[Jeff OTMG]

I pretty much fly every weekend and so far the only airport that has had the TSA inspectors BEHIND the ticketing area has been in Indy. I ALWAYS fly with firearms, at least two handguns if not more. When the TSA inspector is outside the ticket area it is no problem for me to stand there while they do the search, whether manual or with the CAT Scan machine, wait for the okay and head off to security. I flew out of Indy on Thursday. As usual the bag disappears, the counter clerk calls TSA to let them know that guns are on the way and I wait for the call that everything is okay. I get a call that they want to do a manual inspection and want me to send the keys and combination down to TSA. No way, no how. That is a violation of federal regs. From this day forward I will carry the pertinent regs with me when travelling and I suggest that you do the same.

From the FAA:
http://www2.faa.gov/avr/AFS/FARS/far-108.txt
or
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=14&PART=108&SECTION=11&YEAR=2001&TYPE=TEXT
This is the Code or Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 14, Chapter I,
Sec. 108.11 Carriage of weapons.
(d) No certificate holder may knowingly permit any person to transport, nor
may any person transport or tender for transport, any unloaded firearm in
checked baggage aboard an airplane unless--
(1) The passenger declares to the certificate holder, either orally or in
writing before checking the baggage, that any firearm carried in the baggage
is unloaded;
(2) The firearm is carried in a container the certificate holder considers
appropriate for air transportation;
(3) When the firearm is other than a shotgun, rifle, or other firearm
normally fired from the shoulder position, the baggage in which it is carried
is locked, and only the passenger checking the baggage retains the key or
combination; and
(4) The baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area, other than
the flightcrew compartment, that is inaccessible to passengers.

Note: The 'certificate holder' is the airline.
Note: 108.11, (d), (3) specifies only for handguns does this apply, but as we will see according to the actual TSA regs it applies to all firearms.

And for the regulations that apply to the TSA folks (which they did not know and you would think that they would) It appears that 14 CFR 108 has been recoded in 49 CFR as follows:

This is the reg that applies to the individual travelling:
CFR Title 49, Subtitle B, Chapter 12, Part 1540, Section 1540.111
or more commonly referred to as 49CFR1540.111

http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=49&PART=1540&SECTION=111&TYPE=TEXT

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
PART 1540--CIVIL AVIATION SECURITY: GENERAL RULES--Table of Contents
Subpart B--Responsibilities of Passengers and Other Individuals and Persons

Sec. 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.

(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for
transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).
(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless--
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally
or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a
firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is unloaded;
(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and
(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the
passenger retains the key or combination.


This is the reg that applies to the screening of the baggage for the TSA to follow:
49 CFR 1544.203
http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=49&PART=1544&SECTION=203&TYPE=TEXT

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
PART 1544--AIRCRAFT OPERATOR SECURITY: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS--Table of Contents
Subpart C--Operations

Sec. 1544.203 Acceptance and screening of checked baggage.

(f) Firearms in checked baggage. No aircraft operator may knowingly
permit any person to transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).
(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless--
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally
or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in
the baggage is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container;
(iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the
individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and
(iv) The checked baggage containing the firearm is carried in an
area that is inaccessible to passengers, and is not carried in the
flightcrew compartment,.

Note: Here the rules are for any firearm, not just handguns as found in the FAA regs under 14 CFR 108.11.

Here is the FAQ on the TSA website:
http://www.tsa.dot.gov/public/faq.jsp or http://129.33.119.130/public/faq.jsp

Art edit: I've been advised that if the above two links don't provide the info, go to http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?content=09000519800ac232

Can I still transport a firearm in checked baggage? Subject to state and local restrictions on transporting firearms you may still transport a firearm in your checked baggage. However you should first check with your airline or travel agent to see if firearms are permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. Ask about limitations or fees if any that apply. Firearms carried as checked baggage MUST be unloaded packed in a locked hard-sided gun case and declared to the airline at check-in. Only you the passenger may have the key or combination. Ammunition may be packed in the same locked container as the firearm so long as it is not loaded in the firearm. Small-arms ammunition must also be declared to the air carrier and placed in an appropriate container ? securely packed in fiber wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amount of ammunition. In addition small-arms ammunition must also be declared to the air carrier and placed in an appropriate container: "securely packed in fiber wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition." Ammunition may be packed in the same locked container as the firearm so long as it is not loaded in the firearm.

Anyway, here is the info that you will need when transporting firearms on a flight and you don't want TSA to break into your suitcase and you don't want to become a criminal by surrendering your key and/or combination. This will save me future hassles and hopefully it will be of help to you as well. No, I am not a lawyer, but I do know how to read.

[Seminole]

So what did you do? And what was their reaction? Now that you've aroused our curiosity, give us the rest of the story!

[DMK]

It's very sad that the laws are so complex today, even the lawmen can't keep track of them.

[hops]

See my thread on same basic experience. I never did hear back from TSA on my email to them about this. My Airline did reply and told me that they can't do anything and that I should contact TSA directly with my concerns.

Gov.org can and will violate their rules at their leisure.

Oh, I had copies of the TSA and FFA regs on the 2nd trip. Made no difference.
You want to fly, you must comply! Baa-Baa-Baa.

[Waitone]

What is sad is evidently in this case the TSA didn't know what the regs were.

[Standing Wolf]

Some looter just wanted to steal your firearms. You don't mind, do you?

[blades67]

They don't care what the rules are, they just don't want to get up off their lazy butts.:rolleyes:

[tiberius]

So Jeff, what happened?????????

[Jeff OTMG]

Sorry about that. I told them that there was no way I was giving up my key and if they broke into the suitcase where it could not be relocked that they were in violation of federal law for causing a firearm to be transported in an unlocked container. A TSA rep came upstairs and I hand carried my key and combination downstairs, escorted by the TSA person. TSA brought my suitcase to an opening between the secured area and unsecured area of the baggage inspection area. I opened the suitcase and unlocked the gun case for them. They then conducted a manual search in my presence. When they were done, I locked everything back up and my suitcase went on its' way. Unfortunately I did not have this info printed out, but I did tell them that if they had internet access that I would be happy to show them the regs. TSA was responsive because I told them what the law was and quoted the section. I was also insistent that they were not going to make me a felon and that they should be careful that they do not commit illegal acts. It is times like this that I remind myself why I get to the airport at 14:00 for a 15:40 flight.

[Seminole]

It sounds like you did exactly the right thing and did not let yourself be intimidated. Good for you!

[Slabside]

Nashville, TN airport has TSA personnel behind ticketing counter. No problems encountered. Simply asked to step behind the counter to take care of business.

[bogie]

Suggestion: Print out the stuff, and put a copy in the case. Also tape a sheet with the appropriate cites on the outside of the case, along with the words "Only the owner/passenger has the key to this case."

[DigMe]

Suggestion: Print out the stuff, and put a copy in the case. Also tape a sheet with the appropriate cites on the outside of the case, along with the words "Only the owner/passenger has the key to this case."

When you apply all that to the outside of the bag you should also include a sign that says "There are guns in this bag. All baggage handlers and lackeys are welcome to take them."

brad cook

[jimpeel]

Isn't there something in the regs that the owner of the firearm is the only person who is to handle the firearm while in the airport as well?

I'm going to be flying Frontier AL next month. I will be packing a copy of the regs with me.

[Mac Attack]

You think that's bad. The first time flew with a firearm on my return flight flying out of John Wayne Airport in Santa Ana, CA. I checked my luggage and informed the clerk that I was traveling with a firearm. The clerk acted like she didn't know what to do, so after giving me my ticket she sent me over to the security booth with my suitcase.

I talked to the TSA and he said that I would have to check my suitcase with the clerk. I told him that she had just sent me to him to check my luggage. So back I go and this time the clerk along with the TSA agree to check my luggage. So they pull me over to a vacant booth, recheck my papers and the TSA asks to see the HG to make sure it is unloaded. Man talk about feeling like an outcast. I was flying out on a Saturday and everyone and their mother was watching my free show.

As discreetly as possible I unlock my gun case, show him the gun is not loaded, resecured it and as I am preparing to lock my suitcase down the TSA says that I cannot lock it. What the heck? I had just flown out of Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta and they did not ask me to leave my suitcase unlocked. I informed the TSA of this and he said rules are rules. I was very leary of leaving it unlocked especially since I also had several expensive custom knives inside. But my flight was taking off in 45 minutes and I didn't want to miss it. So I complied and was stressed out the whole time.

Long story short it wasn't until I had a chance to speak with others about my situation that I realized the TSA made a serious error in judgment. The next time I flew out of John Wayne I did not have this problem. I guess I should just chalk it up to the TSA not knowing the rules.

[DMK]

As discreetly as possible I unlock my gun case, show him the gun is not loaded, resecured it and as I am preparing to lock my suitcase down the TSA says that I cannot lock it. What the heck? I had just flown out of Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta and they did not ask me to leave my suitcase unlocked. I informed the TSA of this and he said rules are rules. I was very leary of leaving it unlocked especially since I also had several expensive custom knives inside. But my flight was taking off in 45 minutes and I didn't want to miss it. So I complied and was stressed out the whole time What idiots. That is completely contradictory to the whole intent of the regulations. I cannot even imagine what their rational was for not locking the case. That's like a UPS clerk telling you to write "handgun inside" on the outside of the package when shipping it.

:rolleyes:

[Wakal]

I'm at the airport fairly regularly, dressed to blend in here in West Texas (BDU and a M9 in a flap holster), since my base requires weapons custodians to "escort" deploying weapons (they don't care much about the NCO's and Airmen, but they worry about the poor widdle weapons, but that is another story).

So there I am, two weeks ago, standing in front of the ticket counter with the poor deploying senior NCO and her locked Pelican case complete with M16A2. The counter boy announces to her that she will have to unlock the gun case and send it to the back for "inspection." Normally, I fill in for the passenger and escort the case to the back and unlock it, then relock it after it has been 'checked' (for cooties, I suspect, but I digress). However, Counter Boy announced that NEITHER of us were allowed to accompany the gun, and that the case MUST be unlocked.

Well, I didn't get an arm full of stripes by being unprepared to do deal with ignorance, apathy, and general ill will (I've been stationed on Navy bases, after all). I had issued my traveler my "Flying With Guns FAQ", which...oddly enough...has printouts of all the applicable regulations. The same ones that My Hero Jeff OTMG referenced in this very thread.

Counter Boy didn't believe the printouts, and had to get his supervisor. Wow. Double the ignorance, double the fun. After Counter Boy told me to "quit arguing", and I informed him that I was stating facts, not arguing...since arguing with an idiot just annoys you and confuses the idiot (that one made a cute 'whoosh' noise as it went over Counter Boy's pointy head, although his boss wasn't amused)...things got more interesting.

Counter Boy finally ran off and found the head TSA agent assigned to the spacious San Angelo Hair Care, Tire Sales, Chinese Restaurant, and Airport. Said agent read the regulations, announced that "...my regulations are classified" (which amused me, since I had his regs printed out, and carry a higher security clearance than most folks know even exist), and then said that "...no case would be locked in MY airport."

I, in my polite and calm fashion, honed from years of dealing with Airman...and Marines...offered to show him the Hooked on Phonics section the local library...and further offered to help him sound out the larger words as he worked through the lessons.

"Whoosh"

And this level of ignorance is when dealing with a uniformed and armed member of the citizenry. I shudder to think how they abuse citizens on a regular basis.

FWIW, I was finally allowed to carry the case back to the inspection section, unlock it for inspection, and relock it afterwards. Which I had done eight times in the last six weeks...at that same Airport. Note to travelers: don't even bother locking the cheap gun cases with the integral locks. At the San Angelo Tire Ca...well, you know what it is...Airport, one of the TSA agents has his own personal set of keys that will open most standard cases. He thinks it is funny that folks rely on standard locks. If a guy at an airport this small has keys like that, I suspect that every airport on the face of the planet is the same way or worse...




Alex

[Mr. Mysterious]

Alex, thanks for not backing down and keeping the drones in line.

OT, but TSA related... A couple weeks ago I was flying back from Ft. Lewis through SEATAC. I was given the glass room inspection...no big deal, the TSA guy said it was random. Well, here comes the kick in the nuts...I had some time before my flight and I was watching what was going on. I had spent 4 hours in the USO before hand and saw that every single person that was in the USO was getting the glass room. Don't know why, but it didn't feel right...

[PUMC_TomG]

Guess What?!

This happened to me as well in the Indy airport... and ONLY at the Indy airport. Since 9/11 I've flown in and out of Indy, Atlanta, Orlando, and Melbourne Int'l Airports and only INDY has done this to me.
Same request - same situation.

I told the attendant that I was not permitted to unlock the case and that I felt uncomfortable by her request to do so.

They told me I was not getting on my plane unless I unlocked the case with the shotgun and pistol inside, and gave it to them with the two locks unlocked. I told them I did not feel comfortable with this and didn't believe that it was the law for them to be able to do this. They told me I was wrong and the ticketing agent told me she didn't know because they've changed their minds several times at Indy on what to do with firearms in cases.

Needless to say - I folded and managed to get both of my firearms in Melbourne - but I'm quite unhappy about it. I was nervous the whole way home to Florida.

I wish I had the time option like the previous poster - because I would have held out if it wasn't so important for me to get home.

Damn TSA!:cuss:

[jimpeel]

I placed a copy of the TSA rules in my firearm case tonight in preparation for my flight to CA. I also placed a copy of the airline's requirements with it.

[Mr. Mysterious]

I'd carry the rules either in a brief case or on my person. Don't put them in the case...if they are in there then you have to open up the case at the check in desk and might panic Joe Civillian in order to show the first drone the rules that they should already know.

[Sean Cloherty]

Sometimes even carrying a copy of the TSA regs, the TSA website content, and all pertinent laws highighted still will do you no good with the TSA.

I had a long and INTENSE "discussion" with the screeners in the Fort Lauaderdale airport. They were shocked at my preparedness, but they said that the rules I had were wrong anyways and that they do it all the time with air marshalls and such.

Meanwhile my wife was trying to act casual like she wasn't afraid of my being arrested and whisked away leaving her and my two toddlers alone with a mountain of luggage.

I told them that I was only trying to make sure that I follow the law and eventually they were relented to my unlocking the box myself for a manual inspection.

Not a fun expeience at all.

[XLMiguel]

Thanks, most useful. In addition to the printed regs, a set of phone numbers of TSA central, FAA, airline in question, and appropriate congresscritter offices can be useful, too. Taking everyone's name, title, badge numbers, etc, and notes of process/conversation can also be useful.

[geegee]

That's like a UPS clerk telling you to write "handgun inside" on the outside of the package when shipping it.
Anyone think that idea isn't being (or hasn't been) seriously considered by the TSA "brain trust"? I really hate to generalize about people and groups, but I fly too often not to have begun generalizing about these folks. :banghead:

[Cellar Dweller]

Quit playing nice, or doing the :banghead: .

Don't argue, don't freak out, politely DEMAND they get a LEO immediately. Show LEO the printout, and ask the offenders to be placed under arrest, after all, they are trying to coerce you into committing a felony. If he declines, demand HIS supervisor.

1. saves time
2. saves stress
3. edumacates an idjit

After a few idjits are either read the riot act for being ignorant/stupid or hauled off in chains the rest of 'em will mysteriously find themselves complying with the law as written and intended.

[DMK]

Wakal, your story illustrates as clear as day that we have in fact become a police state. More and more, we see agents of the government, officers of the law and officers of the courts who feel that they are more powerful than the law, and that without review, they may make up their own regulations as they see fit and that we should be forced to follow them without question.

How dare you question the man's authority? :fire:

[sturmruger]

Last time I flew anywhere I placed a zip tie through the barrel of my gun. It made is allot easier for the ticket people to see that the gun was not loaded. It doesn't sound like the ticket people have to look a the gun any more just the security people.

[Obiwan]

You would think they would want the cases locked:confused:

Otherwise those evil weapons could escape and storm the cockpit:D

[Art Eatman]

Per request, I'm gonna let this float. I'll maybe repost it with just Jeff's comments and the URLs, when I get a chance. I'll let that new thread float and send this on "back down the ladder".

:), Art

[jimpeel]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92597

[gristle head]

Unforunately, it's not always TSA that doesn't know what they are doing and having a printed copy of their regulations may not help.

On a recent hunting excursion to South Africa, I had to check bags from Amarillo to Laguardia, pick them up, go cross town to JFK and check in again.

I had checked the regs, both TSA's and the airlines and head the regs printed out. I had my rifle in one level of very sturdy and secure case and my ammo in another level in factory boxes. No problem checking in here in Amarillo. No problem checking in with the airline. But then, they say the Port Authority Police have to examine. OK, here comes the largest person I have ever seen in a LEO uniform. Politley examines my rifle, says ok then ask where my ammo is packed. I advise one the other side of the case. He looks and tells me it must be in a seperate locked bag.

I advise TSA regs says it can be in the same bag but choice is up the airline and show him the regs. He looks and says he doesn't care what TSA says, "This is New York City and I say it has to go in a different and locked bag." End of discussion.

Fortunately I had an extra lock and moved ammo to my suitcase and locked it. An airline employee then walked me to TSA who did not open or question either bag. Oh well !!!!!!!

[musher]

My latest TSA experience. I'm sorry I didn't hold my ground...

TSA Blunder (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93095)

musher

[john from md]

Gentlemen:

When you have a problem at the airport with TSA, ask first to see the screener's supervisor, then the Assistant Federal Security Director or the Federal Security Director. Don't ask for an LEO because they are usually not familiar with Federal Laws and are trained to respond to TSA personnel at airports.

If you show them a copy of the regulations they will back down. Make sure you ask each person for their name also. Afterwards, send a letter to John Ashcroft and each of your representatives.

Gradually they are putting TSA in their place.

John from MD ( who happens to also work for Uncle Sugar )

[UnknownSailor]

Reading all these stories has reinforced my determination not to fly unless I'm on U.S. Navy owned aircraft.

I have only flown once with firearms, and that was pre-WTC attack.

I have a Gunsite class in september. I'm driving down from Washington State.

[dance varmint]

Same experience at Indianapolis last Memorial Day weekend. The airline agent walked me downstairs to the screening entrance, took my keys behind the door, and as she was heading back upstairs I protested her violating regulations. After about 15 minutes, a lackadaisical TSA screener came from behind the door and returned my keys, and I also voiced my complaint to him but he said "we're just going by SOP". I took names and planned on complaining in writing, but after realizing how inept the whole damn system is, I said F it.

[C-Note]

Flying to New Orleans, LA from Fort Lauderdale, FL. Louisiana and Florida have reciprocity so I can carry while I'm there.

Get to Fort Lauderdale airport early in the AM. Go up to Skycap and inform him that I'm declaring firearms in my checked baggage and tip him 5 bucks. He says to follow him inside since this has to be handled at the customer service counter. We proceed past about 40 people to the front of the line, saving me from at least a 1-hour wait!

Tell the agent behind the counter that I'm declaring firearms. She has me open the luggage and the locked firearms case to demonstrate they are unloaded. I clear my G22, G29 and Kel-Tec P32 for her. Ammo for said firearms is also inside in a hard plastic ammo case.

She fills out a tag and places it in the case. I close and lock the case, and zip up the luggage. She checks the baggage in. That's it.

The flight back from New Orleans was exactly the same. Tipped the Skycap 5 bucks and he marches me to the front of a very long line at customer service. This time, the guy who was previously first on line started bitching when I received priority treatment, and promptly shup up when I pulled out my handguns! Ran through the same drill. Same outcome.

Extremely satisfied with SouthWest Airlines.

Moral of the story: The quickest way through an airport is to bring a gun!...

...and 5 bucks. :D

[Sindawe]

with the quickest way through the air terminal being having a firearm to check. What about the idea of picking up a used, but decent condition handgun, maybe a wheel gun, and some ammo for same. Take it with you on all air trips. Maybe never shoot the thing, just use it as a 'talisman' to expidite one's checkin procedure and bypass the lines that always form on checkin/baggage check.

[alan]

And to think that these TSA dummies are FEDERAL AGENTS. Sort of like the FBI. FAMOUS BUT INCOMPETENT.

[john from md]

Actually the screeners are just that, screeners. They are not sworn agents.

John from MD

[MarkDido]

Prior to 9/11 airline security screeners were:

- Employed and paid by the airline or airport authority

- Low paid

- Either unmotivated, uncaring, inept or a combination of the three.

- Able to be fired from their job for any number of reasons

After 9/11, the newly professionalized screeners, at least according to Chuckie Schumer (D-NY) are:

- Employed by the Federal Government and paid with our tax dollars

- More highly paid

- Either unmotivated, uncaring, inept or a combination of the three

- Protected by the Federal Employees Union. It would take an act of god to get these folks fired now

So, are we any safer?

[alan]

C-Note:

Re the experience you descxribed, certainly soiunds like it was forth a ten spot, however re what you described, both checked handguns AND ammunition IN THE SAME CHECKED LUGGAGE OR CASE, it was my understanding that this was one of those NO-NO'S.

No reason for that other than "regulations", obviously a poor justification for arrant nonsense, but thayt was supposedly the "straight skinny". Corrrect me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

[Malone LaVeigh]

I flew Continental from New Orleans yesterday with 2 handguns in a locked case. I was told the ammunition could either be in the same case or another case, which didn't need to be locked. I elected to put it in a seperate case, because otherwise it would be illegal as soon as I got in my car in Cal. There was a person I took to be a TSA agent behind the counter, but the regular ticket agent had me open the case and show her they were unloaded. I then relocked the case and checked it through. I'm not really sure what the agent was doing there, except I guess he issued the little red tag they had me sign and put in the case.

All in all, I got the impression it was something they did frequently. I was a little surprised on the other end in Sacramento when they came through on the carrousel with the rest of the luggage.

[C-Note]

Hi Alan,

This is straight from SouthWest's website:
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/guns.html

Ammunition

Small arms ammunition for personal use (provided it is properly packed) is permissible in checked baggage only.

The ammunition may be placed in the same container as the firearm and must be securely packed in cardboard (fiber), wood, or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.

When checking ammunition, Customers are limited to 11 pounds gross weight (ammunition plus container) per person.

Magazines or clips containing ammunition must be securely packaged (placed in another small box or in a secure cutout in the carrying case, in order to protect the primer of the ammunition).

Make sure guns are unloaded and definitely never transport a gun in your carryon baggage!

Gunpowder (black powder) and primers or percussion caps are not allowed in checked or carryon baggage.

Loose ammunition or loose loaded magazines and/or clips are not allowed.

[alan]

C-Note:

Thanks for the response.

My question goes back a number of years, almost 20 in fact.

I was transporting a pistol, declared in checked luggage. No problem with that.

I had mentioned to the counter agent that "there was some ammunition in the luggage also. Got no particular response to that, and I did not mention that "some ammunition" was about 1500 rounds of 9mm and 45 ACP. Yes, the bag was rather heavy.

Anyhow, I was later on told in conversation that the declared pistol was O.K., but the ammumnition and pistol, in same checked luggage would have been a problem, if the counter person had known the law/regulations. My flight was on U.S. Air, from Pittsbrugh to Charlotte N.C.

Ignorance might, after all, be bliss.

[Hypnogator]

FWIW, I flew from Atlanta to Minneapolis-St.Paul over the weekend on business, transporting my Taurus PT-145 Millennium Pro with two magazines in my bag.

In Atlanta, when I told the ticket agent I had an unloaded firearm in the bag, she got the orange "Unloaded" card, and asked to see the weapon. I showed it to her, and demonstrated it was unloaded by pulling the slide partway back. Not sure she could see into the chamber, but she accepted it, had me put the tag inside the gun box, then told me to lock the box, which I did, then had me place it in the bag and lock the zippers. She then told me to take it over to the TSA Security checkpoint, which I did. I told the TSA agent about the weapon, and he asked if it was unloaded, did the agent give me the tag, was the weapon inside a hard sided case, with the tag in the case, and was there any ammunition in the case. The ammo was in two loaded magazines in a hard double magazine pouch, elsewhere in the bag. After I told him that there was no ammo in the case, I was temporarily uneasy, wondering if he meant the pistol case, or the bag. Since he referred to the bag as "bag," though, I didn't anticipate any problem. There was none -- the bag went through the X-ray machine, and the guy who took it out pointed to it and asked if it was mine. I nodded, and he put it on the conveyer, motioning me to go on to the gate. No problems encountered.

In Minneapolis on the return flight, I notified the ticket agent about the firearm, and she called over a TSA security officer, who looked at the gun (never checked the chamber), put the orange tag in the case, and locked the case with one of my padlocks. He then put the gun in the bag, zipped it up, locked it and sent it on its way on the conveyer. Again, no problems.

Then, as I was starting to get in line to go through security, I realized that when I emptied my pockets, I had neglected to take out my S&W SWAT automatic knife, which was clipped to the side of my pocket! DAMN! :banghead: Now What!??! I hastily got out of line and returned to the ticket agent, where the TSA guy was still standing. I told them I'd forgotten my knife, and asked if there was any way I could put it in my bag. (Thought I'd probably have to try to find an envelope and mail it home -- fortunately, had plenty of time.) The TSA guy said he remembered my bag, and offered to put it in one of the outside pockets for me. I gave him the knife, and spent my flight home wondering if I'd just helped arm a TSA security officer. To make a long story short, the knife was in the pocket when I got my bag back in Atlanta.

My experience was positive on both ends, with neither the Delta Airlines people nor the TSA officers treating my transporting the weapon as anything but routine. Never was asked about ammo, and no problems transporting it in a soft bag with the zippers locked with a luggage padlock. Just had to be locked in a hard-sided case inside the bag, was all.

[jimpeel]

Sounds like you encountered TSA agents who had a lick of common sense. Its the rest of them I worry about.

[ctdonath]

In addition to keeping copies of those regs handy, also carry a copy of the Firearms Owners' Protection Act to show your right to transport firearms period.

If I knew how to file a suit, or could find a supportive lawyer (surprisingly hard to find), I'd use the FOPA on the transit cop who, after an hour of trying every possible way to refuse my desire to transport a G26 in checked-in luggage, finally just declared "we are the law of this airport and you are not taking that on this flight" (got it on tape even).

[patentmike]

In San Jose last week the American ticket agent asked for my key during boarding. I told here that I was passenger and that I was supposed to retain it under federal law. I sure wish I had copy of the regs with me, because whe insisted that it was necessary to board the flight. She called
the TSA guy who came up from the flight line to get the key, went away for 10 minutes, and then came back and let me get on the flight. (Apparently we departed late just for me.) I didn't feel great about the "security" of having an unlocked firearm down on the flight line.

"That's like a UPS clerk telling you to write "handgun inside" on the outside of the package when shipping it."

First thing I did after claiming my bags was to make sure my firearm was still in the bag. It was easy to spot the bag, someone had put a big red "F" on the tag. There was no little "we rummaged in your bag" courtesy notice either, like there was in my backpack, probably another law broken there. Next time I carry a copy of the regs, and an extra copy for the airline personnel as well, who should also take an interest in preventing TSA personnel from creating security risks. Used to be you checked a locked case and that was that, now you have TSA people opening them up out on the flight line and marking the bag?

[Guntalk]

>>That's like a UPS clerk telling you to write "handgun inside" on the outside of the package when shipping it.<<

It is a violation of federal law for any common carrier to identify on the outside of a container that the package contains a firearm. This applies to UPS, Fedex, or the airlines.

The law?

The Brady Law.

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

I just flew from Las Vegas to Fort Lauderdale. Declared my locked unloaded Kimber 45 in hard-sided Samsonite checked luggage to the American Airlines counter agent, who was very professional and polite.

The AA counter agent inserted my declaration form, had me carry my luggage over to the TSA agent who also was very professional and courteous and I was 'done' much faster than I expected and with zero hassle on anyone's part. The TSA agent simply verified my sidearm was unloaded after I opened the luggage for inspection and we chatted briefly about my Kimber .45. Then off went my luggage without fanfare.

Everything went just right. I had a copy of the regs and the TSA printout on carrying firearms and ammunition inside the luggage as well, and never did the key to either the luggage or the locked carrying case leave my possession.

[TamThompson]

I guess I was lucky back in April when I flew up to compete in the Olympic Trials in whitewater slalom. I took two handguns with me, and did not have any problems at either the Austin, Texas airport (AUS), or at the very small South Bend, Indiana aiport.

After reading all the horror stories, though, and given the FACT that airports in the U.S. are de facto police states, I will drive whenever possible.

Best,

[PressCheck]

My Glock has as many frequent flyers as I do. NEVER had a problem.

[Patent Works]

We just flew out of a Western airport, (flying SWA) where we had an interesting experience. After properly declaring a pistol, we went to the screening equipment to submit our checked baggage. After learning that we had declared a pistol, the TSA gal took out a red magic marker and put a big block "S" on the luggage tag.

Knowing the illegality of external marking, we objected, suggesting getting a fresh tag. She said that she would send it through, and they would put a "TSA" sticker on it to black out the "F". When it came out of the machine, I asked the TSA agent at the other end if I could check it our to be sure the "F" was blocked. He refused, and sent it with a smaller sticker than the "F", to the conveyor over my objections, claiming it was fully blocked.

We complained, asking for a supervisor. She arrived, and I asked for names and badge numbers. The guy who refused my request to inspect the bag refused to show his badge. After discussing this grievous problem with the sup, he did, fluttering it, to avoid it being read. We got all the pertinent names and numbers, and started to leave.

Then, one of the TSA folks told us we had to stay so that they could make THEIR report. Knowing that they had no legal authority to detain us, and hungry for a meal before our impending flight, we ignored their illegal attempt to detain us and walked away. While I was in the lav, the burly TSA agent who ignored the request to check the bag, and who refused to provide his ID, approached my petite wife, and insisted that she provide her name and other info. Having a clue about her rights, she told him about his lack of rights to do so, in spite of feeling intimidated and abused.

Then, when we got to the security point, we found our boadring passes red-flagged, so that we got the "rectal" exam. The TSA manager later claimed (not credibly) that the SWA agent made the complaint, as if our merely pointing out the TSA violation of federal law, and refusing to be illegally detained was grounds for a retaliatory "red-bin" search.

They opened up every aspect of our luggage, emptying out our wallets and purses, and re-screening shoes that have never before failed any screening. Major punishment for asserting our rights against TSA illegalities.

The report will shortly be filed.

[alan]

Patent Works:

Re your experience and other posts thas I've read, it would appear that the chief feature of the TSA GOON SQUADS, that's what they sound like in some places, is inconstient performance to say the very least. Of course, in some cases, it might simply be the infamous "small mnionds" business, as with Give the bureaucratic types a dimes worth of "power and or authority, and they go wild".

Likely, the best thing that you can do it to raise as much hell as possible, in a loud a manner as is possible, for talking politely to these clods does not see to work with some of them. Might turn out to be like talking to the proverbial mule. First, you need to get their attention, accomplished with a 2 x 4, between the eyes. It's sad that some things seem to work this way, but then one is dealing with the personification of "the bureaucratic mind", in all it's "glory".

[sawhitt]

I wonder how pissed they'd be if you changed your combination during or after the search?

According to the TSA, you may be required to surrender your combination to the inspector. That leaves what is essentially an unlocked case unless you change the combo.

[Ozone77]

Let me help you all out. I am a TSA screener, so I am qualified to speak. Our Standard Operating Procedures clearly state that only the firearm owner can have the keys/combination to the locked, hard-sided case. However, if we need to open said case, we are allowed to request the keys/combination from the owner. Now, if this offends your sensibilities, ask that the screening of said case be done in front of you...that is not an unreasonable request and is supposed to be done anyway. Insulting and being disrespectful to the screener and/or supervisor is shameful behavior and really is not necessary. If you don't like the way air travel is today, I can empathize, but Osama bin Laden and al Qaida are to blame, not TSA screeners.

A thought on the quality of our workforce... we were not selected and hired by the Federal government. We were selected and hired by a private contractor, NCS Pearson. NCS Pearson, as you may know, has had a lot of problems with quality control and have been accused of defrauding the government by billing them (govt.) in excess of the contract estimate. Also, NCS Pearson hired the first people through the door to supervisory positions with minimal consideration of qualifications or abilities. What we now have is a force of managers that worked for the airlines or the private screening companies that were in place pre-9/11. The screening force, conversely, is made up of a large number of laid-off employees of other fields (ie: computer analysis, heating and cooling, insurance, armed security, etc). A lot of the screeners are far more intelligent and informed about security and terrorism than the management. For example, I am the only screener in my work area (of about 80+ screeners and supervisors) that has read the 9/11 Commission Report - the report that tells us what the TSA works to prevent.

Anyway, have patience with the TSA...perhaps in a few years they will get their act together; meanwhile, I'm getting another job!

Perhaps I'm just ranting...I hope this makes sense...

[John/az]

"If you don't like the way air travel is today, I can empathize, but Osama bin Laden and al Qaida are to blame, not TSA screeners."

I just had to respond to this.

True, the screeners are not to blame, but really, the way air travel is today is not Osama bin Laden and al Qaida's fault either. We can lay the blame directly upon our elected officials, and thusly upon the American people.

There were much simpler solutions, but they, of course, allowed the People far too much liberty in excercising their God given rights, and far less governmental control. Which, in the end, is what it all boils down to anyway.

Just my 2 cents...

[Byron Quick]

I'm glad there ain't no place I want to go where I have to fly to get there. There's places here in the states where I won't even drive to because of their idiotic laws much less an airport.

[Drakejake]

Guns and Ammunition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guns
Customers are responsible for knowing and following the firearms laws of the state(s) that they will be traveling to, from, and through.
Our Customers must declare the gun to the Customer Service Agent at the ticket counter (no firearms will be accepted curbside) and prove that the firearm(s) chambers are free of ammunition and the magazine clip has been removed (when applicable). Paint guns and BB guns are considered the same as all other firearms.
Firearms must be encased in a hard-sided, LOCKED container that is of sufficient strength to withstand normal handling, as follows:
A firearm in a hard-sided, locked container may be placed inside a soft-sided, unlocked suitcase.
A firearm placed inside a hard-sided, locked suitcase does not have to be encased in a container manufactured for the transportation of firearms.
Only the Customer checking the luggage should retain the key or combination to the lock. No exceptions will be made.
The Customer is entitled to check sporting firearms in addition to his or her normal free baggage allowance. We allow multiple firearms to be transported inside one hard-sided case.
Southwest Airlines assumes no liability for the misalignment of sights on firearms, including those equipped with telescopic sights.
Firearms are never allowed in carryon luggage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ammunition
Small arms ammunition for personal use (provided it is properly packed) is permissible in checked baggage only.
The ammunition may be placed in the same container as the firearm and must be securely packed in cardboard (fiber), wood, or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
When checking ammunition, Customers are limited to 11 pounds gross weight (ammunition plus container) per person.
Magazines or clips containing ammunition must be securely packaged (placed in another small box or in a secure cutout in the carrying case, in order to protect the primer of the ammunition).
Make sure guns are unloaded and definitely never transport a gun in your carryon baggage!
Gunpowder (black powder) and primers or percussion caps are not allowed in checked or carryon baggage.
Loose ammunition or loose loaded magazines and/or clips are not allowed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Roon]

I'm flying from Charlotte to SFO for Thanksgiving, and the U.S.Airways regs differ from TSA guidelines in that ammo cannot be in a plastic ammo case, such as MTM ammo boxes. USAir prefers original packaging for the cartridges...

---------------------------
TSA guidelines:

"Check with your airline or travel agent to see if ammunition is permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. If ammunition is permitted, it must be declared to the airline at check-in. Small arms ammunitions for personal use must be securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply."

---------------------------
US Airways regs:

Handguns, pistols, rifles, and shotguns are accepted as checked baggage. For US Airways to assume liability for the firearm, ensure it is packed in a hard-sided case or in the manufacturer's crush proof case. We require that the case be locked or the luggage containing the case be locked.

You may substitute a checked firearm as one of your free checked bags. This may include:
One rifle case containing up to two rifles, one shooting mat, noise suppressors, and small rifle tools, or Two shotguns and two shotgun cases, or One pistol case containing up to five pistols.

You may also transport up to eleven pounds of ammunition. Please ensure that the ammunition is packed in fiber, wood, or metal boxes, or in the manufacturer's original packaging.

Please allow additional time to check-in at the ticket counter. Federal law requires that firearms in checked baggage be unloaded. Each customer transporting a firearm must sign a Firearm Declaration Form SS-161, declaring that the firearm is unloaded. A copy of the form will be kept in the locked case. Hard-sided, lockable pistol and rifle cases may be purchased at most US Airways ticket counters.

Laws regarding the carriage of firearms may vary from state to state. Please contact local law enforcement agencies for information regarding firearm regulations.

[Brasso]

If they want safety they should hand everyone a K-bar as they board the plane. Seriously.

[Remington788]

Just flew from Springfield IL to Seattle and back on ATA with two handguns and had no problems other than the ticket agent at Seattle having to ask three other people where the form for firearms in checked baggage was.

One interesting thing of note though was that if the firearm was a handgun, you needed a locked hard shelled container with name and address inside the container but if it was a rifle or shotgun, no locked container needed. I thought that that was strange, but then again this was the first time I traveled by air and took along firearms.

[sturmruger]

Ozone77 I have a few questions that I tried to PM you, but for some reason you have PMs disabled. PM me if you get a chance I will be flying out of MSP next week.



Thanks

[einstein]

Remington 788 said you don't need a hard case for a rifle.

Here's my story, boneheaded as the final result was:

I was in Florida (Crestview, in the northern part of the state) for the funeral of my father. His girlfriend gave me his Winchester 22 rifle.

I went to Walmart and bought a case for 12 bucks. (Some of you are probably saying "A-ha..."). And two combination padlocks.

I was looking forward to carrying the rifle through Burbank (CA) airport.

My sister and her husband take me to the airport on their way south to Miami. She has to use the bathroom so they come in with me.

It's a small airport. No lines. An hour before the flight.

"I have a rifle in this case", I say when I get to the counter. As the guy is filling out a red ticket (I'm guessing it's the one that goes in the case with the rifle) he says, "And it's not loaded". Very cool. A statement. Not a question. "Correct", I say, "and there's no ammo in the case".

I'm feeling good now. Was very slightly apprehensive at first since this was my first time travelling with a firearm.

"Let me see something", he says as he hoists the case that was leaning against the counter in that cutaway area where you place your luggage. He lays it across the counter. He sees the center hole under the handle doesn't have a padlock. I fish a spare one out of my shoulder back and attached it to the case.

Even with that he's able to spread open the case far enough to get his hand in and grab the rifle.

I'm glad my sister had to take a pee.

He says, still pleasant, "We can't have this. I'm sorry, sir, you can't bring this on the airplane".

Cheap case. My fault.

My sister and her husband took it with them to Miami. They'll ship it to me.

As for the rest of my TSA experience, just getting through the hand-carry and personal search checks to get to the boarding areas (one plane change each way plus time to kill to go out and smoke a cigarette makes for about 6 times) was fine. I wasn't pulled out of line. I wasn't rectal searched.

But it didn't make me feel feel any safer.

In the small Fort Walton Beach (or Valparaiso) airport near Crestview, Florida I clocked 6 TSA people and one of those big luggage scanner machines. The enormity of the whole TSA enterprise really hit me. That's a lot of money for one small airport. And the Dallas/Fort Worth airport is like a secured fortress.

And we're paying for it.

Years from now, when this security stuff is WAY out of hand, people are going the ask. "How did it get like this?"

einstein

[alan]

einstein wrote:

"Years from now, when this security stuff is WAY out of hand, people are going the ask. How did it get like this?"

What do you mean by "years from now". This "security stuff" is out of hand RDN, that's Right Damned Now.

[Poohgyrr]

No wonder I prefer to drive. And I'll save my pistol hardcases too.

FWIW, my last trip to Atlanta, right after the Olympics (the Xmas decorations were still up) went very smooth with Delta.... And the return flights went well- my baggage (and contents) made it on the plane (I didn't), and was safe in their office back home when I arrived the next day.......
:what:

[The Real Hawkeye]

I've had my share of difficulties with this in the past, about which I have written here previously. One time, in Laguardia, a LEO was called over, and he proceeded to take out my 1911 and examine it without my permission. He held it, showed it to his partner who seemed to admire it, and then after a while put it back in. He then proceded to lecture me on having hollow point ammo. He said I had no use for them as they were designed to kill people, not for sport. I informed him that they are designed to stop attackers, and that I was licensed to carry it for that purpose. He seemed unhappy about that, and decided to confiscate my ammo because they were not in original container (They were in an after market container). The whole time I was given the impression by the LEO that I might well not only miss my flight, but might end up in jail, but I made my flight. This is not a good situation in a free country.

P.S. Almost invariably, when in NY airports, I get loud oohs and aahs from the police when they see my weapon. Never get this anywhere else. I think it's because these guys were raised in a place (New York City) where handguns are not for regular folks, and the only handgun they have experience with is a Glock 9 mm, and that only since academy.

[alan]

Gentlemen and any Ladies present:

IFI REMEMBER CORRECTLY, the major thrust of this airline/airport "security", sort of after the fact, with pilots still largely UNARMED, correct me if I'm wrong, was to generate FEELINGS OF SAFETY/SECURITY. I guess that that end has been accomplished, FEELINGS of whatever.

By the way, if those federalized screeners were such a great idea, how come some airports are now, or soon will be allowed to go back to private screeners.

[Don of Kalifornia]

Fly back from Oakland this morning. Was glad I was first one in line when Southwest opened at 4:30 am. I was thru checking my baggage and my Pelican case with two rifles and three hand guns in it, checking my bagage and firearms took only about 10 minutes. Both the lady with Southwest and the gentleman with TSA were completely profesional. Both need to make sure all firearms were unloaded and knew exactly what I was doing when showing them the open actions.

Neatest part was the TSA agent commented on how nice my Garand is, and asked how old it is..(it's a 1942)

Makes me feel good I fly with Southwest every month, and with they way I was treated I will keep flying southwest.

[musher]

I've finally learned to carry copies of the law with me. The last time I returned from Anchorage to Fairbanks on Frontier, they tried to put the big red 'steal me' tag on the outside of my bag that says "FIREARM" Frontier is a commuter with no passenger screening, but they run their checked bags through TSA screening for flights originating in Anchorage.

Now I ran into this about 6 months ago in Fairbanks and educated the counter clerk then followed up with a letter and citation of the relevant statute to the company. Haven't had them try to tag the bag on the outside in Fairbanks since.

When I objected in Anchorage, it was clear the counter clerks had no idea what the rules were. I gave them a copy of 922e and 924 (the statute prohibiting marking the bag and the penalty for doing it)

When I told the clerk it was a felony, she got a bit nervous. She told me if they ran it down to TSA without marking the bag, then TSA would bring it back.

I told her to go ahead and I would wait. Sure enough, here came 2 TSA agents bouncing back up with my bag. They were very polite and just asked for the keys so that they could open the bag, see my declaration tag, and probe my foam. After they were done, the clerk approached them with the copy of the laws that I had given her and asked them whether I was full of it (in a polite manner)

I was kind of suprised that the TSA agents mostly had it right and told her that she was not allowed to visibly tag the bags (they got it wrong in that they said it was an FAA regulation). While I watched they established a new procedure for dealing with firearms that involved the Frontier desk calling a special number they gave her to ask for a TSA agent to inspect the bag at the counter.

I've had several folks (including counter clerks) ask me why I make a fuss over these things since they're just minor details. I guess my feeling is that if I can go to jail or get hit with a large fine over 'minor details' like forgetting to declare my firearm or neglecting to put the tag in the bag, then they ought to pay the same strict attention to the rules as well.

[alan]

Musher:

I suppose it's largely a question of how one spells or defines the "minor" in minor details, however if I, the PAYING PASSENGER am required to act in accordance with particular rules, then everyone else involved has to also.

Any other way, we have a bureaucratic police state. We do not want that sort of thing, do we, or have we already got it?

[musher]

Seems like it's certainly creeping up on us.

[JPM70535]

Just thought I would relay my recent experience flying with firearms.

On a trip from Tampa Fl. to Atlanta Ga. I found the process darn near painless. On the Tampa end, I told the Skycap I needed to check in with the Agent as I had a firearm to declare in checked baggage. No problem, he escorted me and the bag containing the firearm to the Delta desk. The Agent asked me to unlock the case and show the firearm to be empty. Once done, I filled out tag, placed it in case, relocked the pistol case and was escorted to TSA where I did the whole thing over again, and that was it. Things in Atlanta on the return trip went even easier if that is possible. Tell Skycap, Open case at curbside check in, fill out tag,, relock case and that was it, Case dissapears, only to reappear in Tampa as expected.

One sour note. TSA was in rare form over the Holiday. I never saw so many patdowns of 75-85 year olds in wheelchairs being asked to walk, being frisked, deprived of their shoes and otherwise humiliated as I saw in Atlanta on Saturday. Not one of them fit the profile of a terrorist and there was not a towel on any head in the line. Makes me wonder, are we any better protected by the Federal employees than we were under the $5 per hour private screeners?

JPM

[Jeff OTMG]

Since this thread ended up as a 'sticky' I will repost more current links and info here. I had done this as a separate post about a month ago.

One thing to add, you do NOT surrender the combination to the locking hard sided case to TSA.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As some of you know, I fly quite a bit and always transport handguns in my checked baggage. There is some more recent info for those of you who fly and wish to carry the current info around with you to challenge your local TSA people and other airport authorities.

Oklahoma City has recently added the CAT SCAN machines in the bowels of the new part of the airport. Problem is that TSA did not bother to educate the airline personnel on the correct procedures, leaving it to me. I contacted the TSA guy in charge of screening at OKC and explained the problem to him. Two weeks later, everybody knew what they were doing.

Indianapolis has gone backwards. I thought that I had them straightened out after the mess I experienced in August 2003 and that things were fine since then. I was leaving there last weekend after a 6 month absence. The bags still disappear and you wait for clearance, but once again they are asking the passenger to surrender the key and combination to the luggage. If you do you are in violation of federal law. After being shown the following information, and actually reading it I might add, the TSA representatives agreed to do it my way.

From the TSA website:
http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/...torial_1666.xml

Transporting Special Items

Firearms and Ammunition

Firearms - There are specific regulatory requirements to transport a firearm:

* The firearm must be checked with the air carrier as luggage. Firearms are prohibited from carry-on baggage.
* The firearm must be declared orally or in writing in accordance with the air carrier's procedures (contact your air carrier for their specific procedures).
* The firearm must be unloaded.
* The firearm must be carried in a hard-sided container.
* The container must be locked.
* The passenger must provide the key or combination to the screener if it is necessary to open the container, and then remain present during screening to take back possession of the key after the container is cleared.

If the passenger is not present during screening, and the container must be opened, the air carrier is required to locate the passenger so that the passenger will be present during screening.

Ammunition - Ammunition is likewise prohibited from carry-on luggage. Ammunition may not be carried loose. It must travel in the manufacturer's packaging or other packaging suitable for transport. Consult your air carrier to determine quantity limitations or whether the ammunition must be packed separately from the firearm.


This same information is available at the TSA site under the FAQ's.
http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?c...90005198004ad07

Q: Can I transport guns or firearms?

A: Guns and Firearms are NOT permitted in your carry-on baggage, but depending on the policy of your airline, they may be included with your checked baggage. Check with your airline or travel agent to see if firearms are permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. Firearms carried as checked baggage MUST be unloaded, packed in a locked hard-sided gun case, and declared to the airline at check-in. Only you, the passenger, may have the key or combination.

Q: What about ammunition?

A: Ammunition is NOT permitted in your carry-on baggage, but depending on the policy of your airline, may be included with your checked baggage. Check with your airline or travel agent to see if ammunition is permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. If ammunition is permitted, it must be declared to the airline at check-in. Small arms ammunitions for personal use must be securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply.


TSA also acknowledges that there regs are codified in Title 49 of the CFR:
http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?theme=79

The TSA issues and administers Transportation Security Regulations (TSRs), which are codified in Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Chapter XII, parts 1500 through 1699. Many TSRs are former rules of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) that were transferred to TSA when TSA assumed FAA's civil aviation security function on February 17, 2002.

You will need two parts of the CFR. One applies to you, the traveler, the other to the TSA agent.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...cfr1540.111.htm

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 8]
[Revised as of October 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR1540.111]
[Page 295]
TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
PART 1540--CIVIL AVIATION SECURITY: GENERAL RULES--Table of Contents

Subpart B--Responsibilities of Passengers and Other Individuals and Persons

Sec. 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.
.
.
(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for
transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).
(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless--
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally
or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a
firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is unloaded;
(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and
(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the
passenger retains the key or combination.
(3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.
(d) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of
ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm.
Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing
carriage of ammunition on aircraft.


http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...cfr1544.203.htm

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 8]
[Revised as of October 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR1544.203]
[Page 320-321]
TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
PART 1544--AIRCRAFT OPERATOR SECURITY: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS
--Table of Contents

Subpart C--Operations

Sec. 1544.203 Acceptance and screening of checked baggage.
.
.
(f) Firearms in checked baggage. No aircraft operator may knowingly
permit any person to transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).
(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless--
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally
or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in
the baggage is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container;
(iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the
individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and

[[Page 321]]

(iv) The checked baggage containing the firearm is carried in an
area that is inaccessible to passengers, and is not carried in the
flightcrew compartment,.
(3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.
(g) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of
ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm.
Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing
carriage of ammunition on aircraft.


I highly recommend that you print out the TSA site pages with their logo as well as the CFR and carry it with you while you travel. THERE ARE MANY TSA AND AIRLINE PERSONNEL WHO STILL DO NOT KNOW THE LAWS THAT GOVERN THEIR OWN JOBS.

[alan]

Nothing quite equals a plain English statement of position and any particular business/commercial/philosopcal interests that an individual might have.

[freewheeling]

God, this is SO freakin' tedious. Why is it that everything apparently has to be restated ten or twelve different ways, and there have to be dozens of illustrative stories?

So, basically you have to declaire the weapons at check in and have to be prepared to accomodate a visual or physcal inspection. Guns unloaded in a locked hard case for which only you have the key or combo, and only in checked luggage. Ammo can be carried in an appropriate container in the checked luggage but is limitted to 11 lbs including the case. Good idea to carry the regs with you.

Does that about cover it?

What was it Crosby, Stills and Nash used to say? Confusion has its cost, or something like that?

For God's sake, keep it simple!

[cpileri]

I have opportunity to fly out of Austin,TX to Indiana where my CHL is recognized, and was considering mailing a pistol to myself c/o the recepient out in IN.
But after reading this thread, well i still can't decide?
What would you all recommend?
C-

p.s. here's a thread you might enjoy:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=115943

C-

[C1PNR]

Jeff OTMG,

I tried your links and most came up Page not found (error 404). :banghead:

My intent was to print out the regs in case I must fly. :barf:

[Victor Romen]

Flew out of Sacramento the other day and the ticket agent (America West) requested that I leave the luggage with handguns in it unlocked. I didn't feel totally comfortable with this, but complied. She said to wait by the counter while the luggage was checked in the back and she would give me the okay to continue past security to my gate. Shortly there after she gave me the go ahead and said they had relocked my luggage. However, when I arrived at my destination my case was not locked and very close to opening up (all contents accounted for though). TSA at my destination saw this and were very unhappy about the situation. I think next time I will put up more of a protest. Losing four handguns would have been a nightmare.

[alan]

But wait, there's more.

According to a small article appearing in Saturday's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, page A-3, which picked it up from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, the TSA has been instructed by this newly passed Intelligence Reform Act, to "review" it's compilation of "prohibited items".

Seems that as of February, this new listing will contain cigarette lighters and book matches. Interestingly, lighters, Zippo's for instance, would likely show up on metal detectors, but paper match books, I strongly doubt, which would lead to excactly what, one wonders. Thank you so very much Mr. Richard Reid, the failed Shoebomber, who should have received "flying lessons" for his trouble.

Of course, this Intelligence Reform Act, so-called, seems to be a repository for all manner of "little noticed" bits, "federalization" of drivers licenses as of 2006 to mention one thing,as seems to have become more and more the way things are done by our CONGRESS CRITTERS. I might be terribly old fashioned, anacronistic and otherwise terribly out of date, but this sort of things seems a hellish way to do what used to be known as The Peoples Business.

Giving the devil their do, they did get one thing right. It seems that this legislation told the states to quit showing social security numbers on drivers licenses, which I understand that some did. I've always wondered as to why The Congress allowed this action in the first place, as well as how deeply entwined the SS Number will remain in and or with things having absolutely NOTHING to do with Social Security?

Anyhow, I suppose that the thing could well be described in the following terms. THE PLOT THICKENS.

[Rick R]

Ah the joys of living in a small city. Here in Charleston WV I flew with guns twice last year. On both occasions I walked up to the ticket counter (no line to speak of ) and signed the orange unloaded firearm affidavit, locked it in my long gun case and off they went. The fellow at the Delta counter is quite nonchalant about folks with guns.

I did find a form from TSA advising that they'd checked the contents of the other bag I'd checked enroute to Salt Lake City but they probably noted the ammo in the bag during some scan. The case with the 870, AR-15 and SIG P229 went locked without a quibble.

Arriving in RSA with guns was amusing but still not a great deal of problems just waiting in line with 40 other fellows for the South African Police to issue us licenses to possess really big guns. :D

[Jeff OTMG]

C1PNR, at your request I have tracked down the newest links for the TSA info as well as the sections in 49CFR for your printing pleasure.

TSA Firearms and Ammunition regs update FAQ's (the printable version)
http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?content=09000519800ac232&print=yes
http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?content=090005198004ad07&print=yes

The link where TSA admits that the information is in 49CFR remains the same:
http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?theme=79

The pertinent sections of 49CFR follow with link for printing after the description:
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 8]
[Revised as of October 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR1540.111]
[Page 295]
TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
PART 1540--CIVIL AVIATION SECURITY: GENERAL RULES--Table of Contents

Subpart B--Responsibilities of Passengers and Other Individuals and Persons

Sec. 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.
is found here:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=8af248b7703e77893c4acbfda166cd41&rgn=div8&view=text&node=49:8.1.3.7.8.2.10.6&idno=49

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 8]
[Revised as of October 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR1544.203]
[Page 320-321]
TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION
CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
PART 1544--AIRCRAFT OPERATOR SECURITY: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS
--Table of Contents

Subpart C--Operations

Sec. 1544.203 Acceptance and screening of checked baggage.
is found here:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=8af248b7703e77893c4acbfda166cd41&rgn=div8&view=text&node=49:8.1.3.7.10.3.10.2&idno=49

[C1PNR]

Jeff,

Thank you very much for providing these links and information. I certainly do appreciate your efforts. :)

I hope I never need to use this information, as I think today I prefer to drive if taking firearms. However, one never knows what may happen next week and this information may well make the difference between a smooth trip and a hassle. :D

[alan]

Re the bureaucrats at TSA, as well as the idiots at various airlines, and those in The Congress (House and Senate), and my own congress critters, to whom I have asked the following question at one time or another, for want of something better to do at the moment, I will ask it once more.

Regarding the 4 airliners that were hijacked on 11 September, 2001 how far was this hijacking likely to have progressed had,

1. The pilots been armed, as for many years they were REQUIRED to be.
2. There had been any of those vaunted Sky Marshals onboard.
3. Any of the passengers had been armed.

While the following conclusion is speculative, it still seems likely that the answer would have been NOT FAR. By the way, events in Gold Finger notwithstanding, even a couple of .45 caliber holes in the hull of a commercial airliner would be unlikely to cause catestrophic decompression depicted in the film.

This is evidenced by the fact that an airliner on a flight to or from Hawaii lost a significant portion of the cabin roof, yet the plane remained in the air, and landed under control of the pilot.

[DNA]

If you are LEO and plan on escorting someone to the gate. Please make sure to tell a TSA supervisor that you are armed and sign in otherwise, if you make it through the threshold on the metal detector you could be in a world of hurt. TSA fines range from $3000-7000 for such violations.

[vito]

I must admit I found this thread very interesting, but not at all surprising. Why would anyone expect TSA officials to know what their own rules are regarding the transport of firearms? The level of ignorance and blind implementation of policy shows that the TSA does not want its officials to use any degree of intelligent judgement. The case in LA where a GI Joe doll's 6 inch plastic M16 was confiscated is a great illustration of this problem. The responsibility for this goes to President Bush, who for reasons that escape me, retained Norman Minetta as Transportation Secretary from the Clinton administration. Mr. Minetta is so vehemently anti-gun, and anti-common sense in his attempt to follow political correctness, that I believe he has put us all at great danger. If you have followed the situation regarding the training of pilots to allow them to have a firearm in the cockpit you should have no doubt that Mr. Minetta, and by accepting this, President Bush, does not really want pilots to have these firearms on the aircraft dspite the will of the US Congress, and certainly does not want the rabble of the common man to easily and safely transport "evil" handguns. My only surprise is that we haven't heard of cases of ignorant TSA official confiscating shipped firearms and treating the owner as a terrorist.

[alan]

vito:

Regarding what you wait to hear about, and the antics of the TSA hirelings, Patience my man, Patience.

You might be hearing about such antics sooner than you believed was possible.

By the way, respecting the antics of the U.S. Congress (House and Senate), concerning the REARMING of airline pilots, they used to fly armed you know, my late and much lamented MAIDEN AUNT was possessed of more balls, all by hereslf, than seems to be the case with the entirety of the male component of the above mentioned bodies.

[Walt Rauch]

Let me add some TSA experiences to the pot and also pose a question.

Last year I made 16 trips by air. I had a different experience each time. In Burbank the ticket agent said leave the locks unlocked. He added he knew this was incorrect but he added this is what the TSA at his corridor wanted and it would make both out lives easier.(It seems there are separate teams for each concourse and one team's requirements don't necessarily match the other.)

In Las Vegas, the TSA agent was angry that I left the locks unlocked, demanding they be locked and that I wait by the baggage belt until my bag went through. One , the one with the gun , did go through while the other i found had been put aside at the inspection area. I then asked him about the latter and was told, "don't worry". He then turned his back on me.

The best? one I had(it's tied with another) was when a TSA employee inspected a SIG I had in a MOGUL gun glove. Here the butt and the slide protrude. He picked up the package(by the way TSA folks are not to handle firearms) and stared into the gun muzzle for a long minute or so. He then stared into the mag well the same length of time and then went back to staring in the muzzle. I asked if he'd like the gun out and he shook his head "no".

I had a TSA supervisor tell me I could not have ammo in the same locked box with my gun. As I had but one suitcase I picked up the offending box and dropped it into the larger portion of the suitcase. She said "good" and then added "you wouldn't want someone to get ammo when they stole your gun would you?'" I could not think of a rational answer to this that would not result in me spending more time with the authorities.

I had TSA confiscate my zippo lighter fluid in my checked baggage-yup! prohibited.(they took me over to a wall mounted TSA sign that so stated-the sign faced the TSA folks; not passengers.)

I was told I can have two BIC lighters in there as well a matches and can carry a BIC in carry on as well s the Zippo. As it was slow, I had a pleasant discussion with the one TSA persona s to how long a Zippo would go without needing a refill with him being helpful by relating his own "zippo" experiences. I, of course, and noting his apparent expertise then queried him as to how various conditions of heat and dryness would affect his conclusions. He was more than happy to oblige me with answers.

Question? Anyone else experience this?

A friend of mine, going though a small airport had the local police "assist" TSA. He overheard, via a nearby LE radio, one of them running the serial numbers of his guns.(1028?) This one is new to me. Anyone else know of the airport LE running gun numbers?

[alan]

Lion In Winter:

Re your last comment, "A friend of mine, going though a small airport had the local police "assist" TSA. He overheard, via a nearby LE radio, one of them running the serial numbers of his guns.(1028?) This one is new to me. Anyone else know of the airport LE running gun numbers?"

Has that often spoken of police state arrived, or is it merely that something already here, has become more obvious to some?

[Walt Rauch]

I mention this to see if there are other instances.

[Jeff OTMG]

A couple of years ago the Indianapolis Airport Police interjected themselves into my baggage search and called in serial numbers on all three of my guns while I was speaking to a FAM. FAM, 2 Indy Airport cops, 3 members of TSA, and 2 from Northwest Airlines. It was quite a party. Everyone acted professionally EXCEPT the Indy cops. TSA's ineptitude precipitated the action, but the Indy cops were either liars, idiots, or some combination of the two.

I have run into the 'no ammo in the same bag with the gun' arguement before as well. In Evansville, In about a year and a half ago with a TSA agent. I reported the incident to the regional supervisor with he agents name and mentioned the appropriate legislation. It has been addressed. It happened again last weekend in Austin!!! Very unusual, but it was a Continental Airlines employee this time. While doing the firearms inspection she mentioned hat ammo could not be carried in the same bag. I showed her the federal regs, but told her that the airline might have a reg against it and all I ask is that she show it to me. After some checking she realized that she was wrong. Sometimes airlines have more strict regs than the federal govt. Pepper spray is one of these. Under federal regs you can transport up to a 4 oz container of pepper spray in your checked baggage, but both Northwest and Continental have company regs against it.

[alan]

Jeff OTMG:

I personally do not recall seeing any mention of this particular brand or type of ammunition on this or any other site, however respecting your financial interest therein, however much that might be, it's "gentlemenly" of you to mention it, even in passing.

By the way, just in passing, given that ones handgun(s) is/are secured in CHECKED LUGGAGE, why in blazes should ammnunition in CARRY ON LUGGAGE present any problem at all, given that nothing is present that it could be fired in.

After all, if one were intent on MISCHIEF, a quite ordinary book or magazine can quite easily be turned into a "WEAPON", if one so desired. Of course, given the "sensivity" to threats, real or imagined, of our "security stalwarts" down there at TAS, and the Ivory Towers were lurk airline executives, perhaps I should have not have made mention of the foregoing.

If it turns out that books and magazines are the next things to be banned, all for our own good, of course, I offer in advance, my humblest apologies.

[Jeff OTMG]

Alan, regarding the ammo. I first saw it and began using it in 1999 and put a post on TFL about it. In 2000 and 2001 there were a number of magazine articles about it, you will never see any advertising, and there are posts on forums around the net on it. There are opponents of the ammo because it does not perform in jello and they don't know how it works so it must not be any good. The thing is that is real life there are a bunch of dead people and it works fine. I am doing live fire demos for Tactical teams a trainer for the 75th Rangers sniper group is impressed with the product as are many operators in Iraq and Afghanistan. The 'been there done that people' like it and that is good enough for me. I am not interested in pontificating theorists. All I know is that, with one notable exception last summer, if you get shot you die. I just feel that the disclaimer is in order since this is a free site I don't want it to be viewed as advertising and it would not be honest for me to tell people how great something is without them realizing that I have a financial interest in it. If you are interested in some info I have some links and photos that I can email you that you can view for yourself. PM or email me.

They allow no part of firearms, including mags or ammo, in carryon luggage. At the Oklahoma City airport there is even a sign stating that no gun parts are allowed including choke tubes for shotguns.

Your mention of reading material brought a smile to my face. Yesterday, Friday, I was checking in for a flight and they took me in the back to the gun check station. I had a couple of particularly small guns with me and the agent mentioned that she couldn't believe that they were real guns. I then told her that there was one even smaller and I told her how they can all be taken through the security checkpoint and onto a plane. She was shocked because she realized that I was right. I told her that there were many weapons on a plane and I mentioned the rolled up magazine and metal pens. I told her that I always travel with a CD or DVD. She didn't know that they can be broken in half to make two sharp slashing weapons. I would never have mentioned that to TSA, it was only to agents that I see a few times a month and have been flying with them for years.

[30 cal slob]

I don't want to beat this horse deader than it is, but I just wanted to add this $0.02...

I travel pretty frequently with my firearms too.

Here's what I do

1) I always bring a copy of federal regs with me.

2) I always bring a copy of state regs with me - the one I'm starting from and the one I'm headed to.

3) A piece of paper on it, that says in large, clear type:

"I am declaring legal, unloaded firearms and, separately, ammunition in my locked, checked luggage".

#1 is very helpful if TSA wants to do weird things like retain the keys to a handgun case.

#2 is there just in case. I've never had a problem with #2.

#3 is very helpful so you don't have to scream at the top of your lungs in a crowded airport that you're traveling with a gun. I just hand the piece of paper to the attendant and politely ask her to read it carefully. You don't want everyone in line to know that you're packing, right? (Incidentally, I do this at Fedex/UPS too when shipping stuff to FFL's).

So far, I've never had any problems at the airports. Politeness is always returned (I know, hard to do that when you're a cranky traveler), in my experience.

Recall that ammunition has to be checked separately from firearms. What I've found is that many times, after TSA gives you the little orange card to put in your gun case, and you lock it up, there are no problems with the gun itself.

However, TSA sometimes does a second check in the bag where you have AMMO (or maybe even a cleaning kit with organic solvents). I've noticed that they will so so far as to break a lock looking at the ammo. Go figure.

Anyhoo, Browning makes a very nice hard plastic pistol transport case - for the money it can't be beat.

[Jeff OTMG]

30 cal slut, there are some serious problems with the way your airport is operating. Where do you fly?

You mention that:
'many times, after TSA gives you the little orange card to put in your gun case'
Since 9/11 I have flown on over 600 flights and this week coming up I am on 6 flights in 5 days. I have NEVER had TSA give me a 'little orange' card. In the last 20 years of flying with firearms, it has always been the airline counter personnel, even in California. In fact it is not a federal requirement that a written form be filled out. TWA use to just make an electronic note of it, no tag was ever issued. The airline has its' own rules that it follows and most have a tag to sign, but they aren't all orange (Southwest uses a white tag). From the TSA website:
* The firearm must be declared ORALLY or in writing in accordance with the air carrier's procedures (contact your air carrier for their specific procedures).

As you can see from this the TSA even says to check with the air carrier. The declaration is made to the airline, so how have you been getting 'orange cards' from TSA and where? I am going to have some FUN this week. I am already on a first name basis with some of the regional and airport heads of screening for TSA and don't have a problem adding more.

Two other things bother me about your post. The first I originally blew off as my misunderstanding, but then you followed up later with a second statement:

firearms and, separately, ammunition
Recall that ammunition has to be checked separately from firearms

Neal Know wrote in a Shotgun News column this same falsehood. This is ABSOLUTELY incorrect. I have had to fight this information at a couple of airports, most recently in Austin a couple of weeks ago with airline counter personnel, and with TSA in Evansville, In. about a year and a half ago. Ammunition CAN BE CARRIED IN THE SAME HARD CASE AS THE FIREARM.

49CFR1540.111 governing the passenger:
'(d) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of
ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm.'

and

49CFR1544.203 governing Operations:
'(g) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of
ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm.'

You are not doing the rest of us any favors by inventing more regs then there are.

There MAY be an airline rule on the airline that you travel on that has that requirement. That is not impossible. According to federal regs a passenger can carry a chemical weapon, like mace, tear gas, or pepper spray, in checked baggage, but restricts it to a 4 oz container. This was to allow LEO's to transport their spray. HOWEVER, both Northwest and Continental Airlines both prohibit chemical sprays from checked baggage regardless of size. So if you are having to pack ammo separate from the firearm you may be running into an airline reg. I can't believe that they would want passengers to check more bags, but it is possible. I have not run into this on Northwest, Continental, Continental Micronesia, Delta, Southwest, American, TWA, nor United, but those are the only carriers that I have flown in the last 5 years. Who do you fly?

[alan]

Jeff OTMG

Sounds to me as if there might be some confision between yourself and 30calslut respecting federal and airline regs.

Your question as to why the airlines would have regulations that would lead to additonal checked bags is certainly a point, but then the airlines also opposed the arming of pilots too, along with those bums at TSA Management.

As for myself, back in the 80's on a flight from Pittsburgh to Charlotte NC, I transported a handgun, declared, in checked luggage, along with what I described as "some ammunition", which was about 1500 rounds, yes the bag was heavy. Airline counter personnel said nothing about the ammunition, only asking if the pistol was loaded. I was later told, in conversation, that the transport of a handgun and ammunition, in the same checked through bag was a violation of regulations, I assumed federal, but possibly it was airline. If it was, then the counter people weren't familiar with their own regs, fortunately for me.

seems as if the problems described by some here revolved around TSA Stupidity, or bureaucratic highhandedness, neither of which should be accepted by paying passengers. Airline travel has become difficult, almost traumatic all by itself. We do not need anything that makes it worse.

[30 cal slob]

I might indeed be confusing the carrier and TSA with the orange card thingie. Anyhoo, I don't know if it's airline policy or TSA policy, but everywhere I've gone on the East Coast I've been asked to pack ammo separately from the gun. So as a practical matter, I pack them separately. Less hassle to put up with at the airport.

Interestingly, most of the time TSA has bent/broken the lock (you know, those little cheap combination locks) on my luggage (9/9 of the past trips!) to ostensibly look at the ammo or cleaning solvents (not the gun) was in N. Florida en route to or from nearby hubs like Atlanta.

I wonder if every airport handles things a little differently.

[Jeff OTMG]

> I wonder if every airport handles things a little differently.

You better believe it, that is what I am trying to fight. You have TSA officers at airports all over the country and many of them do not know the very regulations that govern their jobs. I must say that the heads of screening seem to, but that knowledge has not been transferred to the guys on the floor of the terminal. I did not have a problem in Orlando, but the screeners are on the passenger side of the counters and that is usually a good thing. For some reason when the screening equipment goes out of site behind the ticket counter, suddenly there is some super secret society with their own secret handshake running things. I am headed to Phoenix of Friday and leave Sunday, I have not been to Sky Harbor since 1987 and I am interested to see how things might have changed. Have paperwork will travel!

[alan]

Jeff OTMG wrote in part:

I wonder if every airport handles things a little differently.

You better believe it, that is what I am trying to fight. You have TSA officers at airports all over the country and many of them do not know the very regulations that govern their jobs. I must say that the heads of screening seem to, but that knowledge has not been transferred to the guys on the floor of the terminal. I did not have a problem in Orlando, but the screeners are on the passenger side of the counters and that is usually a good thing. For some reason when the screening equipment goes out of site behind the ticket counter, suddenly there is some super secret society with their own secret handshake running things.

***********

Funny thing, but that is exactly the problem in and with so many things. People anointed with that proverbial "nickles worth of authority", go hog wild exercising powers that in fact they might not actually have, while at the same time, they haven't a clue about what their authority actually is, what they are supposed to do, or how to do it.

Welcome to that NWO!!!!

[Jeff OTMG]

PHX was a DREAM to fly out of. The Southwest agent, Mac, was excited about getting to inspect the guns as he is a gun person. He mentioned the national ID proposal and gave me the link to the Gun Owners of America. He is a big Larry Pratt fan. I mentioned that I was a Life Member of the GOA and he said that I needed to sign up for the email alerts. We discussed the proper procedures and TSA, he said that in Phoenix they new the correct procedures, and they did. I am happy to fly through PHX, I can only wish that it was like that everywhere.

[Spreadfire Arms]

ive had all kinds of experiences w/ TSA screeners and ticket agents, with Continental, Southwest, and America West.

they have not given me a hard time, although i believe they don't really know what they're doing they're just going through the motions. ive travelled with a registered machine gun and they didn't seem to notice the short barrel of the MP5 or the selector switch with the "S-E-F" positions. all they care about is whether or not it is loaded or not. sometimes im not even sure if they're looking in the right hole to see if its loaded or not. then again, TSA and the ticket agents don't enforce NFA laws anyway so why should they care.

one ticket agent wanted to put the firearm declaration tag on the outside of my bag but i corrected her. she had to ask another employee who told her she was incorrect. no big deal.

in Las Vegas i had a locked case with 10 pistols. TSA agents wanted to look at them so they had me open the case. they seemed more like a bunch of guys who liked guns and just wanted to look, no trouble, no big deal. i unlocked the re-locked the case in their presence.

ive had a TSA agent look at a case i had with a full auto MP5A2 and a suppressor. he didn't give me a hard time, but at the same time i don't think he knew it was a full auto weapon, nor did he seem to think it was a real silencer either. i don't think it mattered to him anyway.

my feeling is that so long as you're nice to TSA and ticket agents, they're nice to you. i've never had any problems and i travel with full auto weapons. what they don't know won't hurt them (if i introduced Class III paperwork into the mix it would only confuse a bunch of people, although I carry a copy of the registration form with me and another copy of the form in the locked case). if they have questions i'll answer them but i don't add things to complicate things. i've never had them ask for me to unlock it and then take my weapon somewhere out of my sight. usually they just ask me to show its unloaded right there in front of everyone, which is no bueno since if there is a thief in line he's just zeroed in on my bag.

however, when i flew into Norfolk, VA, and Austin, TX, they have always had the common sense to hold my long gun case at the baggage office so it doesnt go onto the carousel and people have a shot at taking it. They also did ask me for ID and verified my tags stapled from my boarding pass to the baggage tag.

[Hugo]

What do you do for a living the requires you to fly with a suppressed MP5 spreadfire arms? Do you work for a firearms manufacturer? Can you get me a job there? :)

[Antjo]

Although I've never traveled w/ a gun by plane, I always thought it was more of a hassle. There have been many times I have wanted to take firearm w/ me when I traveled but never wanted to deal w/ trouble. I guess it's not much of a problem, should have check into it more, thanks so much for the informative post.

[MikeIsaj]

Here's the real question; On 9/11 several government agencies, FBI, CIA, NSA, FAA, INS and more, failed to do their job and protect the citizens of this country. Those private security screeners from all accounts are the only ones who did their job. The terrorists had nothing they weren't allowed by law to carry on a plane. Why then did we fire the ones who did their job and hand their responsibilities over to those who failed?

I am a corrections officer and know several people who were hired by the TSA, one as a supervisor. Let's just say they won't be missed by us, except that things run smoother here without them.

[alan]

Mike Isajewicz:

If memory serves, I believe that you might foind the answer to your question in THE PETER PRINCIPLE. Also via Incompetence is rewared by the incompetent, or Incompetence is it's own reward. Words to that effect.

Of course, I could be all wrong, re the simple observation that some people are just plain dumb, for it could turn out that there were really arcane factors involved. I don't really think so though, opting for human stupidity before human ingenuity most, if not all of the time.

[NukemJim]

"The terrorists had nothing they weren't allowed by law to carry on a plane."

Not sure if it was a law or regulation but in the 9-11 commission report they stated that the rule was no regular knife blades more than 4 inches but boxcutters were specificly forbidden by the FAA

I do not have the report in front of me so as always I could be wrong.

NukemJim

[CZ 75 BD]

on CSPAN-2 right now discussing the Patriot Act.

[Abby]

I'll jump in on this dead horse, too.

First, I second a positive experience flying Delta out of Tampa, FL. They were quick and professional and didn't treat us like criminals.

I'm a big fan, though, of calling my airline before traveling. I did it to ensure I could:

A) transport two rifles in one double-rifle case. Some airlines seem to care how many guns are in a case, or that each person only have one gun case. My husband and I were traveling together, and it certainly made more sense to buy ONE airline-ready case than to buy TWO, but it also made sense to check first.

B) pack ammunition in the same firearm case. And I could. But I thought I'd ask, since if the airline cared that much, I'd have been happy to put it in a locked pistol case in my suitcase.

One of the things I've learned in my years of dealing with the federal government is that you can be right, and you can still be screwed. :cuss: I didn't want anything interfering with getting back home for deer season, so we double-checked to ensure we'd be ready to jump through any airline-imposed hoops.

The stupidity level is high, but I find that a call-ahead lets you know what to be prepared for (or if there's going to be a really dumb argument that you need to have paperwork and phone numbers ready for). :rolleyes:

[billwiese]

For the past 5 years, once or twice a year, I fly up to either Pendleton, OR (via Portland) or Boise, ID. I fly on Alaska & its sister line, Horizon Air. This is from SFO or San Jose airport.

Alaska & Horizon do fly lots of hunters up in the Pacific Northwest, so perhaps I am lucky. Each time, I transport several (declared) firearms in a Starlight case, with some (declared) ammo in my baggage. Usu there are one maybe two 'assault weapons' (by Calif's definition) and hicap magazines involved.

I've never had any real problems with Alaska Air employees, and never w/TSA.

One Alaska Air counter girl asked me to leave the case unlocked for TSA inspection. I refused, even after she said "we do this all the time". I insisted that there could be violations of state law (assault weapons laws) and that TSA could be the only one to unlock, examine, and relock.

When I put the red-orange 'Firearms Declared' card in my case, I do NOT unlock the case but slightly unlatch it and slide it through a small gap. [This is primarily to be compliant with CA's assault weapons laws, not TSA/FAA etc law.]

(I also ask for a separate tag for ammo carried in my suitcase. Even though this may not be legally required, I'd hate to have ammo found in my bag without it esp if it got separated from accompanying my rifle case with its red card.)

While techincally perhaps not aligned with all the rules, I will follow TSA's play-by-play. So the counter girl sends my locked rifle case down, along with a sealed envelope with padlock combinations, addressed "For TSA only".

The real issue is, at your destination or return airport, pick up your luggage ASAP.... Even if you ask specifically for your rifle case to be held at the luggage center for pickup with ID required, sometimes it doesn't happen and it just ends up on the conveyor. When yout get off your plane, don't stop to socialize, get a Coke, go to the restroom, etc. Sometimes smaller planes can have their luggage unloaded and to the luggage conveyor just about the time passengers get off the plane and down the concourse. You don't want your rifles circling the luggage carousel for 15 minutes while Columbian luggage thieves are scouting it for theft...

I've never had grief w/TSA folks. At Boise & Pendleton they handle the oversize luggage screening themselves with you present (as opposed to in the bowels of a large airport) and are very friendly - some are ex-mil guys, it seems, and there is a bit of gun talk ;)

Because I do live in California, I do carry my AW registration paperwork just in case. And I do mail a self-addressed sealed letter of intent to myself a few days before trip, stating the guns I am bringing and the number of hi-cap magazines I am travelling with -- just in case there were any state/local questions about importation of assault weapons or hicaps. Paranoid, but perhaps worth it - we'll see.

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

[Yugiho]

I read the entire thread and am still confused by one issue.

I know the hard sided case which contains the firearm has to be locked with the key in my possession. But what about the suitcase? Does the suitcase holding the hard sided case have to be locked with another key in my possession?

[cgraham]

What passes for a TSA-approved hard sided gun case? It appears from this thread that plastic cases are OK: but there is cheap plastic and tuff stuff. (Obviously the case has to be lockable.)

Do TSA approved locks have any role in flying with firearms?
My take is that they do not, because thr TSA is not supposed to have access to your firearms, once checked in. But if you have ammo in another checked bag, it should be locked, but TSA often forces open?

C

[obiwan1]

I don't use TSA locks on my bags. I let the ticket agent know that I'll hang around for a few minutes in case i'm needed. If I get to take the bag to TSA myself I'll let the TSA agent know that there's a gun inside. I don't trust TSA locks. Probably every baggage handler has a master key (as if they didn't for my hard side Samsonite drug smuggler special). :D I always carry a copy of the law with me. Sometimes I take a copy of TSA regs if the current version makes sense according to the law. :evil:

[Slugless]

I'm with Yugiho. :confused:

If you have a handgun in a locked case inside a regular suitcase ("checked baggage"), can you lock the regular suitcase with a non-TSA lock?

I thought you couldn't. Now I'm reading that you can if you hang around the TSA checking area until they say it's cool.


For extra credit - what if you're changing planes? Does that make a difference? I imagine there's no difference but the question of plane changes came up a few days ago.

Thanks.

[TexasRifleman]

If you have a handgun in a locked case inside a regular suitcase ("checked baggage"), can you lock the regular suitcase with a non-TSA lock?

Sure. The regs say the firearm itself has to be locked up, not the case that case goes in. If you shipped a rifle without another case then you'd not use a TSA lock, but if you use a handgun case inside a regular suitcase that suitcase can have a TSA lock as long as the handgun case itself does not.

[GHF]

For extra credit - what if you're changing planes? Does that make a difference? I imagine there's no difference but the question of plane changes came up a few days ago.

If the luggage is passed between airlines without your involvement, your traveling companion is a non-issue.

If you change and have to recheck your luggage with Airline B, see below:

http://www.anjrpc.org/DefendingYourRights/us%20letter.pdf

U. S. Department of Justice
Office of Legislative Affairs
Office of the Assistant Attorney General
Washington, D.C. 20530
February 18, 2005


The Honorable Don Young
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515


Dear Congressman Young:

Thank you for your letter, dated June 18, 2003, to Admiral James M. Loy, then- Administrator of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), concerning the applicability of 18 U.S.C. section 926A to persons at airports in New York State who are taking flights to destinations outside of New York. Because section 926A is a provision of the Gun Control Act (GCA), which the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) enforces, TSA forwarded your letter to the Department of Justice for response. We apologize for the delay in responding.

In your letter you explained that local police officers in New York have threatened several individuals at John F. Kennedy International Airport and Albany International Airport with arrest for firearms possession based on strict State laws, and that in at least one case the firearms were confiscated. You explained that: (1) the people carrying the firearms were not prohibited from possessing firearms under Federal law, (2) the people had apparently traveled directly, without any interruption in the transportation, to the airports from other States where they legally could possess firearms, (3) their firearms and ammunition were secured in accordance with all applicable regulations for airline travel, and (4) they were flying to other States or countries where they could legally possess firearms.

You then asked if TSA agrees that section 926A enables these travelers to possess the firearms legally in the New York airports and if so, if TSA would inform local police and prosecutors about this provision of the GCA. We appreciate your bringing this issue to our attention. The Department of Justice agrees that the provisions of section 926A apply to the situation set forth above assuming: (1) the person is traveling from somewhere he lawfully may possess and carry a firearm; (2) en route to the airport the firearm is unloaded and not accessible from the passenger compartment of his car; (3) the person transports the firearm directly from his vehicle to the airline check-in desk without any interuption in the transportation; and (4) while carrying the firearm to the check-in desk it is unloaded and in a locked container. This interpretation reflects the apparent congressional intent in enacting this provision, while allowing State and local law enforcement to continue to enforce their firearms laws aggressively to promote public safety. We will inform the applicable law enforcement authorities of our interpretation of section 926A.

We trust this information responds to your inquiry. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact this office.

Sincerely,





William E. Moschella
Assistant Attorney General

Bottom line switching modes of transportation on a trip - car to plane to different airline plane to car - is covered as if you are in your car and do not stop for anything but gas and chow.

[AirForceShooter]

I'm flying out of Tampa to Vegas soon.
I'm a newly diagonsed diabetic. I figure TSA will freak when I bring my needles and stuff as carry on.
I checked the regs and supposedly I can do it.
No problem to check my gun through though. Weird
I'd rather drive.

AFS

[Yugiho]

After rereading this thread as well as other threads on this subject at other forums, I've come to the conclusion that non-TSA locks should be used in hard gun case as well as the suitcase that holds it.

According to the law, I must be present if TSA wants to inspect the locked suitcase. So there's no need for any TSA approved locks. Also, the law states that only the passenger may have the key or combination.

[billwiese]

I have little worry about aspects of the law of which gov't agency gets to look when and when something is unlocked due to their direction. I have zero fear of prosecution for this.

That's their interagency fight, TSA vs FAA - if any gov't agency at the airport wants to see in the case and it can help me get my flight on time, they'll get the key as long as it comes back to me (or combo). In some airports you just can't go into the bowels, and there's no side area to meet w/TSA to unlock cases, etc. - and it takes too long to explain the laws to the airline gate folks and TSA staff.

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

[alan]

As I haven't flown with arms since some time in the 1980's I do not recall exactly what year it was, this discussion is sort of "academic" however I will make or point out two things.

When last I flew with arms, it was a pistol, I declared it, doing up a form as I recall, and put it in checked luggage, along with about 2000 rounds of ammunition, 9mm and 45 ACP. I was latertold that such transit was "illegal", but at the time, nobody asked or said much about ammuinition. One counter person offered that my suitcase was "heavy". I allowed that it was, and that was that.

On the otrher hand, in May, 2007, we flew (my wife and I) from Pittsburgh to New Bern, North Carolina for a couple of weeks at the beach. In my carry on bag, I had some prescription medications I take, a can of shaving cream, a Shick Injector Razor I've had for 50 plus years ands a partial "clip" of blades. Flying out of Pittsburgh, there were no problems of any kind. Flying back to Pittsburgh, from New Bern, the TSA Hitler declared that I had "contraband" in my bag, that partial "clip" of injector blades, he spoke in a loud voice, and confiscated, spelled STOLE my razor blades.

In the course of some correspondence with the minions of TSA, I was told that essentially one traveled on the sufference of the TSA clown that officiated at "security". Between the antics of these bureaucratic clowns and airline idiocy, when I do trravel these days, I make all reasonable efforts to avoid flying, so bad spelled horrific has air travel become.

[publiuss]

Beech Bonanza

[Aguila Blanca]

Deleted

[Aguila Blanca]

After rereading this thread as well as other threads on this subject at other forums, I've come to the conclusion that non-TSA locks should be used in hard gun case as well as the suitcase that holds it.

According to the law, I must be present if TSA wants to inspect the locked suitcase. So there's no need for any TSA approved locks. Also, the law states that only the passenger may have the key or combination.
Unless I have misunderstood the several places this is covered in the CFR, you are incorrect. The CFR requires that you retain the keys or combination to the locked gun case. Nothing requires that the outer suitcase even be locked.

[Axctal]

Just a thought ...
How about a 911 call stating that "those screeners are forcing me to commit a federal felony ... please send marshalls and arrest them"

[Sebastian the Ibis]

After going through one security checkpoint where the screeners had to take my disposable cameras out of their original packaging, the next checkpoint had to x-ray them individually since they were not in their original packaging. Then the airline put me on a bus to take me to my plane, and the bus had a tool box in it with a claw hammer, a box cutter, a couple of screwdrivers etc. You really cannot make up how maddeningly ineffective and stupid this whole system is.

[alan]

Spreadfire seems to have made a most interesting point re dealing with "government agents".

Do not answer questions that haven't been asked.