearm right now (in a 'for fun' sense). 9mm is cheap, 33 round mags are awesome, and it fits in a 15" laptop case. Edit: and I've had 4 AKs and a saiga-12 at one point, when I was a AK nut, a 9mm carbine is plain fun.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/clange/2.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/clange/3.jpg

Bartholomew Roberts
August 20, 2007, 08:47 PM
Sorry for home defense I want the round with the least penetration[ I have no desire to kill any of my neighbors] My 9mm pistol loaded with Glasers fills the bill.

Well, you are right about that. It will be hard to get less penetration without going to a .177 BB or a 6mm plastic BB. The Glasers are notorious for underpenetrating.

BTW the Glasers and Magsafes according to FBI statistics have a higher kill percentage than any other cartridge including hydra-shock and black talons.

Like Correia, I'd like to see a link for that statistic because I am quite sure that the FBI has never found anything of the sort. TFL has some excellent discussions on Glasers in the archives - you can even find my posts defending Glasers there - right up to the point where I tried to find some evidence to support that belief and all I could find was stories of Glaser failures. This includes a failure of a .357 Glaser to the head that failed to stop the threat. That thread is at TFL as well.

For more recent examples here at THR, you can see some of the x-rays Odd Job has posted of Glaser type rounds in action or read the story of the Oklahoma pawn shop owner who was forced to fire through a two-way mirror during a robbery of his store (first two were Glaser and had no effect).

MIL-DOT
August 20, 2007, 09:18 PM
SAIGA . ( sometimes i have a gift for brevity...........sometimes).

corncob
August 20, 2007, 09:48 PM
You should join Mid-Carolina Rifle Club. They are somewhat hard to track down on the internet, but the club is close enough to go shoot your rifles at 200 yards or your pistols at 1 (drawing from holsters is, of course, allowed). I always thought it is impossible to REALLY practice with a handgun at a range where drawing from a holster is not allowed.

However, it sounds to me like you really want the pistol caliber carbine. Buy it. Buy 4 mags, a case of ammo, a bore snake, and a bottle of CLP, and shoot it. With a Sure Fire (esp. in a mount) it will be fine for home defense. Any gun you've put a thousand rounds through is so much better than no gun that I don't think it really matters which one you pick. But do put the thousand rounds through it.

geojap
August 20, 2007, 10:33 PM
I've never fired or handled a Hi-Point before. But given that I've handled, shot or owned about 50 other kinds of long guns, I can say that in my opinion, there is not a finer "first rifle" than a Saiga. There isn't any down-side really, when considering it as a first rifle. One of the up-sides is that you can convert it to accept hi-cap mags with a pistol grip when you get around to the conversion process on your own time. At the moment, this rifle almost has too many upsides to count. If you want me to, I'll try and list them all for you.

My girlfriend of one year has shown an interest in target practice and marksmanship after a few trips to the range with me. She has expressed interest in owning a rifle, so I'm going to probably buy her a Saiga, as her primary firearm when we go to the range.

She also likes my Belgian Browning Hi-Power a lot (she called it a "very nice gun"), but I can't get her another one of those just yet. ;-)

As for the Cons that you mentioned with the Saiga, don't use it for home defense if you are concerned about rifle rounds going through walls in your situation. If you need an inexpensive home defense handgun, get yourself a Taurus 357 mag revolver for $175 or so. You can step up to Ruger revolvers for about $300-350. They work well for home defense in most situations.

Prince Yamato
August 20, 2007, 10:39 PM
In a national taste-test, 4 out of 5 Americans preferred Saigas to Hi-Points... no, that is not a true statistic, but come on, get the AK.

rangerruck
August 20, 2007, 10:56 PM
I tried a hipoint in 9mm once, ONCE!~!! That was all it took for me, to figure out, they are not reliable, or made well, if you must get a keltec in glock config, over the hipoint.

jungleroy
August 21, 2007, 02:37 AM
I would go for the Saiga, my bathroom gun is a Saiga 223 with a Streamlight mounted under the barrel.

Clipper
August 21, 2007, 08:43 AM
I live in a nice suburban neighborhood. I own a Hi-Point (w/ATI stock) carbine, a WASR II, several handguns and a shotgun (Win M-12, 30"), among others. If given a choice, I'm reaching for the Hi-Point for HD...Look, If I were being attacked by some crazed outlaw biker gang, I guess I'd wish I had the AK, but in the real world, it's gonna be one or two guys looking to score dope money, and 10 rounds of 9mm HP will settle their hash in short order. Ever notice how the recommendations always seem to go with the biggest, most expensive boomer. If one of your choices would have been a DPMS in 25WSSM, everyone would be dissing the Saiga. I also can't help but wonder, if the discussion were HD pistols, how many would recommend a GLOCK 9mm for you instead of, say, a .500 because of penetration worries. I like my neighbors, and want to reduce the possibility of a miss or through & through injuring or killing one of them to the lowest reasonable order of probability. When the Emergency Broadcast System starts sending alerts about roving bands of zombies or something, I'll whip out the AK, but otherwise, I'll leave my Rambo fantasies in the safe and keep my HP with me in the here and now...

Correia
August 21, 2007, 10:01 AM
Ever notice how the recommendations always seem to go with the biggest, most expensive boomer. Yeah, because that under $300 Saiga is just a total snob gun. :p

Settle their hash? Dude, no offense, but if you're gonna get into a gunfight, and you're picking the gun that you're going to take into a gunfight, why in the world would you want the weaker one, with the lesser track record, lesser range, and lesser reliability?

We're talking about shooting people here for self defense. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Putting a massive wound channel in the bad guy that will damage more tissues and cause greater blood loss and faster incapacitation is what it is all about.

There's a reason that pretty much every professional group, that actually makes their living killing people, has gravitated toward a rifle caliber carbine and away from pistol caliber subguns.

Honestly, I've got access to half a dozen full auto submachine guns ranging from MP5s to PPsHs. Any one of those compared to the Hi-Point would "smoke its hash". And if I was going to get into a gunfight, I absolutely knew there was going to be a gunfight, I'm taking a rifle, and leaving the buzzgun home.

Lashlarue
August 21, 2007, 10:27 AM
We are also talking home defense, I have 50 neighbors within 1/4 mile, not a battlefield situation.Even a jhp 9mm will penetrate several sheet rock walls. If I lived in the boonies with no neighbors, I'd have 20mm gatling gun, if you get my drift.

indie
August 21, 2007, 11:16 AM
i understand that a saiga is going to do more damage to tissue than a pistol caliber carbine. I also understand that it is considered to be the "better quality rifle.

But guys, Is it practical for a "go to" primary home defense gun in a residential neighborhood? Thats one issue of Major importance in my decision. I want a practical home defense gun, that my wife can handle. That can point and fire quickly. And that both of us can practice with and get accustomed to as being new to guns.

I can go to a range a mile away at my convenience and shoot 9mm but cant shoot .223 or 7.62. 9mm is more affordable.

i really have been wanting to get a saiga, and i like the capabilities of the 7.62x39. I really like the skeleton stock, and i would not modify from there, just get a few extra mags, and maybe a 30 round surefire just to have for a shtf emergency type situation. But i still havent found a reason to justify it as being more or even AS suitable for my current needs as a 9mm carbine.

To Clange. I looked into the kel tec, seems like a nice little carbine, but i'm a southpaw, and i have seen alot of complaints from left handed shooters having problems with both powder in their face and with releasing/dropping magazines. Southpaws seem to enjoy the hi point.

MD_Willington
August 21, 2007, 12:07 PM
Okay, here's a suggestion then, Saiga .410 with slugs or buck...

The Saiga .410 is in most cases the same price or close in price to the Saiga .223 or Saiga 7.62x39

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga-410.shtml

fletcher
August 21, 2007, 12:11 PM
I would go with the Saiga. It's a good gun, reliable, and can be modified fairly easily if that floats your boat.

Clipper
August 21, 2007, 12:17 PM
Correia,
I don't know where you're getting your reliability news, but I get mine here, and the threads I read all seem to confirm the reliability of the Hi-Point carbine. I know for sure mine has been utterly reliable since round 1. I cannot say that about my AK.

'Professional' groups that kill people for a living don't concern themselves with the women & kids on the next street, do they? Collateral damage is an everyday thing. If you're advocating some kind of scorched earth policy to deal with your bad guy problem, all I can say is I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhood!

And we're talking home defense here, not 'knowing I'm going to a gunfight'. This is presumably inside his home, not fighting his way across town or sniping gomers from the rooftops.

Correia
August 21, 2007, 12:54 PM
'Professional' groups that kill people for a living don't concern themselves with the women & kids on the next street, do they? That's usually the primary rule. Have you ever actually worked with any people like that? Every trained with any SWAT teams? You might be surprised.

If you're advocating some kind of scorched earth policy to deal with your bad guy problem, all I can say is I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhood! That's what's called a Strawman Argument. It is when you make up something asinine, and then assign it to the guy you're debating.

If I was following a scorched earth policy, I would just skip right to belt fed 7.62x54R out of a PKM and quit screwing around.

My personal HD gun is 5.56, has a 10.5 inch barrel, and a TAC16 suppresor. I'm pushing a 55 grain bullet at 2,700 FPS. And I have shot walls, drywall, bricks, and cinderblocks with it. I've done the same thing with 9mm, .45, 00 and 000 buck, and various slugs. I know exactly how my gun works. I don't need to take the word of random strangers on the internet.

I would suggest that you guys do the same. Shoot some stuff for yourself. Take what you read online with a grain of salt.

SaMx
August 21, 2007, 12:57 PM
right now I think the only thing the hi-point has going for it is it's easier to practice with.

LaEscopeta
August 21, 2007, 01:34 PM
currently have a 357 mag k frame revolver and i love itOK I’m going to throw more confusion into the mix. What you want is…A .357 LEVER CARBINE!

Yes, terminal ballistics, rate of fire, ammo capacity, range, and maybe accuracy are all inferior to a Saiga rifle. And .357 will generally over penetrate more than .223. But .357 from a carbine has more range and hits harder than a 9 mm carbine. And you already have .357 ammo. To save a few bucks you can plink with both your revolver and your new carbine with .38 special ammo.

For most real home defense situations a .357 lever rifle will be good enough. For any sort of SHTF outside-the-house fantasy scenarios the Saiga advantages blow any pistol carbine away. But as Correia says in post 27 above, “what is your mission? You need to define what you are looking for.”

The over penetration issue can be broken into 2 parts:
- A round hitting the target (the bad guy) and continuing through to hit something else you don’t want hit (I understand this is the original FBI definition of the term “over penetration.”)
- A round missing the target, going through wall(s) and hitting something you don’t want hit.

You can limit the first possible with expanding (hollow points, etc), fragmenting, or tumbling (yawing) bullets. All three quickly decrease the kinetic energy of the bullet in the target, limiting the chances of an exit, and limiting possible damage to a second target if the bullet does exit. All three also increase (or at least don’t decrease) the round’s stopping powder. Reduced energy rounds (.38 special, 22LR, etc) also limit over penetration, but they also reduce stopping powder, and these decreases are pretty much proportional to each other.

You can limit the second type of over penetration danger by first and formost doing everything you can to increase your odds of hitting the target. A search for “home defense” on this site will yields lots of ways to do this (plan what to do, set up a safe room with everyone in the house behind you, and a “fatal funnel” through which any intruder will have to pass to get to you, etc.) The other thing you need to do to increase hit probability is practice. And since you said you can practice easier, cheaper and more often at the near by pistol range, I think that settles your choice. Get a .357 lever.

(.223 bullets, due to their tendency to tumble and quickly lose energy after hitting anything, even a sheet rock wall, probably have the greatest ratio of stopping power to minimum miss danger. A tumbling .223 round will still go hundreds of yards down range, even with a dozen or so walls in between, but it will generally do less damage to a person after going through the first wall, compared to other rounds. This is the finding of the oft quoted FBI study, and one reason many LE organizations have switched to .223 rifles.)

(I’m not repeating the usual arguments that a shotgun is the best home defense weapon because I assume the original poster has heard them and has already decided they want a rifle/carbine.)

clange
August 21, 2007, 02:54 PM
To Clange. I looked into the kel tec, seems like a nice little carbine, but i'm a southpaw, and i have seen alot of complaints from left handed shooters having problems with both powder in their face and with releasing/dropping magazines. Southpaws seem to enjoy the hi point.
Ah, thats a good point. I just tried it, and releasing mags are simple with the inner part of your index finger. The release sticks out really far, and is easy to press. In fact, it might be too easy (which might be the problem you're referring to). If you grip tightly it might release the mag when you don't want it to. And yeah, the brass would be ejecting like 2 inches from the front of your nose, so I can imagine that would be annoying.

Umm, tough call then. For HD a .223 saiga would be better, but you can't shoot it at the range. The hi-point sounds ok for now. It doesn't have to pull double duty forever. You could get the hi-point and a 870 for HD later for less than $300 (http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=78739956), and the wife would probably like shooting the 9mm carbine more than jumping right to an AK (even though the recoil isn't bad at all, the 9mm would be a lot less).

indie
August 22, 2007, 10:25 AM
hi point is in the lead for me because its definitely going to be the most practical/economical choice for me, and would be a gun i would actually get to shoot every couple of weeks.

I like their warranty and service. And i like the simple upgrades i can make to the gun to make it more ergonomic and home defense ready. I really like to have a hi point configured like the one Lash Larue posted on page 1 of this thread.

im still having trouble committing to that choice. LOL. If i get a hi point, i have a feeling that the saiga will still keep calling me.

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